"OFFICIAL" 2017 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 341 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10201 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
You're welcome. The link to the MK site actually describes their function as dipole but maybe this will explain tripole better:

pole" means firing in a direction for speakers.

Monopole (what most speakers are) fire sound in 1 direction. Often called a "Direct Radiator" because they fire sound directly at the listener.
Bipolar speakers fire sound in 2 directions. Often forwards and backwards so you get a back-echo some short time later, but sometimes they fire 90 degrees to each other.
Dipolar - these also fire in 2 directions, but usually along a wall and not directly at the listener. They became popular when ProLogic video tapes emerged. The guys at Dolby wanted rear speakers with indistinct sounds like wind/rain/noise, but DID NOT want you to be able to tell where the speaker was. So they wanted a speaker that only bounced sounds off of a wall. These speakers have fallen out of popularity with DVD's and 5.1 systems where you WANT your attention pulled to the speaker location. This is sometimes called a "indirect speaker".
Tripolar - these are a bit of a gimmick and non-standard. They often have 2 drivers fireing along a wall like a dipolar, and a third driver that fires out towards the listener like a monopole. Hence "Tri" pole which means 3. Sometimes there is a small switch to change the speaker from indirect to direct.

Not saying they might not actually work well in your space though so set them up and demo some Atmos material for yourself. The front firing monopole driver might help. Good luck.
Thanks. I'll report back once everything is up and running.
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post #10202 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rickrayl View Post
Thanks. I'll report back once everything is up and running.
Good deal.

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post #10203 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Unfortunately only HDMI can pass DD+, or at the very least there is no TV that can do so over optical.
iff you replace DD+ with "TrueHD", I agree with you
[edit: me wrong again]

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post #10204 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffChap View Post
If it works, then great. I was just cautioning him that he might not get Atmos based upon everything I've ever read or been told. My Denon manual specifically mentions using HDMI for Atmos sources, with no mention of optical. Personally, I've never tried it. Good to know it works.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
While S/PDIF can technically passthrough DD+ im not aware of any T.V. make that actually allows it so while technically accurate it's not practically accurate if that makes sense.

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post #10205 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rickrayl View Post
Nice to hear from someone making (roughly) the same switch. I couldn't convince myself to step up to the x6400h, so I'm a bit jealous, but I'm hoping the x4400h will treat me well.
After years of having Yamaha Aventage models, I went with the X4400H to go with my 75" X900F. Since my room limits me on anything more than a 5.1.4 setup the 4400 was a awesome choice at a great price.

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post #10206 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
After years of having Yamaha Aventage models, I went with the X4400H to go with my 75" X900F. Since my room limits me on anything more than a 5.1.4 setup the 4400 was a awesome choice at a great price.

I couldn't be happier with the sound in my HT
Captin, I very recently did the same thing, with thanks to several helpful people here.

Came from an X3400H, and while love both, I really appreciate the extra that the 2 addtl. channels provides (somewhat impaired hearing, and given my layout, it worked out wonderfully).

Enjoy!
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post #10207 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
While S/PDIF can technically passthrough DD+ im not aware of any T.V. make that actually allows it
Er, try every LG TV sold during the last few years?
[edit: wrong. I was thinking here of LG TV's ability to have different & better audio going out of HDMI ARC than out of optical. Many TVs share the same circuit with their S/PDIF output, so the capabilities of HDMI ARC is "capped" at the capabilities of the S/PDIF output]
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post #10208 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 04:26 PM
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Question Airplay 2 and Zone 2 Questions

New user, and not quite sure how to search for my query since it involves a couple of variants. I'm interested in purchasing the Denon AVR-X1400H receiver. My setup is a 5.1 system in my basement, and two speakers outside in my walkout patio. The rear surround speakers and outdoor speakers are hardwired behind the drywall to where I will install the receiver.

I envision a couple of different scenarios that I'm trying to figure out will work using Denon's two zone system.

#1 : Watching TV inside, and using Airplay 2 to stream audio outside.

#2 : Using Airplay 2 to stream audio inside only

#3 : Using Airplay 2 to stream the same audio inside and outside (I don't see a scenario where I'll play one piece of music inside and another outside, though I guess it's possible)

I'm concerned about this "Analog Input" signal impacting my ability to use Airplay 2 for the outside speakers as their own zone. I'm also curious about ease of using configuring menu so that outside speakers and inside speakers steam the same music simultaneously.

TYIA.
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post #10209 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Er, try every LG TV sold during the last few years?



It would make sense, if it turned out that no TV allowed it! But that is not the case! . However, I guess you were indeed not aware that all LGs do I mentioned "millions" in my earlier messages for good reason... hence the blaze of publicity for "Jack Ryan" being Amazon Prime's first dual Vision + Atmos programme last year. And to get double Dolby, currently, you need an LG TV. Atmos over DD+ works via both ARC and optical.
First I've heard of this; however, until other LG Owners confirm that their TV can pass DD+(Atmos) over optical and the AVR can process it, I'll remain skeptical.
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post #10210 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jason Anderson View Post
New user, and not quite sure how to search for my query since it involves a couple of variants. I'm interested in purchasing the Denon AVR-X1400H receiver. My setup is a 5.1 system in my basement, and two speakers outside in my walkout patio. The rear surround speakers and outdoor speakers are hardwired behind the drywall to where I will install the receiver.

I envision a couple of different scenarios that I'm trying to figure out will work using Denon's two zone system.

#1 : Watching TV inside, and using Airplay 2 to stream audio outside.

#2 : Using Airplay 2 to stream audio inside only

#3 : Using Airplay 2 to stream the same audio inside and outside (I don't see a scenario where I'll play one piece of music inside and another outside, though I guess it's possible)

I'm concerned about this "Analog Input" signal impacting my ability to use Airplay 2 for the outside speakers as their own zone. I'm also curious about ease of using configuring menu so that outside speakers and inside speakers steam the same music simultaneously.

TYIA.
Network audio streams are able to pass to Zone 2 on any Zone 2 capable model to include the X1400H. All of your listed scenarios are possible.
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post #10211 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Er, try every LG TV sold during the last few years?







It would make sense, if it turned out that no TV allowed it! But that is not the case! . However, I guess you were indeed not aware that all LGs do I mentioned "millions" in my earlier messages for good reason... hence the blaze of publicity for "Jack Ryan" being Amazon Prime's first dual Vision + Atmos programme last year. And to get double Dolby, currently, you need an LG TV. Atmos over DD+ works via both ARC and optical.
First off I don't need all the added self aggrandizing snark and smiley faces and that picture doesn't show an optical coax connection. Plus this is Otto Pylot's post in the C8 thread literally one post right below one of yours there on the 22nd of this month and you didn't challenge him on it:

Post #11764
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Originally Posted by calfcramp View Post
100 percent go through Arc. Dolby atmos will not pass through optical!

True. But ARC Atmos is lossy only, not lossless, if you can tell the difference.

I did find this though on my own in a Sonos forum (no thanks to you by the by) and it does show DD+ passthrough via optical but that's not mentioned in the DD+ FAQ PDF so I need more than that, your snark and a picture in the dark not displaying the actual connector type before I'm willing to say I'm now more aware as you put it. As far as I know along with several OLED owners in the C7 thread Dolby wont allow DD+ to be passed through digital coax due to the lack of HDCP protection. If this has changed I'd like to know. I've literally searched "optical cable" in both the last 2 years worth of OLED threads and no mention of the passthrough capability you're referencing. I also lived in the OLED owners threads following pretty much every post up until the C7 and this is the first I've heard of DD+ optical passthrough.
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post #10212 of 12282 Old 01-29-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
After years of having Yamaha Aventage models, I went with the X4400H to go with my 75" X900F. Since my room limits me on anything more than a 5.1.4 setup the 4400 was a awesome choice at a great price.



I couldn't be happier with the sound in my HT
Welcome to the Denon club. I see your a fellow Texan as well( my city is listed in my signature). I am by choice not by birth. I almost bought a Yamaha Aventage A20*0 series this time around but in the end I went with a Denon X4300H. Lots of smart and nice folks in the Yamaha threads. If you need any assistance let me or anyone else here know.
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post #10213 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 05:52 AM
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ok, firstly apologies if I used the wrong tone last night. I started by using the same form of words as JeffChap, thinking it would be a "fun" way of adding the information, but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't.

Genuinely surprised that this is news to people. Perhaps it is the fact that ARC is so difficult to get working, that comparitively few of us are in this situation?

However I'm at work at the moment and I can't do tests, and I feel I am in danger of conflating several different things:
  • LG TVs being "awkward" with ARC in general
  • I initially used Optical for my "TV audio output" because of this (and I'm sure I had DD+ working ok)
  • But then Jack Ryan was released, and I wanted DV and DA together, so I tried extra hard to get ARC working
  • I succeeded, and I got Atmos-inside-DD+ fully working over ARC-in-HDMI.
  • I believe, with the LG TVs, this is the only way to get (lossy) Atmos out of the internal apps, and this is DD+, and of course this is nothing new (to me)
  • My memory is that if you use Optical for your "TV audio output", you don't get Atmos but instead it "falls back" to DD+. With non-LG TVs, there's no DD+ over optical and you just get 1990's lossy DD.

I promise to test this tonight, but given the incredulousness from last night a) I'm now doubting myself!, and b) not sure what level of proof would help . A better photo of the front panel of the AVR is probably the best I could offer for now..

In the meantime, here are some links and refs I found quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_...nsumer_devices
Quote:
IEC 61937-3: defines how to transmit Dolby Digital (AC-3) and Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams via an IEC 60958/61937 (S/PDIF) interface. However, the S/PDIF interface has insufficient bandwidth to transport Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3) bitstreams at the 3.0Mbit/s datarate specified by HD DVD; lower datarates are possible.
Netflix and Amazon Prime both do use those "lower datarates", so it works (from my recollection).

That wiki page also goes on to say that with some equipment which do not recognise the DD+ bitstream, it is in danger of getting corrupted during transport. It's not implemented by many TV manufacturers.

But, it is by LG.

Next, Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater...plus_over_arc/
post by "snapilica2003" [Onkyo SR608 AVR]
Quote:
Firstly, the official spec of ARC (basically S/PDIF over HDMI) does not allow DD+. The spec was established before DD+ was even a thing. Only 5.1 DD and 5.1 DTS are supported. Now, technically, even though it's not in the spec, E-AC3 can be sent through ARC, as long as the bitrate is at or bellow 640kbps (the max bitrate allowed for standard 5.1 DD). And Netflix DD+ streams are under 640kbps so it should work.
post by "Djuganight" - he's having ARC-in-HDMI propblems, which meant his last sentence is actually the most helpful:
Quote:
I have a LG OLED55C8 and the internal neltflix app only plays sound over HDMI ARC if I have the TV set to PCM. If I put on Automatic I only get crackling noise. If I connect via Optical Audio Cable all works well and netflix sound is output as DD+
That's the best I can find from here for now, HTH.

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post #10214 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Unlike the Zone 2 HDMI Monitor output, Monitor 2 simply mirrors the source being passed to Monitor 1 (ie. video to the display with audio to the main zone speakers). The only way to pass audio+video via either Monitor 1 or Monitor 2 outputs is to change the <HDMI Audio Out> (p. 158 Owner's manual) from "AVR" to "TV" which in so doing will disable the audio from going to the main zone surround speakers.

Thanks for the reply - I guess that makes sense as they are called "Monitor" outputs - I may have to use a splitter on the zone 2 output or do something else.
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post #10215 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Welcome to the Denon club. I see your a fellow Texan as well( my city is listed in my signature). I am by choice not by birth. I almost bought a Yamaha Aventage A20*0 series this time around but in the end I went with a Denon X4300H. Lots of smart and nice folks in the Yamaha threads. If you need any assistance let me or anyone else here know.
I love the Yamaha Aventage series, and I still have my A2030 up and running just for the HD radio, which is why I stayed with it for so long. I never had a Yammy go bad, I usually gave them away to family members

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post #10216 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As noted on p. 243 (note 4) of the X2400H Owner's manual, the single Surround Back speaker will be silent when using the Dolby Surround upmixer; however, will work when using the DTS Neural:X upmixer.
Thanks for this. However, the actual result of this seems to prove differently. I have the back surround hooked up to the surround back left speaker terminal. Audysey detects the speaker as the back middle speaker as well. The problem is this speaker is only utilized when using Dolby + Nueral:X, and when I'm set to this, the left and right surround speakers are basically disabled! I hear a faint noise coming from them, but otherwise the surround sound is coming only from the one surround back speaker.

If I remove the upmixing, the surround sound goes back to only the surround left/right, and removes the center back.
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post #10217 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by scottyh73 View Post
Thanks for this. However, the actual result of this seems to prove differently. I have the back surround hooked up to the surround back left speaker terminal. Audysey detects the speaker as the back middle speaker as well. The problem is this speaker is only utilized when using Dolby + Nueral:X, and when I'm set to this, the left and right surround speakers are basically disabled! I hear a faint noise coming from them, but otherwise the surround sound is coming only from the one surround back speaker.

If I remove the upmixing, the surround sound goes back to only the surround left/right, and removes the center back.
If the surround speakers work when the Surround Back L is not used, then refer to post 5 of this thread and start doing the reset procedures.
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post #10218 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
If the surround speakers work when the Surround Back L is not used, then refer to post 5 of this thread and start doing the reset procedures.
Thanks JD! You've been very helpful. I'll give those a shot.
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post #10219 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
First I've heard of this; however, until other LG Owners confirm that their TV can pass DD+(Atmos) over optical and the AVR can process it, I'll remain skeptical.
To follow up on my post from lunchtime above. It is as above - possible, but not implemented on any TVs including my LG.

It doesn't work and I was wrong yesterday. Sorry again for misleading the thread. It wasn't intentional.

Memory plays tricks, and I now think I know what made me so sure yesterday that it did work.

I confused this display (which I get with HDMI ARC):


with this display (which I get using the TV's Optical out + ARC disabled on the Denon, and configured to use OPT1 for TV Audio):


ie, only one of them has two "+" signs and I didn't remember that they were different . The two displays are only 1 character different (albeit a vital character). I would suspect that "Djuganight" on Reddit made the same mistake.


I've edited some earlier posts to avoid misleading people catching up later, and will now go and flagilate myself, sorry again.
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post #10220 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
To follow up on my post from lunchtime above. It is as above - possible, but not implemented on any TVs including my LG.



It doesn't work and I was wrong yesterday. Sorry again for misleading the thread. It wasn't intentional.



Memory plays tricks, and I now think I know what made me so sure yesterday that it did work.



I confused this display (which I get with HDMI ARC):





with this display (which I get using the TV's Optical out + ARC disabled on the Denon, and configured to use OPT1 for TV Audio):





ie, only one of them has two "+" signs and I didn't remember that they were different . The two displays are only 1 character different (albeit a vital character). I would suspect that "Djuganight" on Reddit made the same mistake.





I've edited some earlier posts to avoid misleading people catching up later, and will now go and flagilate myself, sorry again.


Not the first time you have been wrong haha. Good on you for at least admitting you were wrong. I read your post from yesterday and cringed with angst as I knew you were completely wrong, but whatever.

DD+ is HDMI only, DD is optical. As someone who only uses optical and refuses to use ARC, I KNOW the limits of optical.

Have a good day


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post #10221 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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To follow up on my post from lunchtime above. It is as above - possible, but not implemented on any TVs including my LG.

It doesn't work and I was wrong yesterday. Sorry again for misleading the thread. It wasn't intentional.
Nor did I suspect that was the case. As I don't frequent the TV (LG) threads (Panasonic plasma here), I thought something might have changed, but then I figured I would have read it in one of the AVR threads if possible. Thanks for the correction and confirmation.
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post #10222 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 05:52 PM
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If the surround speakers work when the Surround Back L is not used, then refer to post 5 of this thread and start doing the reset procedures.
Tried a complete factory reset after the other resets didnt work. Unfortunately it is behaving in the exact same manner.

Would next steps be to contact Denon? I hope it's not a defective device. Everything else works just fine.
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post #10223 of 12282 Old 01-30-2019, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
To follow up on my post from lunchtime above. It is as above - possible, but not implemented on any TVs including my LG.



It doesn't work and I was wrong yesterday. Sorry again for misleading the thread. It wasn't intentional.



Memory plays tricks, and I now think I know what made me so sure yesterday that it did work.



I confused this display (which I get with HDMI ARC):




with this display (which I get using the TV's Optical out + ARC disabled on the Denon, and configured to use OPT1 for TV Audio):



ie, only one of them has two "+" signs and I didn't remember that they were different . The two displays are only 1 character different (albeit a vital character). I would suspect that "Djuganight" on Reddit made the same mistake.





I've edited some earlier posts to avoid misleading people catching up later, and will now go and flagilate myself, sorry again.
You weren't trying to mislead anyone. You're a smart person who thought you had actually demoed a feature so went all in defending it. I would have done the same thing. I did read everything you wrote out and linked afterwards plus I also found another poster in the C7 thread who said the same thing so my guess is they probably fell victim to the same double/single + sign on their receivers LED screen. The Reddit poster who claimed it only has those 2 Reddit posts and nothing else so they might have just opened the account for that response. Who knows. You did spur me on to learn more than I did before about DD+ with Atmos after I got over being torqued by your emoji, lol, and it is definitely possible using DD Plus JOC. AC-4 is suppposedly the next tool for compressing it even further than E-AC-3 so its coming sooner than later. Anyways no hard feelings as we all do our best to convey accurate information but we're all just human in the end. Good thing is I got more white paper downloads saved to my GDrive than i had before this. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Everything Denon.
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post #10224 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Tried a complete factory reset after the other resets didnt work. Unfortunately it is behaving in the exact same manner.

Would next steps be to contact Denon? I hope it's not a defective device. Everything else works just fine.
Yes.
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post #10225 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 07:17 AM
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Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
If the surround speakers work when the Surround Back L is not used, then refer to post 5 of this thread and start doing the reset procedures.
Update on this - it turns out this only happens with the Sat/Cable feed. I'm connected via HDMI to my receiver. The audio coming in is Dolby Digital, but when I add the neuro:x, I lose that sixth speaker. Smartcast (Arc), Firestick, and PS4 work as expected. Does this make sense why it wouldn't be working from a cable source?
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post #10226 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Update on this - it turns out this only happens with the Sat/Cable feed. I'm connected via HDMI to my receiver. The audio coming in is Dolby Digital, but when I add the neuro:x, I lose that sixth speaker. Smartcast (Arc), Firestick, and PS4 work as expected. Does this make sense why it wouldn't be working from a cable source?
As previously noted, the single SBL speaker should be active when using DTS Neural:X but not with Dolby Surround. Cable channels will sometimes pass 2CH audio over a 5CH audio stream such that with a 5.1 setup, audio is only heard from the Front L/R speakers and no simulation is possible as the AVR is seeing a 5CH signal; however, with a 6.1 setup and using DTS Neural:X, the SBL speaker should be active.
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post #10227 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 05:38 PM
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Well, I've been living with my X3400 for a few weeks now and I'm really loving how it sounds. I'm still listening to stereo music in Pure mode (for now...) It simply sounds drastically better.

As suggested, I finally did some fuddling with the REW (Room EQ Wizard) program this morning and I'll post a couple graphs. I was just concentrating on the 40-200hz range. I forgot to take a reading with XT32 in L/R bypass though!! I'll do that soon.

To Madmax: I did an XT32 calibration with my F12 Sub removed, but I got a similar result as last time with that 50-85hz range being scooped. I included that image below.

If any REWizards wanna chime in on what they see in the waterfall, I'm all ears...or eyes!
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post #10228 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 08:14 PM
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I noticed something today about my x6400h. The Audyssey light turns off and acts like it's not calibrated even though it is. I can see the unique distance and channel level settings it came up with during cal, but the light is off and Audyssey is greyed out in the menus. Has anyone else experienced this?
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post #10229 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I noticed something today about my x6400h. The Audyssey light turns off and acts like it's not calibrated even though it is. I can see the unique distance and channel level settings it came up with during cal, but the light is off and Audyssey is greyed out in the menus. Has anyone else experienced this?
This would occur if you were mucking around with the AMP ASSIGN setting after running Audyssey, which in doing so, would disable Audyssey. Return the AMP ASSIGN and speakers configured to the original setting when Audyssey was run and Audyssey will be enabled again.
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post #10230 of 12282 Old 01-31-2019, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalonso66 View Post
Well, I've been living with my X3400 for a few weeks now and I'm really loving how it sounds. I'm still listening to stereo music in Pure mode (for now...) It simply sounds drastically better.



As suggested, I finally did some fuddling with the REW (Room EQ Wizard) program this morning and I'll post a couple graphs. I was just concentrating on the 40-200hz range. I forgot to take a reading with XT32 in L/R bypass though!! I'll do that soon.



To Madmax: I did an XT32 calibration with my F12 Sub removed, but I got a similar result as last time with that 50-85hz range being scooped. I included that image below.



If any REWizards wanna chime in on what they see in the waterfall, I'm all ears...or eyes!
That dip close to 100HZ without the sub might be speaker placement related to proximity to the back wall causing cancellations of that frequency at 1/4 wavelength from the back wall. SBIR explained here. Not very well informed on reading waterfall graphs so the REW help thread might be a better source of knowledge there.

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