Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 98 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2911 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Are there any JBL M2 owners here? My only fear with RP is that I cannot control the range of correction i.e. "its all or nothing". The M2s are active equalized and having tuning files for the frequency response that I really don't want altered much, if any. @duckymono told me that RP doesn't do much in the upper range but I would like to see if anyone has the M2 with RP or has heard a RP system with M2s.


Chris
The active equalization (pre-EQ in JBL/Trinnov nomenclature) and RoomEQ do not interfere with one another and both are to your benefit. Simply run RoomPerfect normally. Once RoomPerfect has completed, you can then utilize voicings to tailor the response curve. You can also assign additional focus positions (MLPs). I prefer to utilize focus positions rather than rely on the global setting when hosting company.
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post #2912 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It's called bypass, but you have to enable show/display(?) bypass in the config or else it won't be an option. I'd show a screenshot but I don't have my MP-50 connected at the moment.
Hi Marc, I hope all is well!
When “Bypass” is invoked, exactly what is bypassed - just EQ or, as is sometimes the case, EQ+gains/delays?

Thx!
Ken
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post #2913 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 06:59 PM
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Hi Marc, I hope all is well!
When “Bypass” is invoked, exactly what is bypassed - just EQ or, as is sometimes the case, EQ+gains/delays?

Thx!
Ken
Gains are set by RP and the corrected sound is taken into account when they're calculated. So you would need different levels with RP off.

For delays, it appears they can only be entered/changed in the RP setup as "Focus" postions. Someone would have to test if the distance settings are still active in Bypass.
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post #2914 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Hi Marc, I hope all is well!

When “Bypass” is invoked, exactly what is bypassed - just EQ or, as is sometimes the case, EQ+gains/delays?



Thx!

Ken
Just the EQ is bypassed. Levels & delays remain. There is ~2-3 sec gap (muted) when switching between focus/global/bypass positions, upmixers, or voicings.
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post #2915 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Thanks Marc. You really should sell your processor to me instead of it collecting dust unplugged
I am considering acquiring an Altitude 16. I would have to sell the MP-50 and Bryston SP4 to make it happen. PM me.
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post #2916 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 11:11 PM
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I am considering acquiring an Altitude 16. I would have to sell the MP-50 and Bryston SP4 to make it happen. PM me.
Why are you selling the MP60, if you don't mind me asking?

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post #2917 of 3050 Old 07-08-2019, 11:59 PM
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why are you selling the mp60, if you don't mind me asking?

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post #2918 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 12:15 AM
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I am considering acquiring an Altitude 16. I would have to sell the MP-50 and Bryston SP4 to make it happen. PM me.


Can we conclude that the Storm did not outperform the MP50 in your evaluation?
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post #2919 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Are there any JBL M2 owners here? My only fear with RP is that I cannot control the range of correction i.e. "its all or nothing". The M2s are active equalized and having tuning files for the frequency response that I really don't want altered much, if any. @duckymono told me that RP doesn't do much in the upper range but I would like to see if anyone has the M2 with RP or has heard a RP system with M2s.


Chris

Room Perfect is an object based DSP system and while it does pay attention to frequency response , it isn't what the system is all about. if the M2's are equalised at the reference points then I doubt RP will adjust it anyway.
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post #2920 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BassMojo View Post
Can we conclude that the Storm did not outperform the MP50 in your evaluation?
Nope.

The Storm/Bryston is worth the premium over the Lyngdorf for me. The Storm bass management is even more flexible than I imagined. Dirac is easier to get a perfect calibration than RoomPerfect.

My plan is to test the MP-50 in my downstairs den (currently a NAD M15HD w/Dirac) which has many hard surfaces and no treatments. I suspect RoomPerfect will outperform Dirac here.

Family health issues the last few months. have prevented me from doing any head-to-head comparisons. It will at least another few weeks.

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Room Perfect is an object based DSP system
You lost me. Not sure what you mean or where you got this. Please clarify.

RoomPerfect prioritizes the time-domain response. It has no knowledge of any objects AFAIC. What objects are you referring to? Object-based codecs (Atmos)? RoomPerfect is fully agnostic to codecs (it processes PCM only).
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post #2921 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 10:24 AM
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Family health issues the last few months. have prevented me from doing any head-to-head comparisons. It will at least another few weeks.
I hope that your family's health improves quickly.
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post #2922 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
...My plan is to test the MP-50 in my downstairs den (currently a NAD M15HD w/Dirac) which has many hard surfaces and no treatments. I suspect RoomPerfect will outperform Dirac here.

In my family room/dining/kitchen combo great room with no room treatments, I have found RoomPerfect to work better than DL and Aud. I'm not sure if Trinnov would do any better than RP in a room like mine. If/when you get a Trinnov, it would be great feedback for folks like me if you compared the two in your den. I know that's a lot of work though.




Thanks,
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post #2923 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 11:51 AM
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I hope that your family's health improves quickly.
Ditto
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post #2924 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 01:23 PM
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Dirac is easier to get a perfect calibration than RoomPerfect.

I had the impression that Dirac, in all mfgr's implementations, required quite a bit of fussing around; is Storm's implementation different?

I hope the health issues resolve quickly.
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post #2925 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 02:56 PM
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What is the MSRP of the MP50 and any other tools (mic or software)?

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post #2926 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 03:09 PM
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What is the MSRP of the MP50 and any other tools (mic or software)?



MSRP is $9,999 - comes with everything you need

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post #2927 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Nope.


You lost me. Not sure what you mean or where you got this. Please clarify.

RoomPerfect prioritizes the time-domain response. It has no knowledge of any objects AFAIC. What objects are you referring to? Object-based codecs (Atmos)? RoomPerfect is fully agnostic to codecs (it processes PCM only).

I think you made my point. Time-domain optimisation is critical to object based audio and is different to frequency response equalisation, even though FR is examined by Room perfect. In terms of the expression I used - I just picked it up from reviewers and it seems to get to the point quickly rather than go through the steps that get you there. Cepro also classified it as an object based surround component.
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post #2928 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
Time-domain optimisation is critical to object based audio and is different to frequency response equalisation, even though FR is examined by Room perfect.
What does time-domain optimization have to do with object-based audio? Why wouldn't time domain optimization be just as critical to channel-based audio?

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post #2929 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
I think you made my point.
If you think I did it was purely accidental as I don't understand your point.
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Cepro also classified it as an object based surround component.
RoomPerfect? Do you have a link?
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post #2930 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 09:14 PM
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What does time-domain optimization have to do with object-based audio? Why wouldn't time domain optimization be just as critical to channel-based audio?
Lets take a step back a bit. My original description was meant to broadly distinguish RoomPerfect from plain vanilla FR correction. In particular to distinguish from Audyssey whose DSX extraction methodology is not ideal for object based audio. Now I am happy to admit that there could have been better ways of describing the difference between RoomPerfect and plain FR equalisation techniques but even the term "Time based" doesnt do RP justice either. I did attempt to read technical details about RP a while ago but the level of complexity saw me tactfully retreat. As we know, the patents that apply to RP are based on substantial filing applications covering 5 patents.

I think its useful to have a "headline" title to broadly distinguish between RP and by extension Dirac from older techs like Audyssey. Those more knowledgable would have it nailed down anyway but most people ( including me up until recently) have only had experience with Audyssey or similar . I'm open to suggestions.

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post #2931 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 10:24 PM
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My original description was meant to broadly distinguish RoomPerfect from plain vanilla FR correction. In particular to distinguish from Audyssey whose DSX extraction methodology is not ideal for object based audio.
Audyssey DSX is surround processing that generates (not extracts) reverb and early reflections to simulate concert hall acoustics. It's completely unrelated to room correction, which itself is unrelated to object-based audio. It's like you're writing using a random word generator that inserts arbitrary technical terms into your post. For future reference, Audyssey's room correction system is called MultEQ. By comparison, DSX is room simulation technology, like Yamaha DSP modes.
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I think its useful to have a "headline" title to broadly distinguish between RP and by extension Dirac from older techs like Audyssey.
Agreed. So, without getting too technical, what broadly distinguishes RoomPerfect from Audyssey?
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post #2932 of 3050 Old 07-09-2019, 10:39 PM
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For future reference, Audyssey's room correction system is called MultEQ.
Duh!
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
It's like you're writing using a random word generator that inserts arbitrary technical terms into your post. Agreed. So, without getting too technical, what broadly distinguishes RoomPerfect from Audyssey?
I'm Not interested in indulging your condescension
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
I think its useful to have a "headline" title to broadly distinguish between RP and by extension Dirac from older techs like Audyssey.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Agreed. So, without getting too technical, what broadly distinguishes RoomPerfect from Audyssey?
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I'm Not interested in indulging your condescension
What if I said you could use random technical terms?

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post #2935 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 05:33 AM
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I had the impression that Dirac, in all mfgr's implementations, required quite a bit of fussing around; is Storm's implementation different?
Dirac Live should be fairly consistent across all platforms (those which support 2.x at least). I'm not sure exactly of what you are referring to as "fussing around". The number of available DL calibration storage slots seems to be the most common complaint I've come across. In this regard I do believe that StormAudio's implementation of Dirac Live is head-&-shoulders above any others.

Because RoomPerfect does not auto-detect or validate distance/delay, for best results RoomEQ Wizard should be used to set & validate the distances/delays. This is not well documented [if at all] by Lyngdorf. It is not necessary with Dirac Live. Lyngdorf's marketing of RoomPerfect makes it seem much simpler to dial-in properly than it actually is. I'm not surprised if and when some are left unimpressed after a quick trial of the MP-50.

I do find RoomPerfect superior to Dirac Live but that gap is closing. Dirac Live is continually evolving while RoomPerfect has not changed in many years. There are scenarios in which I would recommend RoomPerfect above Dirac and others in which I feel that it's a wash.

{Disclaimer - I will be offering calibration services for RoomPerfect very soon.}
I believe that there is plenty of room for improvement in many currently deployed and planned "self-installed" systems here in the US. Even though RoomPerfect is marketed otherwise.
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post #2936 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
What is the MSRP of the MP50 and any other tools (mic or software)?
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
MSRP is $9,999 - comes with everything you need
A laser measuring device is needed but not included. (Bosch Blaze GLM 20 is currently 40% of list at retailers!)

For best results, a USB audio interface or USB microphone and Room EQ Wizard may be used. This is not a requirement. In lieu, precise DSP delay measurement from your subwoofer manufacturer is needed. The delay must be converted to distance and added to your measurements prior to running RoomPerfect. This is mysteriously absent from all MP-50 documentation (but exists in some form in the docs for all other Lyngdorf Audio processors).
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post #2937 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tassop View Post
I think its useful to have a "headline" title to broadly distinguish between RP and by extension Dirac from older techs like Audyssey.
No offense intended, but it is the opposite of useful when a "headline" or any post is grossly inaccurate. It only serves to confuse.
Quote:
Lets take a step back a bit. My original description was meant to broadly distinguish RoomPerfect from plain vanilla FR correction. In particular to distinguish from Audyssey whose DSX extraction methodology is not ideal for object based audio.
Even Audyssey MultiEQ is for from plain vanilla FR correction.

Often when misinformation is questioned and/or corrected here it is taken as condension. Please don't take it as such. All forum participation is valid and valuable. I am here to learn primarily. I contribute in areas in which I feel confidently competent.

When you are using the term "object based audio", I'm not sure you exactly what you are meaning. If you could expound on that a bit maybe the forum can help clear up some confusion [for you and/or others].
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post #2938 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 06:32 AM
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I do believe that StormAudio's implementation of Dirac Live is head-&-shoulders above any others.
In what ways does it differ? I used two different Dirac Live products and found their implementation nearly identical. With that said, I think this is the Achilles heel of Dirac Live. There is a lack of standardization and quality control/verification of their licensed vendors. Lets take Arcam for example. How did Dirac Live allow them to get the bass management backwards? That was a huge black eye for not only Arcam but for Dirac Live as well. This should not be. Personally, I think the likes of Storm and Datasat are in serious trouble. Emotiva and Monoprice are going to be a huge disrupters for them once the bugs are sorted out with onboard Dirac Live and 16+ channels.
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post #2939 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 06:52 AM
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In what ways does it differ? I used two different Dirac Live products and found their implementation nearly identical.
You are correct, and that was the point I was trying to make. The difference is in the storage and application of filters, in which the possibilities within StormAudio's implementation are infinite. You can even have two separate 16 channel rooms playing the same decoded source but with unique DL filters for each room/channel. 32 unique EQ filters.
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For each Theater, Sub-Theater, and zone, you can save multiple profiles for different listening preferences. Profiles can be recalled as part of presets. A profile includes the following information: Speaker definition (multiway, levels, delays), bass management, manual EQ, and Dirac filter design if applied. Some clients have different EQ profiles based on the type of content they listen to e.g. movies vs. music.
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Personally, I think the likes of Storm and Datasat are in serious trouble. Emotiva and Monoprice are going to be a huge disrupters for them once the bugs are sorted out with onboard Dirac Live and 16+ channels.
StormAudio and Trinnov are so far ahead in software development and refinement and can't see Emotiva or Monoprice ever coming close for the system integration space. Emotiva and Monoprice will compete with Marantz, Yamaha, and NAD... not StormAudio or Trinnov.

What missteps has Dirac made aside from or since the Arcam bass-management implementation? I put that one on Arcam but I can see your point that Dirac allowed it.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 07-10-2019 at 06:56 AM.
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post #2940 of 3050 Old 07-10-2019, 07:02 AM
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You are correct, and that was the point I was trying to make. The difference is in the storage and application of filters, in which the possibilities within StormAudio's implementation are infinite. You can even have two separate 16 channel rooms playing the same decoded source but with unique DL filters for each room/channel. 32 unique EQ filters.

StormAudio and Trinnov are so far ahead in software development and refinement and can't see Emotiva or Monoprice ever coming close for the system integration space. Emotiva and Monoprice will compete with Marantz and Yamaha. Not StormAudio or Trinnov.

What missteps has Dirac made aside from or since the Arcam bass-management implementation? I put that one on Arcam but I can see your point that Dirac allowed it.

None that I am aware of, but if we look at the total number of home audio vendors Arcam, NAD, MiniDSP, Storm, and Datasat we have a 20% failure rate thus far I agree the Datasat and Storm are better processors, but I believe that most people choose them for their channel count, not their DACs and filters. I am not saying they aren't better; I am asking will the majority care for the subtle differences once more options are available? When there are more Dirac Live options with higher channel counts, will they spend the extra $10-$15k for the minor sonic advantages? Only time will tell, but I think they are going to be in trouble at their current price points. Trinnov is unique to itself, I was primarily speaking about Dirac Live vendors.
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lyngdorf , mp-50 , owner's , processor , surround

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