MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 156 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4651 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Nice. I wanted to tell you that I also switched back to 300hz a couple of days ago, but didn't want to send you down the rabbit hole again haha. I'll leave it alone for a couple weeks.

BTW, make sure you double check your SPL with a test tone. I noticed that Audyssey nails them perfectly when in full range, but if I limit EQ, I need to make minor tweaks (no more than +/- 1.5dB on a couple speakers).
Lol yeah my wife seems to enjoy it more when I cut at 300hz and DEQ off. The surrounds and bass is distracting for her.
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post #4652 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I understand that these "after" graphs are just targets, and I would need REW or something...but how do you guys get such flat graphs for the subwoofer? Does the app still roll off by default? Mine rolls off around 20hz but everyone with my sub (HSU VTF15-MK2) show like 18hz. There's also a small null that's always there no matter if I move my sub a few feet.

My "after" graphs also look so jaggedy when I limit them...makes me nervous, haha.
Lol yeah I know they are just estimates but I can hear the difference when the graphs shows peaks and dips and I can definitely tell when it’s flat like that final calibration is.

The app has been fixed for time now. My subs go down to 19hz. It’s taken me a lot of time to find the best spot for my subs. That null would likely be removed if you had dual subs.

I just go by ear and my speakers have a lot more detail when MultiEQ is limited.
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post #4653 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 09:20 AM
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Any news on whether D+M will update the Android MultEQ app to 1.4.3 as Apple have had that version since the 6th of August with the 40Hz crossover bug fixed, seems they've forgotten about Android users.
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post #4654 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by oniiz View Post
Any news on whether D+M will update the Android MultEQ app to 1.4.3 as Apple have had that version since the 6th of August with the 40Hz crossover bug fixed, seems they've forgotten about Android users.
My S9+ sends the correct crossovers.
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post #4655 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
Lol yeah I know they are just estimates but I can hear the difference when the graphs shows peaks and dips and I can definitely tell when it’s flat like that final calibration is.

The app has been fixed for time now. My subs go down to 19hz. It’s taken me a lot of time to find the best spot for my subs. That null would likely be removed if you had dual subs.

I just go by ear and my speakers have a lot more detail when MultiEQ is limited.
If you limit the EQ, then Audyssey won't be applying a roll-off curve....would you recommend CinemaEQ?

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post #4656 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
If you limit the EQ, then Audyssey won't be applying a roll-off curve....would you recommend CinemaEQ?
I don’t like Cinema EQ. It takes off too much IMO. I think it’s depends on your room. My room is treated with a lot of absorption so I don’t see the benefit in rolling off HF. All new movies are mastered for the home in near field so applying HF roll off on some takes away too much.

I found it useful when my theatre room was in a living room, when I was living in apartments though.
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post #4657 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 09:05 PM
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When you limit Audyssey to say 300Hz or so, does DEQ and other processing still affect higher frequencies? Just not the actual room EQ?

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post #4658 of 5092 Old 09-18-2019, 10:13 PM
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1st time using app. Any suggestions on these graphs? This is before using REW and umik for my subs. This is only db balanced on subs, still need to add more delay and play with REW tomorrow.

Green graph with mrc default. Red Graphs with MRC set to off. With MRC on, theres a dip an approx 4db dip at 2k

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post #4659 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 12:10 AM
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^^ that's a situation where you might want to experiment with leaving MRC on. Literally every one of your speakers has a significant drop in the response around 2kHz in the "before" graphs, which indicates the situation MRC was designed for (problems with sound power / directivity around the crossover to the tweeter, which typically is in the 2kHz range).

By turning MRC off, Audyssey is boosting 3-5dB in an area where your speakers may not have naturally have good response and/or dispersion. So, you should compare both options (it only takes 1-2 minutes to load up from the app) and listen carefully for harshness in the upper mid / lower treble range.

The speakers also seem to have broadly similar shapes to their overall response (leaving aside the bass range where the room dominates) -- given that similarity and the shared ~2kHz dip noted above, I would assume you're using well matched speakers from the same "family" of a given brand? If so, I would also spend some time comparing full range EQ vs limited EQ, to decide if you feel that Audyssey is tampering with the "native sound" of your speakers. Since the speakers all appear reasonable well matched in the graphs, the advantage Audyssey provides in improving timbre matching may be less relevant.

An easy test (for quick A/B to help audio memory) is to raise the crossover up a bit (say 100-120Hz) and play some good 2ch music and toggle between Reference and Bypass L/R modes. The latter will EQ the sub but not the mains, so you'll be directly comparing full range EQ vs EQ only in the deep bass (below ~100-120Hz) which is a good enough proxy since what you really care about is whether Audyssey is helping or hurting the mids/highs.
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post #4660 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 03:45 AM
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@batpig

Big thanks!

Yes I have switched from Energy Connoisseurs (you helped me there as well get my C-C3) to the new Klipsch RP's.
600m, 504c, 500sa, 402s... all in the same family.... your good! Lol

I thought you wanted to get the line as flat as possible? With mrc on, its flat. With mrc off it will have that dip at 2k. Is the dip preferable?

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Last edited by toy4x; 09-19-2019 at 03:48 AM.
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post #4661 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toy4x View Post
@batpig

Big thanks!

Yes I have switched from Energy Connoisseurs (you helped me there as well get my C-C3) to the new Klipsch RP's.
600m, 504c, 500sa, 402s... all in the same family.... your good! Lol

I thought you wanted to get the line as flat as possible? With mrc on, its flat. With mrc off it will have that dip at 2k. Is the dip preferable?

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He’s right. I have the older RP’s which are pretty much identical. Audyssey really changes their sound. I limit MultiEQ to 300hz. I love how clear and articulate they are, I don’t want to change their sound, afterall it’s why I bought them.
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post #4662 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 07:24 AM
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[quote=rosstg;58578770]He’s right. I have the older RP’s which are pretty much identical. Audyssey really changes their sound. I limit MultiEQ to 300hz. I love how clear and articulate they are, I don’t want to change their sound, afterall it’s why I bought them.[/quote @rosstg

One thing I didnt understand about limiting to 300hz.... are u doing that only on the subs? Or every speaker sliding the vertices to 300hz? So all 7.1 channels are limited to 300hz?

Edit: nm.. told u I'm new! MEQ filter frequency range must be set to 300?

- And you have mrc on or off?
- Deq on or off?
- high roll off 1 or 2?

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post #4663 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 07:45 AM
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[quote=toy4x;58579212]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
He’s right. I have the older RP’s which are pretty much identical. Audyssey really changes their sound. I limit MultiEQ to 300hz. I love how clear and articulate they are, I don’t want to change their sound, afterall it’s why I bought them.[/quote @rosstg

One thing I didnt understand about limiting to 300hz.... are u doing that only on the subs? Or every speaker sliding the vertices to 300hz? So all 7.1 channels are limited to 300hz?

Edit: nm.. told u I'm new! MEQ filter frequency range must be set to 300?

- And you have mrc on or off?
- Deq on or off?
- high roll off 1 or 2?

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I limit MultiEQ across ALL channels. Since there is no correction above 300hz it doesn’t matter which roll off you choose. This also applies to MRC. But when I used EQ full range I turned off MRC.

So to summarize.
I limit to 300hz across all channels.
I turn OFF DEQ
I make no adjustments to levels. I leave my subs as is flat at 75db. A lot of users like to boost the subs but the app seems to boost already compared to the AVR. I find the bass just perfect where Audyssey sets them. I suggest trying this and see what you like. It takes a few days to get used to DEQ off but it sounds more balanced now.

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post #4664 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toy4x View Post
@batpig


I thought you wanted to get the line as flat as possible? With mrc on, its flat. With mrc off it will have that dip at 2k. Is the dip preferable?

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I thought that turning on MRC introduces a dip circa 2k. You're saying the opposite?
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post #4665 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JimLely View Post
I thought that turning on MRC introduces a dip circa 2k. You're saying the opposite?
You are correct. Sorry for the confusion.

Mrc ON has the dip at 2k
Mrc OFF has a flat curve.

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post #4666 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JimLely View Post
I thought that turning on MRC introduces a dip circa 2k. You're saying the opposite?
I always turned off the MRC feature. It sounds too dull with it on.
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post #4667 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
^^ that's a situation where you might want to experiment with leaving MRC on. Literally every one of your speakers has a significant drop in the response around 2kHz in the "before" graphs, which indicates the situation MRC was designed for (problems with sound power / directivity around the crossover to the tweeter, which typically is in the 2kHz range).
That's a good point. I haven't seen measurements for all these speakers, but those for the RP-8000F do, in fact, show a dip at the crossover region being due to a directivity mismatch (pretty flat on-axis but a dip appearing off-axis).



That's exactly the kind of thing you don't want to correct with room correction, because it can't. When you get the in-room response flat you'll actually have a bump there in the direct sound (which is the most important).
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post #4668 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 01:31 PM
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I have the RP 440c, 250f and 240s and my dip is less than 5db at 2K. Mine looks flatter with more extension. Doesn’t really start to roll off. But I’ve heard the newer RP’s aren’t as bright or forward sounding. It also could be that my room is treated.
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post #4669 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 03:03 PM
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So I too have a dip in my speakers in that range...so am I reading things correctly that I should leave MRC on?

I like DEQ and full range Audyssey (ran the test recommended earlier about raising crossovers and toggling L/R Bypass on and off compared to the Reference curve).

I'm in the corner of a large basement which is untreated and use the HF 2 curve due to the square footage.

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post #4670 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 03:40 PM
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Used REW today.. here are my so called final adjustments. This is L/R+ subs

Theres big dips at 139, 200, and 311. Looks like there is a need for room treatments as I currently have none.

Found using REW that mrc on was actually smoother. Mrc off gave me a 3db bump at 2k. On was a better curve.


Dangit... dont know why it separated it by 10's... I had it set for 5. I'll send again....

Anyone know how to use the capture function? I keep getting 10db spacing when captured ... when it is set to 5db spacing.

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Last edited by toy4x; 09-19-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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post #4671 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 03:57 PM
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Hefty boost for the sub there, that's like ~8dB hot!

I would measure FL/FR separately before assessing the dips, if you're measuring them both together you can't tell if they are room acoustics related or just cancellation between the two speakers.

Most likely culprit for dips in that region is boundary interference (SBIR), which can be predicted by the 1/4 wavelength corresponding to the distance to the boundary. For example, if you have a nasty dip at 140Hz, the wavelength of 140Hz is about 8.1 feet. So if the front baffle of the speakers are ~2ft out from the wall behind them, it's almost certainly an SBIR issue with the back-wave traveling 2ft back, then 2ft forward so it arrives back at the direct sound having traveled 4ft, which is exactly 1/2 wavelength and will be 180deg out of phase with the direct sound at 140Hz. Placing bass absorb behind the speakers should attenuate the dip, or you move the speaker farther away from the wall so the dip eventually drops below ~100Hz and no longer is relevant because you can hide it below the crossover.
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post #4672 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnytheSkin View Post
So I too have a dip in my speakers in that range...so am I reading things correctly that I should leave MRC on?
I'm saying it's something you should consider testing, rather than just assuming that MRC off will be superior. If the speakers naturally have problems at that frequency due to dispersion issues around the crossover, letting Audyssey boost up the dip may exacerbate the problem and make the sound harsher.

The beauty of the app is that, for the first time with Audyssey, we can tweak and experiment for ourselves and figure out what works and what doesn't in our rooms with our speakers rather than accepting the "one size fits all" defaults.

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post #4673 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:37 PM
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So what is the consensus on limiting equalization with the app - 200Hz, 300Hz, 500Hz? What is considered the transition frequency below which we want to manipulate with EQ?
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post #4674 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Hefty boost for the sub there, that's like ~8dB hot!



I would measure FL/FR separately before assessing the dips, if you're measuring them both together you can't tell if they are room acoustics related or just cancellation between the two speakers.



Most likely culprit for dips in that region is boundary interference (SBIR), which can be predicted by the 1/4 wavelength corresponding to the distance to the boundary. For example, if you have a nasty dip at 140Hz, the wavelength of 140Hz is about 8.1 feet. So if the front baffle of the speakers are ~2ft out from the wall behind them, it's almost certainly an SBIR issue with the back-wave traveling 2ft back, then 2ft forward so it arrives back at the direct sound having traveled 4ft, which is exactly 1/2 wavelength and will be 180deg out of phase with the direct sound at 140Hz. Placing bass absorb behind the speakers should attenuate the dip, or you move the speaker farther away from the wall so the dip eventually drops below ~100Hz and no longer is relevant because you can hide it below the crossover.
Hi batpig,

Your reply to me was deleted and I didn't get a chance to read it...

I'm limited in how much flexibility I have with my sub in my current living room (corner between L shaped couches, plus WAF). I only have about 18" to move it around in each direction.

Am I out of luck in tackling the 30-40hz bass abyss? Sounds like it from reading your other posts above. With an SPL meter, it's down by 5dB after calibration. I don't really hear it as noticeable...sounds good still, just trying to smooth it if it's even possible.

Would flipping the phase switch on my sub or increasing distance help?

Thanks

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post #4675 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtCocain View Post
So what is the consensus on limiting equalization with the app - 200Hz, 300Hz, 500Hz? What is considered the transition frequency below which we want to manipulate with EQ?
It depends on your room dimensions you'll need to calculate it. It will likely be in the 200-300hz range. 300 is a safe number being above.

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Originally Posted by KurtCocain View Post
So what is the consensus on limiting equalization with the app - 200Hz, 300Hz, 500Hz? What is considered the transition frequency below which we want to manipulate with EQ?
Almost all rooms are under 200hz. Mine is 180hz. I limit mine at 300hz. Love the sound.

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post #4677 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Hefty boost for the sub there, that's like ~8dB hot!



I would measure FL/FR separately before assessing the dips, if you're measuring them both together you can't tell if they are room acoustics related or just cancellation between the two speakers.



Most likely culprit for dips in that region is boundary interference (SBIR), which can be predicted by the 1/4 wavelength corresponding to the distance to the boundary. For example, if you have a nasty dip at 140Hz, the wavelength of 140Hz is about 8.1 feet. So if the front baffle of the speakers are ~2ft out from the wall behind them, it's almost certainly an SBIR issue with the back-wave traveling 2ft back, then 2ft forward so it arrives back at the direct sound having traveled 4ft, which is exactly 1/2 wavelength and will be 180deg out of phase with the direct sound at 140Hz. Placing bass absorb behind the speakers should attenuate the dip, or you move the speaker farther away from the wall so the dip eventually drops below ~100Hz and no longer is relevant because you can hide it below the crossover.
+8db? I was going for +10!

Hahahah... I like the feel of the bass rumbling my couch... so yes... +8 FEELS great!

I've tried it at level matching... didnt like it

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post #4678 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
Almost all rooms are under 200hz. Mine is 180hz. I limit mine at 300hz. Love the sound.


I’ve been using bypass. Switching between 300 and reference for the others. I like 300 better.
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post #4679 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtCocain View Post
So what is the consensus on limiting equalization with the app - 200Hz, 300Hz, 500Hz? What is considered the transition frequency below which we want to manipulate with EQ?
There's no consensus, and honestly I would challenge anyone to hear a difference between 300Hz and 500Hz.

The other factor to consider is the target curve -- if you're using the MultEQ app to shape a little more downward slope in the speakers response (i.e. trying to shift the Audyssey curve more towards the Harman curve) then the EQ cutoff point is also the cutoff point for your ability to shape the target. So in that respect, EQ'ing a bit higher is better. Personally, I think 300Hz is a bit conservative, up to 500Hz is still going to be in the "transition region" with fairly dense modal variation and I doubt Audyssey is doing much harm tightening things up there.

Some measurements... the first photo is my LCR speakers with no EQ (Direct mode), and the second photo are the speakers with Audyssey up to 1,000 Hz. Subs turned off with a 110Hz crossover. This is with variable smoothing (so it's very high resolution down low gradually increasing up to 1/3 smoothing in the highs, so you can still see the low frequency jiggles but the top end isn't crazy jaggy). All three speakers are identical model Triad Silver LCR (the center is flush against the wall which is why there's that crazy bass boost below 200Hz on the purple line in the first graph).

As expected, things are buck wild with no EQ below 250-300Hz, and Audyssey makes huge improvements down there. But I think it's clear Audyssey is still cleaning up some mess at least up to 500Hz, at minimum shaping it better into the smooth downward slope I'm going for.



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post #4680 of 5092 Old 09-19-2019, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Hi batpig,

Your reply to me was deleted and I didn't get a chance to read it...

I'm limited in how much flexibility I have with my sub in my current living room (corner between L shaped couches, plus WAF). I only have about 18" to move it around in each direction.

Am I out of luck in tackling the 30-40hz bass abyss? Sounds like it from reading your other posts above. With an SPL meter, it's down by 5dB after calibration. I don't really hear it as noticeable...sounds good still, just trying to smooth it if it's even possible.

Would flipping the phase switch on my sub or increasing distance help?

Thanks
Sorry, had some wacky stuff happened trying to edit and my reply got messed up and I had to delete it.

Yes, if you have a single sub and can't move it, you are out of luck. I would definitely still move it within the bounds you have available to you for testing purposes, and even attempt turning the sub to face a different direction. If this was a dedicated theater you could also move the seating (since the likeliest culprit is that you're sitting in a nasty null zone) but I'm betting that's a non-option.

Changing phase or distance will not help with a single sub, that will only impact the crossover region as it will change the relationship with the other speakers where they overlap. Phase/distance tweaks will only be useful for the sub region if you have multiple subs.... and, honestly, if you can't move it much, a second sub is likely the only solution. The other option is to just live with it and accept not-perfect, I hear it's possible to do

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