Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 97 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2881 of 3012 Old 07-01-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Xyrric View Post
The subs are obviously dissimilar. I am lucky enough to be able to place them in the front corners and so could use AUX1 (left sub) and AUX2 (right sub) but with one being sealed and the other ported is that the best option?

Thanks in advance
Hi, that will probably not work very well, as is well documented in previous posts. In your case I'd suggest that you connect both subs on the LFE with a Y-splitter, and use the phase knob on the closest sub (or possibly on the sealed sub, hard to know) to align them, either by ear or preferably by REW or similar (a lot can be said on that topic, but please read previous posts), before you run RP. You may want to play a bit with leveling between the subs as well to optimise headroom (obviously your Captivator should do the heavy lifting, but if you are lucky the JL can still smooth out the FR reasonably well).
And I agree with you that you should bass manage all of your speakers to the subs, at least from 40-60Hz for the mains and way up to 100-120Hz for the smaller speakers in your case, despite the fact that your mains can play low...
PS: Personally I would go a bit further and invest in a cheap MiniDSP 2x4 in your case in an attempt the get the most out of the combination of such different subs, e.g., you could let your Captivator enjoy stuff from 10-60Hz and the JL from 40-120Hz... or even better: buy one more JL and you can use Aux1-2 for the JLs up front in a stereo config, and place the 18" monster in the back playing LFE.

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post #2882 of 3012 Old 07-02-2019, 06:50 AM
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I should receive my MP-50 this afternoon and have been looking at the manual on-line.

I would like your recommendations on speaker size and how to connect my subwoofers.

My front 3 are PMC MB2SE speakers. I have two subs, a JL audio Fathom F113 and a JTR Captivator 2400ULF.

From what I understand from the manual my front speakers could be set to XL (full range) as they play down to 20Hz. Would there be any reason to set them to L and send anything below 40 HZ to the subs?

The side surrounds and rear speakers are MK IW300 speakers with a frequency response of 80hz-22khz. On that basis I'm thinking their size shouldn't be set to M (cutoff frequency 80Hz) but rather S (cutoff frequency 100Hz) or even XS (cutoff frequency 120Hz)?

The subs are obviously dissimilar. I am lucky enough to be able to place them in the front corners and so could use AUX1 (left sub) and AUX2 (right sub) but with one being sealed and the other ported is that the best option?

Thanks in advance
The MB2SE's have very accurate and dynamic bass - better than most other speakers and I'd definitely set those to XL. They will outperform the subs I think in terms of accuracy and response time for bass sounds. Similarly your surround speakers will probably do a better job than the subs above 80 hz hence I'd set those to S . Not sure about dissimilar subs though. perhaps try one on LFE Channel and then 2 to compare? Let us know how you go.
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post #2883 of 3012 Old 07-03-2019, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
The MB2SE's have very accurate and dynamic bass - better than most other speakers and I'd definitely set those to XL. They will outperform the subs I think in terms of accuracy and response time for bass sounds. Similarly your surround speakers will probably do a better job than the subs above 80 hz hence I'd set those to S . Not sure about dissimilar subs though. perhaps try one on LFE Channel and then 2 to compare? Let us know how you go.
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Hi, that will probably not work very well, as is well documented in previous posts. In your case I'd suggest that you connect both subs on the LFE with a Y-splitter, and use the phase knob on the closest sub (or possibly on the sealed sub, hard to know) to align them, either by ear or preferably by REW or similar (a lot can be said on that topic, but please read previous posts), before you run RP. You may want to play a bit with leveling between the subs as well to optimise headroom (obviously your Captivator should do the heavy lifting, but if you are lucky the JL can still smooth out the FR reasonably well).
And I agree with you that you should bass manage all of your speakers to the subs, at least from 40-60Hz for the mains and way up to 100-120Hz for the smaller speakers in your case, despite the fact that your mains can play low...
PS: Personally I would go a bit further and invest in a cheap MiniDSP 2x4 in your case in an attempt the get the most out of the combination of such different subs, e.g., you could let your Captivator enjoy stuff from 10-60Hz and the JL from 40-120Hz... or even better: buy one more JL and you can use Aux1-2 for the JLs up front in a stereo config, and place the 18" monster in the back playing LFE.
Thank you both for your thoughts. I can see that some experimentation over the upcoming weeks will be necessary. I've bought a Y splitter and will set up today with both subs on the LFE channel. I'm also going to start with the MB2SE's set to XL and the rest set to S and see how the system sounds for a week or two before making any changes.
I'll definitely let you know how things progress. I'm coming from an Anthem D2V which if you don't need Atmos is still a great processor but I hope to add four ceiling speakers before the end of August. In the meantime it will be fun to see how the MP-50 let's my system stretch its legs. I have always felt I've not been getting the best out of the MB2SE's due to a difficult L - shaped room and having had a TDAI 3400 on loan I know RoomPerfect is an improvement in my room over Anthem's ARC.

All the best.
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post #2884 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 04:50 AM
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I am still using a 1080p Sony projector and will probably continue to do so for another two years while I await decreased pricing and improved tech with the 4k projectors. With that said, I will eventually upgrade to a 4k projector but it isn't a big deal to me at the moment. I am still not sold that resolution is worth a hill of beans on a 127" screen at 13 feet
Is there room in your boat? I feel the same and I'm even closer to the screen.

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but I do realize that the newer projectors have higher lumens, deeper blacks, and HDR which is probably the biggest benefit of all.
Emphasis added. I don't think projectors present true HDR images, even if they ingest HDR bitstreams. They do not have the peak brightness needed. I let the Oppo 203 apply its tone mapping to UHD discs even though the DLA-RS520 could do it.
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post #2885 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 07:01 AM
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May I ask what the limitations are with the current HDMI boards and where this becomes an issue? I am still using a 1080p Sony projector and will probably continue to do so for another two years while I await decreased pricing and improved tech with the 4k projectors. With that said, I will eventually upgrade to a 4k projector but it isn't a big deal to me at the moment. I am still not sold that resolution is worth a hill of beans on a 127" screen at 13 feet, but I do realize that the newer projectors have higher lumens, deeper blacks, and HDR which is probably the biggest benefit of all. With the current board, is there a bottleneck or problem with a standard UHD 4k disc from Best Buy or is this upgrade for the 8k and beyond stuff coming. I chase audio improvements, but I am not a video purist at all. Any idea when the MP-50 will ship with the new boards installed? Spending $1300 to ship it back to Europe and being without a system for weeks or longer sounds like a serious and expensive pain in the arse.
No real limitation with currently available material. I just had to set Apple TV 4K resolution at 4k HDR 30hz, otherwise ATV wants to connect at 4KHDR @60hz. All HDR material is currently 24 hz anyway including UHD bluray.

The HDMI 2.1 board will probably take you into the 8k era and there is no need to rush into it - although i had heard that they might not have to be sent back to Denmark anyway. "Later this year" is what they are predicting for the new boards but there could be a case to twist your dealers arm for a better discount at this stage to buy one now. If demand increases again with the new board ( like it did when the MP50 was first released) there won't be much discounting going on.
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post #2886 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 05:32 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys. I am torn on Lyngdorf or wait for Monoprice/Emotiva to mature - decisions.

Glad to know I am not alone on this sparsely populated "4k projector skeptic" island

I’m a little surprised how long the Emotiva has taken ... and this was going into it with low expectations based on the XMC-1
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post #2887 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 07:20 PM
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It a tough decision for sure. Wait for what may never come to fruition or just get the Lyngdorf and be done. The 8805 sounds good, but I know I am leaving performance on the table. I really liked Dirac Live because it made the speakers disappear where Audyssey and ARC still make me feel like I am in the middle of a lot of speakers. It sounds great, but after hearing what Dirac did, I can't "un-hear" it if you know what I mean. The negative on Dirac Live is that it made the bass feel anemic compared to Audyssey, ARC, and AccuEQ. Maybe it was more "accurate" but I didn't like it. I am also a bass head and prefer more than less, so I am willing to say it was my issue, not Dirac's. I probably could have done more to correct it but I was tired of fiddling with it endlessly. I had gotten to the point where I was ready to throw REW and my laptop out of the 2nd floor window. Maybe I am chasing unicorns but the subjective reviews I hear of RP are familiar. I understand what the reviewer is describing. Although I have lost money swapping AVP/AVRs over the last two years, it has allowed me to have multiple units with various room corrections in the same room. I know what I am looking for and recognize it when I hear it. When I read the reviews of RP on various forums and websites and how it compares to other RCs it resonates with me (pun intended), because I know exactly what they are describing having owned it myself . I have no intentions of doing more than 7.x.4 All of my speakers are large and I just don't have the room. Wides could be a possibility but their lack of support in movies make them a poor choice from an ROI basis. The MP-50 seems to check all my boxes from my reading.



I completely understand the "can't unhear something" fear. Thats one of the worries I have about selling the Trinnov....you don't what you have 'till its gone type of thing

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post #2888 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 08:29 PM
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Dang man, I didn't know you stepped up to the big leagues. When did you do that?

heh - A few months back. Had to scratch that itch of what’s it’s like. And it *is* pretty nice but at this point in my life I just don’t have the time/waf approval to devote the resources (time to diy or professional calibration) to get the most out of it. So i think i’m going to “lay up” (in golf terms) for a bit until my kids are older and i can move home theater to the front burner a bit more

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post #2889 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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Ok brother I am going to put you on the spot to rank them. I am not a stalker, but I know you have owned the Trinnov, Marantz, Lyngdorf, NAD, and Anthem for sure I am sure I am probably missing a few. What is your likes and dislikes? If there was one that you would rate the highest based on cost, reliability, ease of use, etc - what would it be and why?



sent you a PM Chris

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post #2890 of 3012 Old 07-05-2019, 09:49 PM
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sent you a PM Chris
I'd be interested too in particular the comparison of Trinnov and Bryston in your setup
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post #2891 of 3012 Old 07-06-2019, 09:49 AM
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sent you a PM Chris


Not fair . We (I) would love to hear your take also.


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post #2892 of 3012 Old 07-06-2019, 09:54 AM
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fair enough: here’s a cut and paste of what I sent Chris. Pardon the typos:


Spoiler!
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post #2893 of 3012 Old 07-06-2019, 10:48 AM
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fair enough: here’s a cut and paste of what I sent Chris. Pardon the typos:

- the Lyngdorf sounded very similar to the Anthem. I couldnt notice much differrence between RP and ARC. The lyngdorf though, was not very WAF friendly. I couldnt get reliable function with a universal remote (I know some use the harmony elite but that remote did not fly with the family, coming from a URC remote). Big caveat is I only had a 5.1.4 at the time. If you have more speakers to matrix sound, you oculd get more out of it.
This is the MP-50 thread, but have you tried the iPad based Harmony app? You still have to set up macros and steps, but the URC requires custom programming AFAIK for every change, usually from dealers. I can’t speak to your family, but my own was perfectly fine with a Harmony back in my Denon 4311 days.

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- 8805. We've talked about this one before. A very solid eprformer...but with audysset. the app helps, but its still not Dirac
Madhu, I’ll grant you that convenience and ease of use are advantages for the 8805 in a family environment. But Audyssey XT32 is a minimum phase algorithm, their app is crude (1/3 octave smoothing based changes), and DEQ is a solution to reduced bass below reference thanks to Audyssey’s EQ philosophy that results in other issues (boosted surround). Modern SOTA room EQ methods, namely Dirac, Room Perfect, and Trinnov, are mixed phase, which improves sound cohesion by operating in a time as well as frequency domain.

If you indeed are reverting to an 8805 rather than your MP-50 in your HT-oriented room, at least go with a MiniDSP solution with Dirac for your mains and sub(s). It won’t be Trinnov but you won’t be taking quite a potential step backwards in your immersion experience. And as you probably know, many of the more active Audyssey posters from the past decade have moved up to Dirac. There’s also a quite active 88A thread here on AVS, so you can get (free) support.

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- trnnov. The optimizer sounds fantastic. It has great HDMi switching and codec loading. Its very very close to marantz - the only reason Id rank the marantz ahead in stability is that the trinnov is a computer so has a long startup time (55 seconds), and you need to make sure you turn it off every 24h to prevent needing to power cycle it.
It’s a best practice to cycle, but it’s more conceptual to do a quick cycle off/on to be proactive for clearing logs. I do it the old fashioned way with my hands, but it can be automated on some control systems. IMO a small price to pay for a software rather than DSP-based platform.

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But being PC based, its very future proof - trinnov just downloads updartes/codecs to o you. The negatives are 1) control scheme. You can use a logitech harmony elite, other options are IP control which just ads to the cost.
VNC or Mocha VNC is free on a PC or iDevice, and Trinnov has a very new Mac app for iOS PCs that’s supposed to be simple to use. I haven’t seen it myself though.

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2) to get the most out of it, you really need to spemnd some time elarning about all it can do, or hire a profressional calibrater (adam pelz is favored in the altitude thread)
Yes, but with the Wizard on the A16, you can at least have a working start. You can reach out to Trinnov US support, AVSers via PM or better yet, pay for a few hours of time from a calibrator that can access your Altitude over VNC/IP. Curt Hoyt, a longtime partner in Trinnov and the original US contact for many AVSers before the Altitude was introduced, can work with you that way as well as on-site.

Adam has considerable skills and is the best known calibrator on AVS for Trinnov owners today thanks to his relatively prolific posting and top drawer knowledge (he’s a lead HAA instructor). But hiring him is an investment, and AFAIK is only done for in-home calibration. That part is your call, of course, but not the only option beyond being on your own.

At any rate, I’ll leave it there, since this is veering way OT.

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and of course 3) cost.
All is relative. Price/value is personal.

For the record, if you had to choose between the MP-50 and 8805, I personally would prioritize the SQ and stick with the Lyngdorf. But as always YMMV.
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post #2894 of 3012 Old 07-06-2019, 09:09 PM
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A quite comprehensive, interesting, and positive review of the MP-50 here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post58264886



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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Is there room in your boat? I feel the same and I'm even closer to the screen.

Same here.

Though I did end up going 4k because it seems that Atmos soundtracks are mostly exclusive to 4k movies.



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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
I just had to set Apple TV 4K resolution at 4k HDR 30hz, otherwise ATV wants to connect at 4KHDR @60hz. All HDR material is currently 24 hz anyway including UHD bluray.

So why not have the ATV 4k send 4k/24 [edited] (which is what I did)?

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The HDMI 2.1 board will probably take you into the 8k era and there is no need to rush into it - although i had heard that they might not have to be sent back to Denmark anyway. "Later this year" is what they are predicting for the new boards...

I follow MP-50 news as close as I can, and have only seen that the unit has to be sent to Lyngdorf.

Also a few days ago it was posted (#9056) here https://www.avforums.com/threads/lyn...80956/page-302 that the new boards would be out at the end of the month.

Noah

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post #2895 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 03:07 AM
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madhuski, thanks for your report. My friend has had a StormAudio for four weeks, he sold Trinnov-16. According to him, the Storm is more reliable and sounds better than Trinnov-16. But as always, everyone struggles differently.
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post #2896 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 04:16 AM
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For me, I think I'm going to go back to the 8805 but I think in 4-5 years when my kids are older probably jump back into the trinnov.





hope this helps...


Madhu

I currently have a Marantz 8805 and I cannot see how it could be ranked anywhere near the Lyngdorf unless you are using metrics other than sound quality to determine the ranking. As far as remote control goes it has been faultless using Logitech Harmony system. I would add that IMO the MP50 is ahead of the pack in that its web interface instantly loads without issue and displays the full on-screen display on your iPad or laptop so that any adjustments can be made on the fly without interruption on the screen.

As far as Trinnov and Datasat go, other readers may be interested to note that a number of reviewers have reviewed all of these units in detail and this is a comparative summation by Widescreen Review:

"These products are now in a class of their own. While these are very expensive products, you can spend far more on products
that don’t produce as good of an overall result. There may be a reason for picking an alternate high-end processor like Datasat or
Trinnov, but those reasons would likely be related to setup capabilities. But sound quality isn’t among the reasons you may choose
one of those other processors. The MP-50 and SDA-2400 amplifiers are equal to or better than those other processors when it comes
to sound quality with RoomPerfect in use. WS "
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post #2897 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 05:21 AM
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I follow MP-50 news as close as I can, and have only seen that the unit has to be sent to Lyngdorf.

Also a few days ago it was posted (#9056) here https://www.avforums.com/threads/lyn...80956/page-302 that the new boards would be out at the end of the month.
The local distributor gave me the information about the upgrade. I assume he is in contact with Lyngdorf but I dont think anything has been finalised yet.
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post #2898 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 05:26 AM
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So why not have the ATV 4k send 4k/30 (which is what I did)?



I did that - I said "I just had to set Apple TV 4K resolution at 4k HDR 30hz"
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post #2899 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 11:29 AM
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I did that - I said "I just had to set Apple TV 4K resolution at 4k HDR 30hz"

My mistake; should have been "So why not have the ATV 4k send 4k/24 (which is what I did)?"

Noah
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post #2900 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 11:43 AM
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Is there room in your boat? I feel the same and I'm even closer to the screen.
1080P crew here as well!! I also care about the sound so much more than the video.
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post #2901 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
I currently have a Marantz 8805 and I cannot see how it could be ranked anywhere near the Lyngdorf unless you are using metrics other than sound quality to determine the ranking. As far as remote control goes it has been faultless using Logitech Harmony system. I would add that IMO the MP50 is ahead of the pack in that its web interface instantly loads without issue and displays the full on-screen display on your iPad or laptop so that any adjustments can be made on the fly without interruption on the screen.

As far as Trinnov and Datasat go, other readers may be interested to note that a number of reviewers have reviewed all of these units in detail and this is a comparative summation by Widescreen Review:

"These products are now in a class of their own. While these are very expensive products, you can spend far more on products
that don’t produce as good of an overall result. There may be a reason for picking an alternate high-end processor like Datasat or
Trinnov, but those reasons would likely be related to setup capabilities. But sound quality isn’t among the reasons you may choose
one of those other processors. The MP-50 and SDA-2400 amplifiers are equal to or better than those other processors when it comes
to sound quality with RoomPerfect in use. WS "

Who are "the number of reviewers" other than this one review in Widescreen Review, at least in English?
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post #2902 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 12:03 PM
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Comparing the Lyngdorf and RoomPerfect to Dirac Live, ARC, Audyssey and YPAO, in blind and sighted testing, the MP-50 was my preference by a rather large margin. I posted a long list of all the processors and receivers I tested somewhere in this thread.

When focusing on the bass and sat to sub integration, impact, tightness(lol, no idea what to call this) and just the overall bass, nothing came close to the MP-50 in my room. I primarily tested with music because I found that if you get it right for multiple genres of music, movies are a piece of cake in comparison.

The well-designed and easy to use web interface is a really great feature. Also the noise floor is the lowest I've tested, by a huge margin compared to the Anthem and NAD processors. It has anti-pop circuits as well, something missing from just about every other processor I've had. I haven't tested a Trinnov yet, but I'm sure it would perform exceptionally.

The fact that the "Voicings" are placed after RP, means you can make precise adjustments to the sound after it's been corrected. This is not just changing a target curve that get's smoothed ala Dirac, ARC, Audyssey etc. As far as I know, only Trinnov (and Storm?) allow filters after room correction.

Of course, this is just my experience. My wife did agree as well in a few blind tests, but she's never had a hearing test, so I'm not sure how relevant that is.

My non-subjective assessment is that at the very least, the MP-50 has a very polished and easy-to-use "high end" experience. I haven't had a single operational issue using a Harmony Elite remote, or any HDMI or sound issues. The only issue I experienced was the low-frequency rolloff that was corrected with a firmware update. Steinway Lyngdorf's typical customer is not one to tinker with a hundred settings and deal with bugs and issues.

Each product undergoes a 48 hour burn-in before the final QC check. Compare that to other boutique venders like Emotiva where customers are getting units with demo Dolby chips that ding every 60 seconds .
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Last edited by duckymomo; 07-07-2019 at 02:25 PM.
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post #2903 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
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The only limitation I can see compared to the Trinnov is non-matrixed channel count and the ability to tweak, tweak some more, and then tweak those tweaks. It also is a software solution vs DSP chipset. It really is a future proof product for some time. I have been going back on forth on the two but I am going to go with the Lyngdorf and sell my Marantz 8805. I will probably wait until they are shipping with the new HDMI boards unless my dealer gives me a deal I can't refuse. I have no plans to go beyond 7.x.4 and I am really over tweaking at this point. I have yet to find a negative review of RP.
Yes, the MP50 doesn't have the ultimate tweaking ability of some other units. But what it has is more than enough for me at this stage and into the foreseeable future. I wrestled with the idea of waiting for the new HDMI board but after being offered a great deal by my dealer, and combined with my impatience , I jumped at it. The current board doesn't limit its performance so I have no complaints.
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post #2904 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 08:51 PM
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My mistake; should have been "So why not have the ATV 4k send 4k/24 (which is what I did)?"
Actually I tried that briefly. My thinking was that 30 hz might make non 4k 30/60hz material translate better to UHD, while 24hz 4k and 1080P material will still be played as such with the ATV video settings set to use native frame-rate.
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post #2905 of 3012 Old 07-07-2019, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
My thinking was that 30 hz might make non 4k 30/60hz material translate better to UHD, while 24hz 4k and 1080P material will still be played as such with the ATV video settings set to use native frame-rate.

I'm confused; are you sending 4k/24 or native?

Noah
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post #2906 of 3012 Old 07-08-2019, 12:52 AM
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I'm confused; are you sending 4k/24 or native?
Apple TV doesn't do native resolution automatically, only native frame rate and dynamic range (if you select the options). So with 4k @30Hz selected , all 4K content still passes through as 4K @24 hz. When i did select 4K 24 hz output, I thought I saw slight juddering when scrolling through menus so I switched to 30hz. Now I dont know if it was indeed a problem or just needed a reboot, I didn't spend too much time on it. I would be interested in your observations on this too.

BTW, For non-4k material I force the ATV ( and all other devices) to output at the native resolution of the material. This is because my projector ( Sony 760ES/885ES) does a better job of upscaling the material than the source devices do.
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post #2907 of 3012 Old 07-08-2019, 10:34 AM
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Interesting, thanks; that somewhat lessens my confusion at ATV 4k output selections, whose descriptions I find ambiguous/contradictory.

I haven't noticed any judder, but I'm insensitive to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post
Apple TV doesn't do native resolution automatically, only native frame rate and dynamic range (if you select the options). So with 4k 30Hz selected , all 4K content still passes through as 4K @24 hz. When i did select 4K 24 hz output, I thought I saw slight juddering when scrolling through menus so I switched to 30hz. Now I dont know if it was indeed a problem or just needed a reboot, I didn't spend too much time on it. I would be interested in your observations on this too.

Noah

Last edited by noah katz; 07-08-2019 at 10:37 AM.
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post #2908 of 3012 Old 07-08-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quick question about the MP-50 - once you do the RoomPerfect calibration, is there a way to turn it off/on to compare? I only see global or focus, but not off. Let me know...


Thanks,


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post #2909 of 3012 Old 07-08-2019, 04:53 PM
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Quick question about the MP-50 - once you do the RoomPerfect calibration, is there a way to turn it off/on to compare? I only see global or focus, but not off. Let me know...


Thanks,


Dave
You just press bypass

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post #2910 of 3012 Old 07-08-2019, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Quick question about the MP-50 - once you do the RoomPerfect calibration, is there a way to turn it off/on to compare? I only see global or focus, but not off. Let me know...


Thanks,


Dave
It's called bypass, but you have to enable show/display(?) bypass in the config or else it won't be an option. I'd show a screenshot but I don't have my MP-50 connected at the moment.
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