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post #541 of 10060 Old 11-23-2017, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Not really. You are basically telling everyone that the Arcam and other units based off it are broken, which they are not.
They are not exactly broken but they are useless in situations where one needs different crossover points for different speaker groups which is probably 95% of all cases.

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The bass management assymetry can be worked around.
What you are repeatedly missing is that most people don't have the knowledge to do so. It would require taking a multitude of measurements around the listening position using a multitude of different target curves and crossover settings (which can't be done with Arcam AVRs by the way). Then pick the best combination. Guess you're offering that as a service. I'm just offering a straight forward approach with DL that produces near perfect results without a tedious process and without additional costs.

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post #542 of 10060 Old 11-23-2017, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I have formed no opinion on the relative merits of the two units in question. I was quoting your response to another poster.
I've asked philipbtz what he considers "better" about the Arcam (which he didn't answer) but you implied it would be "sound quality". So much for having "formed no opinion"...

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In my line of work I need to trust my ears, and I have put the time into training them. I do not need blind evaluations to form an opinion about sound quality or evaluate a room for it's acoustic deficiencies.
The golden ear "I'm an expert" gem, "I know what I hear and what I hear applies to everybody else and is free of any bias whatsoever"
I've worked as a mixing engineer for years and I know exactly when to trust my ears and when to resort to something more reliable and useful namely measurements.
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post #543 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Ok, but have you (or anyone) heard both the Arcam, and the NAD? Preferably side by side?
Looking forward to your impressions as you're the only one owning both devices.

Who knows, Arcam might have applied special audiophile pixie dust that makes their gear sound superior despite major technical limitations in bass management
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post #544 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:09 AM
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Well, it'll come down to the DACs really. I'm using an external amp to remove that from the equation too

Had a quick listen to the NAD last night, I like. Will listen to the Arcam today and do some A-B-ing. Then will get my brother involved so I can get him to do some blind testing
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post #545 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Well, it'll come down to the DACs really. I'm using an external amp to remove that from the equation too

Had a quick listen to the NAD last night, I like. Will listen to the Arcam today and do some A-B-ing. Then will get my brother involved so I can get him to do some blind testing
Sure, might as well be pixie dust applied to the DACs
How have you set up both units for this test?

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post #546 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:20 AM
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Well, DACs definitely sound different, I know that much for sure
The fact that CD players can sound different is a ****in mystery to me though

Stereo, speakers set to large, playing a variety of music
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post #547 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Well, DACs definitely sound different, I know that much for sure
The fact that CD players can sound different is a ****in mystery to me though

Stereo, speakers set to large, playing a variety of music
So what's the player for each device? How is it connected to the AVR? How are the AVRs configured? How do you switch between AVRs?

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post #548 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:29 AM
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VLC Player, HDMI

Swap AVRs by swapping HDMI cable and swapping the RCA plugs at the power amp end

Actually, will install foobar with WASAPI (bit perfect) output...
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post #549 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
VLC Player, HDMI

Swap AVRs by swapping HDMI cable and swapping the RCA plugs at the power amp end

Actually, will install foobar with WASAPI (bit perfect) output...
That switch probably takes too long. It should be instant A/B.
How are the AVRs configured?

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post #550 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That switch probably takes too long. It should be instant A/B.
How are the AVRs configured?
Probably. Might be able to get ahold of a Phono splitter with buttons, that'd help with that part. Not much I can do about the HDMI cable bit though

Like I said, set to just stereo, left and right, set to large. No Dirac or anything

Will level match them too
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post #551 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They are not exactly broken but they are useless in situations where one needs different crossover points for different speaker groups which is probably 95% of all cases.







What you are repeatedly missing is that most people don't have the knowledge to do so. It would require taking a multitude of measurements around the listening position using a multitude of different target curves and crossover settings (which can't be done with Arcam AVRs by the way). Then pick the best combination. Guess you're offering that as a service. I'm just offering a straight forward approach with DL that produces near perfect results without a tedious process and without additional costs.

I agree with you that most people don't have the requisite knowledge.

Before running any automagic room correction you should have a good idea of how the various speakers and subs measure nearfield without the room's influence. Then you can make intelligent decisions about the target curves and the magnitude of boost and cuts applied.

Blindly flattening response an octave below crossover when the speaker? How many speakers are flat to 40?

No need to do what you suggest to work around asymmetrical bass management, just use an asymmetrical target curve with high pass leg using a 12dB/oct slope with FC at XO.

DL does a very good job, but still has limitations. One not very often discussed is how good it is at "full range" correction, when it is limited by the size of the measurement mic. The mic does not measure the room response correctly, even with a correction file applied due to mic directionality.


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post #552 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Well, it'll come down to the DACs really.
Sorry for the off-topic, but this thread is interesting: DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever.
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post #553 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post

Will level match them too
It's got to be precise too (within a .10dB), otherwise you'll hear very subtle differences in volume not as a volume difference, but as differences in sound character. It's just the nature of our hearing mechanism and an aspect which further helps cement the common false narrative of different dacs and amps having their own unique sound signatures.*

*Not including in this all the dacs and amps which purposefully have sound signatures, I'm talking the majority where accuracy to the incoming signal is a primary goal
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post #554 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 08:48 AM
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The golden ear "I'm an expert" gem, "I know what I hear and what I hear applies to everybody else and is free of any bias whatsoever"

I've worked as a mixing engineer for years and I know exactly when to trust my ears and when to resort to something more reliable and useful namely measurements.

I never said anything about lack of bias. I said I am confident in my hearing abilities. Many others are too...like you use your ears to judge how to EQ a recording-or do you use measurements to make all recording decisions and then use blind tests to allow evaluation of whether EQ1 or EQ2 is better?


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post #555 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
It's got to be precise too (within a .10dB), otherwise you'll hear very subtle differences in volume not as a volume difference, but as differences in sound character. It's just the nature of our hearing mechanism and an aspect which further helps cement the common false narrative of different dacs and amps having their own unique sound signatures.*

*Not including in this all the dacs and amps which purposefully have sound signatures, I'm talking the majority where accuracy to the incoming signal is a primary goal
.
Well, unfortunately the AVRs don't have that level of adjustment, so I got them as close as I could to each other.
So far (not blind tested) I'm seriously struggling to tell a difference between the two. The only conclusion I'm getting from this is: I love my speakers
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post #556 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 09:08 AM
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If we start discussing the merits of ABX and AB and blind testing we could easily devour another 50+ pages and not get anywhere...no point rehashing that discussion here.

Personally I'm going to accept the validity of both measurements and biased sighted hearing tests, and leave it at that.


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post #557 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 09:18 AM
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Yes, that approach better suits your professional interests.
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post #558 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 09:32 AM
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Yes, that approach better suits your professional interests.

No different than the enthusiast who can't afford a Datasat LS10 wanting to believe that his NAD 758 sounds identical. It's an unfortunate form of scientific reductionism based on simple assumptions (biases) that is all over AVS.

Obviously I work in the audio video industry so I'm a snake oil salesman right? Ha ha...
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post #559 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I agree with you that most people don't have the requisite knowledge.
Thanks for finally acknowledging that very fundamental fact.

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Before running any automagic room correction you should have a good idea of how the various speakers and subs measure nearfield without the room's influence. Then you can make intelligent decisions about the target curves and the magnitude of boost and cuts applied.
Below the Schroeder frequency this doesn't apply as the response is completely swamped by the room.

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Blindly flattening response an octave below crossover when the speaker? How many speakers are flat to 40?
Nobody said you should blindly follow something or someone. You don't seem to follow the discussion. Please read the link we're discussing.

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No need to do what you suggest to work around asymmetrical bass management, just use an asymmetrical target curve with high pass leg using a 12dB/oct slope with FC at XO.
If it only were that easy. There's this thing called phase response. You can't just draw a line in the target curve editor and expect a 12dB Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley or Bessel or... Furthermore the fundamental fact at the beginning of your post applies.

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DL does a very good job, but still has limitations. One not very often discussed is how good it is at "full range" correction, when it is limited by the size of the measurement mic. The mic does not measure the room response correctly, even with a correction file applied due to mic directionality.


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Mic size? Are you using a large diaphragm condenser mic? There's really not much to discuss as Dirac Research didn't disclose their tech. If you believe that correction should be limited to low frequencies then DL lets you do just that.

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post #560 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 10:30 AM
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I never said anything about lack of bias. I said I am confident in my hearing abilities.
So which one is it? Both can not be true at the same time.

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Many others are too...like you use your ears to judge how to EQ a recording-or do you use measurements to make all recording decisions and then use blind tests to allow evaluation of whether EQ1 or EQ2 is better?


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You're confusing sound creation with sound reproduction. The mother of all audiophool fallacies.

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post #561 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 10:37 AM
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No different than the enthusiast who can't afford a Datasat LS10 wanting to believe that his NAD 758 sounds identical. It's an unfortunate form of scientific reductionism based on simple assumptions (biases) that is all over AVS.

Obviously I work in the audio video industry so I'm a snake oil salesman right? Ha ha...
It's pretty naive to think price would be directly related to sound quality these days. There's a ton of proper blind tests that show the opposite. If it would be true then why don't we see manufacturers doing more (any!) ABX testing? Would be the number one killer argument.

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post #562 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 10:56 AM
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@markus767 please post for all a summed response for an assymetrical bass management filter like the one in the Arcam so all can see what magnitude of errors we are talking about in this endless back and forth...

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post #563 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
Well, unfortunately the AVRs don't have that level of adjustment, so I got them as close as I could to each other.
So far (not blind tested) I'm seriously struggling to tell a difference between the two. The only conclusion I'm getting from this is: I love my speakers
The speaker manufacturer! He has the magic pixie dust that makes every AVR, DAC or whatever electronics sound the same Or maybe there really is no significant difference between competently designed and bug free (unfortunately rather the exception than the rule) electronics these days? This would be very bad news for dealers that see their profits dwindle.

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post #564 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:07 AM
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@markus767 please post for all a summed response for an assymetrical bass management filter like the one in the Arcam so all can see what magnitude of errors we are talking about in this endless back and forth...
Discussed in the link I've posted. Are you telling me now that you've entered this discussion without reading it?

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post #565 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:10 AM
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Sorry for the off-topic, but this thread is interesting: DAC blind test: NO audible difference whatsoever.
Blasphemy!

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post #566 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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Discussed in the link I've posted. Are you telling me now that you've entered this discussion without reading it?
This one: https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-avr-crossover/ ?

It doesn't have anything in it related to my question.

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post #567 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:15 AM
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This one: https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-avr-crossover/ ?

It doesn't have anything in it related to my question.
You still haven't read it.

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post #568 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:26 AM
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You still haven't read it.
There's nothing in there beyond a portent of doom at the bottom "Some AVRs present a mixture of 6dB, 12dB or 24dB filters which can produce disastrous results"

I thought it might be useful for people to see what kind of magnitude of errors we are talking about with assymetrical bass management slopes. Certainly not "disastrous".

Anyway and regardless, my point of joining the discussion was to provide a counterbalance to your portents of doom and Arcam bashing.

Reality is:
1) that most people are fine using 80Hz crossovers all around and do not need flexibility to specify crossovers for individual channel groups independently
2) distortion introduced by assymetrical bass management slopes is low and in any event can be worked around

We agree and are on same page about symmetrical bass management slopes being ideal when using DL.

Maybe a more useful line of discussion for us all to have on the forum would be how to improve DL? At least that's a constructive addition. Maybe if anyone's inclined they can start another thread. We clearly have enough ammuition now from all the DL implementations we have seen and you have picked apart.

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post #569 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 11:49 AM
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There's nothing in there beyond a portent of doom at the bottom "Some AVRs present a mixture of 6dB, 12dB or 24dB filters which can produce disastrous results"

I thought it might be useful for people to see what kind of magnitude of errors we are talking about with assymetrical bass management slopes. Certainly not "disastrous".

Anyway and regardless, my point of joining the discussion was to provide a counterbalance to your portents of doom and Arcam bashing.
What I don't understand is why do you feel the need to defend Arcam from bashing (your words, not mine)? Arcam has done nothing to help themselves here, repeatedly talking with smoke and mirrors to stubbornly defend their product only to come back much later and reverse course only to screw that up as well.
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post #570 of 10060 Old 11-24-2017, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
There's nothing in there beyond a portent of doom at the bottom "Some AVRs present a mixture of 6dB, 12dB or 24dB filters which can produce disastrous results"

I thought it might be useful for people to see what kind of magnitude of errors we are talking about with assymetrical bass management slopes. Certainly not "disastrous".
You're assuming all AVRs would have the same bass management filters. That assumption is wrong. I've seen filters that haven't been inverted (it shouldn't be news to you that some require this) which results in a deep cancellation notch. Still doesn't qualify for "disastrous"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
]Anyway and regardless, my point of joining the discussion was to provide a counterbalance to your portents of doom and Arcam bashing.
I'm not bashing Arcam. Just stating the facts. They brought this upon themselves.

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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Reality is:
1) that most people are fine using 80Hz crossovers all around and do not need flexibility to specify crossovers for individual channel groups independently
Do you have data to support that claim? I have data that suggests the opposite. Happy to post exampkes next week when my Mac is back from repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
2) distortion introduced by assymetrical bass management slopes is low and in any event can be worked around
Again, not relevant to most people buying DL for AUTOMATED room correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
We agree and are on same page about symmetrical bass management slopes being ideal when using DL.
Please stop bashing Arcam and the upcoming Lexicon AVRs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Maybe a more useful line of discussion for us all to have on the forum would be how to improve DL? At least that's a constructive addition. Maybe if anyone's inclined they can start another thread. We clearly have enough ammuition now from all the DL implementations we have seen and you have picked apart.
There's not much to discuss. Any room correction should also optimize the crossover region between subs and sats. I've stated this numerous times. But this would require the room correction code to integrate with bass management. You tell me why this hasn't happened yet. Audyssey had this sketched out years ago.
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Last edited by markus767; 11-24-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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