*Official* Marantz 2017 NR1508/1608, SR5012/6012/7012 owner's thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CDR A View Post
Hi All,
I'm planning to purchase an SR6012 this week. I can buy a refurbished one for $200 less than a new one. The refurbished has a factory one year warranty and the new has a three year one. I would appreciate any pros and cons on going the refurbished route.

As background, I'm replacing my 2003 NAD T572. My current set-up is in my living room with a 5.1, and my surround speakers elevated and angled down based on room geometry. I'm using KEF KHT speakers for R, L, surround, and sub with KEF T series for Center. I hope to buy some SVS Primes to use as height speakers to access Atmos in a 5.1.2 configuration and possibly 5.1.4 later down the road. I have a vaulted ceilings so ceiling speakers aren't players here.

Thanks!

Others have mentioned there being a little bit of a lottery, but most are just as good as new. I bought a Marantz 6012 last week from the same refurbished seller you mentioned using an eBay coupon that reduced the price by another $100. It's going to replace a refurbished Denon 1613 that has given me no problems. I would expect if there's a problem, it will be apparent in the first month. Extended warranties are on average in favor of the warranty seller. The warranty providers are able to pay employees and make a profit on their sales even after paying for claims.


I recommend enjoying a refurbished unit for a nice discount. If you lose the lottery and get a faulty unit, the warranty covers you for a year. If you stay within the normal operating requirements, it's extremely unlikely to experience a problem more than a year later that would require a brand new receiver or expensive repair.
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post #3242 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:16 PM
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You think that sounds good? Try crossing your front L and R speakers so the L speaker gets the R sound and your R speaker gets the L sound.


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Selecting anything other than 120Hz throws away possible content and it doesn't get re-directed anywhere; it is simply discarded.

Again. It's a FILTER. It is not a hard cutoff. Nothing is "thrown away". It will be down 6dB at 120Hz if set to 80Hz. That's it. 95% of all LFE content is 80Hz or less anyway. Many movies have the LFE content in the mains as well (reducing it even further). And again, do whatever you want. I'm leaving mine at 80Hz. I use full range on my rear towers as well (OMG!).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #3243 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post





Again. It's a FILTER. It is not a hard cutoff. Nothing is "thrown away". It will be down 6dB at 120Hz if set to 80Hz. That's it. 95% of all LFE content is 80Hz or less anyway. Many movies have the LFE content in the mains as well (reducing it even further). And again, do whatever you want. I'm leaving mine at 80Hz. I use full range on my rear towers as well (OMG!).
Gentlemen, thanks for the insightful opinions and information. However, one question I have is, regardless who is right, where should the mains be set to? Should they be small or big? TIA
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post #3244 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:24 PM
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where should the mains be set to? Should they be small or big? TIA
If you believe in attempting to get a neutral response electrically rather than EQ'ing it in a haphazard manner that has nothing to do with your particular room's acoustics, at least before the room then wrecks it from acoustical EQ, and you believe in taking full advantage of the principle called "bass management" and want to use it [I recommend it], small.

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post #3245 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post





Again. It's a FILTER. It is not a hard cutoff. Nothing is "thrown away". It will be down 6dB at 120Hz if set to 80Hz. That's it. 95% of all LFE content is 80Hz or less anyway. Many movies have the LFE content in the mains as well (reducing it even further). And again, do whatever you want. I'm leaving mine at 80Hz. I use full range on my rear towers as well (OMG!).
You're completely missing the distinction between a crossover of content in the main channels to the subwoofer and the LFE being a separate channel. If you set the LFE below 120 Hz you filter out content on that channel. It won't go to the mains. That's like adding a 10KHz low pass filter on your center channel and stating the content above 10 KHz will just go to your left and right channels to give a more "enveloping" sound because you want highly directional frequencies pointed at your ears instead of your nose.
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post #3246 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vince48 View Post
Gentlemen, thanks for the insightful opinions and information. However, one question I have is, regardless who is right, where should the mains be set to? Should they be small or big? TIA
First of all, setting the speakers to small allows you to adjust the crossover points on the Marantz receivers (i.e. "small" doesn't have to mean "small" in that sense. You can lower them down to 40Hz even if you want). Large runs them full range. Where you set them is going to depend at least partially on whether you want a flat bass response or not. It's generally far easier to turn up the bass with the subwoofer than it is with the main speakers (i.e. You'd run Audyssey first and then tweak your sub level afterward). Room interactions can cause problems for some mains so some think it's easier to manage the bass with just the subwoofer handling everything (kind of a waste of full range mains, let alone some models that have built-in subs like DefTech sells), so ultimately it's going to be up to you. I believe the Audyssey app can give you before/after room response curves (I haven't even tried it yet since I'm not done with my room and I have some extra speakers that can't be directly corrected anyway without an external box like a minidsp) or you can just go old school and try the settings and LISTEN to the same material on both configurations and decide which you prefer. Not everything necessarily always works out in numbers and graphs the same way you think it should when you actually listen.

My advice? Try it both ways. It's not like someone is going to charge you more. I keep my bass up 4-6dB so I cross at 80Hz for all speakers except the rear surround ones in the back of my room as it doesn't have as good of bass coverage 24 feet back there as on the front/middle so I let the 35Hz capable towers run to 40Hz back there (at least until I get a second sub). Again, rooms vary. Materials in the rooms vary. More bass drivers can help break up standing waves. They can also cause more bumps.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

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post #3247 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If you believe in attempting to get a neutral response electrically, at least before the room then wrecks it, and you believe in taking full advantage of the principle called "bass management" and want to use it [I recommend it], small.

This is correct. If you have a subwoofer, then you want to crossover the lower frequencies to your subwoofer. If you set your mains to large, then no crossover will be applied to those speakers. Your subwoofer will play content 80hz and below with much less distortion than your mains.
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post #3248 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 01:58 PM
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You're completely missing the distinction between a crossover of content in the main channels to the subwoofer and the LFE being a separate channel. If you set the LFE below 120 Hz you filter out content on that channel. It won't go to the mains. That's like adding a 10KHz low pass filter on your center channel and stating the content above 10 KHz will just go to your left and right channels to give a more "enveloping" sound because you want highly directional frequencies pointed at your ears instead of your nose.
OMG..... This is getting farking old... I do have other things to do in life, believe it or not.

I *ALREADY SAID* :

*If you cross at 80Hz with the LPF on the LFE, you will have a crossover curve of what I assume is the standard 1st order 12dB/octave crossover on the LFE channel! That MEANS that it will start rolling off the LFE channel at 80Hz. 160Hz is one octave above 80Hz. At 12dB/octave, that means with a SETTING OF 80Hz, it will be down 6dB at 120Hz in the subwoofer. That is not "throwing out" information! It's slowly dropping it in level. I also said if you run your sub hot like 75%-85% of ALL home theater users do (average is +6dB on bass), that means you are FLAT at 120Hz with a setting of 80Hz. FLAT! You haven't lost a damn thing! It actually creates a SMOOTHER transition to the upper bass and rest of the range than crossing at 120Hz. Bass starts becoming boomy at around 100Hz.

*Better yet, reducing 120Hz levels to the sub minimizes the possibility of localization, which starts at some point above 80Hz for most people. \

*Moreover, the 120Hz range for the LFE channel was NOT created to put 120Hz bass content in that channel! It was purely for HEADROOM! Film mixers are NOT supposed to be going significantly over 80Hz in that channel in actual usage. If you tell the system you have no subwoofer, it will move ALL the LFE channel material into the mains that are set to large (if none are set to large, it sends it anyway to the front L/R channels which it assume will be the largest in use). That has been true since the mid to late 1990s on most processors. Nothing is lost without a sub as long as you have full range speakers. It is not thrown out. It is either reduced in level or moved to the mains depending on the setting. If your setting is low enough or your speakers can't handle the frequencies (including crappy subwoofers), then you may not actually hear it, but that is not the same as "throwing it out" as you seem to imply. Reduction in level is not removing. All normal crossovers reduce, not brick wall.

I've SAID *ALL* of that before. I will not repeat myself again. Good luck proving even ONE of those things aren't true.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #3249 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 02:43 PM
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A queston on filter orders and slopes

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
OMG..... This is getting farking old... I do have other things to do in life, believe it or not.

I *ALREADY SAID* :

*If you cross at 80Hz with the LPF on the LFE, you will have a crossover curve of what I assume is the standard 1st order 12dB/octave crossover on the LFE channel! That MEANS that it will start rolling off the LFE channel at 80Hz. 160Hz is one octave above 80Hz. At 12dB/octave, that means with a SETTING OF 80Hz, it will be down 6dB at 120Hz in the subwoofer. That is not "throwing out" information! It's slowly dropping it in level. I also said if you run your sub hot like 75%-85% of ALL home theater users do (average is +6dB on bass), that means you are FLAT at 120Hz with a setting of 80Hz. FLAT! You haven't lost a damn thing! It actually creates a SMOOTHER transition to the upper bass and rest of the range than crossing at 120Hz. Bass starts becoming boomy at around 100Hz.

*Better yet, reducing 120Hz levels to the sub minimizes the possibility of localization, which starts at some point above 80Hz for most people. \

*Moreover, the 120Hz range for the LFE channel was NOT created to put 120Hz bass content in that channel! It was purely for HEADROOM! Film mixers are NOT supposed to be going significantly over 80Hz in that channel in actual usage. If you tell the system you have no subwoofer, it will move ALL the LFE channel material into the mains that are set to large (if none are set to large, it sends it anyway to the front L/R channels which it assume will be the largest in use). That has been true since the mid to late 1990s on most processors. Nothing is lost without a sub as long as you have full range speakers. It is not thrown out. It is either reduced in level or moved to the mains depending on the setting. If your setting is low enough or your speakers can't handle the frequencies (including crappy subwoofers), then you may not actually hear it, but that is not the same as "throwing it out" as you seem to imply. Reduction in level is not removing. All normal crossovers reduce, not brick wall.

I've SAID *ALL* of that before. I will not repeat myself again. Good luck proving even ONE of those things aren't true.

The point of this post is not to enter into this crossover frequency discussion, but to gather information on the typical, standardized, used by some companies, whatever, slopes / filters orders, that involve the transition from L, R, C, etc. speakers to the subwoofer a the home theater system and also the filter used for the LFE channel. What do Denon/Marantz or Yamaha actually use for example, not opinions concerning what they "should" use.

First some housecleaning: 12 dB per octave filters are 2nd order, not first order

Next.....

A bit of searching hasn't found a definitive answer, which is surprising, but it "appears" most crossover filters in AVR's/AVP's have the following orders/slopes.

High pass filters - 2nd order, that is 12 dB per octave

Low pass filters - this would be to the subwoofer(s) - 4th order, that is 24 dB per octave - This applies both between the subwoofer and regular speakers and the LFE channel.


Here is one well written, although not necessarily authoritative source on the subject.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817


Are the filters listed above the ones used in practice? Authoritative references would be preferred.
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post #3250 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 02:49 PM
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OMG..... This is getting farking old... I do have other things to do in life, believe it or not.

I *ALREADY SAID* :

*If you cross at 80Hz with the LPF on the LFE, you will have a crossover curve of what I assume is the standard 1st order 12dB/octave crossover on the LFE channel! That MEANS that it will start rolling off the LFE channel at 80Hz. 160Hz is one octave above 80Hz. At 12dB/octave, that means with a SETTING OF 80Hz, it will be down 6dB at 120Hz in the subwoofer. That is not "throwing out" information! It's slowly dropping it in level. I also said if you run your sub hot like 75%-85% of ALL home theater users do (average is +6dB on bass), that means you are FLAT at 120Hz with a setting of 80Hz. FLAT! You haven't lost a damn thing! It actually creates a SMOOTHER transition to the upper bass and rest of the range than crossing at 120Hz. Bass starts becoming boomy at around 100Hz.

*Better yet, reducing 120Hz levels to the sub minimizes the possibility of localization, which starts at some point above 80Hz for most people. \

*Moreover, the 120Hz range for the LFE channel was NOT created to put 120Hz bass content in that channel! It was purely for HEADROOM! Film mixers are NOT supposed to be going significantly over 80Hz in that channel in actual usage. If you tell the system you have no subwoofer, it will move ALL the LFE channel material into the mains that are set to large (if none are set to large, it sends it anyway to the front L/R channels which it assume will be the largest in use). That has been true since the mid to late 1990s on most processors. Nothing is lost without a sub as long as you have full range speakers. It is not thrown out. It is either reduced in level or moved to the mains depending on the setting. If your setting is low enough or your speakers can't handle the frequencies (including crappy subwoofers), then you may not actually hear it, but that is not the same as "throwing it out" as you seem to imply. Reduction in level is not removing. All normal crossovers reduce, not brick wall.

I've SAID *ALL* of that before. I will not repeat myself again. Good luck proving even ONE of those things aren't true.

Two of the things you said are not true. First, the LPF on the LFE is not a 2nd order crossover. It is a cut-off in the digital processing of the .1 channel and does act as a brick wall. Second, when using bass management, receivers use 4th order (24db/octave) low pass filters for the subwoofer. A 2nd order (12db/octave) high pass is applied to the mains.


If you're crossing over your subs at 40Hz or 60Hz to compensate for running them 6db hot, it may be better to turn them down and use the recommended 80Hz -3db point for the sub/mains crossover. This reduces power needed from the AVR amplifiers and distortion from your main speakers.
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post #3251 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 03:14 PM
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Two of the things you said are not true. First, the LPF on the LFE is not a 2nd order crossover. It is a cut-off in the digital processing of the .1 channel and does act as a brick wall.
I'll give you the 1st versus 2nd order crossover (it's been awhile), but beyond that, let's have a look.

Dare I ask for actual PROOF of this supposed brick wall filter? I can't think of a single case where a brick wall is used anywhere near an audible frequency save perhaps a few crappy 1st generation CD players. Oversampling solved all the issues with brick wall filtering early on. A lot of advancements have happened in sampling since then (multi-bit oversampling, 1-bit converters, etc.) but I can't really see an AVR using a brick wall filter near the audible range. The consequences to phase along would be disastrous. Besides, the LFE channel has already been bandwidth limited on the recording end. It has no content above 120Hz in it REGARDLESS of where you set that filter. If they're going to offer adjustments to the LFE signal, it only makes sense they would use a 12dB or 24dB/octave filter there.

Quote:
If you're crossing over your subs at 40Hz or 60Hz to compensate for running them 6db hot, it may be better to turn them down and use the recommended 80Hz -3db point for the sub/mains crossover. This reduces power needed from the AVR amplifiers and distortion from your main speakers.
I said I'm crossing them at 80Hz. The example was where it would be with a 12dB/octave crossover at 120Hz with the LFE LPF. If it's 24db/octave, it would be down 12dB at 120Hz for the LFE only plus the 6dB boost or down 6dB. That's lower in volume, but hardly the trash can. But then you claim that's not a regular LPF at all, but a brick wall. Again, I highly doubt that. Brick wall filtering would be a mess on the playback side and completely unneeded on a signal that is already bandwidth limited.

In any case, the purpose of running any frequency range higher than normal is TASTE. I, like most people prefer a bit more output in the lower two octaves, but not much above that where it starts to sound boomy to my ears. I did all my testing with regular signals (I have no test tones that are LFE only in the LFE channel, only stereo tones at various frequencies). I have it currently +4dB from 20Hz to 80Hz and then it rolls down to flat by 100Hz and stays there the rest of the way up.) LFE is currently set to 0dB (too many newer movies have way too high LFE signals for me to want that channel any hotter, especially when a lot of movies duplicate the LFE channel in the mains or vice versa. Black Panther had my walls shaking most of the movie (not in a pleasant way given its low levels elsewhere in the spectrum).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #3252 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I'll give you the 1st versus 2nd order crossover (it's been awhile), but beyond that, let's have a look.

Dare I ask for actual PROOF of this supposed brick wall filter? I can't think of a single case where a brick wall is used anywhere near an audible frequency save perhaps a few crappy 1st generation CD players. Oversampling solved all the issues with brick wall filtering early on. A lot of advancements have happened in sampling since then (multi-bit oversampling, 1-bit converters, etc.) but I can't really see an AVR using a brick wall filter near the audible range. The consequences to phase along would be disastrous. Besides, the LFE channel has already been bandwidth limited on the recording end. It has no content above 120Hz in it REGARDLESS of where you set that filter. If they're going to offer adjustments to the LFE signal, it only makes sense they would use a 12dB or 24dB/octave filter there.



I said I'm crossing them at 80Hz. The example was where it would be with a 12dB/octave crossover at 120Hz with the LFE LPF. If it's 24db/octave, it would be down 12dB at 120Hz for the LFE only plus the 6dB boost or down 6dB. That's lower in volume, but hardly the trash can. But then you claim that's not a regular LPF at all, but a brick wall. Again, I highly doubt that. Brick wall filtering would be a mess on the playback side and completely unneeded on a signal that is already bandwidth limited.

In any case, the purpose of running any frequency range higher than normal is TASTE. I, like most people prefer a bit more output in the lower two octaves, but not much above that where it starts to sound boomy to my ears. I did all my testing with regular signals (I have no test tones that are LFE only in the LFE channel, only stereo tones at various frequencies). I have it currently +4dB from 20Hz to 80Hz and then it rolls down to flat by 100Hz and stays there the rest of the way up.) LFE is currently set to 0dB (too many newer movies have way too high LFE signals for me to want that channel any hotter, especially when a lot of movies duplicate the LFE channel in the mains or vice versa. Black Panther had my walls shaking most of the movie (not in a pleasant way given its low levels elsewhere in the spectrum).
I have seen the LPF setting referred to as a cutoff, above which the signal is not processed. Here is one example.

https://www.homecinemaguru.com/confusing-lfe-of-lpf-with-bass-management/
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post #3253 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 04:11 PM
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Are the filters listed above the ones used in practice? Authoritative references would be preferred.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the actual test report as seen in the magazine, however I do happen to have access to the raw data they use to write the reviews for HiFiNews magazine in the UK [the oldest audio magazine according to them and I believe the largest in the UK]. These sorts of magazines usually shun writing reviews of "lowlife" receivers and instead usually stick to separates, but on rare occasion one or two slip through. Here is a high end Yamaha c. 2008 called a DSPZ11. Comparing the 21Hz output level to the 42Hz output level it would seem the measured slope is around 10dB/octave. Keep in mind now that we live in a digital world I don't think we are limited to strict "orders" like 6 db/octave, 12, etc. so oddball numbers which don't exist in analog world, like 10db/oct., can exist.


Also shown in magenta is what I assume is the sub out but they don't really say nor do they give numbers for it [the numbers are for the green curve, a main speaker] however it is extremely steep so I see no reason we can't count it as (close to) "brick wall":
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I have seen the LPF setting referred to as a cutoff, above which the signal is not processed. Here is one example.

https://www.homecinemaguru.com/confu...ss-management/
Either way there is no "signal" above 120Hz since it's bandwidth limited (already bricked off on the recording end). You don't have to worry about lowering the signal above 120Hz as it does not exist. You really have a choice between worrying about 6 possible notes being missing or lower in level from the LFE track and hearing those notes come from a sub that is probably in a corner somewhere you'd really rather not realize is there. Neither are terribly likely as there is very little signal above 80Hz in the LFE track either way and probably duplicate bass in the main channels (or sub if they're crossed above it) anyway. It's a big ado about nothing. I err on the side of not wanting to hear any subwoofer directionality.

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post #3255 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 04:27 PM
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Unfortunately I don't have access to the actual test report as seen in the magazine, however I do happen to have access to the raw data they use to write the reviews for HiFiNews magazine in the UK [the oldest audio magazine according to them and I believe the largest in the UK]. . . . Here is a high end Yamaha c. 2008 called a DSPZ11.
https://www.whathifi.com/yamaha/dsp-z11/review
Not much more info in the review, unfortunately.
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post #3256 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 05:07 PM
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I purchased an NR1608 to work in two zones.

Zone 1 is a stereo set of speakers in my master bedroom. I have an Apple TV that I want dedicated for this zone.
Zone 2 are stereo in-ceiling speakers in my master bathroom. I want to use AirPlay 2 to stream audio to this zone.

Today, when I start to stream audio to the receiver for playback in zone 2, it automatically plays the stream in zone 1. I have to go into the remote app, turn on zone 2, and switch zone 1 back to Apple TV. It is incredibly painful.

Is there a way for me to lock the Apple TV input to zone 1 and streaming to zone 2? Is there another way for me to have the receiver startup in this configuration?
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post #3257 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 05:52 PM
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Ok. So I got my replacement 6012. And with the on screen display setting turned on....will not show the volume, source or audio settings. It will show when I am in the setup menu though. Any ideas?

Marantz 6012 | Dual Full Marty’s with UM18's | iNuke6000DSP | ViewSonic PJD7828HDL | 135” Elite Screen 16:9 | Dual 8” speakercraft LCR | AIM 7 Surrounds | 5.2.2 Currently
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post #3258 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 05:55 PM
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Ok. So I got my replacement 6012. And with the on screen display setting turned on....will not show the volume, source or audio settings. It will show when I am in the setup menu though. Any ideas?
I suspect you have "video conversion" set to "off". On some units using Direct or Pure Direct also can kill some useful on screen stuff.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #3259 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I suspect you have "video conversion" set to "off". On some units using Direct or Pure Direct also can kill some useful on screen stuff.
I do.... thanks!

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post #3260 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 05:58 PM
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*Official* Marantz 2017 NR1508/1608, SR5012/6012/7012 owner's thread

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Originally Posted by Kraqa View Post
Ok. So I got my replacement 6012. And with the on screen display setting turned on....will not show the volume, source or audio settings. It will show when I am in the setup menu though. Any ideas?


Prob vid conversion, Mine is set to on and all overlays are visible

Edit sorry didn’t see Zilch response


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post #3261 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
I recommend enjoying a refurbished unit for a nice discount. If you lose the lottery and get a faulty unit, the warranty covers you for a year. If you stay within the normal operating requirements, it's extremely unlikely to experience a problem more than a year later that would require a brand new receiver or expensive repair.
Bjaurelio - thank you for the words of support, I was leaning that way with the same logic. However, I decided to buy an open-box SR7012. I shifted to the SR7012 based on the seemingly small increase in price compared to the SR6012 (especially compared to the big step up to the SR8012). The differential between open-box and refurbished was only $50 for the SR7012 and the open-box has the 3-year warranty.

Another point I recognized is that some credit cards automatically extend the warranty for two years - so that is another assurance for buying refurbished.
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post #3262 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Unfortunately I don't have access to the actual test report as seen in the magazine, however I do happen to have access to the raw data they use to write the reviews for HiFiNews magazine in the UK [the oldest audio magazine according to them and I believe the largest in the UK]. These sorts of magazines usually shun writing reviews of "lowlife" receivers and instead usually stick to separates, but on rare occasion one or two slip through. Here is a high end Yamaha c. 2008 called a DSPZ11. Comparing the 21Hz output level to the 42Hz output level it would seem the measured slope is around 10dB/octave. Keep in mind now that we live in a digital world I don't think we are limited to strict "orders" like 6 db/octave, 12, etc. so oddball numbers which don't exist in analog world, like 10db/oct., can exist.
The first graph appears to be set to 80Hz (-3dB point) at about 10dB/octave slope.

The second graph looks steeper because the range has changed on the magnitude. It's hard to be sure of the exact end point, but I think it goes just beyond 120Hz. At 120Hz, it may very well be -2. 60Hz is right about 10. That's close to 12dB/octave on average. It then drops off the bottom because it's bandwidth limited (no signal after 120Hz is allowed; you could call that limit a "brick wall" of sorts, but the crossover slope is only around 12dB/octave until that point.).

Quote:
Also shown in magenta is what I assume is the sub out but they don't really say nor do they give numbers for it [the numbers are for the green curve, a main speaker] however it is extremely steep so I see no reason we can't count it as (close to) "brick wall":
I'd hardly call 12dB/octave a brick wall.

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post #3263 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
(close to) "brick wall":
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It's hard to be sure of the exact end point, but I think it goes just beyond 120Hz. At 120Hz, it may very well be -2. 60Hz is right about 10. That's close to 12dB/octave on average. .
I'd hardly call 12dB/octave a brick wall.
You aren't reading it right. The slope is determined by where it becomes constant, and not where it is continually changing from frequency to frequency and then "averaged". This cropped enlargement from the above image may help:

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post #3264 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 10:12 PM
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It's bandwidth limited to 120Hz so of course it falls off at the end. The slope before that point is not that steep, however. Let's see a graph for the LPF for the LFE set to 60Hz. That would make it much easier to see.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #3265 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It's bandwidth limited to 120Hz so of course it falls off at the end. The slope before that point is not that steep, however.
I like how you seem to think you get to define the slope by using whatever part of the constantly changing curve appeals to you rather than the correct part I just indicated. You are wrong and you aren't fooling anyone.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 11-26-2018 at 10:44 PM.
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post #3266 of 4834 Old 11-26-2018, 10:46 PM
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Let's see a graph for the LPF for the LFE set to 60Hz.
The reason you can't find that is because all competent reviewers know 120Hz is the only correct value for LPF for LFE. Any other setting is potentially altering the content in a manner the creators of it did not intend.
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post #3267 of 4834 Old 11-27-2018, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaks View Post
I purchased an NR1608 to work in two zones.

Zone 1 is a stereo set of speakers in my master bedroom. I have an Apple TV that I want dedicated for this zone.
Zone 2 are stereo in-ceiling speakers in my master bathroom. I want to use AirPlay 2 to stream audio to this zone.

Today, when I start to stream audio to the receiver for playback in zone 2, it automatically plays the stream in zone 1. I have to go into the remote app, turn on zone 2, and switch zone 1 back to Apple TV. It is incredibly painful.

Is there a way for me to lock the Apple TV input to zone 1 and streaming to zone 2? Is there another way for me to have the receiver startup in this configuration?
And yet, this is how it must be done.
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Hello,

I have a problem with NR1608.

After 1 hour work it stops into standby mode as red-light is flashing very frequently.

After restart it works again without problems for the same period for about 1 hour.

The configuration is Tv setup box connected with HDMI to NR1608 and receiver connected to LG C8 Tv with HDMI (ARC).I have two jbl lsr305 active speakers connected to the NR1608 zone2 pre-out.

I use “All zone stereo” mode to get output to Zone 2 pre-out.
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post #3269 of 4834 Old 11-27-2018, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ivangs View Post
Hello,

I have a problem with NR1608.

After 1 hour work it stops into standby mode as red-light is flashing very frequently.

After restart it works again without problems for the same period for about 1 hour.

The configuration is Tv setup box connected with HDMI to NR1608 and receiver connected to LG C8 Tv with HDMI (ARC).I have two jbl lsr305 active speakers connected to the NR1608 zone2 pre-out.

I use “All zone stereo” mode to get output to Zone 2 pre-out.
This issue would normally present when a loose speaker wire from one post is touching another post, however, with only two active speakers connected, there are no speaker wire connections. If using the Zone 2 Setup - Volume Level - Variable (default) setting, then try raising the volume on the active speakers to at least 80% of maximum.
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post #3270 of 4834 Old 11-27-2018, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
This issue would normally present when a loose speaker wire from one post is touching another post, however, with only two active speakers connected, there are no speaker wire connections. If using the Zone 2 Setup - Volume Level - Variable (default) setting, then try raising the volume on the active speakers to at least 80% of maximum.

Thank you i will try.
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