MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 151 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4501 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I have an denon x4400h that I recently picked up from A4L. Just upgraded to Atmos.

My previous receiver did not due sub correction so I invested in a miniDSP to correct and time align (using REW).

So as I upgraded to the x4400h, I left the MiniDSP active in hopes that it's correction for the room and time alignment would stay in tact and that Audyssey would just make small to little changes.

Is this the correct path, or should I bypass
yes usaully this is the correct path and the recommended way to do it, u perform the room correction in an avr/proc. as the last thing, but if it was me, i would start by bypassing the MiniDSP all togather , and see how Audy. perform the correction on it,s own, usaully audy. xt32 do's great work on subs.

Last edited by marco1975; 08-12-2019 at 10:15 AM.
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post #4502 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I have an denon x4400h that I recently picked up from A4L. Just upgraded to Atmos.

My previous receiver did not due sub correction so I invested in a miniDSP to correct and time align (using REW).

So as I upgraded to the x4400h, I left the MiniDSP active in hopes that it's correction for the room and time alignment would stay in tact and that Audyssey would just make small to little changes.

Is this the correct path, or should I bypass the MiniDSP, run Audyssey, and then re-calibrate with the MiniDSP afterwards if needed or remove the MiniDSP altogether? If I do remove the MiniDSP I'd probably leave it in the chain just with EQ deactivated and time delay at 0, since it's handling the XLR wiring to my sub-amps, as well as some EQ to some bass shakers.

With this all said, does the MultiEQ editor app let me disable sub EQ or give me any options that I should look into that don't come default just running Audyssey in the receiver.
Yes, if you have a MiniDSP which you've already used to phase your subs you would bypass the "SubEQ HT" dual sub calibration of the AVR and just let the AVR think it's a single sub. If the sub response is already fairly flat then Audyssey shouldn't have to do much work.

The biggest caveat is if you've dialed in some kind of house curve or other non-flat response, Audyssey will fight against it and try to make it flat again. So if you want to add a house curve bump, you should do it AFTER the Audyssey calibration. Or, if you do not like what Audyssey does to the sub, you can lower the "filter frequency range" to the minimum 20Hz on the sub channel which will effectively eliminate Audyssey EQ on the sub.
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post #4503 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
And i have XT32 on my Marantz 8805. So think the app would run the same filter/resolution but with a bit more control and options. sorry if i wasn't clear i was referring to the Audyssey app in the first post above.
The App doesn't have any "native" Audyssey software, it's leveraging the software in the AVR/processor. So if your AVR has XT, the app will use XT. If your AVR has XT32, it uses XT32.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
It's just strange how many negative comments you read about it here, i have been using Audyssey maybe since 2009 so that's 10 years, first couple of years XT then XT32 for the last 7-8 years.i always hear better improved sound in general when its on, especially for low frequencies which is the main problem area. don't know how people say they like it off.
Many of the negative comments about Audyssey are a combination of bias (people having a native suspicion of "automagic" systems), poor technique (e.g. sitting the mic on the couch cushion or coffee table), or people just being used to the colored / inaccurate sound of their non-EQ'd setup. Also there are legitimate gripes with pre-XT32 versions messing up the highs as I discussed in my prior post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Thanks pbz, yes i have XT32. good to hear, so keeping it full-range or till 500hz will have little impact on sound, would have to try both and compare.
To be clear, XT32 will still change the high frequencies. It's still trying to "shape" the response towards the target curve. What it's not doing is all those little wasteful "micro corrections" that show up as all that "hair" on the graph, but it's still changing the response. So if you have speakers with severely rolled off highs, XT32 may boost them to meet the target curve (or vice versa).

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Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Thanks, how about the center? guessing it's the only speaker i could limit alone? Also will the limiting be done after i run all positions on full-range? or before?
Yes of course any non-paired speakers (e.g. Center, Subwoofer, a single Surround Back if you had a 6.1 setup) will be adjusted individually. All the stereo pair speakers are done by pair.

The limiting is done after you run Audyssey, Audyssey will ALWAYS measure the full range of the speaker to calculated the EQ filter baseline.
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post #4504 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 12:16 PM
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Yeah XT32 definitely changes the top end. My Klipsch RP’s have a lot of extension and when I use either Reference or Flat the top end is changed and lacks clarity. I was expecting Flat to have more treble but it doesn’t. I’m really enjoying MultiEQ minutes to 300hz.
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post #4505 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
(snip)

I’m really enjoying MultiEQ minutes to 300hz.
I'm trying to guess what this means. Is it some sort of spellcheck strangeness? Could you clarify?
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post #4506 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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I believe he meant limited to 300 Hz, leaving everything above untouched

Spoiler!
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post #4507 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 03:03 PM
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Lol yes, sorry. iPhone...
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post #4508 of 4542 Old 08-12-2019, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
Yeah XT32 definitely changes the top end. My Klipsch RP’s have a lot of extension and when I use either Reference or Flat the top end is changed and lacks clarity. I was expecting Flat to have more treble but it doesn’t. I’m really enjoying MultiEQ minutes to 300hz.
@rosstg ,
I see you have been moving between limiting and full corrections. This is the flexibility allowed by the app which is good. But I suspect you may move back to full. I have been back and forth with limit and always end up with full. Full gives a more solid stable stereo image, better mid range presence and nicer highs. MRC turned on also helps with listening at a louder volume without having shouty mids.
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post #4509 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 12:13 AM
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Hi, i recently bought an denon avr X3500H driving a set of Qacoustics 3020i, 3090Ci and 3010i. Due to budget limit i haven't got a sub yet. So i run audyssey and completed the setup. Since i don't have an active sub the L-R speakers are automatically set to Large. I can only change them to small if i add a sub. So there is my problem, in volumes up -50db i hear the speakers thumping (booming, i don't know how to describe it well enough). I tried to set the crossover to 80 or even 90 but the problem is there. I'm afraid i will burn them out, so my question is: can i add a virtual sub only to set the main speakers to small? Will this damage my amp since there will be no physical speaker connected to LFE out? Is there any other option?

Thank you in advance
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post #4510 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 12:45 AM
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I have a Denon x1400h and it is only multeq XT... am I missing out on alot when running the MultEQ app, because I don't have XT32??
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post #4511 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
for that u would also still have to do an actaul fr. response measurments to find out whether if u have the rolloff below 20HZ. or not, the graph in the App. dosn't show whats happening there neither in the before or after.
Here's one:








That's a comparison between the sub in direct mode, and with Audyssey Reference correction from the App. No rolloff. My sub dies at 15 hz because my sub dies at 15 hz--Audyssey basically isn't touching it down there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
So as I upgraded to the x4400h, I left the MiniDSP active in hopes that it's correction for the room and time alignment would stay in tact and that Audyssey would just make small to little changes.
That's the way I do it. As you can see from the above, if you get it flat with the MiniDSP (which I have done to 80 hz or so) Audyssey basically won't touch it. You'll want to double check the integration at the crossover region do see if you need any distance tweaking, but you have to do that with or without the MiniDSP in the loop.
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post #4512 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee6 View Post
@rosstg ,
I see you have been moving between limiting and full corrections. This is the flexibility allowed by the app which is good. But I suspect you may move back to full. I have been back and forth with limit and always end up with full. Full gives a more solid stable stereo image, better mid range presence and nicer highs. MRC turned on also helps with listening at a louder volume without having shouty mids.
Yeah I have been going back and fourth but I doubt I will go back to full range. I’ve never liked MRC, I used Flat in every AVR. I only started using the Reference curve since buying the app in January. I prefer my highs to have more sparkle.
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post #4513 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Here's one:




That's a comparison between the sub in direct mode, and with Audyssey Reference correction from the App. No rolloff. My sub dies at 15 hz because my sub dies at 15 hz--Audyssey basically isn't touching it down there.
Glad for you no rolloff below 20hz issue there! but honestly this is the only way to know, u can't rely on what u see in the App. your subs. response looks excelent even without audy. are u using smoothing ?
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post #4514 of 4542 Old 08-13-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Here's one:








That's a comparison between the sub in direct mode, and with Audyssey Reference correction from the App. No rolloff. My sub dies at 15 hz because my sub dies at 15 hz--Audyssey basically isn't touching it down there.



That's the way I do it. As you can see from the above, if you get it flat with the MiniDSP (which I have done to 80 hz or so) Audyssey basically won't touch it. You'll want to double check the integration at the crossover region do see if you need any distance tweaking, but you have to do that with or without the MiniDSP in the loop.

Is this subs only? Please tell me this is subs only!
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post #4515 of 4542 Old 08-14-2019, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Is this subs only? Please tell me this is subs only!
I'm routing for full range with a 30db sub boost. You never know here on AVS.
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post #4516 of 4542 Old 08-14-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
Glad for you no rolloff below 20hz issue there! but honestly this is the only way to know, u can't rely on what u see in the App. your subs. response looks excelent even without audy. are u using smoothing ?
That's smoothed 1/24 octave, just to eliminate the dog hair at the top end.


True, you can't be sure without measurements, but it was pretty obvious for me with the app--with the rolloff the target curve began rolling off a bit above 20 hz, after that was fixed it's a straight line to 20 hz.



People should understand Audyssey won't boost much, if any, down that low, so if your sub naturally rolls off it's going to roll off. I apply a boost with the miniDSP at the bottom end to get my sub that flat before hand--Audyssey won't flatten it at the bottom like that by itself, even if you draw that into the target curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I'm routing for full range with a 30db sub boost. You never know here on AVS.
Heh, no, that's sub only with the crossover temporarily set to 250 hz.
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post #4517 of 4542 Old 08-15-2019, 09:53 AM
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Guys, sorry for not reading the entire thread.

I own an Onkyo NR5008 (xt32 with only reference curve available, unless I use thx modes which force 5.1 upmix), and I'm thinking about purchasing a Denon X3400H so I can get the MultEQ editor app and change the target curve. Is the app robust enough so that it can mimic the Harman curve?

Thanks
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post #4518 of 4542 Old 08-15-2019, 10:48 AM
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Yes, you can do exactly that, but it takes a bit of manual tweaking. If you start reading my posts from here, I describe how to implement a curve with a rise at the low end (in this case 6db but you can make it anything you want): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58133180 . Implementing some rise in the low end allows me to use the DEQ less (Reference Level Offset -10 or -15) without neutering the bass.


If you may want to correct full range to a curve that is more like the Harman, I can dig up some examples on how to shape the curve more like that at the top as well.
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post #4519 of 4542 Old 08-15-2019, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
People should understand Audyssey won't boost much, if any, down that low, so if your sub naturally rolls off it's going to roll off.
sure. i'm absolutely aware of that, but u can clearly see it in my case (see graph below)i do still have the issue that audy. App. is rolling off my subs. response below 20HZ. while audy. AVR. aren't.
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post #4520 of 4542 Old 08-15-2019, 05:02 PM
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You might need to try uninstalling the App and reinstalling it with the update. I had to do that before it worked correctly for me.
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post #4521 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 01:06 AM
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have allready tried that, this is also the latest ver. 1.4.2.
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post #4522 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 11:05 AM
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I don't know what to tell you then. What do the curves look like in the App? Is there any chance mic positions were different or the sub was moved or adjusted in any way between calibrations? How does the sub measure with Audyssey off?
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post #4523 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The App doesn't have any "native" Audyssey software, it's leveraging the software in the AVR/processor. So if your AVR has XT, the app will use XT. If your AVR has XT32, it uses XT32.



Many of the negative comments about Audyssey are a combination of bias (people having a native suspicion of "automagic" systems), poor technique (e.g. sitting the mic on the couch cushion or coffee table), or people just being used to the colored / inaccurate sound of their non-EQ'd setup. Also there are legitimate gripes with pre-XT32 versions messing up the highs as I discussed in my prior post.



To be clear, XT32 will still change the high frequencies. It's still trying to "shape" the response towards the target curve. What it's not doing is all those little wasteful "micro corrections" that show up as all that "hair" on the graph, but it's still changing the response. So if you have speakers with severely rolled off highs, XT32 may boost them to meet the target curve (or vice versa).



Yes of course any non-paired speakers (e.g. Center, Subwoofer, a single Surround Back if you had a 6.1 setup) will be adjusted individually. All the stereo pair speakers are done by pair.

The limiting is done after you run Audyssey, Audyssey will ALWAYS measure the full range of the speaker to calculated the EQ filter baseline.
I just started playing with REW, and decided to look at a simple scan of my Mains + sub before Audyssey and after Audyssey implemented through the app. To my untrained eyes, looks like the app boosted my sub by about 10 dB and did almost nothing to the rest of the spectrum. I did use REW to balance all of my inputs prior to running the app, and post App I disabled MRC and chose the Roll Off 2 (Flat curve). Am I missing something? (I am using a Denon X3400 with XT32)
Green is Audyssey ON, Red is before Audyssey implementation.
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post #4524 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 01:21 PM
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^^^

Looks like you may have had DEQ on for that sweep.
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post #4525 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I don't know what to tell you then. What do the curves look like in the App? Is there any chance mic positions were different or the sub was moved or adjusted in any way between calibrations? How does the sub measure with Audyssey off?
didn,t capture any photos of the garph in the App. but of course it shows that the response is flat 20hz anyway hehe .
no the subs. hasn't been moved or adjusted at all , the meaurments was done in exactly the same spot as the audy. meausurment. mic postions. for both the AVR. and App. tests, this is an App. issue. though they have claimed that they have fixed the issue , it still exist for some users.
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post #4526 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisda1 View Post
I just started playing with REW, and decided to look at a simple scan of my Mains + sub before Audyssey and after Audyssey implemented through the app. To my untrained eyes, looks like the app boosted my sub by about 10 dB and did almost nothing to the rest of the spectrum. I did use REW to balance all of my inputs prior to running the app, and post App I disabled MRC and chose the Roll Off 2 (Flat curve). Am I missing something? (I am using a Denon X3400 with XT32)
Green is Audyssey ON, Red is before Audyssey implementation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Looks like you may have had DEQ on for that sweep.
i second that, i'm pretty sure that the measurment was taken with DEQ. ON and that is why u see the 10 db. boost in the bass, but still Audy. actaully is not doing anything to correct the response and that is weird, something definitly is wrong! i have experienced slightly similar situation before, my advice to you is that try resending the file to AVR. again. and remember to turn DEQ off before u take the mearument , just to have an idea how the response look like without DEQ.
i want to blindly trust the App. but honestly i just don't.
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post #4527 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
i second that, i'm pretty sure that the measurment was taken with DEQ. ON and that is why u see the 10 db. boost in the bass, but still Audy. actaully is not doing anything to correct the response and that is weird, something definitly is wrong! i have experienced slightly similar situation before, my advice to you is that try resending the file to AVR. again. and remember to turn DEQ off before u take the mearument , just to have an idea how the response look like without DEQ.

i want to blindly trust the App. but honestly i just don't.


Trust, but verify...with REW!

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post #4528 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
i second that, i'm pretty sure that the measurment was taken with DEQ. ON and that is why u see the 10 db. boost in the bass, but still Audy. actaully is not doing anything to correct the response and that is weird, something definitly is wrong! i have experienced slightly similar situation before, my advice to you is that try resending the file to AVR. again. and remember to turn DEQ off before u take the mearument , just to have an idea how the response look like without DEQ.
i want to blindly trust the App. but honestly i just don't.
Audyssey is definitely working on the response. the peak at 45hz has been pulled down, the area between 65-80hz was smoothed out and there were other small changes in the higher frequencies. A bit hard to see because he is using 1/12th smoothing, 1/24th (or Variable) would give a better representation. Also, scaling the graph in 5dB increments would give a clearer picture of what's going on.

The OP seemed to have a fairly good response pre-Audyssey so Audyssey didn't really have a whole lot to do.
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post #4529 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Looks like you may have had DEQ on for that sweep.
Good catch! That explains the bass boost, but I expected to see a bit more EQ correction.

Thanks for all the comments and explanations. I'll play a bit more with REW and see if I can learn this program.
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post #4530 of 4542 Old 08-16-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Trust, but verify...with REW!

Mark


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Exactly! except for me verify comes first then trust!
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