MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 148 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4411 of 5204 Old 07-30-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
Thank you! I will go back and put the sub to 200hz and bump the sub trim in avr settings, lol thank you for your advice! This MultEQ app is nice but kinda confusing to a noob like me..😬
You shouldn't adjust the limit of the subwoofer. Keep that at the default (250hz I think), because you want the sub frequencies equalized/flattened as much as possible.

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post #4412 of 5204 Old 07-30-2019, 12:34 PM
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Can someone please help me understand these graphs? Lol I am such a noob.. the first graph is a befor and after of my sub. Then I went into the MultEQ filter frequency range tab in the app and dragged the slider in the subwoofer section from 250hz all the way to the left down to 20hz. Then I went back to the Room correction results tab in the app to check how the sub graph looks now and to my surprise, it looks identical to the before graph and you can see what I mean in the second graph pic. And the last 2 pics are of my speaker detection results, my question on those is, shouldn't there be a crossover number for the sub? For the speakers it says 40hz but it's left blank for the sub?? I hope I'm making sense in what I'm trying to say, any help is greatly appreciated.
I'm no expert on this subject, but from what I've read lately on this thread the 40hz settings for the speakers is a bug from the last update for the app. Hopefully one of the experts will confirm that.

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post #4413 of 5204 Old 07-30-2019, 02:35 PM
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was hoping something has been changed after a few updates of the App. unfortunately not for me, just gave the current version 1.4.2 a new try and still have same issues
rolloff below 20HZ/anomalies in the response, so far the AVR. Audyssey (older method) still perform better in my room the graph below speaks for it self.
Red Curve =App
Blue Curve = AVR.
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post #4414 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 08:21 AM
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What kind or type of graph should be consider as acceptable?

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Guys, can let me know if these are acceptable or not? I have a X3500H, measured 8 points. LCR are Elac B6.2 and C5.2, Elac A4 for Front Dolby enabled, surround is Deftech 600. Sub is a Velodyne Cht-8Q. MLP is 2.0m Audy measured for centre speaker, 2.2m for LR. Thanks.

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post #4415 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 09:06 AM
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Check out the FAQ in my signature to learn more about the app.

The AFTER graphs are just guesses done by the app. There is no reason to pay them much attention unless they look really messed up.
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post #4416 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 09:09 AM
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Hey Users, I should probably add something about the 40Hz x-over problem to the FAQ. I have not encountered it. My understanding is that the app is always setting everyone's x-over to 40Hz and that to change it you need to go into the settings in the AVR after uploading a run. Is that correct?

Anything else recent that I should add?
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post #4417 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
Hey Users, I should probably add something about the 40Hz x-over problem to the FAQ. I have not encountered it. My understanding is that the app is always setting everyone's x-over to 40Hz and that to change it you need to go into the settings in the AVR after uploading a run. Is that correct?

Anything else recent that I should add?

I have not seen anyone else post what I have seen, but when I run the app it chose 90Hz for my fronts. What I think is going on is the app is choosing a cross-over, which is 40Hz for most of the folks who have reported this, but after it sets the cross-over value it isn't allowing it to be changed.


I am a total newbie with the app and Audyssey in general.
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post #4418 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
Hey Users, I should probably add something about the 40Hz x-over problem to the FAQ. I have not encountered it. My understanding is that the app is always setting everyone's x-over to 40Hz and that to change it you need to go into the settings in the AVR after uploading a run. Is that correct?



Anything else recent that I should add?


It only set some of my speakers to 40 Hz, but I did have to change them in the AVR because changes in the app were not communicated to the AVR, except for one instance, if memory serves.

So, maybe the FAQ can state that some users reported issues with this and to just check the settings after uploading to the AVR?

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post #4419 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 10:17 AM
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My towers were set to 40 Hz and I tried to change in the app and send to the AVR, it did not adjust the AVR. When I re-opened the app it still had 40 Hz noted for the towers. All the other speakers had the crossover set to what I would have expected.

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post #4420 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post
My towers were set to 40 Hz and I tried to change in the app and send to the AVR, it did not adjust the AVR. When I re-opened the app it still had 40 Hz noted for the towers. All the other speakers had the crossover set to what I would have expected.


I am experiencing the same issue.

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post #4421 of 5204 Old 07-31-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by haman View Post
Guys, can let me know if these are acceptable or not? I have a X3500H, measured 8 points.

LCR are Elac B6.2 and C5.2, Elac A4 for Front Dolby enabled, surround is Deftech 600. Sub is a Velodyne Cht-8Q. MLP is 2.0m Audy measured for centre speaker, 2.2m for LR.

Thanks.
Those graphs show a mostly excellent response. But remember those are just created by the program to reflect what it thinks the results will be. If you desire to dig deeper I would suggest downloading REW and getting a Umik microphone to find out what the true response is.
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I added #13 to the FAQ.

13) Crossover setting issue:
As of Android version 1.4.2 (I'm unsure exactly which version it started with) there is a problem with getting the correct Crossover Setting to transfer to the AVR. The app is sending crossover values of 40Hz regardless of user input. To change this setting you need to transfer your calibration to the AVR then in the AVR's settings change the Crossover Setting to your desired value (usually around 80Hz).
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post #4423 of 5204 Old 08-01-2019, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
I added #13 to the FAQ.

13) Crossover setting issue:
As of Android version 1.4.2 (I'm unsure exactly which version it started with) there is a problem with getting the correct Crossover Setting to transfer to the AVR. The app is sending crossover values of 40Hz regardless of user input. To change this setting you need to transfer your calibration to the AVR then in the AVR's settings change the Crossover Setting to your desired value (usually around 80Hz).
have just tested version 1.4.2 , i havn't had the 40HZ Crossover issue , using Huawei p20 and Marantz Sr7013 it works flawlessly here, it just send to AVR. what ever i set Crossover to in the App.....well i guess this is just like the rolloff below 20HZ issue , some users will encounter the issue and some not.
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post #4424 of 5204 Old 08-01-2019, 07:04 AM
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Thanks I'll see if I get time to try it later.
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post #4425 of 5204 Old 08-01-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
I added #13 to the FAQ.



13) Crossover setting issue:
As of Android version 1.4.2 (I'm unsure exactly which version it started with) there is a problem with getting the correct Crossover Setting to transfer to the AVR. The app is sending crossover values of 40Hz regardless of user input. To change this setting you need to transfer your calibration to the AVR then in the AVR's settings change the Crossover Setting to your desired value (usually around 80Hz).


FYI: I am using the iOS app, but not sure about what app version this anomaly was present.


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post #4426 of 5204 Old 08-01-2019, 08:03 AM
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I am experiencing the same issue.
Same thing happened to me yesterday for the first time
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post #4427 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 09:06 AM
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Hello! Sorry for being dumb and wasting peoples time but I’m new to this and not sure what to do.

Could someone look at these graphs and tell me which is better for my sub? The first photo reaches 0db sooner. But the second photo has a more even response before and after 100hz. Just confused as to what to look for. Thanks so much!!





https://imgur.com/a/XJR0xHd
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post #4428 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 09:31 AM
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The first photo reaches 0db sooner. But the second photo has a more even response before and after 100hz. Just confused as to what to look for. Thanks so much!!
Listen to both and see? I'd probably go with the first image as it will provide more bass and more bass extension = sound better.

It might be worth it to do the sub crawl though.

https://www.audioholics.com/home-the...ofer-placement
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post #4429 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 09:35 AM
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Listen to both and see? I'd probably go with the first image as it will provide more bass and more bass extension = sound better.

It might be worth it to do the sub crawl though.

https://www.audioholics.com/home-the...ofer-placement
Thanks for the response! Yeah I listened and couldn’t tell much difference but I’m not great at picking up things.

I was just wondering what was more important. An even response, or the line reaching 0db sooner. So you would say having the graph reach the 0db mark at the lower hz mark is more important?
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post #4430 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 09:39 AM
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I believe the "best" is as flat a line as possible with the most extension as possible. I'm guess your crossover is set around 80Hz so most of the response above that is thrown away.
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post #4431 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 09:47 AM
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I believe the "best" is as flat a line as possible with the most extension as possible. I'm guess your crossover is set around 80Hz so most of the response above that is thrown away.
Yeah my crossover is 80hz. Didn’t think about that. So most of the even line for the second photo doesn’t matter then? Looks like the first photo might be the way to go.

That was the result of having the 2 subs in both corners vs second graph having both 2 feet away from walls and right next to the tv. I was worried about bass distortion being close to corners but looks like it might be better?

I’ll keep tinkering and try evening out that first graph thanks @mlee1
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post #4432 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Brucey View Post
Hello! Sorry for being dumb and wasting peoples time but I’m new to this and not sure what to do.

Could someone look at these graphs and tell me which is better for my sub? The first photo reaches 0db sooner. But the second photo has a more even response before and after 100hz. Just confused as to what to look for. Thanks so much!!
Honestly, not to be harsh, but both are pretty terrible starting responses. You can cut down a peak but you can't boost your way out of a null. Also boosting will greatly increased power requirements and distortion (a 3dB bump = 2x the power) so Audyssey is limited to 9dB max boost.

As you you see in your graphs, Audyssey is unable to completely "fill in" the dips. In the first graph that gigantic null around 50-60Hz is still present in the "after" graph. And in the second graph the sagging low end response cannot be fully brought back up (and even if it could, the crazy amount of boost required would make it sound like garbage because you'd have no headroom).

Between the two, I'd go with #1 because at least you're getting some deep bass output. But I would try to find another position without such crazy dips, or better yet add a second sub to smooth the response.
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post #4433 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 03:27 PM
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Honestly, not to be harsh, but both are pretty terrible starting responses. You can cut down a peak but you can't boost your way out of a null. Also boosting will greatly increased power requirements and distortion (a 3dB bump = 2x the power) so Audyssey is limited to 9dB max boost.

As you you see in your graphs, Audyssey is unable to completely "fill in" the dips. In the first graph that gigantic null around 50-60Hz is still present in the "after" graph. And in the second graph the sagging low end response cannot be fully brought back up (and even if it could, the crazy amount of boost required would make it sound like garbage because you'd have no headroom).

Between the two, I'd go with #1 because at least you're getting some deep bass output. But I would try to find another position without such crazy dips, or better yet add a second sub to smooth the response.
No offense taken! I just wasn’t sure what I was suppose to look for or how to read these graphs. I think I know what to look for now trying to get as close to 0db from 0-80hz, even if it’s not as smooth, While everything above that doesn’t matter as much.

I do have two subs. And the first graph was them in them in each of the 2 front corners. The second graph was them on each side of the tv away from walls and corners. I’ll keep tinkering. Thanks!
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post #4434 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Brucey View Post
No offense taken! I just wasn’t sure what I was suppose to look for or how to read these graphs. I think I know what to look for now trying to get as close to 0db from 0-80hz, even if it’s not as smooth, While everything above that doesn’t matter as much.
Yes, the goal is to avoid (as much as possible) the crazy dips / nulls since you can't boost your way out of them. Big peaks can be brought down to flatten the overall response.

As an example, here's my graph with 2 subs up front. I have this big peak at 30Hz due to a room resonance, but all of the dips are 5dB or less in magnitude so easy for Audyssey to flatten out the response. Things get uglier above 120Hz but who cares? the sub doesn't play that high.



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I do have two subs. And the first graph was them in them in each of the 2 front corners. The second graph was them on each side of the tv away from walls and corners. I’ll keep tinkering. Thanks!
Hmm, if that's with 2 subs then they are not in phase with each other, you should be able to get a much better response than that.

The corner loading (1st graph) gives you maximum bass energy, but also energizes the room modes which is why you see such crazy swings from peak to dip. That said, if you get the phase nailed down having subs in different corners should provide a much smoother response if the 2 subs are balancing instead of combining to reinforce the same peaks/dips.

I would keep experimenting, but try flipping the phase 180 on one of the subs then re-run Audyssey and see how it looks. You might end up with a slightly flatter response. If the subs have variable phase knobs, you can experiment and try different settings (as a quick test just run Audyssey with the minimum 3 positions, even unplug the other speakers except Front L/R so it only takes a few minutes to measure the 2.1 setup in 3 positions). I bet you'll find a setting that fills that dip in.
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post #4435 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 06:36 PM
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I have a couple of questions:
- once I have used the app, and transferred it to my 8500, if I make some tweaks, can I send it back to be saved on the app on my iPad?
- if I have it on my ipad, how can I transfer the app to my iphone, just download it again on the iphone?

Thanks
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post #4436 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yes, the goal is to avoid (as much as possible) the crazy dips / nulls since you can't boost your way out of them. Big peaks can be brought down to flatten the overall response.

As an example, here's my graph with 2 subs up front. I have this big peak at 30Hz due to a room resonance, but all of the dips are 5dB or less in magnitude so easy for Audyssey to flatten out the response. Things get uglier above 120Hz but who cares? the sub doesn't play that high.





Hmm, if that's with 2 subs then they are not in phase with each other, you should be able to get a much better response than that.

The corner loading (1st graph) gives you maximum bass energy, but also energizes the room modes which is why you see such crazy swings from peak to dip. That said, if you get the phase nailed down having subs in different corners should provide a much smoother response if the 2 subs are balancing instead of combining to reinforce the same peaks/dips.

I would keep experimenting, but try flipping the phase 180 on one of the subs then re-run Audyssey and see how it looks. You might end up with a slightly flatter response. If the subs have variable phase knobs, you can experiment and try different settings (as a quick test just run Audyssey with the minimum 3 positions, even unplug the other speakers except Front L/R so it only takes a few minutes to measure the 2.1 setup in 3 positions). I bet you'll find a setting that fills that dip in.
Wow! @batpig your sub graph is a beauty!! Thanks so much for the advice. There’s no knob on my sub (elac debut 3010 x2) its all controlled with an app. But the phase and delay for both are at 0 so i’ll Try changing the phase like you suggested and see what happens!

I have xt32 and i thought it said that it automatically matches the subs together but I guess not. Thanks for letting me know this is a huge help! I’ll start with putting 180 phase on one like you said (I can set phase from 0-360) thanks again!
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post #4437 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 06:59 PM
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I have a couple of questions:
- once I have used the app, and transferred it to my 8500, if I make some tweaks, can I send it back to be saved on the app on my iPad?
No, you can't send back from the AVR to the mobile device. So for example if you adjust crossovers, distances, speaker volumes you should manually enter those into the saved app profile (Speaker Detection Results) so if you reload later you don't have to remember the tweaks you made and re-do them all.

What I like to do is run a calibration, then make the basic tweaks I know I will do (e.g. raising crossovers up to my preferred setting, bumping the sub 2dB, etc) and then save it. Then I clone a copy of that and make my other tweaks on the copy (e.g. adjusting target curves etc) so I always have a "baseline file" that is untouched that I can clone if I want to start from scratch.


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if I have it on my ipad, how can I transfer the app to my iphone, just download it again on the iphone?
I've never done that, but I believe people use the "Send a Copy" or "Move To" option to share the calibration file to a cloud drive like DropBox or Google Drive. Then you can download it to the other mobile device and "browse" for the file to add it. Kind of cumbersome IMO and the app is not really meant for bouncing between different mobile devices.
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post #4438 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Brucey View Post
I have xt32 and i thought it said that it automatically matches the subs together but I guess not.
XT32 can be hit or miss with dual sub integration. It just pings each one individually and then sets the delay based on how long it takes to hear the sound at the mic. That doesn't guarantee that the two subs are going to interact in phase at all frequencies. The long wavelengths of deep bass are bouncing around the room and can arrive out of phase at certain frequencies even if the "timing" is nominally correct.

As an example, several years ago in my old place I had two different size/style subs, and assumed XT32 would phase and blend them properly. The bass sounded really terrible after running Audyssey, so I did some measurements and found that the subs were totally out of phase at the distances that Audyssey chose. Flipping the phase to 180deg on the second sub put them back in phase... so I re-ran Audyssey with the phase at 180 on sub2 and boom, all better.

Here's a graph of the results, the red line is the summed response with the distances that Audyssey calculated. The blue line is the same distances, just flipping sub2 to 180deg phase. You can see the giant trough from 30-60Hz gets filled in when they are in phase, from 35-50Hz or so I was losing 10-15dB out output that Audyssey was trying to boost back up! That's why it sounded like garbage. With the subs in phase, I basically got "free output" and extra headroom because they weren't fighting each other anymore.



That said, your results are pretty poor for XT32 SubEQ HT. Looks like it's not getting anywhere close. You are using the dual sub outputs and it's pinging them separately right? Are you using the built-in EQ controls of the subs or any other DSP that could be interfering?
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post #4439 of 5204 Old 08-02-2019, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
XT32 can be hit or miss with dual sub integration. It just pings each one individually and then sets the delay based on how long it takes to hear the sound at the mic. That doesn't guarantee that the two subs are going to interact in phase at all frequencies. The long wavelengths of deep bass are bouncing around the room and can arrive out of phase at certain frequencies even if the "timing" is nominally correct.

As an example, several years ago in my old place I had two different size/style subs, and assumed XT32 would phase and blend them properly. The bass sounded really terrible after running Audyssey, so I did some measurements and found that the subs were totally out of phase at the distances that Audyssey chose. Flipping the phase to 180deg on the second sub put them back in phase... so I re-ran Audyssey with the phase at 180 on sub2 and boom, all better.

Here's a graph of the results, the red line is the summed response with the distances that Audyssey calculated. The blue line is the same distances, just flipping sub2 to 180deg phase. You can see the giant trough from 30-60Hz gets filled in when they are in phase, from 35-50Hz or so I was losing 10-15dB out output that Audyssey was trying to boost back up! That's why it sounded like garbage. With the subs in phase, I basically got "free output" and extra headroom because they weren't fighting each other anymore.



That said, your results are pretty poor for XT32 SubEQ HT. Looks like it's not getting anywhere close. You are using the dual sub outputs and it's pinging them separately right? Are you using the built-in EQ controls of the subs or any other DSP that could be interfering?
That super interesting! Yeah looks like you got a major improvement. I think I’m using the dual sub output correctly. In channel select it says 2 subwoofers and it pings both of them. My subs do have auto eq where you place the phone near the sub and then again at the listening position. Should I try turning it off you think?
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post #4440 of 5204 Old 08-03-2019, 03:39 AM
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My subs don't have a phase switch (polarity switch) only phase control knobs
Is there any way to introduce a phase switch (polarity switch) in my system?
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