MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dman918 View Post
Can someone explain, in simple terms, what this app gives the average user that may want to do basic tweaking etc.
Two main features: ability to shape the frequency response target curve to your personal preference AND the ability to roll off the equalization/correction at a frequency of your choosing.

The latter is helpful in separating room correction from speaker correction. Loudspeakers typically radiate sound omni-directionally like a lantern in the bass range but start to beam more like a flashlight in the treble. So with low frequencies, you're mostly listening to room interaction (reflected sound), whereas with high frequencies, you're listening more to the direct sound from the speaker.

It's usually a good idea to equalize unwanted room interactions, like large peaks & dips in the bass range. But once you transition to higher frequencies where there is much less interaction with the room and you're mostly listening to the speaker, equalization can be hit or miss. If your speakers are well behaved above the transition range and you like how they sound, then there might not be any good reason to equalize their response in the higher frequencies.

So it is helpful that the new app allows you to experiment with where in the frequency range you want the equalization to stop (not a hard stop, but a roll off). This way, you still get to do room correction (fix big peaks & dips) without being forced to do speaker correction (especially if you really like the sound of your speakers). Before the app, it was all or nothing. With the app, you're in control.
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post #32 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 12:30 PM
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What is particular to those existing models (see post #4 for list) that can allow for the use of this new app to the exclusion of other models?

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post #33 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 12:47 PM
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Thank you for such a great comprehensive answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Two main features: ability to shape the frequency response target curve to your personal preference AND the ability to roll off the equalization/correction at a frequency of your choosing.

The latter is helpful in separating room correction from speaker correction. Loudspeakers typically radiate sound omni-directionally like a lantern in the bass range but start to beam more like a flashlight in the treble. So with low frequencies, you're mostly listening to room interaction (reflected sound), whereas with high frequencies, you're listening more to the direct sound from the speaker.

It's usually a good idea to equalize unwanted room interactions, like large peaks & dips in the bass range. But once you transition to higher frequencies where there is much less interaction with the room and you're mostly listening to the speaker, equalization can be hit or miss. If your speakers are well behaved above the transition range and you like how they sound, then there might not be any good reason to equalize their response in the higher frequencies.

So it is helpful that the new app allows you to experiment with where in the frequency range you want the equalization to stop (not a hard stop, but a roll off). This way, you still get to do room correction (fix big peaks & dips) without being forced to do speaker correction (especially if you really like the sound of your speakers). Before the app, it was all or nothing. With the app, you're in control.
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post #34 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
What is particular to those existing models (see post #4 for list) that can allow for the use of this new app to the exclusion of other models?
They are 2016 model year receivers/pre-pros that were marketed to be receiving this app around the time they were announced last year. The option for tweaking curves for previous models had been Audyssey pro (which is not available for 2016 models).
I had no receiver in my theater for a couple months (4311 failed) because I pre-ordered a x4300h vs going for a similar priced x7200w that was available immediately for this app alone.
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post #35 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Yes, that's the whole point of room correction. If you were to have a floating room full of non parallel surfaces, diffusers, and traps, you wouldn't need room correction tools. Most of us don't have that, therefore we do.
It does not matter if you have room treatments or not. Unless you are in an anechoic chamber, there will be reflections. Those reflections will alter the frequency response in drastically different ways at mic positions even a few inches apart. To average frequency sweeps at several locations all together and then adjust the frequency response of the speaker to make the average response even results in worse sound. The direct sound, which is heard first, is now no longer flat. Each location will have some frequencies better and others worse. Since we don't hear from one point in space, we'll hear the unevenness of the speakers in the reflections as well.


EQ can do a lot. Crossovers are essentially EQ. It can make most drivers relatively flat in frequency response. It can also tame modal peaks that are consistent in large areas of a room (such as along a couch). It cannot change the nature of reflections and the way they drastically change frequency response over short distances and in unpredictable ways.


Edit: For more info, see sdurani's post above
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post #36 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post
So sad that my flagship marantz 8802a cant use this. Strange that Marantz s current flagship piece of equipment cant somehow be updated to accept this.
I am sure it can be upgraded, but it wont be. The 8802 is fairly long into it's life-cycle already going from 8802 to 8802a. I would assume they are going to release it's replacement this year. They are not going to incentivize people to hold onto a legacy product. They want and need new cash flow and this is a perk many will buy new hardware for. They care more about the new and future customers than old customers. Its just the nature of the capitalism beast.
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post #37 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 02:02 PM
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Won't changing the curve damage the sub? For example its calibrated and the max extension is 20 Hz yet you manually extend it to 10 Hz with the app and the sub specs is really nothing below 20 HZ. What happens then?
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post #38 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 02:39 PM
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Samsung Note 4 and Audyssey app

Doesn't work with Note 4 if anyone has this phone. I may have to revive my old iPone 4 phone, but I will wait until all (or the most egregious bugs) have been zapped and hope that they see fit to make the app compatible with my Note.

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post #39 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Wonder how easy to use the app will be for a newbie like me who don't understand much of frequency's etc. Still, my next AVR is def. either a Denon or a Marantz b/c of this awesome feature.
The fun thing about it, you can always read, tweak. as questions and learn, just requires some time and patience and maybe a little bit of swearing at times and joy when it goes right.
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post #40 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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In light of this, and also because I want 11-channel processing, I have decided to retire my Pioneer SC-85, or at least demote it. A Denon X4300h is taking its place, should be here Saturday, for sure the first thing I will do is use the new app and write up what that's like.

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post #41 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:22 PM
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Well then it's a good thing Audyssey isn't really in direct competition with Dirac or to put it in an analogous form , "Audyssey doesn't have to outrun the bear (Dirac) they just have to outrun you!"( YPAO, MCACC,DCACC, AccuEQ)
The bear is on a different island than Audyssey's direct competitors, unless you're on AVS. Then you know. But as the kid's video on YouTube has it, when it comes to Audyssey, they're not on a bear hunt. LOL.

The typical buyer of a D&M processor at Best Buy/Magnolia or maybe selected by a CI for them on a higher end (the kind of folks I saw at the last CEDIA in the Denon room planning the room for them) will think this is a leap forward. The hobbyists buying XMC-1s, thinking about input voltages for the MiniDSP 88A and editing their target curves by manually tweaking high/low shelf parameters, or spending toward the high four figures or low five figures on a Datasat or Storm Audio processor will yawn.

Speaking as a former Audyssey Pro user, though, it's about time.
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post #42 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:38 PM
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Is anyone getting strange crossover values using the Audyssey app vs Audyssey Via the receiver? I have a x6300 with Behringer 215xl for fronts/center. After running i keep getting a crossover of 150hz for my fronts and 60hz for the center using the app. I get either 60-80hz for fronts/center when running it normal Audyssey. This is running it back to back with no changes in placement. I have run the app multiple times and get the same crossover. I also get different cross-overs using the app for the other speakers but not as dramatically different as the fronts. i have a 7.2.4 setup.
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post #43 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:42 PM
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I don't care about Dirac, or the other ridiculously expensive gear, if it'll allow us to tweak better than what Audyssey decided on, it'll be worth $20.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #44 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:45 PM
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Nothing on the SR-7009, looks like I'm outta luck.
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post #45 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am sure it can be upgraded, but it wont be. The 8802 is fairly long into it's life-cycle already going from 8802 to 8802a. I would assume they are going to release it's replacement this year. They are not going to incentivize people to hold onto a legacy product. They want and need new cash flow and this is a perk many will buy new hardware for. They care more about the new and future customers than old customers. Its just the nature of the capitalism beast.
The 8804 which is the replacement for the 8802a is supposed to be coming out in Jan 2018, time will tell. i agree with what you re saying but I think Marantz should stop calling it the flagship and listing it for a $3999 MSRP even though know one pays that LOL. I think it is a joke they call it a flagship and do not offer any updates but are updating the 7703 which is half the price.
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post #46 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post
I don't care about Dirac, or the other ridiculously expensive gear, if it'll allow us to tweak better than what Audyssey decided on, it'll be worth $20.

No soup for you! But seriously..,the $20 is a great value compared to the $650 or so some of us paid for Audyssey Pro and the license tethered to a single AVR a few years back. I would be curious if the mobile Target Curve Editor is still limited to 1/3 octave resolution and +/- 3 db adjustments, however.
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post #47 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:02 PM
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I'm debating on using this right now, I loathe the process, and hearing about wacky XO's is off-putting...this 4300 was pretty spot on when I did the last cal, I was actually shocked...I'm down here debating... lmao

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post #48 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post
I'm debating on using this right now, I loathe the process, and hearing about wacky XO's is off-putting...this 4300 was pretty spot on when I did the last cal, I was actually shocked...I'm down here debating... lmao
That sounds strange, but I'll note than with "full range" mains, a lot of us never trusted the generated Audyssey crossover since it was always set to be 40 Hz (too low). If you can adjust the crossover in the app to something you're familiar with, preferably with the help of REW or OmniMic individual speaker/sub plots, you might be able to better fine-tune what the app is giving you.

Of course, that assumes you can manually adjust the Audyssey crossovers based on the app. If it works like Pro did, you'll get a few options for the crossover as a drop-down.

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post #49 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That sounds strange, but I'll note than with "full range" mains, a lot of us never trusted the generated Audyssey crossover since it was always set to be 40 Hz (too low). If you can adjust the crossover in the app to something you're familiar with, preferably with the help of REW or OmniMic individual speaker/sub plots, you might be able to better fine-tune what the app is giving you.

Of course, that assumes you can manually adjust the Audyssey crossovers based on the app. If it works like Pro did, you'll get a few options for the crossover as a drop-down.
No crossover settings yet

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post #50 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That sounds strange, but I'll note than with "full range" mains, a lot of us never trusted the generated Audyssey crossover since it was always set to be 40 Hz (too low). If you can adjust the crossover in the app to something you're familiar with, preferably with the help of REW or OmniMic individual speaker/sub plots, you might be able to better fine-tune what the app is giving you.

Of course, that assumes you can manually adjust the Audyssey crossovers based on the app. If it works like Pro did, you'll get a few options for the crossover as a drop-down.
Just as is the case using the on board Audyssey EQ, crossover settings can be changed in Manual Setup.
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post #51 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:39 PM
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I have a Denon x3300 which is compatible with this app. I have a current audyssey calibration that I'm very happy with. In order to use this app, do I have to rerun audyssey? Or can it tap into the one I'm currently using?
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post #52 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ma1746 View Post
I have a Denon x3300 which is compatible with this app. I have a current audyssey calibration that I'm very happy with. In order to use this app, do I have to rerun audyssey? Or can it tap into the one I'm currently using?
Rerun

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post #53 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 04:51 PM
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Just as is the case using the on board Audyssey EQ, crossover settings can be changed in Manual Setup.
Yeah, but I thought it was bad to LOWER XO's because the filters are not set there, so wouldn't that cause you to do alot more work and change timings and the like?

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post #54 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:00 PM
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Yeah, but I thought it was bad to LOWER XO's because the filters are not set there, so wouldn't that cause you to do alot more work and change timings and the like?

It is, but raising XOs over the recommended settings by Audyssey isn't necessarily a bad thing. The filters are still there, but the higher speaker crossover just means that the slope you're having the AVR apply below the crossover is higher up the FR range. Like the example I gave, where Audyssey set the L/R speakers to 40 Hz and you do a crossover of 80 Hz.

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post #55 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
It is, but raising XOs over the recommended settings by Audyssey isn't necessarily a bad thing. The filters are still there, but the higher speaker crossover just means that the slope you're having the AVR apply below the crossover is higher up the FR range. Like the example I gave, where Audyssey set the L/R speakers to 40 Hz and you do a crossover of 80 Hz.
I get that, but 1 guy mentioned it set his mains alot HIGHER than normal Calibration didn't he? Like 120 or 150?

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post #56 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thiruvil View Post
Is anyone getting strange crossover values using the Audyssey app vs Audyssey Via the receiver? I have a x6300 with Behringer 215xl for fronts/center. After running i keep getting a crossover of 150hz for my fronts and 60hz for the center using the app. I get either 60-80hz for fronts/center when running it normal Audyssey. This is running it back to back with no changes in placement. I have run the app multiple times and get the same crossover. I also get different cross-overs using the app for the other speakers but not as dramatically different as the fronts. i have a 7.2.4 setup.
This Post is what I'm referring to.

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post #57 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:18 PM
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Temptation strikes! Thinking of upgrading my 8 year old Marantz sr5003 in
My bedroom (5.2) for a new sr5011 and the app. The 5003 is still kicking
Butt, never a single hiccup and the set up sounds pretty good as is.

But....after doing room correction on my Anthem using ARC and a computer
I enjoyed being able to tweak and adjust to get the sound just about perfect.

I am going to keep an eye out for user experiences with the new app.

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post #58 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:26 PM
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Btw, are the graphs red/green on a black background like I've seen? I can't read white background stuff for squat right now.
Reading REW graphs posted are pretty much a no go right now.
Thx

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post #59 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
In light of this, and also because I want 11-channel processing, I have decided to retire my Pioneer SC-85, or at least demote it. A Denon X4300h is taking its place, should be here Saturday, for sure the first thing I will do is use the new app and write up what that's like.
Since you have a DDRC-88A any chance of an in-depth Audyssey vs Dirac comparison? I'm in a boat I'm guessing many of us here are in, wondering if it's worth the cost of going with separates to integrate a Dirac processor vs going the simple route with something like the X4300h.
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post #60 of 4565 Old 04-05-2017, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Since you have a DDRC-88A any chance of an in-depth Audyssey vs Dirac comparison? I'm in a boat I'm guessing many of us here are in, wondering if it's worth the cost of going with separates to integrate a Dirac processor vs going the simple route with something like the X4300h.
Yes, looking forward to doing that.

Mark Henninger
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