Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 89 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2641 of 3018 Old 04-06-2019, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
No way am I plugging in extremely low price hdmi cables into high ticket items.


exactly. Luckily I learned my lesson with monoprice & emotiva cables on relatively cheaper stuff.

Blue Jeans and Pro Audio LA hit the sweet spot for me
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post #2642 of 3018 Old 04-06-2019, 08:22 AM
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Lesson learned! The only reason I went with the Monoprice cables is I wanted short (3ft.) high-speed certified ones to replace the longer cables I originally was using to clean up the wiring. Odd thing is, the HDMI outputs from the source components (Oppo UDP-203, AppleTV 4K, Roku Ultra, and DVDFab A1 media player) were an easy fit and are functioning fine. Only on the MP-50 was the fit snug. There was no indication that any damage to the pins was taking place and the plugs went in fully.
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post #2643 of 3018 Old 04-06-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
I’m sure you’re right. There was some resistance when I inserted them, but they almost clicked into place. After inserting them into HDMI 1-4 and switching the MD-50 on I did realize they probably damaged the internal pins. Fortunately HDMI 5-8 we’re still unused so I immediately replaced those cables with the original longer ones and reconfigured to those inputs. Since I only have four video sources I’m good to go but hate having four unusable inputs. To me it makes sense to wait fo the new HDMI board to come out before I send the unit to Lyngdorf for repair.
Apparently, you’ve had a similar experience.
Luckily I only damaged one of my HDMI connectors...lesson learned only Blue Jeans HDMI cables for me from now on.
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post #2644 of 3018 Old 04-07-2019, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Sinden View Post

Every other room correction I’m aware of has a target curve that the room correction will try to make your speakers match. This means that the sound of your speakers will be changed. This isn’t something RoomPerfect does because its first “Focus” reading is intended to capture the sound of your speakers.
I don't think this is correct. The RoomPerfect mic is not directional. The focus readings simply are reading the room at the focus positions. Multiple measurements must be used to determine the power response. Dirac has done the same thing for quite some time now. The curve you see when you enter the curve editor is the power response.
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The other thing I think RoomPerfect does that’s unique is measuring your subs and speakers as one. The end result is a seamless blend between speakers and subs.
This is provided you have entered the distances properly as well accounted for active speaker/subwoofer DSP delays (adjusting distances accordingly). This aspect is poorly documented by Lyngdorf. Actually, not documented anywhere in the MP-50 documentation.

You have the luxury of installing systems with known quanitites (M&K or LA). I'd love to see how you'd fare without any info from the manufacturers.
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post #2645 of 3018 Old 04-07-2019, 05:13 AM
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Hi Mark

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree the Lyngdorf manuals aren’t great and that’s why I’m trying to explain what’s different about their products.

If you set up a system with RoomPerfect in the same way you do with Audyssey, Dirac or Trinnov you will get dreadful results.

With RoomPerfect the first Focus reading has to be taken firing the mic directly towards the speakers. Then the other readings are taken across the whole height, width and length of the room with the mic firing in different directions.

Lyngdorf used to measure systems in a similar way to the other correction systems that have since been developed. They stopped doing it this way as they found is changed the way the loudspeakers sounded. As RoomPerfect was developed for hifi systems, obviously people weren’t happy with this.

This is why, the first reading is intended to capture the characteristics of the speaker. This creates the target that the system tries to reproduce.

I can’t see how any of the other systems can preserve the sound of the speakers as they don’t know how they should sound.

RoomPerfect doesn’t estimate the distances to the speakers so ideally you need a laser guide. When active subs are being used, you do need to know the delay you should add because of the DSP in the sub. I don’t think most sub makers have this in their manuals and it is something you need to know.

I know what these are for MK’s but other than that, there is no knowledge that I have of their products that you need to set up RoomPerfect.

I’m now starting to visit customers’ homes and shops with Lyngdorf stereo and surround products and obviously this means I’m coming across all types of speakers. The only problem I have had so far is not knowing the delay created by the subs amplifier, which I estimate if its not available on the manufacturers website, aside from that its very quick and reliable.

Whats the support for Lyngdorf like in the USA?
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post #2646 of 3018 Old 04-07-2019, 07:30 AM
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What I don't get is why the first (or some other) measurement isn't taken near field to really nail the "speaker's signature" without room influence.
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post #2647 of 3018 Old 04-08-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
What I don't get is why the first (or some other) measurement isn't taken near field to really nail the "speaker's signature" without room influence.
I think RP does not attempt to directly measure the speaker "signature" (and what is that, the deviation from a perfect impulse in free air?) because it cannot do that in a normal room;-) But I wonder how that information would even be useful... Some of the newer RC systems, from Linn and Devialet, have a library of measurements for individual speakers. I don't know exactly what they measure and how, but then this is done at the factory, I assume ideally in an anechoic chamber/outdoors or at least in very controlled settings... But when I see how much a room affects both amplitude and phase at the MLP, I wonder how useful such specific speaker measurements would be in the context of RC?

Lyngdorf simply says this in their old RP manual:
"The measurement at the listening position holds information about the listener’s access to the sound-field while the room positions hold information about the 3-dimensional sound-field in the entire listening room."
The "listener's access to the sound-field" is the plain old amplitude response as captured by the first measurement, according to the AES-papers I've read.
And furthermore: RoomPerfectTM automatically identifies the optimal target curve from the information in the measurements and everything is thereafter controlled by the guided setup in the menu system.
So it does not attempt to apply a "one size fits all" target curve, which is probably a good thing, but that is still quite different from "preserving the sound of the speakers", whatever that means :-)
I think, based on the literature I have access to, that the design goal of RP was to make the speaker sound similar to how it would sound in a very specific "ideal room" with a specific room gain etc, but even that is clearly a very ambitious task. And what else could "preserving the sound" mean? We don't want the response we get from our speakers outdoors, just a hunch :-)

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post #2648 of 3018 Old 04-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Sinden View Post
Every other room correction I’m aware of has a target curve that the room correction will try to make your speakers match. This means that the sound of your speakers will be changed.

This isn’t something RoomPerfect does because its first “Focus” reading is intended to capture the sound of your speakers. Once the additional measurements taken throughout all of the room, not just over the seating area, have been taken, your speakers should sound unchanged while the errors of the room have been removed.
Posted this a couple years back in this thread:
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A good room correction system should allow users to tweak the target curve to their preference. However, first impressions matter, so it is helpful to start off with a default target curve that sounds good right out of the box, even before user adjustment. To that end, several room correction designers (Harman, Dirac, Lyngdorf) have done research into finding a good default curve. Harman, for example, compared several room correction products and found that perceived flat response was preferred over measured flat response. Likewise, Dirac has a default target curve that tilts 5dB down from 20Hz to 20kHz.

Lyngdorf wanted a default curve that sounded natural to listeners and looked into what "natural" might mean, documenting the research in two papers (see previous post). The papers concluded with an explanation of why it is important to measure around the room to get additional frequency response information:

"The additional information is also used to automatically calculate a target function, which suits the loudspeaker actually used, which opens up the possibility of a fully automatic room correction system, where no user interaction is needed. This system also provides a more natural timbre to room correction systems by recognizing the fact that part of the influence of a room is perceived to be natural and should not be removed by a room correction system."

Based on the above, "natural" turned out to be different for each loudspeaker and room. Removing some of the room's influences, like the naturally occurring hump in the low frequencies, sounded unnatural to listeners. Which meant that a natural sounding target curve was a matter of tracing a line through the measured frequency response of YOUR speaker in YOUR room and conforming the peaks & dips to this line:



Your speakers still end up sounding like your speakers, since the default target curve was based on their frequency response, but the room's unwanted contributions (peaks & dips) are removed (as much as possible). Now, this doesn't make it the best room correction in all of Christendom, but it does explain why the results are often described as natural.

Sanjay
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post #2649 of 3018 Old 04-08-2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Sinden View Post
With RoomPerfect the first Focus reading has to be taken firing the mic directly towards the speakers.....

Please stop repeating incorrect information, which you yourself said on AVForums you have no technical grasp of.

As pointed out, you cannot capture the direct response of a speaker in a room unless the mic very close to it.



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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
What I don't get is why the first (or some other) measurement isn't taken near field to really nail the "speaker's signature" without room influence.

Same here.

My lowly Harman Kardon 630 receiver did exactly that.



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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
I think RP does not attempt to directly measure the speaker "signature" (and what is that, the deviation from a perfect impulse in free air?) because it cannot do that in a normal room;-) But I wonder how that information would even be useful...

Many people want speakers with flat response for the utmost neutrality, which may not have been achieved with their speakers for cost reasons (more complex XO circuitry) and/or insufficient design skills.
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post #2650 of 3018 Old 04-08-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by arisholm View Post
Some of the newer RC systems, from Linn and Devialet, have a library of measurements for individual speakers.
I looked into Devialet's system via whitepapers because Devialet and they had my speakers in their library (VA Haydns).

The benefits they touted were more extended bass (improved from 41Hz to 27Hz), woofer excursion protection and maybe a sort of time-alignment for the drivers. Not really RC. Here's the page: https://www.devialet.com/en-fi/exper...aydn-grand-se/
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post #2651 of 3018 Old 04-09-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I looked into Devialet's system via whitepapers because Devialet and they had my speakers in their library (VA Haydns).

The benefits they touted were more extended bass (improved from 41Hz to 27Hz), woofer excursion protection and maybe a sort of time-alignment for the drivers. Not really RC. Here's the page: https://www.devialet.com/en-fi/exper...aydn-grand-se/
OK yes I agree that this is not really RC but rather speaker tweaking. I looked at that "before and after sound pressure" curve in your link... wow just like the recording... but I wonder how it would look like if they had measured this at the MLP in a room:-)

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post #2652 of 3018 Old 04-09-2019, 10:10 AM
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As pointed out, you cannot capture the direct response of a speaker in a room unless the mic very close to it.
And even near-field measurements are not without compromise, as illustrated quite well here: https://klippel.de/know-how/measurem...asurement.html
PS: and look at all the paper references, not a DIY activity ;-)

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post #2653 of 3018 Old 04-09-2019, 02:28 PM
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OK yes I agree that this is not really RC but rather speaker tweaking. I looked at that "before and after sound pressure" curve in your link... wow just like the recording... but I wonder how it would look like if they had measured this at the MLP in a room:-)
Some of the befores, I cannot fathom how anyone would build such a thing.

If you look at the Thiel cs1.6 for example, it's not too bad, relatively speaking. The Totem Arro doesn't look too good.

But the Mangers! They needed hardly any correction at all.

I could spend all day on there but sometimes the FR image doesn't load ;-) And you can see why some speakers cost a lot - Devialet does almost nothing for them.
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post #2654 of 3018 Old 04-10-2019, 01:26 AM
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This is from the Lyngdorf factory, yesterday...............

"RP does not have a target curve. The "target" is calculated from the power response in the room and partly from the direct sound which gets an increasing weight towards higher frequencies."
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post #2655 of 3018 Old 04-10-2019, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Sinden View Post
This is from the Lyngdorf factory, yesterday...............



"RP does not have a target curve. The "target" is calculated from the power response in the room and partly from the direct sound which gets an increasing weight towards higher frequencies."
That is what Sanjay reposted.
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post #2656 of 3018 Old 04-10-2019, 02:46 AM
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This is from the Lyngdorf factory, yesterday...............

"RP does not have a target curve. The "target" is calculated from the power response in the room and partly from the direct sound which gets an increasing weight towards higher frequencies."
I think we are mainly discussing semantics of "target curve".
RP tries to estimate the room gain and correct low frequencies according to the following, stated in several of the RP papers at AES 2007:
"Room gain varies from room to room, and this variation should not be preserved. If a listening room has very low absorption at low frequencies relative to higher frequencies, i.e. a very high room gain, then the room correction should attenuate the level at low frequencies resulting in a lower effective room gain.
It has been decided to aim for a resulting room gain equal to the room gain in a listening room, which conforms to the IEC 268-13 standard [32]. The IEC 268-13 standard acoustically describes an “average living room”. The reverberation time, T60 , is approximately 0.4 seconds at mid and high frequencies.
It follows from this, that listening rooms with a room gain higher than an IEC 268-13 standard listening room should have the low frequencies attenuated, while rooms with at lower room gain than the IEC 268-13 standard listening room should result in an increased level of low frequencies. This is obtained by implementing the room gain of an IEC 268-13 standard listening room as part of the target curve of the room correction system. "
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post #2657 of 3018 Old 04-16-2019, 12:25 PM
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For Roon users, the MP-50 will be an endpoint. They're just waiting for the certification from Roon.
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post #2658 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 03:00 PM
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The MP-50 is interesting, however this message is a bit confusing:
http://lyngdorf.com/news-hdmi-upgrade-program/
Are all new batches retained at the factory or are they shipping with this flaw?
If not, why is the info still present on their website?
I know that a few MP-50 exists out there but they are hard to come about.

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post #2659 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Extreman View Post
The MP-50 is interesting, however this message is a bit confusing:
http://lyngdorf.com/news-hdmi-upgrade-program/
Are all new batches retained at the factory or are they shipping with this flaw?
If not, why is the info still present on their website?
I know that a few MP-50 exists out there but they are hard to come about.
They are explaining why the new boards are delayed.

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Yes, but there is no timeline to be trusted.
I have a possibility of attending a demo of this unit after Easter, however I am not sure it is worth the hassle of bringing it over to my local dealer if it is the older version.
I would primarily test presence of any HDMI lock-on issues that were driving me nuts on my previous AP’s (Cary Cinema 11a and Classe Sigma SSP MKII). Those units were riddled with flaws and I am sick and tired of being a involuntary beta-tester for high end AP’s. Not only is it tiresome but it is extremely time consuming to troubleshoot. I guess this rules out Emotiva but I am still following the HTP-1, ATI and Bryston units closely.

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post #2661 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 04:28 PM
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With full featured hdmi 2.1 around the corner, one wonders if they have waited so long that they have missed the boat (once again).
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post #2662 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 08:57 PM
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What exactly is the limitation imposed by 18 Gbps?

Could you still play 4k HDR but just not up to 4:4:4 and whatever fps?

If it can't match the source material, will it not play at all or stutter, or just display it at less than full res/framerate?

Or can you define the MP-50 setup parameters to its max display capabilities?

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post #2663 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Extreman View Post
Yes, but there is no timeline to be trusted.
I have a possibility of attending a demo of this unit after Easter, however I am not sure it is worth the hassle of bringing it over to my local dealer if it is the older version.
I would primarily test presence of any HDMI lock-on issues that were driving me nuts on my previous AP’s (Cary Cinema 11a and Classe Sigma SSP MKII). Those units were riddled with flaws and I am sick and tired of being a involuntary beta-tester for high end AP’s. Not only is it tiresome but it is extremely time consuming to troubleshoot. I guess this rules out Emotiva but I am still following the HTP-1, ATI and Bryston units closely.
Sounds like you might want to go with a mass market unit. These boutique processors will always be behind the major players in HDMI reliability and updates.

I haven't had any HDMI issues. But then again, I wouldn't care if I did as my number one priority is sound quality.

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post #2664 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
What exactly is the limitation imposed by 18 Gbps?

Could you still play 4k HDR but just not up to 4:4:4 and whatever fps?

If it can't match the source material, will it not play at all or stutter, or just display it at less than full res/framerate?

Or can you define the MP-50 setup parameters to its max display capabilities?
For me on a Sony 5000 projector, I do not need anything beyond 18 gbps at least for the foreseeable future. 10.2 gbps was an obvious and unfortunate oversight. 18 gbps should have been implemented from the start. 18 gbps was fairly well established when the MP and MX came out. As you are aware, lots of 4k disc menus require 60hz at a designated color space for the UHD format. This can cause major issues with a 10.2 chipset. Relative to the movies themselves, 4k 60 hz 4:4:4: is also not possible at 10.2. Not the end of the world if you carefully choose your streamers that have options and excell 24 hz for both menus and the actual movie (Nvidia Shield/ATV 4K). Try streaming on some of the 4k disc players and problems arise, as I’m sure you know.

For others that use a fixed display, and wish to use hdmi 2.1’s other advanced features such as future 8k display compatibility. Some basic features of VRR can be implemented with 18 gbps chipsets, to allow games at VRR 4k at lower hz rates. However, future gaming compatibility for future VRR Freesync 2 compatible next gen consoles (PS5/Xbox 2) at 4k 120 hz 4:4:4 and future dynamic HDR formats, will need full 2.1 with 48 gbps implementation. QMS and ALLM may be doable with 18 gbps, but it will be much more prominent with the full 2.1 spec met. Full 2.1 bandwidth becomes very useful and brings headroom, usability and a sense of future proofing that is rarely seen today with techology moving so fast.

2.1 is certainly better to have than not have for gamers, or for those with an 8k flat display or 8k projector in their not too distant future.

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post #2665 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 11:34 PM
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If one only cares about 2160p24/25/30 content in HDR 10.2Gbps is enough. 18Gbps is necessary for 2160p50/60 HDR. There is actually quite a wealth of 2160p60 HDR content on YouTube. Live events such as Sports in 4k are 2160p60 HLG. The Golf majors are presented in 4k. I would love to see the same for tennis, NBA finals, NHL finals, World Series, and the Superbowl. 2020 may be the year we get all of these. But we are already get some now in 2019.

https://hdguru.com/directv-to-presen...n-4k-with-hdr/

I got my MP-50 back just over a week ago. When emailing [email protected] regarding the HDMI upgrade (several times prior to sending the unit in) they didn't even respond. They would answer other questions but it was as if I didn't even mention the HDMI upgrade. Not a good sign for those desiring it. I am satisfied with the Oppo-203 & HDFury Vertex splitting audio off to the MP-50.
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post #2666 of 3018 Old 04-17-2019, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
10.2 gbps was an obvious and unfortunate oversight. 18 gbps should have been implemented from the start. 18 gbps was fairly well established when the MP and MX came out.
Both the MX160 and MP-50 are direct descendants of the SL P200 (released in 2015). The P200 and MX160 video capabilities are identical AFAIK. The MP-50 is likely a board from the same family & vendor.
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Advanced HDMI Switching
The Model P200 features advanced HDMI switching capabilities and can handle up to five separate 4K video streams simultaneously, allowing routing from any HDMI input to any output with unique On Screen Display for each stream. It can also show four inputs on one screen (tiling), or split one input to be shown on four screens as one coherent video-wall.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...txmLspRd3Eo.99
When they build firmware the compiler spits out versions for all three platforms. New HDMI hardware complicates the current efficiency of scale they enjoy. I'm really hoping the delay is to be forward thinking and actually deploy 48Gbps. I definitely wouldn't bet on it though.
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post #2667 of 3018 Old 04-18-2019, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Sounds like you might want to go with a mass market unit. These boutique processors will always be behind the major players in HDMI reliability and updates.

I haven't had any HDMI issues. But then again, I wouldn't care if I did as my number one priority is sound quality.
So, having a long lasting high pitch lock-on noise that almost kill your high end speakers and guests that jumps in their seats every time you retain playback are so minor that it isn’t even worth mentioning?

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post #2668 of 3018 Old 04-18-2019, 06:11 AM
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So, having a long lasting high pitch lock-on noise that almost kill your high end speakers and guests that jumps in their seats every time you retain playback are so minor that it isn’t even worth mentioning?
No, that high pitch noise would drive me nuts, and I would be concerned with my speakers as well. If you don’t like bugs and glitches, stay clear of the Emotiva, at least for quite some time. The MP/MX processors are different beasts from the Storm/Bryston. If, I were buying new at this point, and I wasn’t bypassing the processor for video, I would go 18 gbps. That may mean waiting a bit longer to get additional news from Lyngdorf/McIntosh. There are work arounds, as Marc pointed out. These processors sound excellent and Room Perfect, once you experience it, is hard to pass up though.
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post #2669 of 3018 Old 04-18-2019, 09:43 AM
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So, having a long lasting high pitch lock-on noise that almost kill your high end speakers and guests that jumps in their seats every time you retain playback are so minor that it isn’t even worth mentioning?
Yes, because you totally said that was happening in your original post

What you said was:
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Originally Posted by Extreman View Post
...I would primarily test presence of any HDMI lock-on issues that were driving me nuts on my previous AP’s (Cary Cinema 11a and Classe Sigma SSP MKII). Those units were riddled with flaws and I am sick and tired of being a involuntary beta-tester for high end AP’s. Not only is it tiresome but it is extremely time consuming to troubleshoot...
So yea, you are "sick and tired" of HDMI issues. My suggestion is still appropriate, if you want 99% bug free HDMI with all the latest updates, go with Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, etc.

Lyngdorf MP-50 | Yamaha MX-A5200 | Ascend Sierra Towers | Ascend Sierra Horizon | Ascend Sierra Lunas | Ascend HTM-200SE | SVS SB-13 x4

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post #2670 of 3018 Old 04-18-2019, 10:06 AM
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The MP/MX processors are different beasts from the Storm/Bryston.

Not sure what you mean by different beasts? Better, worse, different EQ, etc?


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