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post #31 of 9064 Old 10-24-2017, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Still haven't received my unit. Dealer says tomorrow or the day after...
I got mine and gave up after an afternoon. It was soooooo buggy. It kept changing the overhead speaker designations, flickering with different HDMI cables and sources, constantly losing the network connection, and more.

I'm sure you will be much more patient.
Maybe you have a defective unit.
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post #32 of 9064 Old 10-24-2017, 05:19 PM
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The flickering HDMI has started on mine. If I turn the unit off and on it will work without flickering for a long while before it begins again.

I have a ticket open with NAD and they are investigating the issues with different resolutions as well as the 4k60 issue. Initial pushback was due to me using a 25ft 22awg cable, which is well above the suggested standards and has worked with 100% reliability in the past on a marantz unit.

This definitely seems to be some kind of hdmi firmware issue. They are being very responsive via support, so I hope we can get this solved ASAP.

BTW I will finally share my rew MDATs tomorrow. Been busy unfortunately, but the sound is quite nice.
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post #33 of 9064 Old 10-25-2017, 08:12 AM
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The flickering HDMI has started on mine. If I turn the unit off and on it will work without flickering for a long while before it begins again.

I have a ticket open with NAD and they are investigating the issues with different resolutions as well as the 4k60 issue. Initial pushback was due to me using a 25ft 22awg cable, which is well above the suggested standards and has worked with 100% reliability in the past on a marantz unit.

This definitely seems to be some kind of hdmi firmware issue. They are being very responsive via support, so I hope we can get this solved ASAP.

BTW I will finally share my rew MDATs tomorrow. Been busy unfortunately, but the sound is quite nice.
Thank you Scot. Sounds like NAD is actively working the issues, which is a very good sign.

I am looking forward to hearing about the DIRAC implementation and glad to know you like the sound.
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post #34 of 9064 Old 10-25-2017, 03:14 PM
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The flickering HDMI has started on mine. If I turn the unit off and on it will work without flickering for a long while before it begins again.

I have a ticket open with NAD and they are investigating the issues with different resolutions as well as the 4k60 issue. Initial pushback was due to me using a 25ft 22awg cable, which is well above the suggested standards and has worked with 100% reliability in the past on a marantz unit.

This definitely seems to be some kind of hdmi firmware issue. They are being very responsive via support, so I hope we can get this solved ASAP
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Thank you Scot. Sounds like NAD is actively working the issues, which is a very good sign
this scenario feels very similiar to when I first test-ran my new NAD T175 surround processor years back (1rst-generation HDMI product release). There were HDMI audio (codec) and some video processing issues. Many experienced random, dangerous, extreme loud audible "popping" sound, due to transients (apparently a muting issue on audio PCB), etc.,...Some units required hardware updates/changes (swapped HDMI PCB's) , some only firmware. There was a particular NAD engineer/technician (can't remember his name) who ultimately was very responsive to our product failures & concerns. He enabled me to get my unit issues sorted-out (with mostly firmware updates), thereafter it operated fairly solid for a few years. So, I'm pretty confident NAD will get things right with your new processor- they have to.

I'm curious what results you get when using a shorter (more conventional) size HDMI cable? (just for testing purposes)

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post #35 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 03:00 AM
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It's finally here. 15.5kg:



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post #36 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 03:08 AM
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3 fans on the bottom:

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post #37 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 05:15 AM
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Seriously?





Mic can be mounted on a tripod and cable length is 5.5m which is good. The calibration file looks suspiciously flat though. Will compare to a UMIK-1 at a later date.
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post #38 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 06:59 AM
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Basic check of bass management didn't reveal any major issues. Crossover frequencies can be selected independently for speaker (pairs) from 40Hz up to 200Hz in 10Hz increments. Here's 40, 90, 100, 110, 200Hz:



These filters are 24dB Linkwitz-Riley. Finally a manufacturer that got it right!

The sub preamp out seems to be about 5dB lower than the other preamp outputs (so are the 4 preamp outputs of the MDC module). The LPF for the LFE seems to be too low:



The 758v3 offers 3 Dirac Live filter slots:



@flax By the way it's pretty easy to make this DL LE version to behave like the full version

So couple of things to report to NAD support. Other than that this seems to be the 11.1 channel Dirac Live AVR everybody has been waiting for.
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post #39 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 09:42 AM
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@flax By the way it's pretty easy to make this DL LE version to behave like the full version [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com//forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Mine is arriving on Monday.

Could you elaborate on this at all?

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post #40 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 09:45 AM
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*sigh* Is there some kind of competition between manufacturers who finds the most creative way of f***ing up Dirac Live? Unlike Arcam's previous implementation where the DL test signal went through BM, NAD simply applies DL filters before redirecting low frequencies to the sub.

Here's 2 examples directly measured at the preamp out. Low and high pass are correctly applied but the underlying filter curve in the satellite channel and the sub channel is the same:



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post #41 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:00 AM
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Mine is arriving on Monday.

Could you elaborate on this at all?
I could but then Dirac Research's sales for the full version would go to zero. Not sure this is what they want

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post #42 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:21 AM
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It's finally here. 15.5kg
very cool, thanks for posting these shots. I'll always love the NAD "minimalist" industrial design. Clean.

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For on-board amp's? Transformers (torroids)? Pre-amp boards?

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Crossover frequencies can be selected independently for speaker (pairs) from 40Hz up to 200Hz in 10Hz increments. Here's 40, 90, 100, 110, 200Hz
this is good

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*sigh* Is there some kind of competition between manufacturers who finds the most creative way of f***ing up Dirac Live? NAD simply applies DL filters before redirecting low frequencies to the sub
are these NAD's so-called "custom curves"?
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post #43 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:39 AM
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are these NAD's so-called "custom curves"?
I wish. It's just a big fat and ugly bug. Just like Arcam and others before they sell devices that haven't been sufficiently tested.
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post #44 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:40 AM
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*sigh* Is there some kind of competition between manufacturers who finds the most creative way of f***ing up Dirac Live? Unlike Arcam's previous implementation where the DL test signal went through BM, NAD simply applies DL filters before redirecting low frequencies to the sub.

Here's 2 examples directly measured at the preamp out. Low and high pass are correctly applied but the underlying filter curve in the satellite channel and the sub channel is the same.
For someone with less technical knowledge on these things can you explain what this means a bit more?

Are you saying that the Dirac Live stuff doesn't effect the sub or rear speakers and only the front and center ones?

How does this play out in real life? Is there still a positive or net positive effect?

Mine showed up yesterday. I did all of the software updates but haven't had a chance to hook anything up yet because my AV room is a construction site at the moment.

Agree with the chintzy as heck BluOS module though. It'll spend all of it's time hidden away in a cabinet so it doesn't really matter, but still...

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post #45 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:47 AM
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For someone with less technical knowledge on these things can you explain what this means a bit more?

Are you saying that the Dirac Live stuff doesn't effect the sub or rear speakers and only the front and center ones?

How does this play out in real life? Is there still a positive or net positive effect?
For example, the filter that is designed to correct the left speaker's room response is applied to the subwoofer. The filter designed for the subwoofer isn't used at all. The wrong filter is applied to the sub. The result is distortion. Most people probably won't notice because the spectral distortion added by the room is simply changed by a different kind of spectral distortion.
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post #46 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:50 AM
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For example, the filter that is designed to correct the left speaker's room response is applied to the subwoofer. The filter designed for the subwoofer isn't used at all. The wrong filter is applied. The result is distortion. Most people probably won't notice because the spectral distortion added by the room is simply changed by a different kind of spectral distortion.
Ah, so filters get applied to the wrong speaker. Haha, well that seems f'ed up. Also seems like it should be easy enough for NAD to fix too though.

My NAD T 747 was buggy as heck at first too. Sad we always have to go through that with NAD but I love the sound so I live with it.
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post #47 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 10:56 AM
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they sell devices that haven't been sufficiently tested
you're right there
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post #48 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 11:33 AM
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*sigh* Is there some kind of competition between manufacturers who finds the most creative way of f***ing up Dirac Live? Unlike Arcam's previous implementation where the DL test signal went through BM, NAD simply applies DL filters before redirecting low frequencies to the sub.
Thanks, Markus, for giving NAD a short and sharing your feedback with us. Just to be more clear on the finding:

1) Does it mean, that the derived filter for L is applied for both L (full range, as if NAD is not aware of BM engaged) and the Sub (as if Sub is part of those full range L) ? So eventually Sub filter itself is applied only for .1 channel data?

2) Meantime, do test signals are properly implemented and each speaker is measured as full range? So eventually target curves are correct, but due to 1), lower end of the filter for satellite (L, R, C or whatsoever) is applied to the sub

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post #49 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 11:44 AM
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Ah, so filters get applied to the wrong speaker. Haha, well that seems f'ed up. Also seems like it should be easy enough for NAD to fix too though.
That's quite simplified conclusion. The problem seems to be in where DL filters are sitting in the chain of signal processing, rather than in simple assignments to the channels. It took Arcam almost a year and several firmware updates to fix it at least to the level, when it can be used, though still with certain workarounds (test tones are still implemented with BM engaged, while shall be running as for full range speakers).

Hope NAD can sort it out faster. May be their engineers can read few posts by Markus in Arcam thread finally and do it right on the first try )
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post #50 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 11:51 AM
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Well, I was trying to understand it in a simplified way since I'm far from a sound engineer.

Equally hopeful that NAD gets around to fixing it more quickly. It's not a make or break feature for me as I was already quite pleased with my much simpler T 747 but it was something I was looking forward to after reading some reviews of Dirac Live in other products.
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post #51 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 12:07 PM
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Thanks, Markus, for giving NAD a short and sharing your feedback with us. Just to be more clear on the finding:

1) Does it mean, that the derived filter for L is applied for both L (full range, as if NAD is not aware of BM engaged) and the Sub (as if Sub is part of those full range L) ? So eventually Sub filter itself is applied only for .1 channel data?
Correct. BM works fine and each satellite speaker gets its own filter. Just the sub doesn't.
You're right, the sub filter gets only applied to the LFE channel.

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2) Meantime, do test signals are properly implemented and each speaker is measured as full range? So eventually target curves are correct, but due to 1), lower end of the filter for satellite (L, R, C or whatsoever) is applied to the sub
Didn't test this thoroughly but the DL test signal seems to be applied correctly, i.e. BM is "off" and each speaker is measured full range.

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post #52 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 12:30 PM
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Here's an illustration what the NAD probably does right now:



It should work like this though:

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post #53 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 12:40 PM
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Here's an illustration what the NAD probably does right now:



It should work like this though:

Awesome, flow charts. Thanks, that cleared things up for me immensely.
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post #54 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 12:45 PM
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Here's an illustration what the NAD probably does right now:

Just wondering ain't it the same as Arcam had until they've finally implemented it downstream of BM? Set aside HPF/LPF hiccups.
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post #55 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 12:49 PM
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thanks for your graphics markus, a big help!
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post #56 of 9064 Old 10-27-2017, 01:46 PM
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Just wondering ain't it the same as Arcam had until they've finally implemented it downstream of BM? Set aside HPF/LPF hiccups.
They had the DL test signal originate from that location. The NAD doesn't.

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post #57 of 9064 Old 10-28-2017, 12:59 AM
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Not sure this is what they want
Yes Markus... that's not what we want

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post #58 of 9064 Old 10-28-2017, 01:06 AM
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Yes Markus, that's not what we want

Flavio
Well, then better update your software real quick because I'm sure that someone else will find out pretty soon how to circumvent the 500Hz limit without my input. It's trivial.
While you're at it you also might want to fix a rather cosmetic bug:

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post #59 of 9064 Old 10-28-2017, 02:15 AM
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4 of my 5 support requests/bug reports at https://support.nadelectronics.com have been marked as "solved" by "Jackie" although I didn't get any response. I did reopen them...

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post #60 of 9064 Old 10-28-2017, 12:45 PM
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4 of my 5 support requests/bug reports at https://support.nadelectronics.com have been marked as "solved" by "Jackie" although I didn't get any response. I did reopen them...
Would be great if you would share your 5 requests and NAD's responses as they come.
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