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post #4021 of 4357 Old 04-20-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I would say 95% confirmed. An Audyssey employee did confirm it was removed. Users with good <20hz capable subs (myself included) have reported a significant subjective improvement. enricoclaudio posted REW graphs comparing AVR and app with no significant difference. However he does not have a pre-update REW sweep of app to directly compare. He has very capable sealed subs down to 8hz in room response and in the past I have seen other users with very capable sealed subs not have a noticeable 20hz roll off for whatever reason. We just need someone to post a before/after REW sweep with the same app based calibration plus an AVR calibration sweep (with similar mic positions) to be 100% of the change and parity to AVR. I have to look and see what older REW sweeps I have and I may be able but no time right now.


Not sure how useful this is, but I know everybody loves graphs and pics!
First pic is an rew sweep with my older Onkyo AVR with MultEQ XT and minidsp. I have a natural room bump at 16hz.


This one is new AVR with XT32 and minidsp. This was audyssey run with the app, not the AVR. The below 20hz looks suspicious to me. I did send the new curve to the AVR but haven’t swept with rew.
FWIW, the screen caps in the app are now flat vs rolling off.
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post #4022 of 4357 Old 04-20-2019, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mystickid View Post
I'm still very new to REW. I'd like to ask, what does REW do to enhance the sound quality that the Audyssey MultiEQ App does not besides giving actual measurements of the freq. response?

Is REW correcting for room modes in a better way that the Audyssey app cannot?
Personally the most use I have gotten out of REW and the UMIK was for placing my subs. If you have any wiggle room in sub placement it is worth the $100 for the mic just to get the most out of your subs. I have used it for checking my other speakers too but the subs is where it paid for itself.
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post #4023 of 4357 Old 04-20-2019, 04:58 PM
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I did a fresh calibration yesterday and the bass is noticeably better. It sounds better than when I used the AVR, partly because the app sets my subs 3db louder. The real low frequencies have more weight for sure. Graphs are great but my ears are more important since they are what I use to listen
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post #4024 of 4357 Old 04-20-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
I did a fresh calibration yesterday and the bass is noticeably better. It sounds better than when I used the AVR, partly because the app sets my subs 3db louder. The real low frequencies have more weight for sure. Graphs are great but my ears are more important since they are what I use to listen
According to the Audyssey guy all we should need to do is re-send our calibrations but it does seem there are now a few people reporting subjectively very good fresh calibrations after app update. I wonder if there is really something different or just placebo or variance. I hate running calibrations and just recently ran a fresh one (pre-update) so I was ready to just send to AVR. But if there is a consensus that there are some under the hood updates leading to a better calibration I may have to run one again. Just from resending after app update I do feel bass is certainly on par with AVR now but may even seem a little better, slightly more <20hz impact and nuance compared with AVR. Could very well be placebo though.

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post #4025 of 4357 Old 04-20-2019, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
According to the Audyssey guy all we should need to do is re-send our calibrations but it does seem there are now a few people reporting subjectively very good fresh calibrations after app update. I wonder if there is really something different or just placebo or variance. I hate running calibrations and just recently ran a fresh one (pre-update) so I was ready to just send to AVR. But if there is a consensus that there are some under the hood updates leading to a better calibration I may have to run one again. Just from resending after app update I do feel bass is certainly on par with AVR now but may even seem a little better, slightly more <20hz impact and nuance compared with AVR. Could very well be placebo though.
Initially I just sent the update to my AVR but I repositioned my speakers so I had to run another. But a part of me was curious if I would have different results and to my surprise my subwoofer results looks better than ever. It also sounds better.

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post #4026 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 06:19 AM
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I just recently learned of the MultEQ Audyssey App , which is somewhat a bummer since I just purchased a Denon X3500h AVR going a bit over my budget while the main reason for me going for this receiver is that it has the glorified Audyssey MultEQ XT32 compared to the lower model which comes only with the Audyssey MultEQ XT.

I have a problematic room (very big, lots of glass...) so I was really hoping that my extra spent $$$ would be worth it.
So I now learn it is not really a full package and that I will have to purchase the "After market" app which will really help me achieve better settings.

So a few questions:
1. Does this app work with the X3500h?
2. Will this App really improve the sound calibration results? Is it worth the $20?
3. Is there any type of trial version for me to test somehow if its worth it for me?
4. I am reading up about REW, should I start with that before purchasing the MultEQ app?

Thanks guys.
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post #4027 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toffi View Post
I just recently learned of the MultEQ Audyssey App , which is somewhat a bummer since I just purchased a Denon X3500h AVR going a bit over my budget while the main reason for me going for this receiver is that it has the glorified Audyssey MultEQ XT32 compared to the lower model which comes only with the Audyssey MultEQ XT.

I have a problematic room (very big, lots of glass...) so I was really hoping that my extra spent $$$ would be worth it.
So I now learn it is not really a full package and that I will have to purchase the "After market" app which will really help me achieve better settings.

So a few questions:
1. Does this app work with the X3500h?
2. Will this App really improve the sound calibration results? Is it worth the $20?
3. Is there any type of trial version for me to test somehow if its worth it for me?
4. I am reading up about REW, should I start with that before purchasing the MultEQ app?

Thanks guys.

1. The app does work with the 3500h. In the Apple app store, the information about the app lists what models work with it.

2. Whether or not you use the app, room treatment!! and careful mic placements during Audyssey calibration are very important. The calibration results (app vs. AVR) are the same, but there are some adjustments and choices that can be made in the app calibration file that you cannot make if you calibrate using your AVR.
--The app contains a "curve editor" that allows you to make some adjustments in the Audyssey room correction results.
--You have the option to remove Midrange Compensation from the Audyssey REFERENCE curve. You have two choices in the app for the degree of high frequency rolloff in the REFERENCE curve.
--You can limit the frequency range of Audyssey room correction (some people prefer to correct only the bass).
--After running the app calibration (and before uploading the calibration to your AVR), you can choose whether you want to enable Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, or LFC (when you calibrate with the AVR, you have to change these settings for each input after calibration is done).

3. No trial version

4. I have not used REW--you'll need to spend about $75 on a special mic in order to use REW, which is freeware. REW will allow you to measure your system's response in the room before and after calibration (Audyssey does not display graphs of the "after" results). REW may help you improve subwoofer placement or (if using the app) make some changes in the Audyssey target curve to get better results.
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post #4028 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 05:38 PM
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I did my first ever fresh calibration using the MultiEQ App and the sound is 50X better than I expeirenced as compared to when i did just through the AVR.

I was also more methodical in positioning this time. Before I used to take ea. measurement 2ft apart from each position and not RELATIVE TO POSITION 1.

Here was my mic positioning order with the Multieq app and I made sure this time to make every new position less than 2 ft from position 1. So even position 6, which is naturally the furthest distance from position 1, is less than 2 ft away from position 1. So it's like a small bubble of calibration a few inches apart all around position 1, which is my MLP.

4 5 6
7 8
1 2 3

Call it lucky, but as a result, my sound experience is phenomenally better than before when I just used the AVR and did the 2ft apart measurements. Movies now come to vibrant life with crystal clear sparkle in the highs and mids and my bass finally sounds so well rounded and not detectable now, but with that movie-like thundering presence. This is especially noted when my volume is turned way up in a movie. Very theater like; I love it now.

Bear in mind, I only did the Audyssey multieq app calibration with no other tuning of the graph or any other changes besides changing the speaker sizes to small and the crossovers to 80hz. Then I just sent it to the receiver and voila, a much much better sound.

I need to save this to a memory card because I really like it. I'm almost afraid to mess with the eq graphs at all, I need to save it first so I have backup.

I'm not sure exactly why the sound on this app calibration sounds better but I'd love to know. Seems like soo many variables that it's hard to pinpoint why.

I have the Klipsch RP-8000Fs and they go down to a frequency response of 32 Hz. My question is, if I want to get more deeper presence and bass in vocals like in narration for example, can I lower the crossover frequency to 40 Hz to obtain more deeper voices/vocals since my speakers can go down to 32 Hz?
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post #4029 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystickid View Post
I did my first ever fresh calibration using the MultiEQ App and the sound is 50X better than I expeirenced as compared to when i did just through the AVR.

I was also more methodical in positioning this time. Before I used to take ea. measurement 2ft apart from each position and not RELATIVE TO POSITION 1.

Here was my mic positioning order with the Multieq app and I made sure this time to make every new position less than 2 ft from position 1. So even position 6, which is naturally the furthest distance from position 1, is less than 2 ft away from position 1. So it's like a small bubble of calibration a few inches apart all around position 1, which is my MLP.

4 5 6
7 8
1 2 3

Call it lucky, but as a result, my sound experience is phenomenally better than before when I just used the AVR and did the 2ft apart measurements. Movies now come to vibrant life with crystal clear sparkle in the highs and mids and my bass finally sounds so well rounded and not detectable now, but with that movie-like thundering presence. This is especially noted when my volume is turned way up in a movie. Very theater like; I love it now.

Bear in mind, I only did the Audyssey multieq app calibration with no other tuning of the graph or any other changes besides changing the speaker sizes to small and the crossovers to 80hz. Then I just sent it to the receiver and voila, a much much better sound.

I need to save this to a memory card because I really like it. I'm almost afraid to mess with the eq graphs at all, I need to save it first so I have backup.

I'm not sure exactly why the sound on this app calibration sounds better but I'd love to know. Seems like soo many variables that it's hard to pinpoint why.

I have the Klipsch RP-8000Fs and they go down to a frequency response of 32 Hz. My question is, if I want to get more deeper presence and bass in vocals like in narration for example, can I lower the crossover frequency to 40 Hz to obtain more deeper voices/vocals since my speakers can go down to 32 Hz?
I also have RP’s and I highly recommend turning OFF Midrange Compensation. It will bring out the clarity even more.

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post #4030 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mystickid View Post
Here was my mic positioning order with the Multieq app and I made sure this time to make every new position less than 2 ft from position 1. So even position 6, which is naturally the furthest distance from position 1, is less than 2 ft away from position 1. So it's like a small bubble of calibration a few inches apart all around position 1, which is my MLP.

4 5 6
7 8
1 2 3

First your mic position has me confused?

#1 MainListeningPosition should be at the very center of your layout, exactly where you sit, at ear level. Audyssey says the order of the next 7 isn't really important, just no further than 24" away from the center MLP. Looking down from above it should be like this.


Rear
7 8
3 1 2
6 4 5
Front
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post #4031 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystickid View Post
I have the Klipsch RP-8000Fs and they go down to a frequency response of 32 Hz. My question is, if I want to get more deeper presence and bass in vocals like in narration for example, can I lower the crossover frequency to 40 Hz to obtain more deeper voices/vocals since my speakers can go down to 32 Hz?
Don't do that. Your subwoofer (I am assuming you have one) is much better at low frequencies than the speakers. They might 'extend' to 32hz but not with any authority. Anyway, vocals don't contain frequencies that low. Just leave them at small/80hz unless you have a great reason to do otherwise.

edit: Just looked at measurements here https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion - yeah, keep them at 80hz crossover. They can get down to 40hz but fall off quickly after that. You don't want to start the crossover slope where the speaker is already losing output, you want it where the speaker is still strong. You could probably get away with 60hz on those speakers, but again, your subwoofer is probably much better at that frequency.
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post #4032 of 4357 Old 04-21-2019, 07:44 PM
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Don't do that. Your subwoofer (I am assuming you have one) is much better at low frequencies than the speakers. They might 'extend' to 32hz but not with any authority. Anyway, vocals don't contain frequencies that low. Just leave them at small/80hz unless you have a great reason to do otherwise.

edit: Just looked at measurements here https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion - yeah, keep them at 80hz crossover. They can get down to 40hz but fall off quickly after that. You don't want to start the crossover slope where the speaker is already losing output, you want it where the speaker is still strong. You could probably get away with 60hz on those speakers, but again, your subwoofer is probably much better at that frequency.
Yup. I have then predecessor RP-280f, and while they do a credible job without a subwoofer, my Rythmiks just do it better, with noticeably less distortion at high levels. I'm talking about music. The difference is going to even more obvious with home theater.

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post #4033 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 02:31 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon &amp; Marantz AV Receivers &amp; Pre/Pros

I have done a fresh run too, I also have the RP’s (280F) and two subwoofers (R-115SW’s) and I have tweaked the curve with REW adjusting the subwoofer distances for two days, because I want perfection. The correction is limited to 300hz.

Here is my REW graph, couldn’t get it any better in my room. I did not use smoothing:
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I have done a fresh run too, I also have the RP’s (280F) and two subwoofers (R-115SW’s) and I have tweaked the curve with REW adjusting the subwoofer distances for two days, because I want perfection. The correction is limited to 300hz.

Here is my REW graph, couldn’t get it any better in my room. I did not use smoothing:

Looks really nice! What was your workflow for tweaking the sub distance? Did you keep one sub distance the same and then start tweaking the other? Also did you look at the mains+subs curve or only subs? I have not touched the relative distance between the subs only changed both by same amount. And then used main(l/r/c)+subs measurements with rew to find the flattest combined response.
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post #4035 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 03:57 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon &amp; Marantz AV Receivers &amp; Pre/Pros

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Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
Looks really nice! What was your workflow for tweaking the sub distance? Did you keep one sub distance the same and then start tweaking the other? Also did you look at the mains+subs curve or only subs? I have not touched the relative distance between the subs only changed both by same amount. And then used main(l/r/c)+subs measurements with rew to find the flattest combined response.


Yes, really proud with the final result. I’ve measured the subs with the center channel, since I watch movies and listen music in multichannel, never in stereo.

I’ve measured the first sub with the second off, looked for the flattest response and measured both subs together and added distances to the second one while looking for the flattest total output. I’ve also tried to flip the switch on both sub 1 and sub 2. But the overall response was better with both at 0 degrees.

It was not easy, time consuming and I was lucky that the little one and my significant other were away for a day.

By the way, never trust Audyssey for setting the sub distances. They were way off and full of dips. I ended up adding 9ft to sub 1 and 5ft to sub 2.

Now I can finally enjoy my system after almost a year and a half getting it right. The minidsp mic and REW, combined with the new update of the MultEQ app are great tools to have almost the same response as theatres and concerts.

Watching Michael Jackson live in Munich now... AWESOMENESS!

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post #4036 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 05:24 AM
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Yes, really proud with the final result. I’ve measured the subs with the center channel, since I watch movies and listen music in multichannel, never in stereo.

I’ve measured the first sub with the second off, looked for the flattest response and measured both subs together and added distances to the second one while looking for the flattest total output. I’ve also tried to flip the switch on both sub 1 and sub 2. But the overall response was better with both at 0 degrees.

It was not easy, time consuming and I was lucky that the little one and my significant other were away for a day.

By the way, never trust Audyssey for setting the sub distances. They were way off and full of dips. I ended up adding 9ft to sub 1 and 5ft to sub 2.

Now I can finally enjoy my system after almost a year and a half getting it right. The minidsp mic and REW, combined with the new update of the MultEQ app are great tools to have almost the same response as theatres and concerts.

Watching Michael Jackson live in Munich now... AWESOMENESS!
Beautiful, just beautiful job IMWhizzle!! It's truly astounding what a properly EQ'd room can do to the sound we hear and experience. Love it!
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post #4037 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 07:10 AM
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Hi all. I was just wondering if this app is simple to use. As I scan through this thread, I see pictures of graphs that really mean nothing to me. It sounds like the app calibration is better than just using the receiver, but if I need to understand those graphs,etc, I might be a bit lost.
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post #4038 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 07:45 AM
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The app is super easy to use if you have a large enough screen to drag the curve editor data points around. Other than that it is very straight forward. Also nice to be able to so all the rest of the things the APP does even if you don't use the curve editor.
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post #4039 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
I have done a fresh run too, I also have the RP’s (280F) and two subwoofers (R-115SW’s) and I have tweaked the curve with REW adjusting the subwoofer distances for two days, because I want perfection. The correction is limited to 300hz.

Here is my REW graph, couldn’t get it any better in my room.
looks like you are on the right track... room size? 2nd sub location?

people have stated that it's best to examine rew graphs at 5db increments, and that the waterfall can also be very helpful.

i built some bass panels, and with rew, i was able to see ringing and such get knocked down a bit.
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post #4040 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale124 View Post
Hi all. I was just wondering if this app is simple to use. As I scan through this thread, I see pictures of graphs that really mean nothing to me. It sounds like the app calibration is better than just using the receiver, but if I need to understand those graphs,etc, I might be a bit lost.
Dale.
you can tweak some audyssey settings with the app, but it can't measure changes that you make, and it's also limited on what you can do, like no curve tuning under 20hz.

you'd be much better off first learning how rew works, and getting a mic for it, then consider the app later down the road.
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post #4041 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 11:47 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon &amp; Marantz AV Receivers &amp; Pre/Pros

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looks like you are on the right track... room size? 2nd sub location?



people have stated that it's best to examine rew graphs at 5db increments, and that the waterfall can also be very helpful.



i built some bass panels, and with rew, i was able to see ringing and such get knocked down a bit.


The room size is 45m2 approximately. The second sub is in the opposite corner (diagonal) in the back. Here is the response with 5db increments and a waterfall graph. I also added a photo of both sub locations:

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post #4042 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 12:48 PM
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that waterfall looks like everything over 20hz is done by 420ms? from what little i know, that is good... and it's with no room treatment, either.

i bet that it sounds great.
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post #4043 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 02:13 PM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon &amp; Marantz AV Receivers &amp; Pre/Pros

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Originally Posted by osv1 View Post
that waterfall looks like everything over 20hz is done by 420ms? from what little i know, that is good... and it's with no room treatment, either.



i bet that it sounds great.


It sounds good for sure! EDIT: I have learned today that one targets a decay stop before 450ms. I guess I am proud to notice that mine stops at 420ms mostly. I can only imagine the response after treatment in a space like this. But other than adding furniture, curtains and paintings I can not do in this living room.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I sent denon a request to recalculate the correct roll off when the user adjusts the crossover upwards in the app. If we can get this added, the app will have all of the basic functionality the pro kit had. It would be especially helpful for users like me who have speakers that measure full range but would like to add a crossover.
Hi,
Did you get a response on this from D&M regarding this feature? Hopefully they can get this implemented as it would greatly enhance the bass management system. Is there anything we can do add pressure for this feature addition?
Thanks,
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post #4045 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 03:11 PM
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Hi all. I was just wondering if this app is simple to use. As I scan through this thread, I see pictures of graphs that really mean nothing to me. It sounds like the app calibration is better than just using the receiver, but if I need to understand those graphs,etc, I might be a bit lost.
Dale.
The calibration done by the app is NOT better than the calibration done with the AVR. Any differences you find would be due to differences in mic placements during calibration.

The apo does allow you to make some changes in the calibration results that you cannot do when the AVR has done the calibration.

I find the app convenient to use because I can be out of the room (and out of the way) when each mic placement is being pinged. I also prefer the results when MRC is turned off, which can only be done using the app.

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post #4046 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
I have done a fresh run too, I also have the RP’s (280F) and two subwoofers (R-115SW’s) and I have tweaked the curve with REW adjusting the subwoofer distances for two days, because I want perfection. The correction is limited to 300hz.

Here is my REW graph, couldn’t get it any better in my room. I did not use smoothing:


Try changing the graph to show the upper/lower limits to 45 and 105. Pretty standard to use a 60db window. That will also give a better idea of what the response really is. In the window you have it makes it look a little smoother.
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post #4047 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 04:07 PM
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you'd be much better off first learning how rew works, and getting a mic for it, then consider the app later down the road.
This is a backwards path recommendation.
REW is a difficult to learn and has a steep learning curve, and it's required mic will run you around a $100. In no way is a requirement to use the Editor and get wonderful results.


Yes, later if you want to hand tweak the response curve, REW is a great tool to take things to the next level.


Or a large infusion of money can take you even further using ever more expensive and difficult to use software and hardware like Acourate, Dirac/miniDSP, even scratch build files using REW and a computer.


Point is that there are many other ways to do digital room correction, but a basic $20 addition to your D&M Audyssey XT32 can take you to the next level with wonderful results.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
This is a backwards path recommendation.
rew is never a step backwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
is a difficult to learn and has a steep learning curve, and it's required mic will run you around a $100. In no way is a requirement to use the Editor and get wonderful results.
agreed, rew is difficult and complicated.

on the other hand, the capabilities of the app are extremely limited, and in no way comparable to the improvements that you can get with rew... as was just demonstrated a couple of posts above yours.

Quote:
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Yes, later if you want to hand tweak the response curve, REW is a great tool to take things to the next level.
if you want to hand-tweak the response curve, the app is a very limited way to do that, and then not be able to measure the differences that you thought that you made.

like anything in life, the best results usually come to those who put in the hardest work.
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post #4049 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlee1 View Post
Hi,

Did you get a response on this from D&M regarding this feature? Hopefully they can get this implemented as it would greatly enhance the bass management system. Is there anything we can do add pressure for this feature addition?

Thanks,


I haven’t heard anything yet. I plan to send a follow up later this week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #4050 of 4357 Old 04-22-2019, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osv1 View Post
you can tweak some audyssey settings with the app, but it can't measure changes that you make, and it's also limited on what you can do, like no curve tuning under 20hz.

you'd be much better off first learning how rew works, and getting a mic for it, then consider the app later down the road.
If a user was adept with REW, would there be any point in following up with the MultEq editor?
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