Originally Posted by MagnumX
Did this receiver have volume in decibels or something else?
Meaningless. You'd have to measure the full maximum volume with a sound pressure meter on both receivers to see if the output is "nowhere close." A decibel based volume control is not based on "half output at half the increments" as you seem to imply. Every 3dB moved upward is a doubling of power output. Therefore you won't even come CLOSE to the rated output until you're almost to 0dB (some go beyond 0 to allow for low input signals, but distortion begins to increase). To give you an idea, most of my movies on my Yamaha receiver are played back between 0dB (newer "low volume" Marvel) and -15dB (older movies) with most of them around -10dB to -6dB. Where they end up on the scale, though is ALSO a function of how efficient your speakers are, how big your room is and how far you sit away in the room AND also the auto-setup program (i.e. the individual speaker volume adjustments are not changed by the primary scale so if you go adjusting them all, you might end up at a different overall setting by a few dB depending.
Let's put this into perspective for you. Let's just say your overall sound output with pink noise at 0dB in the room turns out to be 110dB (pretty darn loud). It might be 105 or even 100 depending on the speakers, room, etc. But just suppose it's 110dB in the room (at this output, you'd start getting hearing damage in less than a half hour if it was constant). An average room's ambient noise level is typically anywhere from 35dB on the extremely quiet side (most consumer sound meters only read to ~50dB on the bottom end; you'd need something a little better to even find out what your room is at), but at a more typical 55dB, your speakers are fighting room noise to be heard. You can hear maybe 15-20dB into a typical noise floor on average (some frequencies are more sensitive than others and I've heard of supposedly proven claims into the -40dB range, but this is barely audible and some pretty good hearing). Let's say you can reliably hear a signal 15dB into the noise floor. That would mean you wouldn't be able to hear a sound until it's at LEAST 40dB loud in the room. So on the volume dial for that 110dB figure, that would mean it would become audible right around -70dB. If your maximum volume output is 105dB instead of 110dB pink noise (my own receiver maxed out at the 0dB setting at 105dB with my 5 speaker setup without the sub being on) and your room is 60dB average noise level instead of 55dB you would hear it at -60dB on the dial. If you can only hear 10dB reliably into the noise floor, it would be -55dB, etc. Thus, your -61.5dB figure sounds completely believable to me (I honestly don't think I've ever tried to see where I could hear to and it would probably matter whether it was pink noise or something else an certainly whether it's just one channel or ALL the channels).
If I had to "guess" at your maximum output volume, I'd say it's around 105dB and that's completely normal for a relatively low-powered receiver (if you need more power of any substance you need power amps in the 200-600 watt range as each doubling of power only gives you an extra 3dB. Thus a 100 watt output is 3dB higher than a 50 watt output which is 3dB higher than 25 watt output, etc. etc. and so a 200-watt per channel amp will only play 6dB louder on average than a 50 watt amplifier. This is also why speaker efficiency is important as they are ranted in dB per 1 watt input measured at 1 meter from the speaker. A 90dB (fairly efficient, but not as much as horns or as bad as some more esoteric and/or smaller speakers) rated speaker would need close to 50 watts to achieve 110dB at a mere 1 meter from the speaker (the speaker might be 6dB lower 15 feet away and thus you'd need 150 watts. Most receivers when driving a full complement of 5-7 or even 9-11 speakers these days put out maybe 50-60 watts per channel maximum. Most bookshelf speaker are in the 86-88dB rated range (for a sub/sat system) and so they'd top out closer to 105dB at one meter and thus maybe 102dB from two speakers 10-15 feet away (if all speakers are playing the same thing, they typically add 3dB to the total room level per speaker, but this can vary based on position in the room, etc.). I think my PSB B15s are rated around 89dB and I sit 9 feet away and I hit 105dB for two speakers in practice at 0dB.
Now the other thing is manufacturers more or less LIE in their specs about their receiver's capabilities. Newer receivers with MORE channels are more than likely to have less power per channel when all are active than an older receiver with fewer channels. But the manual will tell you the maximum power rated for that channel playing alone instead. For example, the 13-channel Denon AVRX8500H is rated at 150 watts per channel into 8 ohms! Wow! Yet the power supply is only rated to 900 watts maximum and these things aren't exactly 100% efficient either. 13 x 150 = 1950 watts! It's MAGIC! If the receiver were 100% efficient and didn't ANY power for video switching, menus, decoding, etc., it'd still top out at a maximum of 69 watts per channel if they were all playing at once at full volume. In reality, it's probably closer to 30-40 watts. Mind you that's the 8 ohm rating. It gets even dicier at 4 ohms, etc., but that's another story and this is just to give you a basic idea of the marketing BS involved.
My older Yamaha is rated for 115 watts per channel and it has 7 channels available. It has a maximum power consumption of 400 watts. It's not going to get 115 watts running full tilt (probably more like 25 watts). But you wouldn't guess that looking at the manual without noticing the power supply rating.
Volume is pretty much logarithmic based due to how we hear (3dB doesn't sound "that much" louder, but it's ACTUALLY twice the output in room pressure and thus requires twice as much power to achieve. Humans generally hear every 10dB as a doubling of "perceived" volume output and thus you need around 10x the power to get something to "sound" twice as loud.
I hope this clear things up a bit.
First, thank you all for the answers, greatly appreciated.
Mickey Mouse - Understood and clear. My old 5.1 pro-logic receiver is simply like you noted. Turn the volume knob/potentiometer and it starts getting loud quickly and very loud after the 1/2 volume knob position. Hence the references and comparisons between the two receivers at 1/2 volume or 1/2 the movement of the volume knob. The old analog receiver is louder to the ear
at 1/2 volume knob position than the new Yamaha at 1/2 volume knob. By no means does the old receiver sound better/clearer at any loud, to the ear, volume. That is why I ended with "issue" in quotes, as I'm really asking or investigating if playing the new RX-A2070 receivers at ~3/4 volume knob position is abnormal as compared to other users on this thread playing the same receiver models.
It was concerning as I would have never constantly played my old receiver at 3/4 volume knob position.... 1st because it would be to loud, but 2nd I would have "feared" damaging the internal amps. It lasted 22+ years, and is still fully operational to this day so obviously I didn't "overdrive" it too much.
the one and only question is: do you hear any distortions before the you reach the desired sound pressure level?
Simple answer without the current access to measuring equipment.....It sounds very clear, to the ear, and I'm overall happy with it. Although I'm still working with the dialog controls, as they do appear quiet in comparison to the rest of the sound until I reach the "movie levels" of -17db to -7db volume control range.
Magnum X - thanks for the time you put into the reply - Did this receiver have volume in decibels or something else?
My old receiver's only volume indication was the notch in the volume knob, hence the comparisons of 1/2 volume (meaning knob or indicator) The old unit had no display of any type related to volume. If I recall correctly, volume could be displayed on the TV, but on it's own TV input, so I never used it as I was watching what I was listening too....movie, tv, gaming, etc...
Meaningless: "volume output is nowhere close"
Fair enough, I fully agree it would need to be measured to be proven. I understand now about 1/2 volume knob not being 1/2 volume on this unit. Your comment and Mickey Mouse's message help alleviate my concern about playing the Yamaha receiver at "high" volume knob positions
levels. I did watch the Yamaha video about 0db and -xx.xdB volume display. Definitely not what I was use to, hence the concern about knob position not outputting what I was expecting.
I greatly appreciate you stating the dB ranges you use for your movie watching. My -dB ranges for movie watching are not too far off from your listings, so that helps reduce/eliminate my concerns of any "issues" with this receiver. My limiting factor isn't the receiver, but NEIGHBORS... (trying to keep it friendly). The volume is plenty loud (and still clear) at the level we are using, so I won't often be above the 0db level. Understood on the rest of your comments on adjusting individual speakers. I don't adjust the individual speakers, but the "dialog controls" through the APP. Tone control, Subwoofer Trim, Dialogue level, DTS Dialogue Control, Dialog Lift Again, subjective, but until it sounds good to the ear.
The rest of your information sure sparks the interest in continuing to learn more about all of this. Sounds like you dug deep on learning this information.
M7C - Thank you for your input. Interesting on your -40dB listening level, too quiet for this house/speakers/output. -30 is reasonable for this unit if not watching movies. I definitely see/hear differences in the volume control when using the cable box Vs the Xbox Vs the ARC TV "input". But each of those switch the DSP settings also. The "loudest" sound to the ear with the lowest -db reading on the receiver came when I played a You Tube 4k video on the TV through the ARC input. I found that interesting. For now I'm going to chalk this up to learning a new receiver, as it is very obvious my old receiver was just that....OLD. I will be upgrading my center and rear surround speakers soon. Come fall/winter I'll start into the multi room setup, at which time speaker wires will be upgraded. My HDMI are fairly new, listed as High Speed and 4k rated for what that's worth when reading about HDMI cables. The interesting HDMI cable will be to the 2nd room(s). More to learn.
Getting long winded now, so again thanks, and I'll try to keep it more focused moving forward. Now I'm very interested in getting some measurements.