Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles - Page 99 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2941 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Personally, I think the likes of Storm and Datasat are in serious trouble.
Re: Datasat
While the Datasat LS10 [and Trinnov A16] are for home cinema the Datasat RS20i is a cinema processor for commercial theaters that can also be utilized in home cinemas. The same goes for the Trinnov Altitude 32. It can be built out and licensed for either commercial or home cinema. I'm not sure if the StormAudio platform is used in commercial cinemas but I suspect that is a goal.

I just don't think Emotiva and Monoprice are high on the radar. I classify these ≤$5k SSPs as self-install. The margins on these a paper thin. These companies don't make money on these processors. They make the money by selling the accompanying amplifiers.
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post #2942 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Re: Datasat
While the Datasat LS10 [and Trinnov A16] are for home cinema the Datasat RS20i is a cinema processor for commercial theaters that can also be utilized in home cinemas. The same goes for the Trinnov Altitude 32. It can be built out and licensed for either commercial or home cinema. I'm not sure if the StormAudio platform is used in commercial cinemas but I suspect that is a goal.
Beats me what StormAudio might be doing, but the Datasat RS20i is based on the AP20, which was a cinema processor. The difference is that the Datasat is rendering home A/V multi-channel 2D audio and 3D audio within its 11 channel limit.

While there are certainly uber-hi end Trinnov owners that are running personal multi-row cinemas that could be almost as big as some screening rooms or (very) small commercial cinema rooms, and a few that are using the 48ext add-on processor that Trinnov rolled out with digital AES output to go beyond 32 channels earlier this year to 48 discrete outputs, the Altitude is still rendering the home A/V version of Atmos and other codecs, not the cinema. I doubt that someone could use the Altitude for commercial cinema, as it would directly compete with Dolby's cinema Atmos processor, the CP850, plus the way that the standard is different (i.e. number of objects supported, how speaker arrays are used).

In addition, Trinnov does have its own cinema processor, the Ovation, which can work with external servers I think from what I've read. Not sure whether from the description the new Ovation2 could be theoretically used as an intermediate processor between a commercial cinema renderer and amps. Maybe one of the hard-core technogeeks could answer that one.

https://www.trinnov.com/ovation2/

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post #2943 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
None that I am aware of, but if we look at the total number of home audio vendors Arcam, NAD, MiniDSP, Storm, and Datasat we have a 20% failure rate thus far
You have to consider the audience. MiniDSP's Dirac solutions are aimed at DIYers, while NAD is somewhere between a dealer and CI product. Datasat is effectively a legacy nameplate for ATI these days in the consumer area; I thought they'd rolled out or were planning a successor to the AP20 for commerical use?

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I agree the Datasat and Storm are better processors, but I believe that most people choose them for their channel count, not their DACs and filters.
You mean what "most custom integrators" would choose; isn't that Storm's core audience, some enthusiasts on AVS and the British forum aside? Also, it's not all about high channel count, it's also about being able to support active crossovers for n-way speakers as well as subs.

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I am not saying they aren't better; I am asking will the majority care for the subtle differences once more options are available? When there are more Dirac Live options with higher channel counts, will they spend the extra $10-$15k for the minor sonic advantages? Only time will tell, but I think they are going to be in trouble at their current price points. Trinnov is unique to itself, I was primarily speaking about Dirac Live vendors.
Other than us, who shops for a processor based on room EQ? IMO that extra $10-$15K for the kind of folks buying these products is just a bucket item in some high budget room. At least that's what the reps at CEDIA will tell you .

I agree Trinnov is unique, with their PC/software architecture, levels of bass management and flexible high(er) channel count, even if you leave the Optimizer's feature set aside. From a technical perspective, there's really no reason for a consumer to buy anything else if you have the money with the exception of a) staying within an integrated product line like Steinway-Lyngdorf has or b) maybe ease of use if you're an integrator and want the monitoring features in the Storm, and/or don't want to spend the training and time to support the Altitude. Or you're just sold on the awesomeness of the awesome brand and like whatever you're selling .

Everybody else for the intermediate-term future is competing on budget and relationships with distributors driving sales. At least in my somewhat biased opinion .

To be back to the thread: I'm not dissing the MP-50. If you're a fan of Room Perfect, what it does philsophically for speaker/sub integration, and the voicings, it's for you. Just speaking from my own meta perspective.

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post #2944 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I just don't think Emotiva and Monoprice are high on the radar. I classify these ≤$5k SSPs as self-install. The margins on these a paper thin. These companies don't make money on these processors. They make the money by selling the accompanying amplifiers.
...and if the tortures of the damned (LOL) on the RMC-1 thread for HDMI sync and odd audio watermark chrips being heard are any indication, it's still not ready for prime time and doesn't support Dirac Live yet. What Monoprice is actually rolling out and how it will be supported is still TBD. Not disagreeing with you that these are companies rolling out complimentary products to their main mission, which is about amps. You can't fault them for wanting to sell complete systems of sorts, though.

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post #2945 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Dirac Live should be fairly consistent across all platforms (those which support 2.x at least). I'm not sure exactly of what you are referring to as "fussing around".

From what I gathered, a lot of time spent to get satisfactory results, which I presume meant several setup iterations.


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Because RoomPerfect does not auto-detect or validate distance/delay, for best results RoomEQ Wizard should be used to set & validate the distances/delays...The delay must be converted to distance and added to your measurements prior to running RoomPerfect.

Why do all that when you can measure the distance directly with a laser device?

Though not so much for the sub.

Noah

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post #2946 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
There is a lack of standardization and quality control/verification of their licensed vendors.
Implementations have varied slightly for different licensees, but that should change with Dirac Live 2.0, which is intended to be consistent across all platforms.
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Lets take Arcam for example. How did Dirac Live allow them to get the bass management backwards?
Don't know if they have control over that. They can certify that their technology works to spec for each manufacturer's implementation. They can recommend where in the signal flow to place Dirac. But they can't force the manufacturer to do that. For example, if you use a miniDSP nanoAVR between your player and receiver, it will apply 8 channels of Dirac to the 7.1-channel signal coming from the player, but bass management will be applied afterwards in the receiver (to an already Dirac'd signal). Nothing Dirac can do about that.

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post #2947 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Why do all that when you can measure the distance directly with a laser device?
What you want isn't distance, or a delay based only on distance, but acoustic delay, which encompasses distance plus speaker or sub group delay plus processing delay due to RC filter application. This total delay can best be determined acoustically.
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post #2948 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 11:36 AM
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Great info @sdrucker . I was reading some Altitude 32 marketting fluff and missed an important distinction.
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the optimizertechnology is used across the entire film production chain, from mixing facilities such as Fox Studio's in Hollywood, to commercial theatres such as UGC in Normandy, France. 
I've decided that the Trinnov for me would be the Altitude 32 and not the 16. It's just not worth me trading both the Bryston SP4 and Lyngdorf MP-50 for an A16. The SP4 does everything I need and more.
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post #2949 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
What you want isn't distance, or a delay based only on distance, but acoustic delay, which encompasses distance plus speaker or sub group delay plus processing delay due to RC filter application. This total delay can best be determined acoustically.

Leaving subs aside, is there really significant delay at midrange freq in the main speakers?

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post #2950 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 12:06 PM
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Right decision, Altitude 16 does not work on the good resolution of StormAudio and Altitude 32.
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post #2951 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Leaving subs aside, is there really significant delay at midrange freq in the main speakers?
Noah, in my current setup (Active 2.3), the Trinnov breaks my delays down as follows:

Processing latency: 64.2ms
Acoustic delay (loudspeaker distance): 10ms

This should be fairly typical for any mixed-phase RC e.g. Trinnov and Dirac.
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post #2952 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Great info @sdrucker . I was reading some Altitude 32 marketting fluff and missed an important distinction.

I've decided that the Trinnov for me would be the Altitude 32 and not the 16. It's just not worth me trading both the Bryston SP4 and Lyngdorf MP-50 for an A16. The SP4 does everything I need and more.
Depends - are you planning on having two rooms controlled by one processor (i.e. with multiple switchable presets), have multi-way speakers that need more than 16 outputs, or see yourself doing channel expansion down the road?

There's a few other nice features on the A32 (DB-25 output, AES output, RCA 7.1 ADC input, as well as the 192 kHz native sample rate processing for up to 16 channels for native content or DSU upmix at the moment) but they're not deal breakers for some folks.

Anyway this really belongs on a different thread.

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post #2953 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Right decision, Altitude 16 does not work on the good resolution of StormAudio and Altitude 32.
The StormAudio operates at 48kHz (everything is digital processed currently, no bypass), the A16 and MP-50 (effectively) at 96kHz, and the A32 at 192kHz.

What are you referring to?
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post #2954 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Noah, in my current setup (Active 2.3), the Trinnov breaks my delays down as follows:

Processing latency: 64.2ms

Is that for the Trinnov and/or speakers?

My question was aimed at the XO circuitry in the latter, whose passive function I wouldn't classify as processing.

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post #2955 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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Right decision, Altitude 16 does not work on the good resolution of StormAudio and Altitude 32.
Benchmark racing, what a fun and expensive sport! When I start entertaining bats, dogs, and dolphins, I will start worrying about the inadequacies of 24/96 vs 24/192.
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post #2956 of 3010 Old 07-10-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The StormAudio operates at 48kHz (everything is digital processed currently, no bypass), the A16 and MP-50 (effectively) at 96kHz, and the A32 at 192kHz.

What are you referring to?
I am referring to my own experience. I doubt if you hear the differences in the blind test 48/96/192 and most contents are in 48.
My friend switched from Trinnov 16 to StormAudio and sang, the Storm plays as I expected from Trinnov 16.
Trinnov also cooks with water, not dazzle.

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post #2957 of 3010 Old 07-11-2019, 07:13 AM
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No argument to be had, the Trinnov32 is a superior platform.

Yes that is her.
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post #2958 of 3010 Old 07-13-2019, 01:30 PM
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Wondering how much improvement I would hear with the MP50 as compared to my current Marantz 8805 - all things being equal in my theater. I've read great things about Room Perfect and am wondering if the MP50 alone would be "as good" of an upgrade as say...new speakers. I already have a full Triad Gold 7.2 (JTR subs) in my theater, so the speakers I have are up to the task - and do sound incredible. It's also a very well treated room.

Thoughts? I know the MSRP on the MP50 is up there, but if I get a decent price on one and don't have to sell my speakers (and buy new ones), it could be worth it. I'm looking for that "holographic" sound that I keep reading about - i.e. sounds floating around the room. The 8805 does a pretty good job at this, but wondering how much better the MP50 would be.


Also - side note - this is my 1,000th post! It only took me 19 years! I guess the math on that equates to one post a week. Any more I would probably be broke.
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post #2959 of 3010 Old 07-13-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Wondering how much improvement I would hear with the MP50 as compared to my current Marantz 8805 - all things being equal in my theater. I've read great things about Room Perfect and am wondering if the MP50 alone would be "as good" of an upgrade as say...new speakers. I already have a full Triad Gold 7.2 (JTR subs) in my theater, so the speakers I have are up to the task - and do sound incredible. It's also a very well treated room.

Thoughts? I know the MSRP on the MP50 is up there, but if I get a decent price on one and don't have to sell my speakers (and buy new ones), it could be worth it. I'm looking for that "holographic" sound that I keep reading about - i.e. sounds floating around the room. The 8805 does a pretty good job at this, but wondering how much better the MP50 would be.


Also - side note - this is my 1,000th post! It only took me 19 years! I guess the math on that equates to one post a week. Any more I would probably be broke.

I know it’s YMMV, but for 9 channels so think you’d be going deep into diminishing returns to go from the 8805 to the Mp50
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post #2960 of 3010 Old 07-13-2019, 04:10 PM
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I know it’s YMMV, but for 9 channels so think you’d be going deep into diminishing returns to go from the 8805 to the Mp50
Just so I'm understanding - because I know you've had both - you're saying the juice (i.e. much extra cash for the MP50) wouldn't be worth the squeeze in terms of a highly noticeable sound improvement given my setup, correct?

The 8805 sounds great, as you know, but always thinking of the next upgrade! I too, however, only go so far in how much more to spend for marginal improvement. As SteveH says, is it a full letter grade improvement or a half letter grade? And how much to get there?!?

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post #2961 of 3010 Old 07-13-2019, 09:12 PM
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With JTR subs and a well-treated room a MP-50 is probably not going to be a huge, marked improvement over the AV8805. Setting up dual-subs with Audyssey is more of an automated process than with RoomPerfect. Knowledge and adherence to Lyngdorf's boundary woofer guidelines and/or the use of an external subwoofer DSP w/Room EQ Wizard goes a long way. Assuming that RoomPerfect works the same as Audyssey or Dirac does not yield the greatest results.

IME a Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, or NAD flagship SSP w/pro-calibration is worth more than a MP-50 self installed by a relatively inexperienced user (most of us here in the US). RoomPerfect's value is greatest in imperfect, untreated rooms IMO & IME.
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post #2962 of 3010 Old 07-25-2019, 04:34 AM
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Good morning, I have noticed that since hooking up the HD Fury Vertex2 I have had audio problems while playing dolby vision and dolby atmos programs. What occurs is the sound will move to the wrong channel. For example, the voice in the center channel will move to the surround right. This has occurred multiple times and it is not repeatable when rewinding. My devices used are: LG OLED C8, ATV4K, McIntosh MX160, Audioquest Cables. I played with the vertex 2 settings and nothing fixes it. I have also played with the settings on my Processor and it still occurs with and without upmixing. I have not noticed this when watching UHD disks or 1080P. The HDFury tech support suggested that since ATV uses Dolby Atmos MAT it could be due to the processor not supporting that. I don’t necessarily believe that since I’ve never had this issue in the past. I would try and bypass the Vertex 2 to see if it goes away but I just had knee surgery yesterday and am not mobile. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
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post #2963 of 3010 Old 07-26-2019, 12:04 AM
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Don't use the HDFury between the AppleTV and SSP. Connect the ATV directly to the SSP configured for Custom Resolution 4k HDR (or Dolby Vision if supported by the display) 30Hz. Set both Match Dynamic Range and Match Frame Rate to ON.
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Don't use the HDFury between the AppleTV and SSP. Connect the ATV directly to the SSP configured for Custom Resolution 4k HDR (or Dolby Vision if supported by the display) 30Hz. Set both Match Dynamic Range and Match Frame Rate to ON.
I had done that and still had a ton of hdmi handshake issues.
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post #2965 of 3010 Old 07-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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I had done that and still had a ton of hdmi handshake issues.
Were your handshaking issues during the AppleTV home screen or when playing movie content? I think Mark gave good advice to try setting the AppleTV to 4k HDR 30 Hz or even SDR in order to test the movie that had audio issues.
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post #2966 of 3010 Old 07-29-2019, 03:50 PM
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Were your handshaking issues during the AppleTV home screen or when playing movie content? I think Mark gave good advice to try setting the AppleTV to 4k HDR 30 Hz or even SDR in order to test the movie that had audio issues.
It occurred whenever I would transition from Dolby Vision or HDR to Standard def. This occurred on all apps.
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post #2967 of 3010 Old 07-29-2019, 04:35 PM
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It occurred whenever I would transition from Dolby Vision or HDR to Standard def. This occurred on all apps.
If you wanted a slightly different suggestion for debugging your issue, I would suggest:
- directly connect the Apple TV
- set it to 4k SDR
- don't set the Match Content/leave them disabled (description of these is here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288 )
- play a movie where atmos appeared coming from the wrong speaker to see if it works without the Vertex2 being in the loop
- try it with vertex2 back in the loop to compare
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Originally Posted by cn256 View Post
If you wanted a slightly different suggestion for debugging your issue, I would suggest:
- directly connect the Apple TV
- set it to 4k SDR
- don't set the Match Content/leave them disabled (description of these is here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288 )
- play a movie where atmos appeared coming from the wrong speaker to see if it works without the Vertex2 being in the loop
- try it with vertex2 back in the loop to compare
I plan to try that this week! Thanks!
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post #2969 of 3010 Old 08-05-2019, 01:14 PM
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Does anyone know how MP50 implements 10 db LFE gain on lossless or lossy tracks? I've got a 10 db LFE gain difference between my Apple TV +Infuse/Plex, which outputs LPCM, and lossless audio tracks from my computer or Vero4k+ ( also Plex server )

I have the Vero4k+ which I use for Atmos audio tracks since ATV can't do passthrough.
LPCM and AC3/lossy audio from both these devices also including my computer, has 10 db higher LFE gain compared to the Lossless Dolby/Atmos and DTS tracks.

So I have to manually adjust the LFE for what device Im playing from. Not practical, but I'll guess I have to just stick to the lossless tracks and the Vero?

The movies are BD rips/MKV streamed through Plex on all devices. No transcoding or anything.

I'm a bit confused, Is this normal?
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post #2970 of 3010 Old 08-06-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoracle View Post
Does anyone know how MP50 implements 10 db LFE gain on lossless or lossy tracks? I've got a 10 db LFE gain difference between my Apple TV +Infuse/Plex, which outputs LPCM, and lossless audio tracks from my computer or Vero4k+ ( also Plex server )

I have the Vero4k+ which I use for Atmos audio tracks since ATV can't do passthrough.
LPCM and AC3/lossy audio from both these devices also including my computer, has 10 db higher LFE gain compared to the Lossless Dolby/Atmos and DTS tracks.

So I have to manually adjust the LFE for what device Im playing from. Not practical, but I'll guess I have to just stick to the lossless tracks and the Vero?

The movies are BD rips/MKV streamed through Plex on all devices. No transcoding or anything.

I'm a bit confused, Is this normal?
No, that's not normal in my experience.How are you measuring the LFE and channel levels?

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