*Official* Marantz 2017 NR1508/1608, SR5012/6012/7012 owner's thread - Page 159 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4741 of 4793 Old 09-14-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PG55 View Post
Hello,

I have added a second sub woofer to my system and added a wireless modem for the subs so I have more options with placement. My Marantz SR5012 has two sub outs and currently I have one running to the original sub and the other running to the wireless modem to sync with the new sub.

Question is does it matter if one 1 Sub is wired direct from the AVR to the sub and one is wired AVR to the modem. The modem has the ability to do both subs wireless. Will it work if I only use one sub out to the modem and run both subs wireless?

Currently I notice the sub that is wireless is lower in volume than the one direct to the AVR. That could be from the Sub EQ I used prior to Audyssey.

Thanks,

PG55
The sub pre-outs on the SR5012 are not independent as they are on the SR6012/SR7012/SR8012, but rather simply wired together via an internal "Y" splitter.
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post #4742 of 4793 Old 09-18-2019, 01:29 PM
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Marantz IR Extender Requirements (SR7012 and others)

The links below are all that you need to beef up the rather wimpy Marantz IR Sensor located on the front panel.
btw, The stock Marantz remote is also not powerful compared to my Harmony programmable. My room dictates that the AVR be oriented 90d to the screen. My former AVR had 0 issues capturing the IR sigs in this orientation. The Marantz...needed help.

There, quibbles aside. The SR 7012 is a very capable device surpassing my aged Onkyo TX-NR809 in many regards. The Audessey multi xt 32 processing worked very well in my smallish theater room. Set it up with the Atmos speakers in the ceiling and a larger sound stage is indeed heard. I like it. The dual Sub dedicated outputs really help too.
Three zones, Check.
Power enough? Check
Priced right? Check.. I always look for refurbs. Like a car with a few thousand on the clock..bugs? None

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


and


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I did not defeat the front sensor nor engage the back panel IR in. I just plugged these devices into their respective inlets and it worked. In truth, I did buy a longer IR receiver (Cable) that I needed for the run from the FP screen to the SR 7012.

Finding this data was difficult imo. Overly so. Marantz just said, any IR extender will work. Yet, a few dozen horror stories later from those that said it did not gave me pause. The Marantz Manual? iirc page 160 or 90...not clear.

Anyway,

I can now point the remote at the bride of 36 years and all functions work except mute.


All the best,
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post #4743 of 4793 Old 09-21-2019, 02:18 PM
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Anyone with a denon x4500 and a marantz 7012 can comment on music quality differences between the 2 ? Is the hdam that much better ? Can the marantz engage to e control with audessey or is it like the denon, has to turn off audessey to enable tone control ? Plz and thank you

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post #4744 of 4793 Old 09-21-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
Anyone with a denon x4500 and a marantz 7012 can comment on music quality differences between the 2 ? Is the hdam that much better ? Can the marantz engage to e control with audessey or is it like the denon, has to turn off audessey to enable tone control ? Plz and thank you
Not disable Audyssey, but rather both brands require Audyssey Dynamic EQ to be disabled to engage the Tone Control (Bass/Treble) settings.
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post #4745 of 4793 Old 09-21-2019, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
Anyone with a denon x4500 and a marantz 7012 can comment on music quality differences between the 2 ? Is the hdam that much better ? Can the marantz engage to e control with audessey or is it like the denon, has to turn off audessey to enable tone control ? Plz and thank you
Not disable Audyssey, but rather both brands require Audyssey Dynamic EQ to be disabled to engage the Tone Control (Bass/Treble) settings.
Yes jd that's exactly what I meant sir ,just curious JD what are u running a marantz or denon ?

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post #4746 of 4793 Old 09-21-2019, 11:39 PM
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Yes jd that's exactly what I meant sir ,just curious JD what are u running a marantz or denon ?
Denon as the majority of my listening is movies/TV.
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post #4747 of 4793 Old 09-22-2019, 03:50 PM
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I have a question about the SR6012 that I can't seem to find any answer. I've noticed that the SR6014 and the SR6014 mention this:Phono EQ Stage with HDAM. Does anyone know if the same feature can be found on the 6012? How effective is it? I have a 6012 in my theater and a NR1608 in my living room. I just bought a Fluance RT 85 for my living room set up and NR1608 doesn't have a phone input. I'm using a $40 phone preamp with it, but was looking to upgrade to a 1609, which has a phone pre-amp. That's when I saw the HDAM phono stage info on the 6014 and 6013. I'm thinking, If the 6012 does have it, I could get a 6013 or 6014 for the theater and move the 6012 to the living.

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post #4748 of 4793 Old 09-22-2019, 03:55 PM
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Cant answer your specific question but to my understanding a seperate phono stage outdoes the phono inputs on any reciever .. i use a seperate one for my TT even though my 7012 has one .. just my .02


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post #4749 of 4793 Old 09-22-2019, 04:28 PM
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I tried an external photo stage on my Carver C-5 preamplifier compared to the internal one and I couldn't tell one whit of a difference. I went back to using the internal one (saved an input). The external one is sitting in a box to this day. I doubt it's much different on my Marantz receivers. I'd rate the mythos right up there with high-end CD transports, high-end cable and green CD marker pens. If an amp or preamp is doing its job, it should not have an audible impact on the sound. Period. Cary magic vacuum tube amps getting rid of "harsh digital sound" or something like that? WHAT harsh digital sound? According to old fashioned audiophile groups, I'm simply deaf. Yet when asked to PROVE their claims with DBX test boxes, they claim the DBX boxes damage the tests somehow (as in magically make a $10k DAC sound EXACTLY like a $20 one? That IS magic!)

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)

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post #4750 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxker View Post
I have a question about the SR6012 that I can't seem to find any answer. I've noticed that the SR6014 and the SR6014 mention this:Phono EQ Stage with HDAM. Does anyone know if the same feature can be found on the 6012? How effective is it? I have a 6012 in my theater and a NR1608 in my living room. I just bought a Fluance RT 85 for my living room set up and NR1608 doesn't have a phone input. I'm using a $40 phone preamp with it, but was looking to upgrade to a 1609, which has a phone pre-amp. That's when I saw the HDAM phono stage info on the 6014 and 6013. I'm thinking, If the 6012 does have it, I could get a 6013 or 6014 for the theater and move the 6012 to the living.
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Cant answer your specific question but to my understanding a seperate phono stage outdoes the phono inputs on any reciever .. i use a seperate one for my TT even though my 7012 has one .. just my .02


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My experience tells me that not all external phono preamps are the same. Not all phono preamps faithfully follow the RIAA eq curve in general, and in particular not all phono preamps have both their channels follow the RIAA curve the same way because of parts variances, It would cost money (more than $40) to build a "technically good" one that ticks most of the boxes.
I, for one, can hear the tonal differences between the on-board phono preamp of a Marantz receiver and another one built specifically to follow faithfully the RIAA curve. Simulation of the receiver's on-board circuit with the parts used shows that it sounded like how the circuit should - tonally OFF.

But of course, your ears and your preferences are what must be satisfied.

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post #4751 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Fruit View Post
My experience tells me that not all external phono preamps are NOT the same. Not all phono preamps faithfully follow the RIAA eq curve in general, and in particular not all phono preamps have both their channels follow the RIAA curve the same way. It would cost money (more than $40) to build a "technically good" one that ticks most of the boxes.
I, for one, can hear the tonal differences between the on-board phono preamp of a Marantz receiver and another one built specifically to follow faithfully the RIAA curve. Simulation of the receiver's on-board circuit with the parts used shows that it sounded like how the circuit should - tonally OFF.

But of course, your ears and your preferences are what must be satisfied.
Funniest post today. I suppose you can hear a frog fart from a mile away as well. From the Marantz owner's manual:



(Notice from the specs that it is specifically built to follow the RIAA curve)

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post #4752 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 01:37 PM
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Funniest post today. I suppose you can hear a frog fart from a mile away as well. From the Marantz owner's manual:



(Notice from the specs that it is specifically built to follow the RIAA curve)

Attachment 2619266
I still remember the graph of the simulation - The figures quoted here agree with the simulation.
There is a bump of slightly more than 1db (+1db) on the mid-left and slightly more than 1db (-1db) dip on the right side of the graph.
This gives a total of more than 2 db error. This error of around 2db gives a tonal characteristic to all recordings played thru this phono-preamp that would be perceptible to people of normal hearing.

Given that this circuit is very sensitive to parts variations - some receiver specimens may behave better and some may behave worse.

The tonal characteristic due to this error may have been intentional on Marantz part. More people with less capable equipment might find those bumps and dips pleasant. But not for me.

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post #4753 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 02:12 PM
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I still remember the graph of the simulation - The figures quoted here agree with the simulation.
There is a bump of slightly more than 1db (+1db) on the mid-left and slightly more than 1db (-1db) dip on the right side of the graph.
This gives a total of more than 2 db error. This error of around 2db gives a tonal characteristic to all recordings played thru this phono-preamp that would be perceptible to people of normal hearing.

Given that this circuit is very sensitive to parts variations - some receiver specimens may behave better and some may behave worse.

The tonal characteristic due to this error may have been intentional on Marantz part.
The variation (not error) is 1 dB, not 2dB (1 dB variation from the norm at the left (bass) side of the graph has nothing to do with any variation on the right (treble) side of the graph). Normal people can only detect a change of 3 dB, and trained listeners can sometimes detect a 2 dB change, so regardless of your super hearing ability, an AVRs phono input is adequate for all people, and more than adequate for most people.
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More people with less expensive equipment might find those bumps and dips pleasant. But not for me.
As is typical for audiophools, you seem to snobbishly equate price with performance, and think you can hear the difference, while others can't. Good for you, Super Ear. More power to you.

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post #4754 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 02:22 PM
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Didnt mean to cause a stir. My comment was not something based on fact as i dont know. Was only the info/comments i heard on a seperate phono stage and receiver phono inputs.. one day ill just make a listening comparison between the phono stage im presently using and the recievers phono input and see if there is any type of audible difference


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post #4755 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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The variation (not error) is 1 dB, not 2dB (1 dB variation from the norm at the left (bass) side of the graph has nothing to do with any variation on the right (treble) side of the graph). Normal people can only detect a change of 3 dB, and trained listeners can sometimes detect a 2 dB change, so regardless of your super hearing ability, an AVRs phono input is adequate for all people, and more than adequate for most people. As is typical for audiophools, you seem to snobbishly equate price with performance, and think you can hear the difference. Good for you, Super Ear. More power to you.
I am not disputing that YOURS is adequate for YOU.

I do not equate price with performance, but most often one pays for what he gets. I just know the facts wit hregards to the on-board phono preamp. I also understand audio circuits intimately, so I am sharing those.
You should apologise for calling me an "audiophool" because I am not, but I forgive you simply because of of your ignorance.

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post #4756 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 02:52 PM
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I do not equate price with performance. I just know the facts. I also understand audio circuits intimately, so I am sharing those.
You should apologise for calling me an "audiophool" as I am not, but I forgive you simply because of of your ignorance.
The fact is, you're wrong. I too understand audio circuits, so you're not convincing me of anything. I also understand confirmation bias.

Re-read my post, as I did not call you anything. I only stated that you seemed to equate price and performance, as do most audiophools. If anything it is you who should apologize for stating that the cheaper equipment (that most in this thread own) is inferior. If that's not snobbish, you could have fooled me.

Even the best outboard phono preamps differ from the RIAA curve by some amount, so the difference between them and the Marantz is LESS than 1 dB. Tell me again how you're going to hear a .25 to .75 dB variation in sound level, especially over all the noise, wow, flutter, and distortion inherent in vinyl disc playback in the first place.

This is an AVR thread, let's get back on topic.

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post #4757 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 03:00 PM
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I unreservedly apologise for my snobbish statement that contains the fragment "less expensive equipment". That really was a snobbish way to say "less capable equipment".
Please accept my apologies. I have now edited my original post.

But one is definitely wrong in saying that the error is only 1 db, and is not ordinarily perceptible.
It is 1 db up (+1db) on one part of the spectrum and 1 db the other direction (-1db) on another part of the spectrum.
A total of 2 db difference. That's more than enough to color the tone of the recording. Some like it, I don't.
And the parts of the spectrum I am talking about are not far from the mid-point of normal freq range of normal hearing.

I am not saying whether the avr's phono preamp is adequate or not. That's for each customer to decide.

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post #4758 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruit View Post
I unreservedly apologise for my snobbish statement that contains the fragment "less expensive equipment". That really was a snobbish way to say "less capable equipment".
Please accept my apologies. I have now edited my original post.

But one is definitely wrong in saying that the error is only 1 db, and is not ordinarily perceptible.
It is 1 db up (+1db) on one part of the spectrum and 1 db the other direction (-1db) on another part of the spectrum.
A total of 2 db difference. That's more than enough to color the tone of the recording. Some like it, I don't.
And the parts of the spectrum I am talking about are not far from the mid-point of normal freq range of normal hearing.

I am not saying whether the avr's phono preamp is adequate or not. That's for each customer to decide.
-1 dB at 5000 Hz does NOT color the tone at 50 Hz or even 500 Hz, the higher tones do not sum or subtract from the lower tones, because they're different sounds. It's still 1 dB difference from RIAA, not 2 dB. So once again, you are wrong.

And again, a quality phono pre amp by any manufacturer varies from RIAA by some amount (typically .5 dB) so the difference between it and the Marantz is LESS than 1 dB, and you claim you can hear it. Guess what? Even if I had Super Ears like you, and could hear the .5 dB difference, it wouldn't be worth $200-$4,000 for 1/2 a dB difference.

If you really want to hear a difference, buy these https://www.thecableco.com/accessori...or-single.html

Save your nonsense for a different thread.
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post #4759 of 4793 Old 09-23-2019, 11:10 PM
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The phono preamps used in most name brand receivers these days are perfectly good and although I can't say I've seen carefully prepared measurements on all of them what I can say is that all that I have seen are excellent to stellar in regards to frequency response error into typical, standardized MM cartridge loads and often outdo their published specs.

Unfortunately finding measurements on them in 2019, decades after LP's heyday, is difficult, but what I have found to show as an example is the frequency response of an inexpensive stand alone phono preamp showing that "outstanding performance" is dirt cheap these days. Here is Stereophile's measurements of a $199 NAD phono preamp which according to NAD uses an identical circuit to their $129 stand alone unit called the PP2 [a simpler unit without extra digital features]. I wouldn't be surprised if it is exactly what they use in their receivers, integrated amps, and preamps with phono stages:


https://www.stereophile.com/images/a...010NADfig5.jpg

[left channel blue, right red]

As you can see, between the 20-20kHz standard range it is very, very flat, deviating only within a very narrow window of perhaps .25 or .3dB. To the ear this deviation would be inaudible to everyone.

Other brands may not be quite as good as this but even double this amount of error would still be inaudible.

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post #4760 of 4793 Old 09-24-2019, 01:55 PM
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A comparison: Marantz's specs Vs NAD's graph.
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post #4761 of 4793 Old 09-24-2019, 02:00 PM
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A comparison: Marantz's specs Vs NAD's graph.
NAD's deviation indeed stays within that +/- 1dB range so had this spec been their's, they have not lied.

Example: If I say I am between 5'5" and 6'5" and I'm actually 6' exactly, then my claim is true.

P.S. I generally avoid manufacturer's spec sheet claims in general. I prefer third party measurements by trusted parties.

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post #4762 of 4793 Old 09-24-2019, 02:06 PM
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Here's an example of an phono preamp found in an affordable ($450) Marantz integrated amp, PM5003, probably quite similar if not exactly what they use in receivers, measured by Stereophile. Between 20-20kHz it is not as good as the NAD but it's still quite good:


https://www.stereophile.com/images/a...10Marfig01.jpg

Although not perfect, the review describes the R ch as: "superbly flat".

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post #4763 of 4793 Old 09-24-2019, 02:37 PM
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NAD's deviation indeed stay within that +/- 1dB range so had this spec been their's they have not lied.

Example: If I say I am between 5'5" and 6'5" and I'm actually 5'10.5", then my claim is true.

P.S. I generally avoid manufacturer's spec sheet claims in general. I prefer third party measurements by trusted parties.
Yes, as I mentioned previously that my simulations agree with the specs that was posted. But why would a manufacturer publish a very poor specifications of +-1db deviation when every other can claim +-0.2db deviation?

I generally do not care much about manufacturers' specs either because these usually do not say much about how the products sound. Only when I detect/hear something OFF then I try to find out whether or not their specs explain it.
It's not much of a concern for me because I can modify these to make things right for me.

Last edited by Fruit; 09-24-2019 at 02:44 PM.
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post #4764 of 4793 Old 09-24-2019, 02:42 PM
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But why would a manufacturer publish a very poor specifications of +-1db deviation when every other can claim +-0.2db deviation?
Because people who prepare spec page copy are often technologically illiterate and are simply cutting and pasting from the previous series' manual.
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post #4765 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 07:01 AM
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Hello, there is here someone who had onkyo rz810/rz820/rz830/rz840 and now have marantz 70xx/80xx and can write something about quality sound?
thank you
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post #4766 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 07:25 AM
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My tx-nr809, very similar to your list.


Marantz 7012.


I like just about everything better in the Marantz. The Audessey multi xt32 WITH the two separate sub outs has tamed low freq bumps. Something the Onk just could not do probably because of the one sub output that I had to split for my dual sub scenario.


Voices and center channel clarity with the Marantz is also better, meaning more understandable. The ability to implement the "dynamic volume" during late night or wgas about theater reference, is a worthy feature. Yet turned off and viewing a film at nearly wot, the sound is just as clear albeit, really loud, so be prepared for that.


Yep, The Marantz kicked my trusty 809 to the curb. That plus it failed which it really never should have done but that is another story entirely.


Hope that helps
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post #4767 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 09:08 AM
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Thank you for this information BUT tx-nr809 was old something like ~2011y new series RZ this is totally different avr ~2015y this is why I asking for RZ8xx but thanks for this compare
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post #4768 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 10:34 AM
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Setting distance of 2 Sub Woofers

It has been suggested in the sub woofer threads that the distance function under speaker config-settings on the SR5012 allows for the sub 1 and 2 distances to be adjusted manually independent of each other. Can anyone confirm this as I cannot find it in the manual.

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post #4769 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 10:46 AM
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It has been suggested in the sub woofer threads that the distance function under speaker config-settings on the SR5012 allows for the sub 1 and 2 distances to be adjusted manually independent of each other. Can anyone confirm this as I cannot find it in the manual.

Thanks,
PG55
Not possible. Only models with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 also feature Audyssey Sub EQ HT (dual level/delay) which would be the SR6012 and SR7012 in this thread.
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post #4770 of 4793 Old 09-25-2019, 11:08 AM
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It has been suggested in the sub woofer threads that the distance function under speaker config-settings on the SR5012 allows for the sub 1 and 2 distances to be adjusted manually independent of each other. Can anyone confirm this as I cannot find it in the manual.
Unfortunately you don't have the Sub HT EQ feature jdsmoothie mentions above however there is a work around: connect sub "1" and run Audyssey. Write down its findings for distance and level. Now disconnect sub 1 and instead connect and then test sub 2. Write down those results. See the difference in results?

OK, now fiddle around with the sub 2's own volume level and phase knobs until the results for Sub 1 tests and Sub 2 tests are pretty close when retested. Assuming your sub goes no higher than 80Hz don't worry about distance discrepancies under 3.5 ft nor level differences under 3dB. Once your test runs eventually deliver results with differences smaller than I just mentioned, now you are ready for the final test where you leave the controls on Sub 2 at your new matching values, connect both subs, and redo the master test. [The AVR's resulting output level will likely fall 3dB or more since two subs are now working in phase with each other, which is good.] Done!
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Last edited by m. zillch; 09-25-2019 at 11:14 AM.
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