MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 209 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6241 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich 63 View Post
Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the sub distances are not actual distances because the the time delay is diffent then the other speakers With 2 subs that time delay can be magnified. No? .
You're correct that delay is measured not distance.

The bug and how to address it is mentioned in the FAQ.
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post #6242 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I use the 2 sub outs (Marantz), one for each sub, and it works great for me. I am not familiar with the "closest sub" bug with the app since it appears to work as normal.

For troubleshooting purposes, did you try swapping the connections so what used to be Sub 1 is now Sub 2 (and vice versa)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Looks like your already aware of the "closest sub" bug, other than that it works fine for my duals. Does sound like something is going wrong with the distance measurement unless they are 25.7 feet away? Did you get the sub levels set correctly so it falls in the softwares range of measurement?
Whats happening is when the subs are pinged individually they set the distance and levels at the MLP correctly. Then the two subs are mono'd and eq'd for a flat response at the MLP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Yes and it works fine

Thank you.

I will try swapping them back.

I think it may have to do with placement (ie. in a null zone). I'm going to do the "sub crawl" and try a better location.

--Mark--
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post #6243 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
The closest sub was certainly a real bug. I had it. The closest sub had to be on sub1. Im fairly certain it was corrected in an update but could not say for certain. Doesnt hurt to just have closest sub connected to sub1 anyway. Another way to check is the distances in app or avr based cal should be the same.
I only recently went back to using the 2 sub outs and damn I completely forgot about the bug
the results on calibration were
Sub 1 at the front right corner = 7.38 meters
Sub 2 ( the nearest sub) at the Rear left corner = 6.67 meters

so to be absolutely sure it looks like its going to have to be a swap of connection and yet another Audyssey calibration
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post #6244 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 05:51 AM
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Are they matching subs?
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post #6245 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I only recently went back to using the 2 sub outs and damn I completely forgot about the bug
the results on calibration were
Sub 1 at the front right corner = 7.38 meters
Sub 2 ( the nearest sub) at the Rear left corner = 6.67 meters

so to be absolutely sure it looks like its going to have to be a swap of connection and yet another Audyssey calibration
Im not sure that bug is still there or was corrected in a release. Easiest way to check id use the AVR built in cal and compare. Just do minimum 3 mic position. Distances should be the same with app and AVR.
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post #6246 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 07:36 AM
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@rec head yes identical subs

@sjm817 actually that is a great suggestion I really need to know if the bug still exists so I will do that
I am using V 1.4.8 which is the latest app version
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Last edited by Lesmor; 05-20-2020 at 07:41 AM.
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post #6247 of 6277 Old 05-20-2020, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyM View Post
Hi,
When the app goes through the sub check near the beginning of the process, the audio for the second sub starts late, just near the end of that part of the process so it may not see enough there, causing the following issues.

The same happens to me (sound for the second sub seems to start late and only play for a second or so). Marantz 6014, running the iOS version.
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post #6248 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyM View Post
Thank you.

I will try swapping them back.

I think it may have to do with placement (ie. in a null zone). I'm going to do the "sub crawl" and try a better location.

--Mark--
I moved the 2nd sub to a better location and swapped them back so that the original sub (and furthest physical distance from the MLP) is on Sub1 and the new sub is on Sub2.

The app worked normally this time, except for that delay when finding Sub2 where only plays for a second or so at the tail-end.

The distance was correctly set for Sub1 (12.5 ft., the same as previously when it was alone) but the distance for Sub2 was set to 25.8 ft. even though it is physically closer. This may have to do with the fact that I am running it via a wireless adapter. So it thinks that the new sub is further away than it is physically, and further than the original sub.

So if that is correct, it seems that the bug is still there. Neither distance was correct when the new sub was on Sub1.

--Mark--

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Last edited by MarkyM; 05-21-2020 at 09:26 AM.
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post #6249 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 02:48 PM
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If you are using a wireless connection that would explain why the measured delay for that sub is much larger than the wired sub.
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post #6250 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 03:30 PM
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I see the majority of the posts are from people who are running Audyssey XT32; Don't recall seeing any for lesser versions of Audyssey. I have an NR1607 which apparently can still access the app even though it only runs the more basic Audyssey MultiEQ. Does anyone use the app with the lesser versions of Audyssey and would it potentially be worth it or are the majority of the extra functions only relevant for the better versions of Audyssey?
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post #6251 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyM View Post
I moved the 2nd sub to a better location and swapped them back so that the original sub (and furthest physical distance from the MLP) is on Sub1 and the new sub is on Sub2.

The app worked normally this time, except for that delay when finding Sub2 where only plays for a second or so at the tail-end.

The distance was correctly set for Sub1 (12.5 ft., the same as previously when it was alone) but the distance for Sub2 was set to 25.8 ft. even though it is physically closer. This may have to do with the fact that I am running it via a wireless adapter. So it thinks that the new sub is further away than it is physically, and further than the original sub.

So if that is correct, it seems that the bug is still there. Neither distance was correct when the new sub was on Sub1.

--Mark--
All bets are off when using a wireless connection. Change to wired if at all possible.
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post #6252 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyM View Post
I moved the 2nd sub to a better location and swapped them back so that the original sub (and furthest physical distance from the MLP) is on Sub1 and the new sub is on Sub2.

The app worked normally this time, except for that delay when finding Sub2 where only plays for a second or so at the tail-end.

The distance was correctly set for Sub1 (12.5 ft., the same as previously when it was alone) but the distance for Sub2 was set to 25.8 ft. even though it is physically closer. This may have to do with the fact that I am running it via a wireless adapter. So it thinks that the new sub is further away than it is physically, and further than the original sub.

So if that is correct, it seems that the bug is still there. Neither distance was correct when the new sub was on Sub1.

--Mark--
Android?

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post #6253 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khcoach View Post
I see the majority of the posts are from people who are running Audyssey XT32; Don't recall seeing any for lesser versions of Audyssey. I have an NR1607 which apparently can still access the app even though it only runs the more basic Audyssey MultiEQ. Does anyone use the app with the lesser versions of Audyssey and would it potentially be worth it or are the majority of the extra functions only relevant for the better versions of Audyssey?
My AVR, Marantz SR5014, uses XT and works great with the Audyssey app...well worth the cost

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post #6254 of 6277 Old 05-21-2020, 08:29 PM
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If I boost the curve on the sub + 6 would that be equal to what dynamic eq puts out or should I increase it + 10? Plus should I boost all the speakers or jusr the left and right fronts?
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post #6255 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
If I boost the curve on the sub + 6 would that be equal to what dynamic eq puts out or should I increase it + 10? Plus should I boost all the speakers or jusr the left and right fronts?
Try both using the AVR's remote and keep the setting you like the best.

Audyssey sets the levels based on the information it receives when performing its' tests. It uses a 75db test signal.

After Audyssey's room correction many, including me, use a SPL to set the levels to a specific SPL level. I set the volume to my desired volume for measurement purposes, I use standard numbers as my wife doesn't like the "db" level" so I set my volume to 75 and using the SPL I set my levels to 70db and tweak from there.
I use the Marantz "virtualizer" and the surrounds are hotter, louder, than I prefer so I set them at 65db. I also set the sub to 75db and further tweak if I think it is necessary.
Generally once set you are done but you may want to tweak a setting for a specific show, movie, etc. Seems all the providers...cable, disks, etc...have different signal levels, some are louder than others, and you may want to make an adjustment...I may do this for a movie and generally it only relates to the center channel and sub.

The beauty of the app and the avr's system settings is the ease of use and the more you use the easier it gets.

If you are going to do this I suggest you first create a copy of the original Audyssey settings and make adjustments to the copy so you always have the primary to fall back on or to do "A", "B" comparisons.

Good luck and have fun...

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post #6256 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkushner View Post
Android?
Nope. IOS.

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post #6257 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm817 View Post
All bets are off when using a wireless connection. Change to wired if at all possible.
Understood and thanks.

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post #6258 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkyM View Post
Nope. IOS.
Interesting. Both of my relatively new iOS devices have worked flawlessly with the Audyssey app on my Denon X-3500-H running on wi-fi.

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post #6259 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I only recently went back to using the 2 sub outs and damn I completely forgot about the bug
the results on calibration were
Sub 1 at the front right corner = 7.38 meters
Sub 2 ( the nearest sub) at the Rear left corner = 6.67 meters

so to be absolutely sure it looks like its going to have run another Audyssey calibration
Just thought I would bump this back up again
to recap the above distances were with the App
as suggested I ran a AVR internal 3 position calibration and the results were
Sub 1 at the front right corner = 7.44 meters
Sub 2 ( the nearest sub) at the Rear left corner = 5.61 meters
I ran yet another calibration using the App the results were
Sub 1 at the front right corner = 7.47 meters
Sub 2 ( the nearest sub) at the Rear left corner = 6.64 meters
there is clearly still a difference between using the App and the AVR internal calibration
using REW I found that using the APP results the Subs were not time aligned, but once I input the AVR Sub 2 distance both subs were aligned
Audibly there was also a huge difference

Last edited by Lesmor; 05-22-2020 at 10:51 AM.
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post #6260 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 04:17 PM
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I just ran a Audyssey run through my AVR and the sub distance matched the app perfectly. Android phone.

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post #6261 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I found that using the APP results the Subs were not time aligned, but once I input the AVR Sub 2 distance both subs were aligned
Audibly there was also a huge difference
Seriously, a huge difference from a tiny change in timing?

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post #6262 of 6277 Old 05-22-2020, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Seriously, a huge difference from a tiny change in timing?
I've run Audyssey so many times with the AVR and the App, and I can confidently say they consistently come out with the same results repeatedly (give or take 0.5 dB and 0.1' distance).

The absolute only difference I see without fail is when I run the AVR my surrounds are set to 80hz but with the app it's always 90hz.
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post #6263 of 6277 Old 05-23-2020, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Winters View Post
Try both using the AVR's remote and keep the setting you like the best.

Audyssey sets the levels based on the information it receives when performing its' tests. It uses a 75db test signal.

After Audyssey's room correction many, including me, use a SPL to set the levels to a specific SPL level. I set the volume to my desired volume for measurement purposes, I use standard numbers as my wife doesn't like the "db" level" so I set my volume to 75 and using the SPL I set my levels to 70db and tweak from there.
I use the Marantz "virtualizer" and the surrounds are hotter, louder, than I prefer so I set them at 65db. I also set the sub to 75db and further tweak if I think it is necessary.
Generally once set you are done but you may want to tweak a setting for a specific show, movie, etc. Seems all the providers...cable, disks, etc...have different signal levels, some are louder than others, and you may want to make an adjustment...I may do this for a movie and generally it only relates to the center channel and sub.

The beauty of the app and the avr's system settings is the ease of use and the more you use the easier it gets.

If you are going to do this I suggest you first create a copy of the original Audyssey settings and make adjustments to the copy so you always have the primary to fall back on or to do "A", "B" comparisons.

Good luck and have fun...
For anyone using an SPL meter to check levels remember that the internal test tones in the AVR bypass Audyssey. To measure levels that include the Audyssey calibration you must use an external source like a test disc.
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post #6264 of 6277 Old 05-23-2020, 03:03 PM
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This may have be answered previously, though I did search. Is there a way to edit the eq store on my avr in the app if you haven't calibrated using the app? It seems really stupid to me that I cannot seem edit anything in the the calibration stored in my avr, which I can see in the app. Am I making any sense?

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post #6265 of 6277 Old 05-23-2020, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post
This may have be answered previously, though I did search. Is there a way to edit the eq store on my avr in the app if you haven't calibrated using the app? It seems really stupid to me that I cannot seem edit anything in the the calibration stored in my avr, which I can see in the app. Am I making any sense?
Unfortunately not, you can't upload a calibration from the AVR to the App although this is being looked into on the Ratbuddy thread, So you have to use the App for Calibration if you want to avail of the features that you get with the App. i think this answers your question. You are better off with the App anyway, it opens many doors to Audyssey that can't be done by the AVR
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post #6266 of 6277 Old 05-23-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy2Shoes View Post
Unfortunately not, you can't upload a calibration from the AVR to the App although this is being looked into on the Ratbuddy thread, So you have to use the App for Calibration if you want to avail of the features that you get with the App. i think this answers your question. You are better off with the App anyway, it opens many doors to Audyssey that can't be done by the AVR
That is annoying. I know the app gives me more features, I just want to adjust the low freq curve at the moment and I sure hate running 8 points of calibration haha
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post #6267 of 6277 Old 05-24-2020, 02:58 AM
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To all those who apparently are questioning my findings and are
reporting no difference to distance using the AVR or App you have not made it clear if you are using single or dual sub woofers
please have the courtesy of supplying the same data as I did

As a third test and for personal confirmation I swapped outputs making Sub 1 the nearest and distances and timing are now correct so in my opinion there is still a bug
@Sal1950 IMO yes there is YMMV
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Last edited by Lesmor; 05-24-2020 at 03:01 AM.
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post #6268 of 6277 Old 05-24-2020, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
To all those who apparently are questioning my findings and are
reporting no difference to distance using the AVR or App you have not made it clear if you are using single or dual sub woofers
please have the courtesy of supplying the same data as I did

As a third test and for personal confirmation I swapped outputs making Sub 1 the nearest and distances and timing are now correct so in my opinion there is still a bug
@Sal1950 IMO yes there is YMMV
Yes, dual subs. I recently when through the process of running multiple runs as I was experimenting with sub placement and moving them around. Near, far, opposites etc. The distances of each always appeared right (slightly greater than actual physical distance).

I'd like confirmation that there aren't any more bugs too, but haven't seen anything to suggest so.
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post #6269 of 6277 Old 05-24-2020, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
Yes, dual subs. I recently when through the process of running multiple runs as I was experimenting with sub placement and moving them around. Near, far, opposites etc. The distances of each always appeared right (slightly greater than actual physical distance).

I'd like confirmation that there aren't any more bugs too, but haven't seen anything to suggest so.
@pbz06
thanks for the confirmation
does anyone have a copy of the change log where it states the original bug was fixed?
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post #6270 of 6277 Old 05-24-2020, 11:09 AM
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I’ve read through this thread (and the official Audyssey thread) probably twice each, and both are a fund of knowledge. I have a question, and I don’t remember seeing the answer.

Is it possible to damage a subwoofer (my subwoofer for sake of the question) by altering the eq very aggressively in the curve editor, IF I keep the overall sub-trim at or below 0?

Say I add (+)12db in some frequencies, and cut (-)12db in other frequencies (done via app or Ratboy app as it should not matter?) in an attempt for a big low-ended house curve with a budget sub (Bic PL200). But, I run my subs gain knob such that Audyssey calibrates it to a -11.0db level, so in the end, I only raise the sub trim by 10 to -1. Is there anything I can do that would cause MORE harm to my sub than what Audyssey filters do without using the curve editor, assuming I keep overall trim in the negative.

Hope the question is clear. Thanks for all the useful info in this thread.
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