Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Joey_ View Post
On auxsubs, is it a crossover like you have on the other channels or is it an lpf as you have for the Lfe from the Lfeoutput? Because if its lpf and not a crossover it shouldn't matter for the rest of channels if it will be like a separate channel. Iam thinking 120hz like a Lfechannel and 80hz crossover for the standardchannels. Am i thinking correct about that?
Yes. In Speaker Setup you set the Subwoofer speaker size as its LPF. Bass Cutoff Frequency is the HPF for the speakers.
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post #2762 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
I prefer 80Hz for the LFE. Sounds clearer and removes some of the bloated one-note bass found in movies. There are a number of posts about it.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html
This is not a rule but a subjective preference in some systems. The PSA subs are much more suitable than your SVS subs for setting a higher crossover. There are many explanations for bloated bass.
@duckymomo , how are your subs placed. How did you determine distances? Was plate amp latency taken into account.
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post #2763 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This is not a rule but a subjective preference in some systems. The PSA subs are much more suitable than your SVS subs for setting a higher crossover. There are many explanations for bloated bass.
@duckymomo , how are your subs placed. How did you determine distances? Was plate amp latency taken into account.
Corners, and yes I have spent countless hours testing and fine tuning the delays until the results were just right. Sounds absolutely wonderful with the tightest and most impactful bass I've ever heard.

The SB-13s have plenty of extension up to 200Hz+. See attached Audioholics outdoor measurements.
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post #2764 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I hesitate to disagree here. Tom Vodhanel (the V in SVS) is a legend and I have great respect for him. However, I have heard these speakers and believe a 80Hz crossover is too low. I wouldn't go below 100Hz and 120Hz is probably best. As you know, the crossover is a slope and not a brick wall. Here is the MTM-210 and V1801 amplitude response. While I have not heard the 210Ts but have read multiple reports that they have significantly more midbass.

You may not be able to stack them vertically but you can horizontally, side-by-side. Yes, I feel it is worth trying. I'm not sure Tom V has any experience with RoomPerfect.
Thank you so so much Marc for your views on this, I really appreciate your knowledge!
Im going to try some of your ideas here.
Ive inclueded two pix of the for subs facing the front wall under the stage, it was this placement that removed the null in my centre row of three rows of three (total 12 seats). The centre row is the most important and where I take my focus 1 from. As the four subs are pretty much butted up to eachother, they almost cover the whole front wall, they are almost joined across the whole front. As you can see they are all on there sides, its the only way they fit inder the stage. As you can see in the subs pix I have two thick layers of rockwool on the side walls, plus one layer in the middle under the stage, should all these be removed to get the outside subs closer to the side walls?

There is a few things I could do, forget about that centre row null and face them all OUT, or maybe have two facing out and two facing to the front wall, what are your thoughts?

Ive also included a pix of the three behind the screen MTMs, these sit above the stage above the subs.

I have the LFE set to 120 and the speakers set to M 80. I will try your idea of the crossover for the speakers on 120, very exciting!
When I make the change "test" to 120 for the speakers I have to re run RP dont I?

Again thank you so much
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post #2765 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This is not a rule but a subjective preference in some systems. The PSA subs are much more suitable than your SVS subs for setting a higher crossover. There are many explanations for bloated bass.
@duckymomo , how are your subs placed. How did you determine distances? Was plate amp latency taken into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Corners, and yes I have spent countless hours testing and fine tuning the delays until the results were just right. Sounds absolutely wonderful with the tightest and most impactful bass I've ever heard.

The SB-13s have plenty of extension up to 200Hz+. See attached Audioholics outdoor measurements.
My apologies. You are correct the SVS has very good upper extension. I've just experienced that the JL Fathoms are cleaner in the upper bass. With four you probably have plenty of headroom. PSA is known for its upper bass and we are talking 18" vs 13.5" drivers (equivalent to most 15").

The point I poorly tried to make is that a system can be very clean even with 200Hz crossover with the right subs and utilization of RoomPerfect. Lyngdorf actually recommends crossover between 200-400Hz which is a foreign concept to most of us.

I do agree that lowering the LFE crossover is effective if the bass seems bloated. In my bedroom I cross speakers at 100Hz, but I also set LFE LPF to 100Hz as it sounds best to me in this particular system.
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post #2766 of 3013 Old 05-02-2019, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Thank you so so much Marc for your views on this, I really appreciate your knowledge!

Im going to try some of your ideas here.

Ive inclueded two pix of the for subs facing the front wall under the stage, it was this placement that removed the null in my centre row of three rows of three (total 12 seats). The centre row is the most important and where I take my focus 1 from. As the four subs are pretty much butted up to eachother, they almost cover the whole front wall, they are almost joined across the whole front. As you can see they are all on there sides, its the only way they fit inder the stage. As you can see in the subs pix I have two thick layers of rockwool on the side walls, plus one layer in the middle under the stage, should all these be removed to get the outside subs closer to the side walls?
Yes, you need to remove all of the rockwool from around the subs and get them as close to the actual corners as possible.
Quote:
There is a few things I could do, forget about that centre row null and face them all OUT, or maybe have two facing out and two facing to the front wall, what are your thoughts?
That is a good idea. I would try them all facing out first. If the null still exists you can try flipping two. You should ask PSA what the potency latency is of the plate amp (with all knobs at default).

BTW, what is the purpose of the stage?
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When I make the change "test" to 120 for the speakers I have to re run RP dont I?
Yep
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post #2767 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Yes, you need to remove all of the rockwool from around the subs and get them as close to the actual corners as possible.

That is a good idea. I would try them all facing out first. If the null still exists you can try flipping two. You should ask PSA what the potency is of the plate amp (with all knobs at default).

BTW, what is the purpose of the stage?

Yep
Oh I will do what you say and test thank you Marc. The purpose of the stage is part of the room design, it holds the speakers, all the curved screen frame, automated maskings, footlights for the main curtain etc etc etc... Being an ex projectionist of some 35+ years, Im very traditional in my setup, thats why it looks like a small cinema from the past. None of my speakers are visible, everything in the walls, covered or behind the screen, Atmos the lot, no one sees a thing, they just know theres alot of sound coming out but dont know from where. I will report back after my tests tomorrow.

I do need to run RP again dont if for every change I make, crossovers the lot?

How do you fell about my LFE on the sub set to 120, rather than the 80 that most would have it at? (not the speaker crossovers that we are going to try at 120 as you recommended)

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post #2768 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:01 AM
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So with full range LR speakers paired with two aux subs, set the cross over at 120 even though the front speakers are full range? Might need to try this. I have mine set at a much lower cross over. I have two JL Audio subs paired with my KEF Reference speakers. Thanks. SJ
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post #2769 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:02 AM
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Room Imperfect?

Where RoomPerfect can improve is in regards to automatically setting speaker delays/distances. Bass management is well documented in the MP-50 manual. But nothing regarding DSP/amplifier delay is mentioned. In my opinion, this information is crucial for proper subwoofer integration.
Quote:
"Flemming Smith added: 

for the MP-50 you will have to add to the actual measured distance to the subwoofer, if the internal processing of the subwoofer is causing a delay to the signal"
The most accurate method is to utilize Room EQ Wizard w/acoustic timing reference to fine tune the delays/distances prior to running RoomPerfect. It makes a positive difference.

Lyngdorf is exploring adding automatic delay measurement to RoomPerfect. It hasn't been added already due to potential errors in the detection algorithms they have tested. I recommended they communicate with John Mulcahy - Creator of REW
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post #2770 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You should ask PSA what the potency is of the plate amp (with all knobs at default).

Marc can you explain this question in laymans terms please so i understand what Im asking PSA?

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post #2771 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:18 AM
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Murray, where are you located? I'd love to visit someday.
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I do need to run RP again don't if for every change I make, crossovers the lot?
Yep
Quote:
How do you fell about my LFE on the sub set to 120, rather than the 80 that most would have it at? (not the speaker crossovers that we are going to try at 120 as you recommended)
Most have it at 120, not 80.
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So with full range LR speakers paired with two aux subs, set the cross over at 120 even though the front speakers are full range? Might need to try this. I have mine set at a much lower cross over. I have two JL Audio subs paired with my KEF Reference speakers. Thanks. SJ
Yes, it's worth a try.

Another setting that some in Europe have had success with is setting Use Natural Roll-off to Yes. With this setting the Bass cut-off frequency still defines bass that gets sent to bass management, but the speaker is allowed to play full range and roll-off naturally. Apparently RoomPerfect phase aligns so that there is not phase cancellations. I'm guessing it also equalizes in a manner that prevents the bloating that occurs with most SSP's double-bass modes. I haven't tried this as all of my speakers are small and roll-off near 80Hz.
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post #2772 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:23 AM
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Marc can you explain this question in laymans terms please so i understand what Im asking PSA?
Autocorrect failure. I meant latency.

"Flemming Smith added:

for the MP-50 you will have to add to the actual measured distance to the subwoofer, if the internal processing of the subwoofer is causing a delay to the signal"

This is from the TDAI-2170 manual
Quote:
5.6.1 Delays
The available settings are:

Distance

If you are using a setup with speakers and/or subwoofers located at an identical distance to the listening position, you don’t need to set a distance. If the distances are not identical, you need to enter it in order to ensure that the sound from each loudspeaker reaches the listening position simultaneously. To correctly measure the distance, please see Guided Speaker Setup.

Amplifier delay

On analog and digital out, you can set an amplifier delay. If you have an active subwoofer or an additional amplifier, there will be a natural electronic delay in these products. Refer to the original manufacturer’s instructions to obtain the correct amplifier delay.
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post #2773 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:26 AM
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Murray, where are you located? I'd love to visit someday.
Yep

Most have it at 120, not 80.

Yes, it's worth a try.
.
You would be most welcome to see my setup anytime but Im in New Zealand, Im sure you are in the USA

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post #2774 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:32 AM
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You would be most welcome to see my setup anytime but Im in New Zealand, Im sure you are in the USA
I may just surprise you. We plan to visit the Hobbit's Shire someday.
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post #2775 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:04 AM
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I may just surprise you. We plan to visit the Hobbit's Shire someday.
Great stuff! Im in Auckland the largest city, Hobbit Town is about 2.5 hours south of Auckland.

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I may just surprise you. We plan to visit the Hobbit's Shire someday.
Marc I forgot to ask you, do you think I should test 120Hz crossover on every speaker in the room, all 13?

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post #2777 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:41 AM
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Should not you first measure the frequency response of the speaker and if it decays at 50Hz, then it must not be separated under 100Hz?
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post #2778 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:42 AM
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I just did a very silly thing Marc, but it tought me a lesson... Its late in NZ and I dont have time to turn all the subs round and remove the rockwool until tomorrow. But I thought I would change the crossovers on all 13 speakers to 120Hz even though I know its no use doing RP until the whole job is done tomorrow... Anyway I changed to 120 and saved, turned on my proj to have a listen and WOW I couldnt believe how much bass there was, so much more, but it was too MUCH and boomy!....I thought oh well once I do the proper changes tomorrow and run RP that will clean it up.....

But I thought I better check first the voicings etc etc and saw that I was in bypass, I then knew why I had too much bass! I tried to set to focus 1 or global, but it was locked on bypass, bingo it then dawned on me that after any change, even just a crossover all settings are lost in RP, it has to be run again! I had HUGE bass but terrible....

I was so eager to try the new 120Hz crossovers, but sadly that test tonight was a complete waste of time....

I will report back tomorrow after I do all the correct changes, properly!...

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post #2779 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:47 AM
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Should not you first measure the frequency response of the speaker and if it decays at 50Hz, then it must not be separated under 100Hz?
My ceiling and wall speakers and Atmos speakers are

http://images.klipsch.com/KS7502THX_...617.1556869509 and

http://images.klipsch.com/KL7800THX_...617.1556869509

I need to know if I should set all the crossovers to 120Hz for my 13 speakers in the room which includes the PSA MTM210s.

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I think moving to AUX subs is definitely worth a try for you. The PSA subs have great upper bass (beyond 300Hz I believe). While the PSA monitors' lower extension is not great (or do you have 210T towers as mains?). This scenario absolutely ideal for RoomPerfect.

Stack the subs 2x2 in the two front corners. The ultimate is an array of subs stacked floor to ceiling in the corners. You could point them directly into the corners for zero SBIR. However, the ported PSAs generate more tactile response when pointed towards the listener (bass is omnidirectional but tactile response seems to be more directional and dependent on proximity). These are the original Tact/Lyngdorf Audio corner boundary woofers.

I recommend experimenting with higher crosovers. I would start at 120Hz and try as high as 200Hz. I settled on 125Hz in my room. I think you have the opportunity to take your custom up another notch (if that is even possible).
Nice Marc! I am doing this with the seaton F18, absolute class when Deep bass hits..... one impulse hit, very nice indeed. Transient attack is superb. Great recommendation, i went with 125hz too, brilliant....

Thumbs up!!
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post #2781 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 02:13 AM
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According to the data sheet, you must not disconnect below 90Hz (KS7502), the speakers behave in each room differently, you can go down to 30Hz with me up to 20Hz, so you should measure the frequency response.
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post #2783 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
My apologies. You are correct the SVS has very good upper extension. I've just experienced that the JL Fathoms are cleaner in the upper bass. With four you probably have plenty of headroom. PSA is known for its upper bass and we are talking 18" vs 13.5" drivers (equivalent to most 15").

The point I poorly tried to make is that a system can be very clean even with 200Hz crossover with the right subs and utilization of RoomPerfect. Lyngdorf actually recommends crossover between 200-400Hz which is a foreign concept to most of us.

I do agree that lowering the LFE crossover is effective if the bass seems bloated. In my bedroom I cross speakers at 100Hz, but I also set LFE LPF to 100Hz as it sounds best to me in this particular system.
I agree, I was just talking about the LFE crossover, not for the speakers. I watch a lot of crappy action movies and this is where I see the benefits. I doubt it makes that much of a difference on good soundtracks that don't have excessive upper bass and are properly low passed.

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post #2784 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:36 PM
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Should not you first measure the frequency response of the speaker and if it decays at 50Hz, then it must not be separated under 100Hz?
Yes, that is a good principle to use. Setting the crossover point a full octave the speaker's f3 point (2xf3), the roll off knee (-3dB for a sealed cab and -6dB for ported). The f3 point on the PSA MTM-210 is 70Hz. I find a full octave a bit much. ~⅔octave is better IMO. I want at least a 50Hz extension for setting a 80Hz xover. This is all my opinion. There is no hard rule.
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post #2785 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I need to know if I should set all the crossovers to 120Hz for my 13 speakers in the room which includes the PSA MTM210s.
I find that setting identical crossovers helps smooth panning. But it is not necessary.

Natural Roll-off w/120Hz x-overs may be something you should try too. I need to try it myself as RoomPerfect is supposed to up the combined sub/speaker response for EACH speaker.
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post #2786 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:33 PM
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I find that setting identical crossovers helps smooth panning. But it is not necessary.

Natural Roll-off w/120Hz x-overs may be something you should try too. I need to try it myself as RoomPerfect is supposed to up the combined sub/speaker response for EACH speaker.
What really is the difference when setting natural rolloff to ON vs OFF as most probably have it? BTW PM sent.

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post #2787 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 01:48 PM
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"Flemming Smith added:

for the MP-50 you will have to add to the actual measured distance to the subwoofer, if the internal processing of the subwoofer is causing a delay to the signal"

This doesn't sound quite right, or at least ambiguous.

Seems like the sub distance setting should be the physical distance plus the distance equivalent to the sub electronics' delay.

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post #2788 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 02:17 PM
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This doesn't sound quite right, or at least ambiguous.

Seems like the sub distance setting should be the physical distance plus the distance equivalent to the sub electronics' delay.
It made sense to me. But the info I posted from the manual should have cleared it up. Your explanation may be better.

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post #2789 of 3013 Old 05-03-2019, 02:19 PM
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What really is the difference when setting natural rolloff to ON vs OFF as most probably have it?
I haven't tested it to be sure but this is my understanding:
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Another setting that some in Europe have had success with is setting Use Natural Roll-off to Yes. With this setting the Bass cut-off frequency still defines bass that gets sent to bass management, but the speaker is allowed to play full range and roll-off naturally. Apparently RoomPerfect phase aligns so that there is not phase cancellations. I'm guessing it also equalizes in a manner that prevents the bloating that occurs with most SSP's double-bass modes. I haven't tried this as all of my speakers are small and roll-off near 80Hz.
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post #2790 of 3013 Old 05-04-2019, 04:56 AM
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My configuration is 7.1.2 with top middle.
I understand that top mid is matrix-generated from top-front and top-rear, however it is unclear to me which MD-50 physical XLR output connector I would use for connection to my speaker amp. I cannot see this from the manual, however it might be clear from the setup in the app?

BTW, I love the option of configuring two of the Aux outputs as FL & FR clones!

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