MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 136 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4051 of 5235 Old 04-22-2019, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osv1 View Post
if you want to hand-tweak the response curve, the app is a very limited way to do that, and then not be able to measure the differences that you thought that you made.

like anything in life, the best results usually come to those who put in the hardest work.
Limited but a big step beyond the AVR with the new, easy to master options it offers.

Can't argue with the last sentence but as I listed earlier, if you want "the best results", dump Audyssey altogether and go with one of the much more sophisticated and difficult options.
Editor is simply meant as a small step beyond but still remaining an easy and near fully automated line of product.
I stand by my original comments that recommending someone go thru all the trouble of learning REW before getting into the simple upgrade of Editor is a totally unnecessary complication and bad advice.

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post #4052 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 09:22 AM
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Just download this app and run the calibration notice the top rear R result.Running through avr dist is not 0. I dont know if its a bug. I have 7.1.4 setup.
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post #4053 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Try changing the graph to show the upper/lower limits to 45 and 105. Pretty standard to use a 60db window. That will also give a better idea of what the response really is. In the window you have it makes it look a little smoother.




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post #4054 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post


Here you are!


Thanks.

I was referring to this area in red which is still 0-100.
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post #4055 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Thanks.

I was referring to this area in red which is still 0-100.


I understand but there is no output in this area.

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post #4056 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Limited but a big step beyond the AVR with the new, easy to master options it offers.
no, it really isn't, because the app can't measure anything that you think that you've done with it... pretty sad, given that audyssey itself already has measurement capability.

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Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Can't argue with the last sentence but as I listed earlier, if you want "the best results", dump Audyssey altogether and go with one of the much more sophisticated and difficult options.
none of those things are a full substitute for what rew does.

we just had someone in this thread use rew to optimize subwoofer placement, and the importance of that didn't register with you at all.

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Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Editor is simply meant as a small step beyond but still remaining an easy and near fully automated line of product.
I stand by my original comments that recommending someone go thru all the trouble of learning REW before getting into the simple upgrade of Editor is a totally unnecessary complication and bad advice.
i'm glad that you are happy with your confirmation bias in a placebo app, but there is no getting around it's crippled capabilities and it's misguided implementation for smartphones, when it should have been written as a pc app.
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post #4057 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
I understand but there is no output in this area.


Correct. But the area I’m referring to sets the vertical scale for the whole graph.
I think what you meant was for the “horizontal” area below 20hz. Setting the scale from 45-105 correctly displays how we hear.
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post #4058 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Correct. But the area I’m referring to sets the vertical scale for the whole graph.
I think what you meant was for the “horizontal” area below 20hz. Setting the scale from 45-105 correctly displays how we hear.


Nice, didn’t know that. Thanks for your input. I never stop learning, thanks to people like you!

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post #4059 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 10:59 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Limited but a big step beyond the AVR with the new, easy to master options it offers.

Can't argue with the last sentence but as I listed earlier, if you want "the best results", dump Audyssey altogether and go with one of the much more sophisticated and difficult options.
Editor is simply meant as a small step beyond but still remaining an easy and near fully automated line of product.
I stand by my original comments that recommending someone go thru all the trouble of learning REW before getting into the simple upgrade of Editor is a totally unnecessary complication and bad advice.


In my case I’ve used the MultEQ app to calibrate my system and after that I’ve checked the response with REW. The response was awful in MY room. Eventually I have tweaked for hours to get it right. To me it seems that Audyssey does not check the blend between the mains, center and the subs. The eq it applies is wonderful though. It’s not a set a forget system. It was one of the reasons I turned of Audyssey because it was way off, I didn’t know what to look for without REW. Now I do. For a check of the response the learning curve is quite short and easy to understand. There is an awful lot of documentation, threads and videos about it. Time is all you need to do a trial and error.

Off course REW can be a complicated tool if you would like to manually calibrate the system.
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post #4060 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
If a user was adept with REW, would there be any point in following up with the MultEq editor?
yes, the app is important because it gives you easy access to alter most of the avr curve, and you can follow that up with actual measurements of the changes that you made with the app, in rew.

as it stands now, if you try to fix a low-frequency null in the curve, with the app, by increasing the volume in the affected area, you have no way of measuring what you did, so you'll never learn that nulls can't generally be fixed like that... with a rew measurement, you can see that it failed, and you'll have to resort to alternative approaches, which can then be measured.

if the app had measurement-only capability, and an easy method for uploading externally generated curves to itself, it would be helpful.

you could for instance post a curve to this forum, request some edits, and then upload that back into the app, for use with your avr.
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post #4061 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Nice, didn’t know that. Thanks for your input. I never stop learning, thanks to people like you!


No problem. I’m just glad to have something useful to share, even if it’s small. I think I learn something every day. Or maybe I just forget stuff and relearn it without realizing!Only thing I’m afraid of is I might be making your AudiOCD worse. Lol.
Nice to see someone putting time in the trenches to learn about, and tune their system. Nice work.
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post #4062 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
If a user was adept with REW, would there be any point in following up with the MultEq editor?
REW is just a measurement system, it has no ability to correct/process what's going on with your speakers/room unless you add additional devices like a MiniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate and EQ multiple subs.

So if you don't have any additional DSP/EQ devices, then REW can only guide you to optimize certain things like subwoofer placement / phase, speaker and acoustic treatment placement, the correct crossover and/or distance setting to make sure the blend between the LCR and subwoofer is in phase at the crossover, etc.

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post #4063 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:32 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros

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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
No problem. I’m just glad to have something useful to share, even if it’s small. I think I learn something every day. Or maybe I just forget stuff and relearn it without realizing!Only thing I’m afraid of is I might be making your AudiOCD worse. Lol.
Nice to see someone putting time in the trenches to learn about, and tune their system. Nice work.


Thank you so much! Don’t know what you mean with “audiocd” though. I think you meant audio.

I’m glad I have finally pulled the trigger a couple of months ago to buy the Umik-1 mic, and see what Audyssey is really doing to my room. After a year and a half figuring out what to do while looking for treatment options, little did I know that the solution was a couple of hours investing in this wonderful REW program. It was the second time I’ve had the time to utilize the fullest potential of the mic and the software.

I can finally enjoy my system in stead of figuring out why the sound is off and what I can do about it.
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post #4064 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:42 AM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros

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Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
Thank you so much! Don’t know what you mean with “audiocd” though. I think you meant audio.
AudiOCD...

Audio-OCD. It’s my nerd name for it.
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post #4065 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
AudiOCD...

Audio-OCD. It’s my nerd name for it.



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post #4066 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 03:00 PM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros

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Originally Posted by osv1 View Post
there is no getting around it's crippled capabilities and it's misguided implementation for smartphones, when it should have been written as a pc app.

There is a PC program that allows you to work on the curves and adjustments. It is called Ratbuddyssey.

I will go get the link, but the recent update of the app broke it, if memory serves.

Mark

Link: Announcing ratbuddyssey - a tool for tweaking Audyssey MultEQ app files
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post #4067 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
Just download this app and run the calibration notice the top rear R result.Running through avr dist is not 0. I dont know if its a bug. I have 7.1.4 setup.
Bug, Factory Reset worked for me.
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post #4068 of 5235 Old 04-23-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
There is a PC program that allows you to work on the curves and adjustments. It is called Ratbuddyssey.
thx for that heads-up, it's interesting to see the evolution from audyssey pro on a pc being abandoned, in favor of the smartphone app.

i'll definitely check out the ratbuddyssey.
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iOS app v1.4.1 just released today. It does not say what changed over the 1.4.0.
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Originally Posted by toffi View Post
I just recently learned of the MultEQ Audyssey App , which is somewhat a bummer since I just purchased a Denon X3500h
Why? The app uses the same version of Audyssey on the AVR so if you wanted the best version of Audyssey then the X3500H was the correct model to purchase.
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
There is a PC program that allows you to work on the curves and adjustments. It is called Ratbuddyssey.

I will go get the link, but the recent update of the app broke it, if memory serves.
I'll see if it's a quick fix tonight, I do have a full rewrite in the works.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
REW is just a measurement system, it has no ability to correct/process what's going on with your speakers/room unless you add additional devices like a MiniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate and EQ multiple subs.

So if you don't have any additional DSP/EQ devices, then REW can only guide you to optimize certain things like subwoofer placement / phase, speaker and acoustic treatment placement, the correct crossover and/or distance setting to make sure the blend between the LCR and subwoofer is in phase at the crossover, etc.
Right. I forgot about that. No way to communicate with Audyssey.

I intend to experiment with REW real soon now. (I have a Umik-1 mike [20th century abbreviation].)

It's too bad that the MultEq editor lacks a measurement-only mode; it seems like that'd be a trivial addition to verify the correction.

Editorial comment: I have the impression that D&M outsourced the app to a software company, not an audio one.
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post #4073 of 5235 Old 04-26-2019, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It's less wacky if you examine how Audyssey sets levels. They basically start with a level matching the same way you might with a hand held SPL meter, and then apply all of their correction and intend to balance things out in the end. The problem is that strong peaks can skew 90% of the frequency range significantly lower in level, leaving the correction to fix the peaks and bring the level back up, or EQ everything up to the peak. Sometimes this makes for some curious effects at the upper and lower end of the frequency range where it stops correcting. The bigger issue is that the frequency response correction is based on an average of measurements, not that single measurement with the peak in it. Depending on the other responses it gets, the result could very easily be set too low, or too high.

The reality to wrap our heads around is that Audyssey is an automated tool which is as smart as the guys programming it, but only as useful as the data you put in it (measurements in this case). Anyone who starts taking a look at the real measurements at those locations will come away realizing the degree of conditional decisions the program has to make, and why a little oversight can make a world of difference in the end result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I would just like to confirm that if we are limiting EQ using this app to 500Hz, is it still not recommended to adjust levels post-calibration?

Thanks for the great discussion.

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It always makes sense to check the levels, but you really need to do it with an external signal with Audyssey running. For anything beyond checking signal throughput, consider the internal test tones useless once you run Audyssey. You can use REW to directly check at least the 7.1 channels.
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Thanks Mark, I appreciate the input, and that makes total sense.

What is your opinion about adjusting the subwoofer distances (same subs in the same locations) from Audyssey found on the Marantz AV8805 a couple of weeks ago to those you set during the calibration in 2010?

Audyssey found that Subwoofer 1 (the front wall subs) was 19.8 feet, and you had it set at 18.5.
Audyssey found that Subwoofer 2 (the side wall subs) was 17.5 feet, and you had it set at 15.1.

For the Left, Center, Right, Left Wide, Right Wide speakers (the other channels that are the same speakers in the same positions as 2010), there is .8 feet difference or less between what Audyssey found on the Marantz AV8805 and your 2010 settings.

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
The distances figured are based on higher frequency arrival time from the impulse limited/rounded over by the high frequency limit.

Blending with the main speakers is more a combined matter of phasing and arrival time. The calculation gives you a good starting point to then adjust +/- 1/2 to full period around the crossover, but the calculated distance in no way guarantees good summation through crossover.
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Mark - just to be clear, I was NOT suggesting that one should not adjust levels post-calibration. I was only saying one shouldn't do so using the INTERNAL test tones, but rather with an external source (for the reasons discussed in that link and what Mark S reiterated above).

Absolutely nothing wrong with "seasoning to taste" with post-Audyssey adjustments. Like Mark S said, Audyssey is an automated tool which by nature will involve some compromises and shortcuts for a "one size fits all" solution, and for an experienced end user IMO the results of running Audyssey should be treated as a starting point, not the finish line. It saves you a lot of time by getting most of the basics (levels, delay, etc) in the ballpark, but I nearly always tweak a bit afterwards.



I don't trust XT32 to set delays for multiple subs, it doesn't ever measure their interaction / phase when combined, it just pings each sub individually and sets the delay based on the arrival time. That may, or may not, result in a good blend of the multiple subs. I've had situations where XT32 nailed it, and other times where it totally borked it and the subs ended up totally out of phase.

Most "advanced" end users with multiple subs prefer to send a single sub out from the receiver to an external solution (like MiniDSP 2x4) and then align/phase all the subs downstream, and then Audyssey calibrates it as one combined sub. Then you don't have to worry about Audyssey messing up the inter-sub delays, you just have to check the global delay of the subs vs. the mains to make sure it's smooth across the crossover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Thanks for clearing that up about the level adjustment, Batpig.

For the distances, I was just thinking I could make it easy on myself since Mark did all this work on the Denon AVR-4311CI with MultEQ XT32, and the only thing that changed since then was the processor, which is now a Marantz AV8805. Well, maybe very slight differences in microphone placement.

To be clear, for the for the four subwoofers (paired in the same exact way) and the Left, Center, Right, Left Wide, Right Wide speakers, absolutely nothing else changed since 2010. And yes, I am using the same crossover (80 Hz) that Mark used.

Alas, it doesn't sound like I can just port over the distance settings from 2010 and call it a day.

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
I also find it odd when people use a SPL meter after Audyssey. Both meters will have up to 3db in error so who knows which is more accurate. My money is on the XT32 mic. As long as levels are all matched, that’s all that matters. Every review I’ve read for D&M have all said XT32 set levels almost or near perfect. Unless you’re using a very expensive low error meter why not just use the supplied mic. You’re trusting it to EQ the speakers you’ve bought but not adjust levels? I dunno, seems odd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think it's fine to check the RELATIVE levels and make sure Audyssey got them right, but with a basic SPL meter you're correct that the error bar is probably in the same range as that for the Audyssey mic (which is +/- 2dB tolerance by spec). So if the SPL meter says all speakers are level matching at 73dB or 76dB then I would leave it alone and not reset them all to 75dB (who knows if that's actually 75dB? unless you have a reference meter against which to cross check)

If you have REW and a calibrated mic then the level setting should be more accurate, and you can run sweeps / tones with the Audyssey EQ applied as well.

Personally I tweak levels by ear based on specific demo material I noted a few posts up. In my room I've found it's less about accurate SPL level matching (in my experience Audyssey has always gotten this basically right, and as someone noted above it's the easiest of tasks to do) but more about perceptual balance between the speakers. The back half of my room is asymmetrical so I get some weird issues with the left side surround, and I usually end up taming the surrounds by 2-3dB globally (especially helpful to offset DEQ a bit).
Sorry for quoting all those posts, but they are all relevant to my update that I confirmed that...drumroll...the levels were all set correct except for the height channels, which are all 5 dB hot! I'm not mad at them about that, though.

I also confirmed that subwoofer distance measurements that @Mark Seaton set on my Denon AVR-4311CI way back in 2010 still result in the best blend at the crossover. Like I said above, nothing changed except the processor. The only minor niggle is that the Marantz AV8805 settings are .4 off, and the distance settings I manually enter into the app do not make it over to the processor. Anyway, I am glad I finally confirmed my suspicion that those distance settings would translate.

For the SPL levels, here is the process I used. First, the levels had been reverted to default after I learned that was a mistake to adjust them using the internal test tones. When I measured with REW, Audyssey was on, and I used a MiniDSP UMIK-1, REW's SPL meter measurement and pink noise generator. I set the volume level on the processor to match close to 75 dB on the Left speaker, and the volume was -18 dB.

I left the volume at -18 dB, and measured the remaining speakers. When I measured the first height speaker, I was like OK, I don't mind that they are a little hot, but let's see if that speaker is an anomaly. I didn't think it was going to be, as all the other speakers thus far had been dead on 75 dB, and all the heights were dead on 80 dB. Interesting, huh?

Mark
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post #4074 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 08:42 AM
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So if I cut off the frequency range from 300Hz to 500Hz do I have to use the reference curve or can I Still use the Flat curve? my front speakers are 10.2 feet from me and my center is 9.7, flat sounds better probably because I am close to the front speakers. I read that if close to the front speakers use flat. also what is the difference between option 1 and 2 in the target sound option on the app? And finally what is the real difference between flat and reference. I could be wrong and probably am but does the reference curve have a high cutoff and the flat does not?

Thanks

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Last edited by Dave-T; 04-28-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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post #4075 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 10:02 AM
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The reference curve has a high-end rolloff at frequencies much higher than 300-500 Hz. If you aren't calibrating above those low frequencies, the flat and reference curves would be identical.

Denon x4400h, Samsung LED 1080p TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, Darbeevision, etc.
Headphone system: Focal Clear, Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1, Denon DVD-3910
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post #4076 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 10:14 AM
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The reference curve has a high-end rolloff at frequencies much higher than 300-500 Hz. If you aren't calibrating above those low frequencies, the flat and reference curves would be identical.

Denon x4400h, Samsung LED 1080p TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, Darbeevision, etc.
Headphone system: Focal Clear, Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1, Denon DVD-3910
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post #4077 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Sorry for quoting all those posts, but they are all relevant to my update that I confirmed that...drumroll...the levels were all set correct except for the height channels, which are all 5 dB hot! I'm not mad at them about that, though.

I also confirmed that subwoofer distance measurements that @Mark Seaton set on my Denon AVR-4311CI way back in 2010 still result in the best blend at the crossover. Like I said above, nothing changed except the processor. The only minor niggle is that the Marantz AV8805 settings are .4 off, and the distance settings I manually enter into the app do not make it over to the processor. Anyway, I am glad I finally confirmed my suspicion that those distance settings would translate.

For the SPL levels, here is the process I used. First, the levels had been reverted to default after I learned that was a mistake to adjust them using the internal test tones. When I measured with REW, Audyssey was on, and I used a MiniDSP UMIK-1, REW's SPL meter measurement and pink noise generator. I set the volume level on the processor to match close to 75 dB on the Left speaker, and the volume was -18 dB.

I left the volume at -18 dB, and measured the remaining speakers. When I measured the first height speaker, I was like OK, I don't mind that they are a little hot, but let's see if that speaker is an anomaly. I didn't think it was going to be, as all the other speakers thus far had been dead on 75 dB, and all the heights were dead on 80 dB. Interesting, huh?

Mark
How are you routing a signal to the processor and height channels? Unless you are using a test disc or 7.1 LPCM input you don't have Audyssey in the chain. The default measurements should look correct, as audyssey sets them first without EQ and then applies correction, and to the best of everyone's knowledge, Audyssey is NOT in the loop when using the manual noise testing.

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"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #4078 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
How are you routing a signal to the processor and height channels? Unless you are using a test disc or 7.1 LPCM input you don't have Audyssey in the chain. The default measurements should look correct, as audyssey sets them first without EQ and then applies correction, and to the best of everyone's knowledge, Audyssey is NOT in the loop when using the manual noise testing.
Mark, I am using REW HDMI from a laptop (7.1 capable) to the front (AUX 1) input on the Marantz AV8805, which is showing Multi CH input. I am confident that Audyssey was working, because I made the 12 recommended measurements from the REW 101 guide, and was turning Audyssey on and off during that process. I can see the difference in the measurements also.

Regarding the subwoofer distance adjustments to optimize the blend at the crossover, here is my graph. While not that great a difference, I followed the Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak Procedure. I am still new at REW, so any input would be appreciated.

Edit: I uploaded a corrected (unsmoothed and properly spaced) graph. Apparently, the graphs are zoomed out when the images are captured, so I zoomed in more (2 dB on the X-axis) to get to the 5 dB rendering below.

Also, does anyone think I can add a 5 dB boost at 37-38 Hz to correct that dip at 37.73 Hz? I am not sure if that is a null or not, but my room is treated with a lot of super-chunks on the front wall.



Thanks.

Mark
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Last edited by giomania; 04-28-2019 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Adding a graph
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post #4079 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 04:02 PM
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Question about using app and audyssey..

If I don't want to use audyssey on my subs (as I have an external eq for them), can I :

Turn off subs and use app to measure just speakers..

Then after eq is calculated, on Marantz turn back on sub and make all the speakers small? Will audyssey eq still be active on speakers except sub ?

Or when you turn back on sub does it not allow audyssey to be used and you have to re measure...

Don't have a Marantz yet, but getting info to make a decision...
I know on yamaha, anthem etc, you can eq all speakers without sub.. Thrn after eq is calculated, you can then turn on subs and still have eq for all speakers except subs...
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post #4080 of 5235 Old 04-28-2019, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I have no plans to upgrade my AVR right now but I was just wondering if there is any issue uploading a calibration to a different AVR than it was initially performed with, assuming it uses the same version of Audyssey and speaker configuration remains the same?


Just a FYI, I have had the Av7703, AV7704, and now the AV8805 and you cannot upload other AV Aud versions into a different AV model. You need to do a new calibration on the new AV/R.

Thanks.


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