"OFFICIAL" 2017 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 351 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10501 of 12286 Old 02-26-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
^ Thanks guys. Not the source level (they're all at 0dB), it still gets limited to -5.5dB as long as DTS:X is enabled. Not the speaker setup etc. etc., it's only very specific soundtracks where I've needed to raise the volume this high, maybe 3 times in the slightly over a year I've had the X4400, that's why I kind of ignored it. It's not Audyssey (my 11th year using it), I use REW and my room is "fully treated"...I know what's going on with all that stuff. It is definitely the selecting DTS:X, and I played with it a bit more, and the overall volume is significantly louder when DTS:X is not selected (so no need to even get near the -5.5dB level anyway).

If you have the opportunity and remember: try it! Instead of choosing Dolby for the "extra" speakers beyond the 5.1 in the soundtrack, choose +DTS:X. In my case, I can test without speakers since the X4400 is just the pre-pro (i.e. amps turned off).

Edit: it seemed to me like a "good idea" to choose DTS:X processing for the extra speakers with a DTS-HD MA 5.1 soundtrack, instead of my usual Dolby. I guess not, so far. To be honest, I haven't even compared the two for how they handle the "extra" speakers, I'm not hugely concerned about derived audio like I am for discrete channels. But here it starts to affect my overall experience.
I was referring to my level boost but I get what you're saying. I don't have more than a 5.1 setup currently but using the DTS Neural X upmixer over DSU my max levels drop from +11dB down to +5dB in an untreated room so there is something going on there affecting headroom. What's your max level without DTS-X off but Audyssey on?

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Last edited by Madmax67; 02-26-2019 at 08:15 PM.
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post #10502 of 12286 Old 02-26-2019, 08:18 PM
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@cfraser Virtual also does the same thing to my X4300H running an Outlaw 5000 external amp. Maximum +5dB.

EDIT: Also this test feedback from me is not while playing a disc. Satellite movie feed in native 2 channel stereo.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

Last edited by Madmax67; 02-26-2019 at 08:25 PM.
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post #10503 of 12286 Old 02-26-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sound54 View Post
Only DTS option on my 4400 for sound choices (non DTS X source signal), is for Neural X and Virtual X. Virtual X if chosen only works if configured for 5.1 or less.
Says up to 7.1.4 in the writeups for it but I'm sure 7.1 is the stopping point due to height speakers making the virtual part a a bit moot.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #10504 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
I was referring to my level boost but I get what you're saying. I don't have more than a 5.1 setup currently but using the DTS Neural X upmixer over DSU my max levels drop from +11dB down to +5dB in an untreated room so there is something going on there affecting headroom. What's your max level without DTS-X off but Audyssey on?
Hey, thanks for checking. I realize this is a really minor thing. But curious minds and all that...

When a disc is not playing, or with DSX, there is no volume-limiting at all (that I know of), and +18dB is the max I can get to. IDK if it can/should go any higher offhand. I usually consider -10dB as pretty darn loud in here with a typical UHD/BD, but I have encountered a few DVDs with very low-level audio and I have moved into the +dBs the odd time. These relative dBs don't mean much to anyone else, but for my gear/room they give you an idea of where I usually run.

Edit: I always have Audyssey on. It doesn't seem to affect the volume-limiting though, I did check that. I usually have DEQ on, DV is always off, and the other options like containment and everything else are off. There is no intentional dynamic range or volume limiting feature enabled.

Last edited by cfraser; 02-27-2019 at 07:55 AM.
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post #10505 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Says up to 7.1.4 in the writeups for it but I'm sure 7.1 is the stopping point due to height speakers making the virtual part a a bit moot.
Yes, it definitely "works" with a 7.1 base with the X4400. And that's all I "know" about it...
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post #10506 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 08:14 AM
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Radio stations on the X4400H. My question: Why am I unable to locate/save a major local radio station (KMOX, in St. Louis) on my X4400H? I get a "not available/supported" type of message. KMOX? Really? In St. Louis???

No problem with my Denon AVR-E400, though . . . .

Thanks.

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post #10507 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwb0007 View Post
Radio stations on the X4400H. My question: Why am I unable to locate/save a major local radio station (KMOX, in St. Louis) on my X4400H? I get a "not available/supported" type of message. KMOX? Really? In St. Louis???

No problem with my Denon AVR-E400, though . . . .

Thanks.
According to the below link, KMOX is no longer available on TuneIn.

https://tunein.com/radio/KMOX-AM-1120-s34110/
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post #10508 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
According to the below link, KMOX is no longer available on TuneIn.

https://tunein.com/radio/KMOX-AM-1120-s34110/
Yes, JD, that is what I got, too. Any idea why?

I do have "radiodenon.com" on my E400, and get the station just fine . . . .

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post #10509 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwb0007 View Post
Radio stations on the X4400H. My question: Why am I unable to locate/save a major local radio station (KMOX, in St. Louis) on my X4400H? I get a "not available/supported" type of message. KMOX? Really? In St. Louis???

No problem with my Denon AVR-E400, though . . . .

Thanks.
Even with the IMO rather crappy (AM) tuner in the X4400, I can get KMOX in Toronto at night. It's actually clearer than some of the local radio stations. It sounds better than the web stream I get, why I go that way.
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post #10510 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound54 View Post
Only DTS option on my 4400 for sound choices (non DTS X source signal), is for Neural X and Virtual X. Virtual X if chosen only works if configured for 5.1 or less.
Says up to 7.1.4 in
the writeups for it but I'm sure 7.1 is the stopping point due to height speakers making the virtual part a a bit moot.
My bad, 7.1 as you say...just no height channels...and has to be pcm or non dolby signal...courtesy of dolby!
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post #10511 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 09:20 AM
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HI All - I purchased an X3400H receiver a few months ago and am now upgrading my speakers. I am buying KEF Q750 towers, Q650 center and then have some polk in wall surrrounds and two in ceiling Atmos. My question is whether the X3400 is powerful enough to drive these speakers correctly. I usually listen to movies at -10db to reference, watching a few movies a week. Thanks
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post #10512 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
Even with the IMO rather crappy (AM) tuner in the X4400, I can get KMOX in Toronto at night. It's actually clearer than some of the local radio stations. It sounds better than the web stream I get, why I go that way.
KMOX is one of the most powerful radio stations in the world, and has been since 1925. It can literally be heard around the world if conditions are right. It was the number one station in St. Louis for decades, until recently. The baseball Cardinals were on the station for 52 years, and that is why the Cardinals draw better than other cities it's size, because they are popular across the Midwest as everyone used to be able to pull their games in. The new Cardinal owners have a share in a different, weaker, station now, and moved the games there, which was stupid, imo.

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post #10513 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
KMOX is one of the most powerful radio stations in the world, and has been since 1925. It can literally be heard around the world if conditions are right. It was the number one station in St. Louis for decades, until recently. The baseball Cardinals were on the station for 52 years, and that is why the Cardinals draw better than other cities it's size, because they are popular across the Midwest as everyone used to be able to pull their games in. The new Cardinal owners have a share in a different, weaker, station now, and moved the games there, which was stupid, imo.
I believe all USA radio stations are limited to 50 kW so if KMOX can be heard up in Toronto it's a result of weather conditions and geography rather than actual transmitting power.
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post #10514 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 10:00 AM
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I believe all USA radio stations are limited to 50 kW so if KMOX can be heard up in Toronto it's a result of weather conditions and geography rather than actual transmitting power.
It's both. But yes, it is a "Clear Channel" 50 kW station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMOX

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In 1927, the station gave prominent coverage to the Charles Lindbergh flight across the Atlantic, in his plane, The Spirit of St. Louis. That same year, KMOX became one of the first 16 stations in the CBS network.[6] Two years later CBS bought KMOX, and began the process of getting approval to build a 50,000-watt transmitter tower. When completed, it gave the now-clear-channel station a signal that could be heard as far away as New Zealand and the Arctic Circle, making it one of the first international radio stations. Its signal has been picked up in Scotland and South Africa.[7][8]
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post #10515 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, JD, that is what I got, too. Any idea why?

I do have "radiodenon.com" on my E400, and get the station just fine . . . .
You'd have to ask TuneIn which replaced radiodenon.com.
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post #10516 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
HI All - I purchased an X3400H receiver a few months ago and am now upgrading my speakers. I am buying KEF Q750 towers, Q650 center and then have some polk in wall surrrounds and two in ceiling Atmos. My question is whether the X3400 is powerful enough to drive these speakers correctly. I usually listen to movies at -10db to reference, watching a few movies a week. Thanks
Whether an AVR has enough power to drive a set of speakers depends on the impedance/sensitivity of the speaker, minimum impedance of the speaker, the size of the room, and how loud you prefer listening. At average listening levels, there shouldn't be a problem; however, at louder levels, if the AVR shuts off in protection mode, simply don't raise the volume above that level.
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post #10517 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
You'd have to ask TuneIn which replaced radiodenon.com.
The radio station (KMOX) says that they may be accessed via "Radio.com".

Any idea how to do that on the X4400H? Inputting that into "Search" on the receiver was unproductive.

Jim
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AVRs: Denon AVR-X4400H, Onkyo TX-NR1030, Denon AVR-X3400H, Onkyo TX-NR646
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post #10518 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post
Hey, thanks for checking. I realize this is a really minor thing. But curious minds and all that...
No problem. I don't think it's that minor. You should still be able to get to Reference level with some added headroom on that receiver even without the added amp. JMHO.

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When a disc is not playing, or with DSX, there is no volume-limiting at all (that I know of), and +18dB is the max I can get to. IDK if it can/should go any higher offhand. I usually consider -10dB as pretty darn loud in here with a typical UHD/BD, but I have encountered a few DVDs with very low-level audio and I have moved into the +dBs the odd time. These relative dBs don't mean much to anyone else, but for my gear/room they give you an idea of where I usually run.
Yeah, that's the full range of levels. Mine gets limited by about 6dB with Audyssey on but my space is untreated and Audyssey probably makes more boosts and cuts to compensate. In Direct mode with Audyssey disabled I get the full range to +18dB back. Moot point for me as i listen no more that -32 Relative scale and that's plenty loud in my space.

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Edit: I always have Audyssey on. It doesn't seem to affect the volume-limiting though, I did check that. I usually have DEQ on, DV is always off, and the other options like containment and everything else are off. There is no intentional dynamic range or volume limiting feature enabled.
I use DEQ as well with no issues.
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Last edited by Madmax67; 02-27-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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post #10519 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sound54 View Post
My bad, 7.1 as you say...just no height channels...and has to be pcm or non dolby signal...courtesy of dolby!
No worries. Just making sure their writeup was accurate. I sadly won't get this feature myself to test so I live vicariously through those who do.

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post #10520 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwb0007 View Post
The radio station (KMOX) says that they may be accessed via "Radio.com".

Any idea how to do that on the X4400H? Inputting that into "Search" on the receiver was unproductive.
The Denon uses TuneIn.
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post #10521 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 10:13 PM
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Hey guys,

I currently own a 4300 and a 3400. Setup has been a breeze on both units and I have not had one issue.

My dad just bought a 3400 and asked me to help with the install....

He has a 5.1 surround setup and is running the following to the receiver:

1) spectrum cable
2) Blu Ray
3) Apple TV
4) Samsung NU8000 TV


To the best of my knowledge I setup his the same way mine is, obviously the equipment carries.

ARC and HDMI control are both set to on.

Sound plays through the receiver for spectrum cable. However, sound will not play on anything else. No sound from the smart apps on the tv, the blu ray or the Apple TV. Video is present on the screen in each scenario but sound is not

Any suggestions? I’m completely flummoxed


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post #10522 of 12286 Old 02-27-2019, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SuLax22 View Post
Hey guys,

I currently own a 4300 and a 3400. Setup has been a breeze on both units and I have not had one issue.

My dad just bought a 3400 and asked me to help with the install....

He has a 5.1 surround setup and is running the following to the receiver:

1) spectrum cable
2) Blu Ray
3) Apple TV
4) Samsung NU8000 TV


To the best of my knowledge I setup his the same way mine is, obviously the equipment carries.

ARC and HDMI control are both set to on.

Sound plays through the receiver for spectrum cable. However, sound will not play on anything else. No sound from the smart apps on the tv, the blu ray or the Apple TV. Video is present on the screen in each scenario but sound is not

Any suggestions? I’m completely flummoxed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Your issue is with ARC. Use optical cable and you'll see everything will work. ARC is very temperamental. No one should use ARC.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

tv: Samsung UN75MU800, Receiver: Denon AVR 730H, speakers: 4x M&K S-1B and M&K S85c for center, sub: MKsound V12 HTPC, Samsung UBP-K8500, Rogers Digital PVR, Chromecast Ultra
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post #10523 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Quicksilv3r View Post
Your issue is with ARC. Use optical cable and you'll see everything will work. ARC is very temperamental. No one should use ARC.

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Shouldn't you say "No one should use ARC unless it works for you"? ARC works flawlessly for my setup.
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post #10524 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuLax22 View Post
Hey guys,

I currently own a 4300 and a 3400. Setup has been a breeze on both units and I have not had one issue.

My dad just bought a 3400 and asked me to help with the install....

He has a 5.1 surround setup and is running the following to the receiver:

1) spectrum cable
2) Blu Ray
3) Apple TV
4) Samsung NU8000 TV


To the best of my knowledge I setup his the same way mine is, obviously the equipment carries.

ARC and HDMI control are both set to on.

Sound plays through the receiver for spectrum cable. However, sound will not play on anything else. No sound from the smart apps on the tv, the blu ray or the Apple TV. Video is present on the screen in each scenario but sound is not

Any suggestions? I’m completely flummoxed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Since The BD player and ATV are directly connected the the 3400, its not an ARC issue. Swap the cable box and ATV and see if it follow device. At the beginning of this thread there are instructions how to do a reset. I would try that.
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post #10525 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuLax22 View Post
Hey guys,

I currently own a 4300 and a 3400. Setup has been a breeze on both units and I have not had one issue.

My dad just bought a 3400 and asked me to help with the install....

He has a 5.1 surround setup and is running the following to the receiver:

1) spectrum cable
2) Blu Ray
3) Apple TV
4) Samsung NU8000 TV


To the best of my knowledge I setup his the same way mine is, obviously the equipment carries.

ARC and HDMI control are both set to on.

Sound plays through the receiver for spectrum cable. However, sound will not play on anything else. No sound from the smart apps on the tv, the blu ray or the Apple TV. Video is present on the screen in each scenario but sound is not

Any suggestions? I’m completely flummoxed


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1. ARC issue may simply require cycling the ARC setting on the AVR OFF/ON and then powering the TV and AVR both off. Power the TV and AVR on. With a smart app selected on the TV, if the "TV Audio" source is not automatically selected on the AVR, try manually selecting it on the remote. If still no joy, an optical cable is the other option.

2. For the sources connected to the AVR, ensure he is using all 4k/18gbps "Premium" certified cables. Might just be an HDMI handshake issue which is often resolved by powering on the components in the following order: TV, pause 5 seconds, AVR, pause 5 seconds, source. You may have to disable HDMI Control on the AVR to allow for the pauses, however, it is not required for the ARC feature to work on these 2017 models.
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post #10526 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 06:40 AM
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Boomy bass on x3400 replacing 4520

Recently my 4520 died and I replaced it with a x3400h... exact same config, direct swap out. Ran 8 position Audyssey, set speakers to SMALL and xover to 80Hz... all pretty much standard stuff. But the twin subs have a massive peak somewhere in the upper bass range. It's especially pronounced watching TV (Sony Bravia via optical).


I've restored the Audyssey defaults and lowered the trim on both subs as far as they will go (-12db). I do remember something strange happening duringing the initial Audyssey setup... it said "your sub is too low, turn up the volume on the sub until it says 75" or something to that effect. I'd never encountered anything like that with the 4520.


So I'm about to do a factory reset and start over again. Everything is the same... same speakers, subs, cables, setup mic and MLP positions... everything ran for years on the 4520 and on a 3312 before that and never had this issue. Is there anything obvious I'm overlooking? I should mention that I have been using the same setup mic as they all appear to be the same. Other than the "rocket launch" mic stand, is there any difference in the newer mic from the older one? Thanks for any advice.

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post #10527 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post
Recently my 4520 died and I replaced it with a x3400h... exact same config, direct swap out. Ran 8 position Audyssey, set speakers to SMALL and xover to 80Hz... all pretty much standard stuff. But the twin subs have a massive peak somewhere in the upper bass range. It's especially pronounced watching TV (Sony Bravia via optical).


I've restored the Audyssey defaults and lowered the trim on both subs as far as they will go (-12db). I do remember something strange happening duringing the initial Audyssey setup... it said "your sub is too low, turn up the volume on the sub until it says 75" or something to that effect. I'd never encountered anything like that with the 4520.


So I'm about to do a factory reset and start over again. Everything is the same... same speakers, subs, cables, setup mic and MLP positions... everything ran for years on the 4520 and on a 3312 before that and never had this issue. Is there anything obvious I'm overlooking? I should mention that I have been using the same setup mic as they all appear to be the same. Other than the "rocket launch" mic stand, is there any difference in the newer mic from the older one? Thanks for any advice.
The mikes are the same, but they can deteriorate with age, it might be worth trying the mike that came with the x3400h.

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post #10528 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post
Recently my 4520 died and I replaced it with a x3400h... exact same config, direct swap out. Ran 8 position Audyssey, set speakers to SMALL and xover to 80Hz... all pretty much standard stuff. But the twin subs have a massive peak somewhere in the upper bass range. It's especially pronounced watching TV (Sony Bravia via optical).


I've restored the Audyssey defaults and lowered the trim on both subs as far as they will go (-12db). I do remember something strange happening duringing the initial Audyssey setup... it said "your sub is too low, turn up the volume on the sub until it says 75" or something to that effect. I'd never encountered anything like that with the 4520.


So I'm about to do a factory reset and start over again. Everything is the same... same speakers, subs, cables, setup mic and MLP positions... everything ran for years on the 4520 and on a 3312 before that and never had this issue. Is there anything obvious I'm overlooking? I should mention that I have been using the same setup mic as they all appear to be the same. Other than the "rocket launch" mic stand, is there any difference in the newer mic from the older one? Thanks for any advice.
Possibly bad mic (as suggested try the 4520CI mic) or sub is defective.
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post #10529 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
1. ARC issue may simply require cycling the ARC setting on the AVR OFF/ON and then powering the TV and AVR both off. Power the TV and AVR on. With a smart app selected on the TV, if the "TV Audio" source is not automatically selected on the AVR, try manually selecting it on the remote. If still no joy, an optical cable is the other option.



2. For the sources connected to the AVR, ensure he is using all 4k/18gbps "Premium" certified cables. Might just be an HDMI handshake issue which is often resolved by powering on the components in the following order: TV, pause 5 seconds, AVR, pause 5 seconds, source. You may have to disable HDMI Control on the AVR to allow for the pauses, however, it is not required for the ARC feature to work on these 2017 models.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilv3r View Post
Your issue is with ARC. Use optical cable and you'll see everything will work. ARC is very temperamental. No one should use ARC.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
Since The BD player and ATV are directly connected the the 3400, its not an ARC issue. Swap the cable box and ATV and see if it follow device. At the beginning of this thread there are instructions how to do a reset. I would try that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL99 View Post
Shouldn't you say "No one should use ARC unless it works for you"? ARC works flawlessly for my setup.


Well, don’t mind the idiot in the room! Thank for all your quick replies guys. Turns it it was a an installer error. I assumed his ARC port was HDMI 1 as it on my tv. Unfortunately for me, the assumption was wrong and his ARC port was HDMI4. Now that the cords been relocated at the TV end and it’s ARC to ARC, everything’s working flawlessly.

Well.... mostly everything. Cable, Apple TV, Samsung apps, chrome cast and the addition of a CD player are all working. However, Blu Ray produces video but no audio. player is from 2008 so it has me wondering if it’s just too old to work with the new tech. Checked software updates and the last one available was from 06/2010. Running a brand new proper HDMI cord so that’s not the issue. Going to stop by their house tonight with my BR player and see if the Audio issue follows over to mine


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post #10530 of 12286 Old 02-28-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SuLax22 View Post
However, Blu Ray produces video but no audio. player is from 2008 so it has me wondering if it’s just too old to work with the new tech.
Use an optical connection from the Blu Ray player to the receiver for audio.
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