Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 92 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2731 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Thanks Marc. Yes, I set it up via the OSD. I tried to connect to my network, as well as directly to my laptop (with a switch in-between), but it didn't seem like it wanted to work. I'll have to try it again.




Dave
If you are connecting directly to your laptop there won't be DHCP assigning IP addresses. You will have to set them manually. Something like this.

Laptop: 192.168.1.1 255.255.255.0
MP-50: 192.168.1.2 255.255.255.0

When you connect to your home network you must check the MP-50 to see what IP address was assigned. An issue I have seen commonly is that folks accidentally connect to the HDBaseT port. I just did it again when I reorganized my rack. Make sure you are connecting to LAN A.

The unit is very solid running 3.0.9. Most problems I run into are the result of my own user error.
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post #2732 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 02:44 PM
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Compared to your CB with or w/o Dirac?

It all depends on your subwoofer placement. Please provide more details about your room & setup.
Hi! I will have two B&W Db1D. I can only have the two subwoofer by my frontspeakers. One to the right of my left frontspeaker and one to left of my right frontspeaker. My front row are from Dali Epicon6 and Dali Epiconvoc and my surround speakers will be from Dali Rubiconlcr 4 pieces. My livingroom is 25sqm but its open to another room.
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post #2733 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 03:07 PM
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Hi! I will have two B&W Db1D. I can only have the two subwoofer by my frontspeakers. One to the right of my left frontspeaker and one to left of my right frontspeaker. My front row are from Dali Epicon6 and Dali Epiconvoc and my surround speakers will be from Dali Rubiconlcr 4 pieces. My livingroom is 25sqm but its open to another room.
That should work well with RoomPerfect. Place the subwoofers as close to the wall(s) as possible. Corners are best with RoomPerfect, unlike many other approaches. Configure the subs as L & R auxiliary subs and do not assign an LFE.

You should use a laser tape measure to the distances to speakers. For the subs measure to the back wall behind the sub. Check the literature or contact B&W directly to find out the latency of the plate amp. If it is over 1ms you will need to convert to distance and add to the measurement.
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post #2734 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Compared to your CB with or w/o Dirac?

It all depends on your subwoofer placement. Please provide more details about your room & setup.
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That should work well with RoomPerfect. Place the subwoofers as close to the wall(s) as possible. Corners are best with RoomPerfect, unlike many other approaches. Configure the subs as L & R auxiliary subs and do not assign an LFE.

You should use a laser tape measure to the distances to speakers. For the subs measure to the back wall behind the sub. Check the literature or contact B&W directly to find out the latency of the plate amp. If it is over 1ms you will need to convert to distance and add to the measurement.
I cant have them close to the walls either. How will it work with the Lfechannel? Will i get the Lfechannel from both L & R auxiliary subs and will there be bass management with trimsettings and so on, like you get when you have it from the Lfeoutput. It doesn't say very clear in the manual i think. I should also say i will almost watch movies and listen to music some times. I want of course get a nice sound from music also but the most important is the soundquality for movies. Unfortunately i haven't got answer about the latency of B&W subs
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post #2735 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Joey_ View Post
I want of course get a nice sound from music also but the most important is the soundquality for movies.
Being inflexible in regards to subwoofer placement is not a good recipe for SQ. This is regardless of the Room EQ.

Do you have a UMIK and Room EQ Wizard?
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post #2736 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 03:57 PM
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Being inflexible in regards to subwoofer placement is not a good recipe for SQ. This is regardless of the Room EQ.

Do you have a UMIK and Room EQ Wizard?
Well i dont live alone so i dont have a choice on that one. No i dont have an Umik or rew. So what do you say? How does it works with the Lfechannel? I think the manual to the mp-50 is very bad. It doesn't say very much about that or bass management

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post #2737 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 07:51 PM
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Well i dont live alone so i dont have a choice on that one. No i dont have an Umik or rew. So what do you say? How does it works with the Lfechannel? I think the manual to the mp-50 is very bad. It doesn't say very much about that or bass management
Can you post a picture of your front stage? How far from the walls are the speakers? Subs? I think the MP-50 can be a big waste of money if you do not understand the way it optimally operates and place your speakers accordingly. If you are going to let your roommate set the system up you are better off buying a NAD T758 or T777 v3 (Dirac Live), Denon AVR-X4500 or Marantz AV7705 (Audyssey XT-32) and investing the savings. Sorry to be harsh. JMHO

http://lyngdorf.com.linux159.unoeuro...om-correction/
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post #2738 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 07:59 PM
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Will i get the Lfechannel from both L & R auxiliary subs and will there be bass management with trimsettings and so on, like you get when you have it from the Lfeoutput. It doesn't say very clear in the manual i think.
Yes, both subs will receive LFE and bass management. Are you looking at the old paper manual or the updated PDF downloaded from: http://lyngdorf.com/mp-50/ ?
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I think the manual to the mp-50 is very bad. It doesn't say very much about that or bass management
I agree regarding the poor manual. Except that I find that Bass Management is the only section that they got right.

Here is a much better version of the manual written by McIntosh:
https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/-/media...x160om-02.ashx
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post #2739 of 3013 Old 05-01-2019, 11:16 PM
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Configure the subs as L & R auxiliary subs and do not assign an LFE.
Mark can you explain your resoning for not connecting ones subs to LFE please?
I have four vented 18" PSA subs up front with behind the screen PSA 10" MTM 210s all set at "M" size 80Hz with subs connected to LFE.
Why is your way better please, Ive been connected this way for years?

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post #2740 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Mark can you explain your resoning for not connecting ones subs to LFE please?

I have four vented 18" PSA subs up front with behind the screen PSA 10" MTM 210s all set at "M" size 80Hz with subs connected to LFE.

Why is your way better please, Ive been connected this way for years?
That recommendation was specific to Joey.

How are your PSA subs placed?

We know more about Lyngdorf's design guidelines and RoomPerfect's operation than we. did a year ago.
@arisholm can you repost your RoomPerfect guide/summary that you posted on AVF here?
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post #2741 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 11:47 AM
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One year ago the MP-50 was just a placeholder for a AV8805/X8500 or RMC-1 [sic] in my system. That was until I begun to understand Lyngdorf's guidelines and how RoomPerfect works. Turns out that it isn't magic, or perfect.

If you aren't utilizing Lyngdorf's placement recommendations you won't be optimizing the system. Trying to replace an Audyssey SSP with ROOMPERFECT without re-evaluating speaker & sub placement is a mistake. Sticking to Audyssey or Dirac may be as good or better at lower cost.

From March 2018:
Quote:
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I am rearranging my rack, installing new amps (D-Sonic), and rearranging seating (two rows, 38% & 62%). I spoke to Claus for a while yesterday and got a better understanding of how Room Perfect (I believe). I am going to rearrange my subs (corners) & mains (closer to front wall) and trust Room Perfect.
Claus Glausner (Lyngdorf's US distributor) explained to me how he had to change his thinking when first learning RoomPerfect after having prior experience with Audyssey, Dirac, and Trinnov. This helped me immensely. Several UK dealers were also instrumental in advancing my understanding. I had the pleasure of meeting and hanging out with @ARROW-AV at CEDIA 2017. @richmagnus has also been an invaluable resource. These two men have no financial interest in me (or anyone in the US)! While I don't always agree with @Rob Sinden , I have learned much from him as well.

To understand Lyngdorf's approach you must understand SBIR, Speaker Boundary Interference Response. http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/

The short of it is that time-domain/impulse response is paramount. Users should not worry about achieving a good frequency/amplitude response prior to RoomPerfect. By placing subs at the boundaries (front wall is good but corners are best) you are optimizing both their efficiency and impulse response. You must let/trust/rely on RoomPerfect to deal with room modes and frequency/amplitude response.

RoomPerfect cannot work miracles independent of how subs & speakers are placed. Trinnov does the best job accommodating sub optimal placements IME.

What I am running currently is that my front subs are placed in the corners and configured as auxiliary. My rear subs are designed specifically for response <50Hz (into single digits). I am using a miniDSP 2X4 HD to send ≤60Hz mono bass to the rears. The MP-50 will only send LFE to AUX subs if no LFE is configured. {Note to self: feature request}

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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 05-02-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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post #2742 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 12:04 PM
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Dave, I have not encountered any of these issues you describe. My guess is that you are using the OSD Setup. I stopped using that long ago and use the web interface over the home network. Connect the unit to your network. I just checked and I am able to switch units and define dB levels for speakers individually.

Hi Marc,


Regarding the inches vs cm issue for distances, when I went into the web interface, it did show inches. Not sure why it would be different between the OSD and the web interface.



Regarding the dB levels for the speakers, I'm still encountering the issue - even with the web interface. I want to make sure we are on the same page though. I believe I have found two places where gain can be specified for each channel. One is on some sort of menu that has gain settings for Atmos and Auro for each channel. I have not tried to change those. The gain I am changing is the one in the speaker layout. I click the speaker, and a window pops up. It allows me to change the speaker size and to set gain. This is where I try to set the gain. When I change the gain for the Left Surround channel, it will show that same gain for the Right Surround channel. This is with the web interface. Is this where you are changing the gain and find it working for you?




Thanks,
Dave
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post #2743 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 12:14 PM
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I was told that Lyngdorf has no plans to update the decoding of the MP-50 to a newer chipset (to support full 16 discrete channel decoding). Unless ADI release an update for the MP-50's 4th-gen SHARC (doubtful, they want to sell 5th-gens), 12 channel decoding with matrixed WIDES and TOP MIDS is the 9.1.6 for now and the future.

If they choose to release a higher discrete channel count, it will be a full newly designed processor. There are no such plans at this time. The MP-50 and MX-160 are trickle down SSPs based on the Steineay Lyngdorf P200. I believe we would first see a P300 developed before we see new McIntosh & Lyngdorf Audio SSPs.

Because I am happy with the MP-50 [and I like discrete WIDES], I am using Lexicon Logic 7 processors (3ch mode) to produce x.x.6 from x.x.4 [rather then matrix]. I have the MP-50 configured for 7.1.4 with WIDES instead of REARS. I use a Dolby PLII processor (3ch mode) to extract a mono Rear Surround to send to both REARS. I will be able to compare this with discrete 16ch decoding w/Dirac soon (Monoprice HTP-1).

Until Dolby Surround adds support for WIDES and/or DTS Neural X adds support for more than 12ch I suspect I will prefer my kludged 8.1.6 solution as it works to engage all channels with all formats (including Auro3D/Auromatic).
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post #2744 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 12:15 PM
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One year ago the MP-50 was just a placeholder for a AV8805/X8500 or RMC-1 [sic] in my system. That was until I begun to understand Lyngdorf's guidelines and how RoomPerfect works. Turns out that it isn't magic, or perfect.

If you aren't utilizing Lyngdorf's placement recommendations you won't be optimizing the system. Trying to replace an Audyssey SSP with ROOMPERFECT without re-evaluating speaker & sub placement is a mistake. Sticking to Audyssey or Dirac may be as good or better at lower cost.

From March 2018:
Claus Glausner (Lyngdorf's US distributor) explained to me how he had to change his thinking when first learning RoomPerfect after having prior experience with Audyssey, Dirac, and Trinnov. This helped me immensely. Several UK dealers were also instrumental in advancing my understanding. I had the pleasure of meeting and hanging out with @ARROW-AV at CEDIA 2017. @richmagnus has also been an invaluable resource. These two men have no financial interest in me (or anyone in the US)! While I don't always agree with @Rob Sinden , I have learned much from him as well.

To understand Lyngdorf's approach you must understand SBIR, Speaker Boundary Interference Response. http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/
https://youtu.be/Qd2hN5xviug
https://youtu.be/RaWNtz3ToyA

The short of it is that time-domain/impulse response is paramount. Users should not worry about achieving a good frequency/amplitude response prior to RoomPerfect. By placing subs at the boundaries (front wall is good but corners are best) you are optimizing both their efficiency and impulse response. You must let/trust/rely on RoomPerfect to deal with room modes and frequency/amplitude response.

RoomPerfect cannot work miracles independent of how subs & speakers are placed. Trinnov does the best job accommodating sub optimal placements IME.

What I am running currently is that my front subs are placed in the corners and configured as auxiliary. My rear subs are designed specifically for response <50Hz (into single digits). I am using a miniDSP 2X4 HD to send ≤60Hz mono bass to the rears. The MP-50 will only send LFE to AUX subs if no LFE is configured. {Note to self: feature request}

https://youtu.be/RICo6C7KIIs
https://youtu.be/ZYA4L0qE6zE
Excellent post Marc. I definitely agree with this and especially regarding the subs/woofers placement.

It was great hanging out with you at CEDIA 2017. Did you catch the Steinway Lyngdorf demos at CEDIA 2018 last year? Absolutely incredible! Claus and Katherine did an amazing job with the systems there! Are you attending CEDIA 2019 in Denver this year? If so, let's grab a coffee and catch up

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post #2745 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 12:23 PM
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Regarding the inches vs cm issue for distances, when I went into the web interface, it did show inches. Not sure why it would be different between the OSD and the web interface.
It's a bug. Report to [email protected]
Quote:
Regarding the dB levels for the speakers, I'm still encountering the issue - even with the web interface. I want to make sure we are on the same page though. I believe I have found two places where gain can be specified for each channel. One is on some sort of menu that has gain settings for Atmos and Auro for each channel. I have not tried to change those. The gain I am changing is the one in the speaker layout. I click the speaker, and a window pops up. It allows me to change the speaker size and to set gain. This is where I try to set the gain. When I change the gain for the Left Surround channel, it will show that same gain for the Right Surround channel. This is with the web interface. Is this where you are changing the gain and find it working for you?
Ok, now I understand. What you describe is by design. In Speaker Setup speaker size and gain are configured in pairs. For fine tuning SPL you must do under Channel Gain.

I recommend running RoomPerfect to see how it sets the gains. Then you can easily switch back and forth to your own manual config (bypass).
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post #2746 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Excellent post Marc. I definitely agree with this and especially regarding the subs/woofers placement.



It was great hanging out with you at CEDIA 2017. Did you catch the Steinway Lyngdorf demos at CEDIA 2018 last year? Absolutely incredible! Claus and Katherine did an amazing job with the systems there! Are you attending CEDIA 2019 in Denver this year? If so, let's grab a coffee and catch up



Thanks Nigel!

I was sick and regretfully missed CEDIA 2018 (only 90 mins away from my home).

I will be attending 2019 in Denver. I will definitely see you there!
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post #2747 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 01:49 PM
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Yes, both subs will receive LFE and bass management. Are you looking at the old paper manual or the updated PDF downloaded from: http://lyngdorf.com/mp-50/ ?
I agree regarding the poor manual. Except that I find that Bass Management is the only section that they got right.

Here is a much better version of the manual written by McIntosh:
https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/-/media...x160om-02.ashx
Do you know if on aux for the subs will the roomperfect set the trims 10db higher like it does on the Lfeoutput? Iam asking because i want a reference sound, i mean by that is that the Lfechannels is mixed with 10db higher then the rest of the channels (115db). Will the aux get the rest of the bass from the other channels also not just the Lfe?

Last edited by Joey_; 05-02-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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post #2748 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 02:37 PM
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Do you know if on aux for the subs will the roomperfect set the trims 10db higher like it does on the Lfeoutput? Iam asking because i want a reference sound, i mean by that is that the Lfechannels is mixed with 10db higher then the rest of the channels (115db). Will the aux get the rest of the bass from the other channels also not just the Lfe?
Yes. All channels should be perfectly level balanced at the focus position after running RoomPerfect. This includes the rerouted LFE. You can check/edit levels after RoomPerfect but I prefer to utilize voicings.

You will need to use a SPL meter or UMIK-1 to determine how Main Volume corresponds to reference. I believe the system tries to maximize the dynamic range available and doesn't set 0dB MV to reference (105dB/115dB max peak) like Audyssey. If your amplifiers have a gain/input sensitivity adjustment you will want set it to the lowest gain/higher input level. I.E. 4Vrms over 2Vrms or 1.4V over 0.755V.

The MP-50 is spec'd to deliver 5Vrms (+16dBu) balanced and 2.5Vrms unbalanced. On my bench the outputs provide up to ~+18dBu (6/3Vrms) before clipping. That is +14dB (+12dB by their rating) of headroom over the +4dBu (1.2Vrms) level most consumer equipment with balanced inputs expect.

Having Pro-Audio output levels makes sense as they offer the optional 16ch DCI-compliant digital AES/EBU input. I know IMAX has been using XT-32 to calibrate their theaters. Dirac is an option for Cinemas utilizing Datasat (I believe most opt-out of REQ). I would love to visit a theater utilizing RoomPerfect and see how effective it is.
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post #2749 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 02:53 PM
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Yes. All channels should be perfectly level balanced at the focus position after running RoomPerfect. This includes the rerouted LFE. You can check/edit levels after RoomPerfect but I prefer to utilize voicings.

You will need to use a SPL meter or UMIK-1 to determine how Main Volume corresponds to reference. I believe the system tries to maximize the dynamic range available and doesn't set 0dB MV to reference (105dB/115dB max peak) like Audyssey. If your amplifiers have a gain/input sensitivity adjustment you will want set it to the lowest gain/higher input level. I.E. 4Vrms over 2Vrms or 1.4V over 0.755V.

The MP-50 is spec'd to deliver 5Vrms (+16dBu) balanced and 2.5Vrms unbalanced. On my bench the outputs provide up to ~+18dBu (6/3Vrms) before clipping. That is +14dB (+12dB by their rating) of headroom over the +4dBu (1.2Vrms) level most consumer equipment with balanced inputs expect.

Having Pro-Audio output levels makes sense as they offer the optional 16ch DCI-compliant digital AES/EBU input. I know IMAX has been using XT-32 to calibrate their theaters. Dirac is an option for Cinemas utilizing Datasat (I believe most opt-out of REQ). I would love to visit a theater utilizing RoomPerfect and see how effective it is.
Do i need to calibrate the level of my subs first manual or does it act like when you have a sub connected to the Lfeout where you calibrate the level for the sub before the roomprefect? I will otherwise plug in one subwoofer first to the Lfeout and calibrate the level in the mp-50 like you can otherwise and do the same with the othe sub when i have done that i will plug them in the aux L - R before i do them roomperfect. That should be okay ? Iagree also with visit a theater that use Roompefect, that would be very nice
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post #2750 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 03:19 PM
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Do i need to calibrate the level of my subs first manual or does it act like when you have a sub connected to the Lfeout where you calibrate the level for the sub before the roomprefect? I will otherwise plug in one subwoofer first to the Lfeout and calibrate the level in the mp-50 like you can otherwise and do the same with the othe sub when i have done that i will plug them in the aux L - R before i do them roomperfect. That should be okay ?
Yes. That is the method I recommend. Or use a SPL meter to set the subs close to the same level as the mains.
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post #2751 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 03:21 PM
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That recommendation was specific to Joey.

How are your PSA subs placed?

We know more about Lyngdorf's design guidelines and RoomPerfect's operation than we. did a year ago.
@arisholm can you repost your RoomPerfect guide/summary that you posted on AVF here?
Sorry Mark I didnt know that it was directed just to Joey. My four 18" subs are all up front, two in each front corner, the other two also inline with them on the front wall. They are pointed to the wall as this gave me the best graph when I used REW years ago. Plus the distance from the main seating removed the null when they were pointed to the wall. I have bass for Africa and never ever have to add any extra from the way RP sets it. With six 10" drivers behind the screen, four 18" subs up front its beautiful to listen to on everything, even mono films!
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Yes. That is the method I recommend. Or use a SPL meter to set the subs close to the same level as the mains.
Thanks again for the help Marc Will se how close i can get the subs to the side walls. I will have the rack for the electronics on the left side. but they will be close to the speakers atleast and mabey about 1 m from the front wall where we have a big furniture from the left side wall all the way to right so the subs and the front speakers would be in front of that.
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post #2753 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 03:41 PM
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HDMI upgrade program

The HDMI 2.0b boards are finally entering production. The long delay was due to the original vendor not being able to get their chipset working within the Lyngdorf system. I expect an announcement from Lyngdorf soon.

I am not going to get the upgrade as I have found workarounds with the Oppo 20x, HDFury Vertex, and also the AVPro Edge AC-DA12-AUHD splitting the HDMI audio.

I also just ordered the Lumagen 4242 afyer seeing (I should say beholding) the new active tone mapping! It is the ultimate in HDR video processing. I'll be selling the AVPro and will likely sell at least one Oppo (I have a 203 and a CXUHD).

The HDFury Vertex is invaluable [IMO] when it come to EDID & signal troubleshooting. It also has a boosted HDMI transmitter to go longer distances and over marginal cables. The new Vertex²/Diva/Maestro even have 4 inputs now. Because I'm a geek who loves to dig deep into how things work, I prefer the HDFury solutions over updating my MP-50. I only updated my NAD HDMI because it was required for Dirac. (The AVPro also solves EDID issues but works via DIP switches. The defaults worked fine for my LG OLED77C8P).
www.hdfury.com

Spoiler!
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
HDMI upgrade program

The HDMI 2.0b boards are finally entering production. The long delay was due to the original vendor not being able to get their chipset working within the Lyngdorf system. I expect an announcement from Lyngdorf soon.

I am not going to get the upgrade as I have found workarounds with the Oppo 20x, HDFury Vertex, and also the AVPro Edge AC-DA12-AUHD splitting the HDMI audio.

I also just ordered the Lumagen 4242 afyer seeing (I should say beholding) the new active tone mapping! It is the ultimate in HDR video processing. I'll be selling the AVPro and will likely sell at least one Oppo (I have a 203 and a CXUHD).

The HDFury Vertex is invaluable [IMO] when it come to EDID & signal troubleshooting. It also has a boosted HDMI transmitter to go longer distances and over marginal cables. The new Vertex²/Diva/Maestro even have 4 inputs now. Because I'm a geek who loves to dig deep into how things work, I prefer the HDFury solutions over updating my MP-50. I only updated my NAD HDMI because it was required for Dirac. (The AVPro also solves EDID issues but works via DIP switches. The defaults worked fine for my LG OLED77C8P).
www.hdfury.com

Spoiler!
For those who haven't heard about this yet:

madVR ENVY:

https://mailchi.mp/c7615e96b103/28ktk2x74t/

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...on-thread.html

Dare I say, better than the LUMAGEN PRO?

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Sorry Mark I didnt know that it was directed just to Joey. My four 18" subs are all up front, two in each front corner, the other two also inline with them on the front wall. They are pointed to the wall as this gave me the best graph when I used REW years ago. Plus the distance from the main seating removed the null when they were pointed to the wall. I have bass for Africa and never ever have to add any extra from the way RP sets it. With six 10" drivers behind the screen, four 18" subs up front its beautiful to listen to on everything, even mono films!
I think moving to AUX subs is definitely worth a try for you. The PSA subs have great upper bass (beyond 300Hz I believe). While the PSA monitors' lower extension is not great (or do you have 210T towers as mains?). This scenario absolutely ideal for RoomPerfect.

Stack the subs 2x2 in the two front corners. The ultimate is an array of subs stacked floor to ceiling in the corners. You could point them directly into the corners for zero SBIR. However, the ported PSAs generate more tactile response when pointed towards the listener (bass is omnidirectional but tactile response seems to be more directional and dependent on proximity). These are the original Tact/Lyngdorf Audio corner boundary woofers.

I recommend experimenting with higher crosovers. I would start at 120Hz and try as high as 200Hz. I settled on 125Hz in my room. I think you have the opportunity to take your custom up another notch (if that is even possible).
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post #2756 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
For those who haven't heard about this yet:



madVR ENVY:



https://mailchi.mp/c7615e96b103/28ktk2x74t/



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...on-thread.html



Dare I say, better than the LUMAGEN PRO?



Except, it is not real yet and I have no idea when it will be.
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post #2757 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 04:33 PM
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I think moving to AUX subs is definitely worth a try for you. The PSA subs have great upper bass (beyond 300Hz I believe). While the PSA monitors' lower extension is not great (or do you have 210T towers as mains?). This scenario absolutely ideal for RoomPerfect.

Stack the subs 2x2 in the two front corners. The ultimate is an array of subs stacked floor to ceiling in the corners. You could point them directly into the corners for zero SBIR. However, the ported PSAs generate more tactile response when pointed towards the listener (bass is omnidirectional but tactile response seems to be more directional and dependent on proximity). These are the original Tact/Lyngdorf Audio corner boundary woofers.

I recommend experimenting with higher crosovers. I would start at 120Hz and try as high as 200Hz. I settled on 125Hz in my room. I think you have the opportunity to take your custom up another notch (if that is even possible).
The V1811 PSAs specs are.
Design Vented
Driver 18" High Excursion
Powered Yes
Amp 960W RMS (2100W PEAK)
Enclosure CNC machined MDF
Frequency Response 16Hz-200Hz +/-3dB
In-Room Extension 11Hz-14Hz
Size (DxWxH) 22" x 20" x 24" with grille

Speaking with the owner some time ago on the crossover between the PSA MTM210s (non tower) and the PSA V1811s he recommended it was important to use an 80Hz crossover with this combination. I was going to buy the towers but he said I had nothing to gain with using the V1811 subs with the MTMs.

I cant stack the subs as they are all placed beneath the stage, the stage floor is just above the subs, the AT screen and MTMs above.

Do you still think its worth trying higher crossovers after viewing the specs and the recommendations I had from the maker?

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I think moving to AUX subs is definitely worth a try for you. The PSA subs have great upper bass (beyond 300Hz I believe). While the PSA monitors' lower extension is not great (or do you have 210T towers as mains?). This scenario absolutely ideal for RoomPerfect.

Stack the subs 2x2 in the two front corners. The ultimate is an array of subs stacked floor to ceiling in the corners. You could point them directly into the corners for zero SBIR. However, the ported PSAs generate more tactile response when pointed towards the listener (bass is omnidirectional but tactile response seems to be more directional and dependent on proximity). These are the original Tact/Lyngdorf Audio corner boundary woofers.

I recommend experimenting with higher crosovers. I would start at 120Hz and try as high as 200Hz. I settled on 125Hz in my room. I think you have the opportunity to take your custom up another notch (if that is even possible).
On auxsubs, is it a crossover like you have on the other channels or is it an lpf as you have for the Lfe from the Lfeoutput? Because if its lpf and not a crossover it shouldn't matter for the rest of channels if it will be like a separate channel. Iam thinking 120hz like a Lfechannel and 80hz crossover for the standardchannels. Am i thinking correct about that?

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Speaking with the owner some time ago on the crossover between the PSA MTM210s (non tower) and the PSA V1811s he recommended it was important to use an 80Hz crossover with this combination. I was going to buy the towers but he said I had nothing to gain with using the V1811 subs with the MTMs.
I hesitate to disagree here. Tom Vodhanel (the V in SVS) is a legend and I have great respect for him. However, I have heard these speakers and believe a 80Hz crossover is too low. I wouldn't go below 100Hz and 120Hz is probably best. As you know, the crossover is a slope and not a brick wall. Here is the MTM-210 and V1801 amplitude response. While I have not heard the 210Ts but have read multiple reports that they have significantly more midbass.
Quote:
I cant stack the subs as they are all placed beneath the stage, the stage floor is just above the subs, the AT screen and MTMs above.



Do you still think its worth trying higher crossovers after viewing the specs and the recommendations I had from the maker?
You may not be able to stack them vertically but you can horizontally, side-by-side. Yes, I feel it is worth trying. I'm not sure Tom V has any experience with RoomPerfect.
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post #2760 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 05:55 PM
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On auxsubs, is it a crossover like you have on the other channels or is it an lpf as you have for the Lfe from the Lfeoutput? Because if its lpf and not a crossover it shouldn't matter for the rest of channels if it will be like a separate channel. Iam thinking 120hz like a Lfechannel and 80hz crossover for the standardchannels. Am i thinking correct about that?
I prefer 80Hz for the LFE. Sounds clearer and removes some of the bloated one-note bass found in movies. There are a number of posts about it.
Quote:
* The LFE channel, which exists only in 5.1 (or higher) movies and music, has it's own setting in our AVR's, called the LPF of LFE. Since the LFE channel is intended to contain bass content up to 120Hz, the typical setting for the LPF is 120Hz. And, that is the customary setting which most AVR's engage by default. However, a number of audio experts, including Mark Seaton and Roger Dressler (formerly with Dolby Labs and one of the creators of Pro logic II) believe that, it can make sense to experiment with lower LPF settings.

Some people have suggested that relatively little meaningful bass content is mixed into the LFE channel above about 80Hz, as the LFE channel is primarily intended to emphasize lower bass sounds and special effects. That may or may not be correct in general, although some film mixers have indicated that most of their meaningful LFE content is in the lower bass range. It would make sense for that to be the case, since the original Dolby/THX standard was for speakers to crossover to subwoofers at 80Hz, and the <80Hz frequencies were always the ones most commonly associated with subwoofers.

In some cases, setting a lower LPF might emphasize low-bass frequencies a little more, and might also result in slightly clearer bass. Since the LPF is simply a filter, which gradually attenuates volume levels, setting a lower LPF will not completely eliminate bass above the filter, but it will roll-off the higher bass content a little earlier. For instance, an LPF setting of 80Hz would roll-off the 100Hz frequencies by 6db, and the 120Hz frequencies by 12db. Doing that would provide relatively more emphasis to the low-bass frequencies, compared to the mid-bass frequencies. That is similar to, but probably more subtle than, approaching the bass from the bottom by lifting the lowest frequencies with a rising house curve.

Mark Seaton has made the point that the more someone is boosting his subwoofer(s), the more that an 80Hz LPF may be helpful in making the bass blend well with the speakers in an audio system. That would particularly be the case where someone was using 80Hz crossovers for the regular channels. Remember that a subwoofer boost lifts all of the bass frequencies symmetrically, in both the regular channels and in the LFE channel. Where significant subwoofer boosts are employed, the bass frequencies above 80Hz in the LFE channel (which are already 10db louder than the regular channels) might seem to stand out too much in comparison to the lower bass frequencies. Again, that might be more likely to be noticeable where 80Hz crossovers are employed for the regular channels.

Some people may notice a little more bass clarity, and a little greater concentration on the low-bass, with an 80Hz setting. Others may prefer the fuller mid-bass sound with the default 120Hz setting, or may perhaps prefer a compromise setting of 90Hz or 100Hz. The differences among the various settings are probably fairly subtle, depending on the listener, and which setting sounds better is strictly a user preference issue. Although AVR makers typically employ a default LPF setting of 120Hz, there is no absolute right or wrong way to use the LPF of LFE. (FWIW, I do think it is possible that a higher LPF setting might contribute to subwoofer localization, when bass-heavy 5.1 content is playing.)

As a general rule, there may be no particular reason to experiment with the LPF unless a fairly significant independent sub boost is employed--perhaps at least 3 or 4db on top of DEQ, or even more than that without DEQ, and unless crossovers of 80Hz or 90Hz are employed for the regular channels. Or unless someone is specifically looking for greater clarity in the mid-bass range. There is some additional discussion of methods to achieve mid-bass clarity in the next section on Cascading Crossovers.

[Some additional discussion of the LPF of LFE, including comments from Mark Seaton and Roger Dressler, can be found in the Audyssey FAQ, linked below. It should be noted, however, that one comment at the very end of the FAQ discussion is not correct. LFE material is not "brick wall" filtered at 120Hz. As noted above, the LPF (at any setting) simply rolls-off content gradually, just as any other low pass filter does.



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