*Official* Marantz 2017 NR1508/1608, SR5012/6012/7012 owner's thread - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 4742 Old 12-03-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
While the neutral is bonded to the 3rd wire ground system, and the ground rod at the service entrance, the neutral is NOT a ground, and should not be treated as such. AVR's and AVP's (double-insulated) that use only a hot and neutral, do not treat the neutral as ground. The only connections to either of the power wires in these units is via low value capacitors. The case is also of course not connected to either of these wires in a double-insulated unit. As verification, if technical (balanced) power, in which both power wires are hot (+/- 60 V), is fed to an AVR that has a two wire power connector, the AVR will function normally and safely, as will any other equipment fed by technical power.

The ground rod system at the service entrance to a house is to provide some protection for the house from surges on the power lines from outside of the house, such as those caused by lightening strikes. The 3rd wire ground system inside the house is part of a system to protect humans injury or death from electrical power. This 3rd wire ground safety system inside the house will function effectively with or without the ground rod system.
Thanks for the lecture on grounding safety, but I'm talking about ground loops as potential sources of 60Hz hum, not metal case safety and lightning strikes. Yes, the extra ground is there for safety reasons. However, it creates even more potential for ground loops as the ground is eventually connected to the neutral line either at the breaker box or the transformer pole. It SHOULD be at the same potential at that point, but the stark reality is that it often isn't exactly the same ground potential at the pole as the ground stake, let alone if you create a loop inside the house wiring. Amplifiers amplify so it doesn't take much to create a hum in an audio system.

Here, we have what (based on the photos I've looked at) appears to be a 3-prong AC cable powered subwoofer which means the case is most likely connected to the ground wire (not double insulated). How is the trigger circuit connected in the subwoofer? Is it grounded to the case per chance (hence my comment about the 3-prong sub)? If it is, that creates the possibility for any ground potential difference between the house ground (3rd prong wired to subwoofer amplifier case) and the neutral return wire (AVR trigger that is only connected to neutral) to manifest itself as they are then connected electrically at that point. Pulling the ground from the trigger removing the hum certainly indicates a ground loop has been created at that point either way. If the sub is on a different outlet, it could happen even without a grounded trigger.

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post #3332 of 4742 Old 12-03-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Thanks for the lecture on grounding safety, but I'm talking about ground loops as potential sources of 60Hz hum, not metal case safety and lightning strikes. Yes, the extra ground is there for safety reasons. However, it creates even more potential for ground loops as the ground is eventually connected to the neutral line either at the breaker box or the transformer pole. It SHOULD be at the same potential at that point, but the stark reality is that it often isn't exactly the same ground potential at the pole as the ground stake, let alone if you create a loop inside the house wiring. Amplifiers amplify so it doesn't take much to create a hum in an audio system.

Here, we have what (based on the photos I've looked at) appears to be a 3-prong AC cable powered subwoofer which means the case is most likely connected to the ground wire (not double insulated). How is the trigger circuit connected in the subwoofer? Is it grounded to the case per chance (hence my comment about the 3-prong sub)? If it is, that creates the possibility for any ground potential difference between the house ground (3rd prong wired to subwoofer amplifier case) and the neutral return wire (AVR trigger that is only connected to neutral) to manifest itself as they are then connected electrically at that point. Pulling the ground from the trigger removing the hum certainly indicates a ground loop has been created at that point either way. If the sub is on a different outlet, it could happen even without a grounded trigger.

At least in an AVR/AVP the trigger is connected to a DC supply, usually 12 V DC. In the power circuit for the trigger there are two lines; 12 V DC and a trigger ground. Often this is a rectified supply off a set of windings from the unit's transformer. Following there is a regulator or a DC to DC converter depending on the design. The ground will return in a number of different ways depending on the unit. The 12 V DC supply may only be used by the trigger circuit or it may also be used to power relays or perhaps other devices.

It isn't clear what you mean by neutral. The only neutral is part of the 120 V supply. This supply is connected to an SMPS and a transformer in many AVR's/AVP's. Your text mixes signal grounds, trigger grounds, safety grounds and neutrals. In a unit it seems bad practice to mix the ground from a trigger circuit, which is low voltage DC, with a safety ground from the 120 V supply.

Agreed though, there was a ground loop and now its broken.
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post #3333 of 4742 Old 12-03-2018, 04:22 PM
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Not sure if I should post here, but my SR5012 is my first new receiver in a long while. I'm currently using a Denon avr 5700 and 3300, both will output audio from the center regardless of input.

I did the calibration, right now I'm only running 3 fronts until I get the surrounds in place, but I have dialogue from the center in certain programs, but watching a local network on Fios, it goes back and forth from 2ch to 3ch. Is there any way to lock in the center channel full time?

Probably a simple setting but curious as to why even though the program shows Dolby digital on my other receiver.
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post #3334 of 4742 Old 12-03-2018, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by i6pwr View Post
Probably a simple setting but curious as to why even though the program shows Dolby digital on my other receiver.
One varierty of Dolby Digital is 2.0.
Braoadcasts or commercials like that shouldn't have center channel output if used in direct fashion.
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post #3335 of 4742 Old 12-03-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
At least in an AVR/AVP the trigger is connected to a DC supply, usually 12 V DC. In the power circuit for the trigger there are two lines; 12 V DC and a trigger ground. Often this is a rectified supply off a set of windings from the unit's transformer. Following there is a regulator or a DC to DC converter depending on the design. The ground will return in a number of different ways depending on the unit. The 12 V DC supply may only be used by the trigger circuit or it may also be used to power relays or perhaps other devices.

It isn't clear what you mean by neutral. The only neutral is part of the 120 V supply. This supply is connected to an SMPS and a transformer in many AVR's/AVP's. Your text mixes signal grounds, trigger grounds, safety grounds and neutrals. In a unit it seems bad practice to mix the ground from a trigger circuit, which is low voltage DC, with a safety ground from the 120 V supply.
There's no such things as "signal grounds, trigger grounds," etc. They're all just grounds or return paths in a circuit. The only difference between a "Neutral" and a "Ground" is where they are grounded in building wiring. Both are ultimately return paths and both are ultimately connected to a ground at some point. In circuit design, you typically just refer to ground connections (a hard path to ground has its own symbol).

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Agreed though, there was a ground loop and now its broken.
Here, it seems the trigger on the sub doesn't need the return on the trigger cable to function ('ground' connections on both sides create a common return path), but that implies the AVR and subwoofer are sitting at two different ground (return) potentials since there's a hum when they're connected (i.e. say they're using two different outlets with a slightly different ground potential in the neutral line; by connecting them, you're letting that potential pass into the return line of the subwoofer). By not connecting their return lines through the signal cable, the ground current never makes a new loop and avoids the hum. But that hum has to come from somewhere. There's a non-zero signal in one of the return lines.

As you say, it's bad practice to use the real ground, so that then immediately begs the question of whether this subwoofer is plugged into a different outlet than the AVR. I'm guessing yes and I'd be curious to know if that is indeed the case.

If not, I'm back to guessing there must be something going on with the 3rd ground wire in the sub somewhere (i.e. making a connection where it shouldn't). It's the only other place I can think of that a loop could occur with a different potential barring something unexpected in the area.

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post #3336 of 4742 Old 12-04-2018, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by i6pwr View Post
Not sure if I should post here, but my SR5012 is my first new receiver in a long while. I'm currently using a Denon avr 5700 and 3300, both will output audio from the center regardless of input.

I did the calibration, right now I'm only running 3 fronts until I get the surrounds in place, but I have dialogue from the center in certain programs, but watching a local network on Fios, it goes back and forth from 2ch to 3ch. Is there any way to lock in the center channel full time?
You can get a center channel most of the time if you enable one of the upmixers (Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X): use one of the remote's buttons Music, Movie or Game and select either of those Sound Modes in the on-screen menu. The upmixers will expand stereo (2.0) soundtracks to use all of your speakers.

You can't get it all of the time because some stations broadcast 5.1 DD surround-sound but with audio only in the front left and right channels: their center (and surround) channels are present but silent. Since they're already using all of the speaker channels, upmixing can't do anything to change that.

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post #3337 of 4742 Old 12-04-2018, 09:42 AM
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Was there another Earc update? I got notice couple weeks ago but I swear I did that update when I got my replacement unit.

In fact I know I dd the update because becore I got the replacement unit I saved my setup to a usb and when the replacement came it wouldnt take the usb data until my new unit was on the same firmware as my old one which had the Earc update on it....
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post #3338 of 4742 Old 12-05-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
There's no such things as "signal grounds, trigger grounds," etc. They're all just grounds or return paths in a circuit. The only difference between a "Neutral" and a "Ground" is where they are grounded in building wiring. Both are ultimately return paths and both are ultimately connected to a ground at some point. In circuit design, you typically just refer to ground connections (a hard path to ground has its own symbol).
Oh, dear! The first and third statements are FALSE!

Precisely why one gets ground loop hums is because the circuitS (plural) have DIFFERENT signal grounds at different potentials. True that all are return paths - but what is important is WHOSE return path - not whether "grounded" in building.

Oh, dear.
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post #3339 of 4742 Old 12-05-2018, 01:41 PM
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Oh, dear! The first and third statements are FALSE!

Precisely why one gets ground loop hums is because the circuitS (plural) have DIFFERENT signal grounds at different potentials. True that all are return paths - but what is important is WHOSE return path - not whether "grounded" in building.

Oh, dear.
You should look up what a label is.

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post #3340 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 01:16 AM
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You should look up what a label is.
Oh, dear.

Labels are labels. They are put there to tell you something just like road signs. They do not conduct nor generate currents, so cannot be the cause of ground loop hums.
What matters are the resulting flows of current as a consequence of interconnecting the various equipment, and where some currents flow where they should not as a result then perhaps hum would result if not worse.

Part and parcel in the analysis of determining and/or discussing whether bad interconnections are present is to use convenient technical jargon that represent well-known patterns or ideas of which the terms "signal ground, trigger ground, safety ground" are first-class citizens. Each means a completely different thing and fully understood by every practitioner of the art and science of electronics.

Your statement """There's no such things as "signal grounds, trigger grounds," etc."" is definitely FALSE.

Oh, my dear.
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post #3341 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 03:43 AM
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Those "grounds" are just different locations along the common ground. It's a reference label used to indicate a location. There is no device or point there. It's a wire, trace or connection. It's no different than saying "the wire between R1 and C2". The wire is real. The pointers are virtual. Functionally, there is no such thing as a virtual ground. Trigger ground is meaningless beyond indicating a point "somewhere" near the trigger or trigger circuit and those don't have to be in the same physical location either. But a ground is still a ground. It's supposed to be the same thing electrically speaking. Having a problem in the ground wiring path doesn't make it something new or different. Trigger ground is just a label indicating a general location. The wiring there could be an inch or a foot. It tells you very little indeed a it's not a component, but a label.

Now if you're done trolling for the day, I've got better things to do. :P

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post #3342 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 09:33 AM
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I didnt totally follow but a trigger wire causing humm..Well I mistakenly purchased a trigger wire 3.5m short wire from monoprice and its 2 fat wires.. Anyhow when i hook that up to my emotiva amp I get a super loud buzz, took it off and never used it again, I got a 8 ft trigger wire lol that doesnt buzz...
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post #3343 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Those "grounds" are just different locations along the common ground. It's a reference label used to indicate a location. There is no device or point there. It's a wire, trace or connection. It's no different than saying "the wire between R1 and C2". The wire is real. The pointers are virtual. Functionally, there is no such thing as a virtual ground. Trigger ground is meaningless beyond indicating a point "somewhere" near the trigger or trigger circuit and those don't have to be in the same physical location either. But a ground is still a ground. It's supposed to be the same thing electrically speaking. Having a problem in the ground wiring path doesn't make it something new or different. Trigger ground is just a label indicating a general location. The wiring there could be an inch or a foot. It tells you very little indeed a it's not a component, but a label.

Now if you're done trolling for the day, I've got better things to do. :P
You are partly correct this time, but still mostly incorrect.

The most important first 2 statements plus other strong ones like "But a ground is still a ground. It's supposed to be the same thing electrically speaking." are incorrect The rest are so so.

Like I mentioned earlier, the labels are there to tell you something. They are there to aid you trace the functional circuits if one wishes to - not "grounds" as a general functional location. "Grounds" as a general functional location is meaningless in almost all contexts. Ground must always refer to a SPECIFIC functional context, like "analog ground, safety ground, etc". If ground is a RETURN PATH then it must always be used in the context of WHOSE to be meaningful, unless of course if used in only one context. In most diagrams, the label may not secifically say WHOSE but is implied by the context it is in. Regardless, the important thing is to understand the resulting flow of currents, especially into the wires used to connect audio equipment.

Since we are talking about PLURALity of the circuits - your first two statements and most of the text of your post are INCORRECT.

Oh, dear.

My suggestion is for you not to change the meanings of well-known terms so as not to make difficult for readers to make sense of what you post. Sometimes it is best to say something along the lines of "I do not know" that is short, concise and easy to understand - that would help towards readers' understanding.
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post #3344 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 01:06 PM
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You are partly correct this time, but still mostly incorrect.


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Last edited by rboster; 12-07-2018 at 02:43 AM.
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post #3345 of 4742 Old 12-06-2018, 11:40 PM
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Hey I posted this on the speaker forum, but figured I'd try to get some help here as well.

Hey everyone so here's my setup:

Marantz SR6012 Receiver
Klipsch RP-280FA Pair
Klipsch RP-450C
Klipsch Surrounds and Monoprice Ceiling Speakers
Revel B12 Subwoofer

HDMI Connections from PC, PS4, Fire Stick 4k and Receiver connected to Samsung Plasma.

I just put everything together a few weeks ago except for the Revel B12, which I bought locally this week. The guy said he never used it and it was sealed when I bought it. Everything works great, BUT there's a slight buzzing sound coming from all of the speakers.

When I disconnect the Subwoofer RCA Cable it goes away. There's still a slight hissing/buzz sound coming from the PC HDMI Input, but much less than from the subwoofer. When I disconnect the HDMI that's connected to the PC some of the hissing/buzzing goes away, but most of it seems to be caused by the RCA Subwoofer Cable.

I've tried moving everything to one Surge Protector and then separate Surge Protectors connected to separate outlets, but no matter what it's still there.

Should my next move be to buy something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/Transformer-E...p+isolator+rca

I went ahead and ordered a new subwoofer cable just to rule that out.

Based on the research I've done it seems like Marantz and Nvidia don't play well together. Do I need to buy one of these to remove the PC HDMI noise? Or is there a cheaper alternative?
https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-Gr...s=ebtech+hum+x


Any help would greatly be appreciated when it comes to the Subwoofer Buzzing and PC HDMI Input Static/Buzzing. Thanks!
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post #3346 of 4742 Old 12-07-2018, 09:48 AM
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Buzzing sound usually means a grounding issue. From your description your SR6012 may not be grounded correctly. Please note that this might be an internal issue within the AVR. Is it still in warranty?

LG OLED65B6P TV, Marantz SR7012 AV receiver, Sony UBP-X700 Player, Klipsch F-30 speaker system
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post #3347 of 4742 Old 12-07-2018, 10:15 AM
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Buzzing sound usually means a grounding issue. From your description your SR6012 may not be grounded correctly. Please note that this might be an internal issue within the AVR. Is it still in warranty?
Yea it's definitely under warranty. I got it from AccessoriesForLess as a Refurb. I have 30 days with them to return it and a 1 year warranty with Marantz.
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post #3348 of 4742 Old 12-10-2018, 06:24 AM
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nr1509 height without feet

i am considering an NR1509 for a media dresser with a slot shelf opening of 4 inches

once in, there is a little more room, maybe half an inch or a little more

i am wondering if i can remove the NR1509 feet for set up and placement

i would then use some rubber feet for isolation and air space

can someone tell me how tall this unit is without the feet?

and can the feet be removed?

otherwise i will need to get the pioneer VSX-S520, but i would rather not

thanks!
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post #3349 of 4742 Old 12-10-2018, 06:36 AM
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i am considering an NR1509 for a media dresser with a slot shelf opening of 4 inches

once in, there is a little more room, maybe half an inch or a little more

i am wondering if i can remove the NR1509 feet for set up and placement

i would then use some rubber feet for isolation and air space

can someone tell me how tall this unit is without the feet?

and can the feet be removed?

otherwise i will need to get the pioneer VSX-S520, but i would rather not

thanks!
3 5/8", noting that all measurements are listed in the Owner's manual p. 229, although clearly insufficient ventilation above the AVR which should be at least 3-4" unless using a cooling fan placed on top of the unit to exhaust the warm air to the rear or front (eg. AC Infinity AIRCOM T8).
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post #3350 of 4742 Old 12-10-2018, 09:58 AM
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3 5/8", noting that all measurements are listed in the Owner's manual p. 229, although clearly insufficient ventilation above the AVR which should be at least 3-4" unless using a cooling fan placed on top of the unit to exhaust the warm air to the rear or front (eg. AC Infinity AIRCOM T8).
thanks!

3 5/8 inch sould be good

i missed that for some reason

i intend to run some fans out the back of the cabinet, and also, i don't intend to drive them that hard with Klipsch speaks all round
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post #3351 of 4742 Old 12-11-2018, 11:23 PM
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Hello friends, please help me to make a correct crossover settings, AVR Marantz SR7012 connected with fronts Focal Aria 936 and Subwoofer Dynaudio bm14 through XLR to RCA. My question is how to correct set crossover fronts + sub through marantz 7012? My current settings: front large 80hz, sub yes, lfe+main, lpf for lfe 250hz , crossover 80hz. Distance about 4m of all.
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post #3352 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony Zwid View Post
Hello friends, please help me to make a correct crossover settings, AVR Marantz SR7012 connected with fronts Focal Aria 936 and Subwoofer Dynaudio bm14 through XLR to RCA. My question is how to correct set crossover fronts + sub through marantz 7012? My current settings: front large 80hz, sub yes, lfe+main, lpf for lfe 250hz , crossover 80hz. Distance about 4m of all.
Were those settings made after running Audyssey MultEQ XT32? If not, then run Audyssey.

If yes, reset to the following in MANUAL SETUP:

Fronts = SMALL/80Hz
Sub = LFE
LPF for LFE = 120Hz (factory default setting which shouldn't be changed)
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post #3353 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 01:36 AM
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Ok. Audyssey MultEQ32 has already set before. Thanks for tip. I will do your advice.
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post #3354 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 02:07 AM
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I've set that, I need time to realize changes, but first time I feel more boomy than before.
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post #3355 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony Zwid View Post
I've set that, I need time to realize changes, but first time I feel more boomy than before.
Then simply lower the volume of the subwoofer a few dB to suit your preference. (MANUAL SETUP - SPEAKERS - LEVELS - TEST TONES - SUBWOOFER).
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post #3356 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 03:13 AM
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I've got it. Slightly make lower the sub'volume! Now settings are:
Small fronts 80hz
Sub - LFE, LPF - LFE 120hz
Sub level -1db
Fronts level -5db
Crossover for fronts 80hz individual
Selection the Speakers 2ch:
Settings - manual
Front - small
Sub - Yes / Mode - LFE
Crossover 120hz (that's right?)
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post #3357 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Oakley View Post
This may be my imagination but has anyone else who uses HEOS noticed a significant battery drain during usage? Battery stats on my phone inidicate it was the highest battery consumer at 30%, over a 2 hour period.

Scott
Although in the past (as I noted in my previous response to you), my Android phone noted 0% battery usage when I was using the HEOS app, after a recent update to the app, I am now getting warnings from my phone of high battery drain from the app.

So once I start the Pandora stream to my HEOS speakers, I stop the HEOS app and only start it again if I want to change stations or skip a song.
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post #3358 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Zwid View Post
I've got it. Slightly make lower the sub'volume! Now settings are:
Small fronts 80hz
Sub - LFE, LPF - LFE 120hz
Sub level -1db
Fronts level -5db
Crossover for fronts 80hz individual
Selection the Speakers 2ch:
Settings - manual
Front - small
Sub - Yes / Mode - LFE
Crossover 120hz (that's right?)
Set to 80Hz.
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post #3359 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 03:31 AM
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ОК. 80hz. Thanks for all 😉. Bless you. Cheers.
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post #3360 of 4742 Old 12-12-2018, 04:36 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Although in the past (as I noted in my previous response to you), my Android phone noted 0% battery usage when I was using the HEOS app, after a recent update to the app, I am now getting warnings from my phone of high battery drain from the app.

So once I start the Pandora stream to my HEOS speakers, I stop the HEOS app and only start it again if I want to change stations or skip a song.
JD, thanks for the follow-up. Yes, that is the behavior I was noticing although iOS didnt alert; I just noticed % battery decreasing faster than usual. So now,like you, I launch HEOS, choose my music source and then close HEOS, which helps. I still have the source showing (Spotify) and load songs, playlists, etc. There's something about having the HEOS app itself loaded that drains the battery.

Scott

Panasonic 2013 55VT60
Marantz SR-5012 AVR
B&W 805 Speakers
Velodyne 10" Sub
TiVO Premiere
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