*Official* Marantz 2017 NR1508/1608, SR5012/6012/7012 owner's thread - Page 108 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3211 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Post 5 reserved for Marantz SR6012 full height receiver.

Hi Steve. Wondering if the SR6013 justifies its own thread. Thanks.
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post #3212 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Steven Newburgh View Post
Hi Steve. Wondering if the SR6013 justifies its own thread. Thanks.
Steve is no longer active on the forum, although the answer would be no.

Also, the SR6013 is supported in the 2018 Marantz Owner's thread linked below.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...sts-1-7-a.html
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Although both are 9CH models that can expand to 11CH, the SR7012 offers the following additional features:

- Custom 2CH playback for dedicated stereo vs. multi channel playback settings
- Auro 3D/AuroMatic (in addition to Atmos/DTS:X)
- 2 line display on front panel vs only porthole
- Zone 3
- Blue ring around porthole
- 2nd 12v trigger
- Learning remote to control other devices w/backlight button
Hi.
What about the storage capacity of the capacitors on 6012?The same?15000*2 as on sr7200 or 10000*2 as on denon 3400h?
Why do you think sr6012 is sister 3400h? In 3400h there are no fans for example.Sr6012 weighs 12.8 kg,3400h 10.8 kg.
Or 6012 is 3400denon + hdam + 2fan?
I would be grateful for the answer, especially about the information about the capacitors))
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post #3214 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Simply connect the Front L/R pre-outs on the NR1608 to the NAD, set the NAD volume to 80% of max, run Audyssey on the NR1608.
Thanks - specifically to the "Main In" on the NAD, correct?
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post #3215 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 12:27 PM
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Hi All,
I'm planning to purchase an SR6012 this week. I can buy a refurbished one for $200 less than a new one. The refurbished has a factory one year warranty and the new has a three year one. I would appreciate any pros and cons on going the refurbished route.

As background, I'm replacing my 2003 NAD T572. My current set-up is in my living room with a 5.1, and my surround speakers elevated and angled down based on room geometry. I'm using KEF KHT speakers for R, L, surround, and sub with KEF T series for Center. I hope to buy some SVS Primes to use as height speakers to access Atmos in a 5.1.2 configuration and possibly 5.1.4 later down the road. I have a vaulted ceilings so ceiling speakers aren't players here.

Thanks!
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post #3216 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 02:10 PM
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I’d personally get the new one


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post #3217 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CDR A View Post
Hi All,
I'm planning to purchase an SR6012 this week. I can buy a refurbished one for $200 less than a new one. The refurbished has a factory one year warranty and the new has a three year one. I would appreciate any pros and cons on going the refurbished route.

As background, I'm replacing my 2003 NAD T572. My current set-up is in my living room with a 5.1, and my surround speakers elevated and angled down based on room geometry. I'm using KEF KHT speakers for R, L, surround, and sub with KEF T series for Center. I hope to buy some SVS Primes to use as height speakers to access Atmos in a 5.1.2 configuration and possibly 5.1.4 later down the road. I have a vaulted ceilings so ceiling speakers aren't players here.

Thanks!

The refurbished route is a lottery. Most who play seem to win, on occasion a loser raises issues on this forum.

Keep in mind that the extra two years of warranty, especially factory warranty, has a mark-to-market value. Without that extra two years, you are entering another lottery.

Have you gotten prices for a new unit from the Authorized Resellers who frequent this forum?
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post #3218 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
The refurbished route is a lottery. Most who play seem to win, on occasion a loser raises issues on this forum.

Keep in mind that the extra two years of warranty, especially factory warranty, has a mark-to-market value. Without that extra two years, you are entering another lottery.

Have you gotten prices for a new unit from the Authorized Resellers who frequent this forum?
Hi - thanks for the replies so far. I'm dealing with Safe and Sound at the moment but would welcome to know about other authorized shops - is that on a certain board or do I need to go searching? You're right about the extra two years, which essentially comes at a price of $100/year. I don't know if 1) that is a good value for an "extended" warranty or 2) most problems come within the first year.
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post #3219 of 4835 Old 11-24-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CDR A View Post
Hi - thanks for the replies so far. I'm dealing with Safe and Sound at the moment but would welcome to know about other authorized shops - is that on a certain board or do I need to go searching? You're right about the extra two years, which essentially comes at a price of $100/year. I don't know if 1) that is a good value for an "extended" warranty or 2) most problems come within the first year.


Neither does anyone else.

Make a decision and go for it

End of the day it’s your $200 and is small compared to cost of the unit


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Originally Posted by Tsurara View Post
Thanks - specifically to the "Main In" on the NAD, correct?
Not familiar with the NAD, but the NR1608 pre-outs can go to any analog stereo inputs (other than PHONO) on the NAD.
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Originally Posted by Лев123 View Post
Hi.
What about the storage capacity of the capacitors on 6012?The same?15000*2 as on sr7200 or 10000*2 as on denon 3400h?
Why do you think sr6012 is sister 3400h? In 3400h there are no fans for example.Sr6012 weighs 12.8 kg,3400h 10.8 kg.
Or 6012 is 3400denon + hdam + 2fan?
I would be grateful for the answer, especially about the information about the capacitors))
No clue on storage capacity, however, X3400H --> SR6012 --> X4400H --> SR7012 --> X6400H --> SR8012, so then mostly same features of the X3400H with some upgrades like the X4400H (eg. 9 amps).
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post #3222 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Лев123 View Post
Hi.
What about the storage capacity of the capacitors on 6012?The same?15000*2 as on sr7200 or 10000*2 as on denon 3400h?
Why do you think sr6012 is sister 3400h? In 3400h there are no fans for example.Sr6012 weighs 12.8 kg,3400h 10.8 kg.
Or 6012 is 3400denon + hdam + 2fan?
I would be grateful for the answer, especially about the information about the capacitors))
Caps are 12000/71 * 2.
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post #3223 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 02:01 PM
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I have a question if someone can help.

LPF for LFE setting. Should this match my crossover which are set to 80 for my mains?

When in Doubt...Go Flatout!

Last edited by Transfix; 11-25-2018 at 02:06 PM.
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post #3224 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Лев123 View Post
Hi.
What about the storage capacity of the capacitors on 6012?The same?15000*2 as on sr7200 or 10000*2 as on denon 3400h?
Why do you think sr6012 is sister 3400h? In 3400h there are no fans for example.Sr6012 weighs 12.8 kg,3400h 10.8 kg.
Or 6012 is 3400denon + hdam + 2fan?
I would be grateful for the answer, especially about the information about the capacitors))

Energy storage in a capacitor is:

U = 1/2 CV^2 in joules

C = capacitance in farads

V = essentially amplifier rail voltage, approx. plus/minus 60 volts. This will vary with the load on the power supply.

You can do the arithmetic.


Physically the SR6012 (this is less true for the SR6013) is very similar (many of the same circuit boards/components) to the X4400H, except the SR6012 has the HDAM output buffers.

Last edited by bigguyca; 11-25-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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post #3225 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 03:20 PM
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Thanks - specifically to the "Main In" on the NAD, correct?
Yes. That's the direct input to the power amplifier stage and it bypasses all controls whatsoever including volume. You are then using the NAD strictly as just a power amplifier and that's generally good because it keeps added noise, distortion, and frequency response anomalies [introduced by preamp stages] very low yet can accept a wide range of incoming voltages (volume levels) even higher than "line level" if need be. The only reason to consider using alternate inputs is if the fixed gain (the boost level) is either too high or too low to work with your external gear.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsurara View Post
Thanks - specifically to the "Main In" on the NAD, correct?
Yes. That's the direct input to the power amplifier stage and it bypasses all controls whatsoever including volume. You are then using the NAD strictly as just a power amplifier and that's generally good because it keeps added noise, distortion, and frequency response anomalies [introduced by preamp stages] very low yet can accept a wide range of incoming voltages (volume levels) even higher than "line level" if need be. The only reason to consider using alternate inputs is if the fixed gain (the boost level) is either too high or too low to work with your external gear.
Thanks! Now the big question for me on this is what to do with my USB DAC connection. I had originally drove it from the NAD's DAC card, but it appears I would have to either use something like Airplay, or get an external DAC to attach to the Marantz. Is that the best way to go , or would there theoretically be a way to send from NAD to Marantz then back to the NAD?
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post #3227 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Transfix View Post

LPF for LFE setting. Should this match my crossover which are set to 80 for my mains?
NO. "LPF for LFE" should be set for 120Hz, always. That should be the default setting as well.
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post #3228 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsurara View Post
Thanks! Now the big question for me on this is what to do with my USB DAC connection. I had originally drove it from the NAD's DAC card, but it appears I would have to either use something like Airplay, or get an external DAC to attach to the Marantz. Is that the best way to go , or would there theoretically be a way to send from NAD to Marantz then back to the NAD?
I'm of the mind the DAC in the Marantz is perfectly adequate [assuming it covers the formats you need it to and has the right input ports] for all people, on all music, through all gear, and therefore introducing extra stages both adds complexities, a potential for ground loops, costs money, and adds wires and connections which are new points of possible future failure.

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post #3229 of 4835 Old 11-25-2018, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
NO. "LPF for LFE" should be set for 120Hz, always. That should be the default setting as well.
I completely disagree with this (IMO) terrible advice. Subwoofers become directional at frequencies significantly above 80Hz (120Hz is utterly directional being a full half octave higher with very little dropoff with most low pass filters the rest of that octave and perhaps even higher) and most people do NOT put their subwoofers in the middle of the room and thus your bass will pull to one side. That is simply unacceptable, IMO. If anything, you should consider crossing LOWER than 80Hz (60Hz is much preferable if your mains can handle it as the crossover curves do not generally drop off quickly enough). Fortunately, Marantz and Denon receivers allow you to individually set the crossovers and so you can set larger bass capable speakers lower while leaving smaller and ceiling speakers at much higher frequencies and the subwoofer can takeover duties for the lightweight speakers where NECESSARY and leave the rest where it belongs above 80Hz, in the main speakers so directional frequencies appear in the right place in the room.

Personally, I use BOTH the sub's low pass and the receiver's low pass to increase the steepness of the curve and then measure for frequency response and adjust to even out any bumps near the frequencies (before room correction). Directional subwoofer bass SUCKS. It pulls you right out of the movie and makes you realize, HEY, there's a subwoofer over there making the explosion sounds that are supposed to be happening on the other side of the room.

Besides, there's very little content above 80Hz in the LFE channel and since subwoofers do not brick wall at the crossover point, you will still get some content there regardless. It's FAR more important to keep directional bass out of the subwoofer, IMO. YMMV with what you can stand.

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post #3230 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 02:15 AM
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I completely disagree with this (IMO) terrible advice.
Well I go by Audyssey co-founder Tomlinson Holman [among other things he is the brains behind, and the first two initials of THX, by the way] who was one of the main architects behind the entire system we now call "bass mangement" and Chris Kyriakakis, the other co-founder of Audyssey Labs who has written scholarly papers for peer reviewed journals specifically on the topic of subwoofer integration:

Quote:
LPF on LFE

"On my speaker configuration, there is setting called "LPF on LFE". Do you know what this is and what should the setting be. Right now I have it on 120 Hz."

Mauro LoRusso - July 28, 2016 09:58


Audyssey Labs November 05, 2010 06:47

It's a filter that is applied to the content of the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. That content is authored up to 120 Hz and so the only correct setting is 120 Hz.

. . .


Audyssey Labs January 09, 2011 07:11

The LPF filter for the LFE channel should always be set to 120 Hz. Any other setting is wrong. This filter has nothing to do with speaker roll offs and crossovers. It is a filter that is applied only to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. That material is authored to have content up to 120 Hz.

The crossover filter are a separate matter. They consist of a highpass and lowpass filter that is applied to the signal sent to each speaker. They are determined after the in-room measurements find the roll off points of each speaker.
[bold text emphasis mine]

Source: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...363-LPF-on-LFE

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post #3231 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 02:25 AM
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"Confusing LPF of LFE With Bass Management"

. . . "In practice this should always be set to 120Hz since the LFE channel supports information up to that frequency."

- W. Jeff Meier

ISF and THX Certified Home Theater Consultant

Home Cinema Guru

https://www.homecinemaguru.com/confu...ss-management/

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post #3232 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfix View Post
I have a question if someone can help.

LPF for LFE setting. Should this match my crossover which are set to 80 for my mains?
Although there are some cases where an owner might prefer 80Hz or 90Hz, in the majority of cases, as m. zillch noted, it should remain at the factory setting of 120Hz.
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post #3233 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Well I go by Audyssey co-founder Tomlinson Holman [among other things he is the brains behind, and the first two initials of THX, by the way] who was one of the main architects behind the entire system we now call "bass mangement" and Chris Kyriakakis, the other co-founder of Audyssey Labs who has written scholarly papers for peer reviewed journals specifically on the topic of subwoofer integration:
One person's opinion doesn't negate the average frequency humans can perceive bass localization (a well known psychoacoustic phenomena). This may vary somewhat by person (our heads aren't all the same exact size, etc.), but the higher you go above 80Hz, the more likely you can localize bass. IMO, 120Hz was a poor choice for the LFE top end for this reason, but I suppose it gives some headroom so it doesn't just fall off a cliff. I'm guessing they were considering many theaters probably had very poor bass in the surround speakers at the time, etc. as well and so pushing as much as they thought they could get away with to the subs (which are typically stereo in a theater) was a good idea. But that doesn't necessarily apply at home. This is why the setting is adjustable. The door swings both ways. You can shift bass to the main speakers or to the subwoofer. There are typically separate settings for the LFE channel, but it works the same way. It will send bass to the main speakers if you lower the number below the maximum. This gives you flexibility for both you and your room.

The idea that "one size fits all" is absolutely erroneous and I don't care what company that guy works for. That doesn't make him god. Too many people are impressed by fame and it doesn't make a human infallible. 120Hz is a full half octave into the potentially localized spectrum. If YOU want bass that can be localized in your subwoofer, go ahead. I sure as hell won't do it. I don't want to be staring at my sub when it should be audibly invisible. Setting that setting to 80Hz does not lose the information. It gets sent to the mains and no sub's crossover rolls off instantly anyway. A 12dB/octave crossover is down only 6dB at 120Hz, but that gives the mains the ability to present it in both channels and remove directionality. I use an even steeper crossover. I cannot tell where my sub is located when it plays.

Quote:
This filter has nothing to do with speaker roll offs and crossovers.
That is a misleading statement. That only means that the signal meant for the mains (or even a plain stereo signal) is not involved in that setting. The LFE setting is SEPARATE from the crossover for the main channels bass. However, it doesn't negate the fact bass management moves the bass to the other capable speakers when you have no sub or the crossover is set well below the maximum. It still moves the LFE bass to the mains. There is NO REASON to think that is a bad idea unless it causes problems with your room response. IF you have capable mains that can play to 30Hz, you can use a 60Hz point instead for both the mains and the LFE channel if you want. It will play both signals above that point through the mains. You do NOT lose any information. It simply gets shifted to other drivers. Frankly, I find the original "only one correct" bit unbelievably arrogant and absolute horse manure. IF there was only ONE correct point, there would be no adjustability in the setting allowed. It exists because we don't all use the same systems and speakers!

Now if you have two subs and can't localize tones at 120Hz (easy to test with some test tones), then by all means, let your subs play to 120Hz. Hell, you can cross your mains there too then if you really want to. Get a room response with the Audyssey app and see what combinations get you the best possible room response if you so desire. The system is flexible for a reason and one should not fear that, IMO. It's not hard to set it back if you don't like it.

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post #3234 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 10:38 AM
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This is why the setting is adjustable.
Nope. It's wrong that it is adjustable at all, but if you enjoy throwing out the possible content from 80-120Hz in the signal (which the artist creating it intended you to hear, not filter away, and which is reproduced in all commercial cinemas) because you feel it is "better", go for it.
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post #3235 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It exists because we don't all use the same systems and speakers!
Nope, it exists to give marketers an extra bullet point. Once Onkyo started doing it everyone had to follow suit or else they would be maligned as "missing a feature". Same with bi-wiring terminals on speakers: It's a completely worthless feature, catering to audio mythology, but consumers don't know that and if you take it away they'll complain and sales will be lost.

The existence of a feature does not prove its efficacy.

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post #3236 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 10:57 AM
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"The AVR subwoofer menu may also have setting called ‘LPF for LFE’. This controls the highest playback frequency for the LFE (.1) channel before being cut-off (i.e., low-pass filtered) by the AVR. This setting should be adjusted to 120 Hz, which is the default setting in most AVRs, and also matches best practices/standards for encoding/mixing DVDs."

[bold text emphasis mine]

-SVS Subwoofers
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post #3237 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Nope. It's wrong that it is adjustable at all, but if you enjoy throwing out the possible content from 80-120Hz in the signal (which the artist creating the content intended you to hear, not filter away, and which is reproduced in all commercial cinemas) because you feel it is "better", go for it.
Commercial cinemas have more than ONE subwoofer, Mr. Zilch. They are not going to localize a subwoofer the same way having one in the far corner of the room can do at home. Furthermore, the 120Hz setting does not exist because it's a good place to have bass (all studies show 80Hz to be the preferred human cutoff), but it exists for HEADROOM purposes. Brick wall filtering does not sound good. Most film mixers know this and avoid putting sounds in that region in the LFE channel (95% from what I've read). But you always get someone that isn't as good or knowledgable as others and does screwy things. Some movies mirror LFE content in the main channels and some do not. Having the ability to adjust settings is a good thing as you can make an unlistenable soundtrack more listenable by turning up/down the bass if needed (Marantz has a nice "option" menu to do this while the movie is playing even). But putting 120Hz in your sub could lead to localization. THAT is why it's bad. If you'd rather listen to some "name" on the Internet tell you what to do with your life, GO AHEAD. What I don't like is you trying to tell everyone else that one setting is best for all. That is horse crap, IMO. Our rooms, systems and ability to localize bass is not uniform in any sense of the word. You do not have a real movie theater in your house.

Many people like to run their subwoofers HOT (4-6dB above the flat setting). That can create BLOAT in bass above 100Hz or so. 6dB above flat would be even in the LFE range on a 12dB/octave filter so it would BLEND quite nicely to the 120Hz limit if then set at 80Hz. That filter is NOT a hard cutoff (I've said that before, but you continue to push the idea the sound is "thrown out" when it's filtered down in level).

If you want to read/argue on this topic (that is increasingly off-topic in this thread, I suggest these articles and/or forums. I've included some of my favorite posts).

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...st-performance

(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post34893889)
(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post34897649)
(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post34900305)

Frankly, I'm done. If you want to rant/rave off-topic have at it. There is a thread here for that argument. This thread is supposed to be about the late 2017 lineup of Marantz receivers, not your personal take on the universal LPF setting for the LFE channel.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #3238 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 12:27 PM
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This thread is supposed to be about the late 2017 lineup of Marantz receivers, not your personal take on the universal LPF setting for the LFE channel.
It's not "my personal take", it is the view of well-known industry experts like subwoofer designer Ed Mullen, SVS, Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey Labs, . . .
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post #3239 of 4835 Old 11-26-2018, 12:33 PM
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It's not "my personal take", it is the view of well-known industry experts like subwoofer designer Ed Mullen, SVS, THX, Tomlinson Holman, Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey Labs, . . .
So you let other people think for you all the time or just part of the time, m. Zilch? I'd rather know the facts and make up my own mind. My sub is +4dB. LFE is +2 on top of that. I'm perfectly happy with 80Hz. I've also adjusted my own sub's LPF for best room response (without/before Audyssey). It aligns with higher frequencies in a flat manner. I could not do this without some bass bloat and/or localization if the LPF was not adjustable. As I said, every room and setup and preference is different. Adjustable is good. Locked into settings is bad. People can read the facts for themselves and make up their own minds and better yet, try it and see what sounds/works better for them. All or nothing is the mindset of an extremist, IMO.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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So you let other people think for you all the time or just part of the time, m. Zilch? I'd rather know the facts and make up my own mind. My sub is +4dB. LFE is +2 on top of that. I'm perfectly happy with 80Hz. I've also adjusted my own sub's LPF for best room response (without/before Audyssey). It aligns with higher frequencies in a flat manner. I could not do this without some bass bloat and/or localization if the LPF was not adjustable. As I said, every room and setup and preference is different. Adjustable is good. Locked into settings is bad. People can read the facts for themselves and make up their own minds and better yet, try it and see what sounds/works better for them. All or nothing is the mindset of an extremist, IMO.
You think that sounds good? Try crossing your front L and R speakers so the L speaker gets the R sound and your R speaker gets the L sound.

OH. MY. GOD.
It sounds so much better and don't let other people tell you otherwise.
You have to really try it yourself and keep an open mind.
Don't knock it till you've tried it.
Everyone hears differently because we all have different ears.
What sounds good in one room won't necessarily sound best in anther room.
You can always switch back if you don't like it.
It costs nothing to try it out. Give it a go!
Think for yourself and don't let other people think for you.
If one person jumped off the Brooklyn bridge does that mean you should jump off the Brooklyn bridge?
YMMV
Everything is not black or white.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
Even Einstine made mistakes.

Just kidding.

Selecting anything other than 120Hz throws away possible content and it doesn't get re-directed anywhere; it is simply discarded.
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