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post #9211 of 9906 Old 08-09-2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I control gain with it attatched to NAD...doesn’t make a difference..
I also do REW measurements afterward, so may as well connect to the laptop.
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post #9212 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I control gain with it attatched to NAD...doesn’️t make a difference..
I also do REW measurements afterward, so may as well connect to the laptop.
If you don’t mind me asking, what REW measurements exactly do you do/test for post DIRAC? I am relatively NOOB to REW and just getting my feet wet...any help is appreciated thanks!

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post #9213 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 12:11 PM
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I know any change to sub TRIM will change the levels and make DIRAC not accurate anymore but I am wondering if changing the sub GAIN on my dual subs post DIRAC will still make the room correction accurate or if that also changes it not for the better.

I have presets already but wondered if changing sub gain on the fly results in same room correction but more deep bass...?

Also, I just played around with my NADs setting and found enhanced stereo has WAAAY more bass and volume then even the Dolby upscale/DSU and obviously stereo as well...is this ok if I’ve already set a Dirac slot with increase house curve for bass? Any chance of blowing anything?

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post #9214 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 12:43 PM
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Height top/rear to Dolby enabled front/rear

I’m almost there...finally got a new NAD receiver and everything works fine now... but I noticed twice sound was not so precise...went to setup menu and noticed that Dirac was switched off “because speaker config has changed”

Each time, height channels are changed from top front/rear to Dolby enabled front/rear.

Whyyyyy??

For sure I didn’t change that. Is there a button on the remote control which I might have accidently pushed or so?
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post #9215 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
If you don’t mind me asking, what REW measurements exactly do you do/test for post DIRAC? I am relatively NOOB to REW and just getting my feet wet...any help is appreciated thanks!
To blend the subs with the speakers and to confirm overall freq. response. Remember, the Dirac software only shows you the predicted result. In my experience it's not that accurate.

So, 15 Hz - 20 kHz sweeps, changing crossover points, and re-measuring.

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post #9216 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
If you don’️t mind me asking, what REW measurements exactly do you do/test for post DIRAC? I am relatively NOOB to REW and just getting my feet wet...any help is appreciated thanks!
To blend the subs with the speakers and to confirm overall freq. response. Remember, the Dirac software only shows you the predicted result. In my experience it's not that accurate.

So, 15 Hz - 20 kHz sweeps, changing crossover points, and re-measuring.
Ok-I thought doing REW we and MiniDSP sub calibration was BEFORE Dirac. But you are saying do REW AFTER? Doesn’t that change the DIRAC calibration then if you go ahead and change something at that time?

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post #9217 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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I'm not creating filters and doing EQ with REW - I am using it for measurement only. It's needed to dial in the subs, especially the crossover point.

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post #9218 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Remember, the Dirac software only shows you the predicted result. In my experience it's not that accurate.
Markus confirmed that Dirac is indeed accurate.
But, don't forget that when you use Dirac, you take several measures, so in order to have an exact Dirac vs "REW" match, you would need to measure in the exact same places, and average them.

Nevertheless, you can check it easily: Take a single measure for Dirac calibration, and use REW to measure in the same exact point.

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post #9219 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ok-I thought doing REW we and MiniDSP sub calibration was BEFORE Dirac. But you are saying do REW AFTER? Doesn’t that change the DIRAC calibration then if you go ahead and change something at that time?
Correct, first REW => MiniDsp sub calibration, at least when you have more than 1 sub.
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post #9220 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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Markus confirmed that Dirac is indeed accurate.
But, don't forget that when you use Dirac, you take several measures, so in order to have an exact Dirac vs "REW" match, you would need to measure in the exact same places, and average them.

Nevertheless, you can check it easily: Take a single measure for Dirac calibration, and use REW to measure in the same exact point.
My REW measurements show considerable differences from the predicted Dirac graphs, especially from my subs.

Point noted on the single vs multi measurements. But that wasn't enough to explain why my predicted sub boost simply wasn't there.

But my point was you still need to measure and tweak your crossover.

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post #9221 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 05:55 PM
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That’s weird that one person says the Dirac is accurate and one says it is not...

Anyways, what do you mean set the crossover of the sub? So, if I’ve done REW-PEQ-MiniDSP for dual subs then DIRAC...what about the dual sub do I change or look at for crossover? I thought crossovers were for speakers and I just set all mine at 80 except in ceiling at 90.

What am I missing here if you don’t mind me asking

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post #9222 of 9906 Old 08-10-2019, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
That’s weird that one person says the Dirac is accurate and one says it is not...

Anyways, what do you mean set the crossover of the sub? So, if I’ve done REW-PEQ-MiniDSP for dual subs then DIRAC...what about the dual sub do I change or look at for crossover? I thought crossovers were for speakers and I just set all mine at 80 except in ceiling at 90.

What am I missing here if you don’t mind me asking
We are talking about the same thing - the crossover between speakers and subs.

The ideal point is chosen to achieve the smoothest blend, and we need to measure to find it.

It may be that most of the difference you'll see between a REW sweep and the predicted Dirac result is the fact that you are only measuring a single point with REW. However I'm not convinced that Dirac can predict FR perfectly, and the "prediction" is always fantastically smooth...almost too perfect.

We would have to do a single-point calibration to compare, which I haven't done.

But the biggest deviation I saw was the bass boost I dialed in. It simply did not materialize in real life, yet Dirac predicted it would be there. I do not know why. And I was not short on sub headroom.

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post #9223 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 02:19 AM
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But the biggest deviation I saw was the bass boost I dialed in. It simply did not materialize in real life, yet Dirac predicted it would be there. I do not know why. And I was not short on sub headroom.[/QUOTE]

Same here. I found that Dirac was setting the sub 10db too low to match the mains below crossover. I could see this with Rew with the mains setup as large compared to setup as small. Simple answer : turn the sub up.
I read somewhere that some receivers add 10db to the LFE channel and wondered if that was confusing the Dirac process.

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post #9224 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 04:18 AM
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But the biggest deviation I saw was the bass boost I dialed in. It simply did not materialize in real life, yet Dirac predicted it would be there. I do not know why. And I was not short on sub headroom.
Same here. I found that Dirac was setting the sub 10db too low to match the mains below crossover. I could see this with Rew with the mains setup as large compared to setup as small. Simple answer : turn the sub up.
I read somewhere that some receivers add 10db to the LFE channel and wondered if that was confusing the Dirac process.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

His all goes back to my initial question from yesterday that was not answered:

When someone changes the sub TRIM post Dirac I believe it changes all the levels and makes the Dirac correction not accurate any more BUT
If one changes the sub GAIN post Dirac (even if dual subs) does this allow the Dirac calibration to still be accurate but have more bass boost on top of the Dirac filters that were applied to a slot on the NAD?

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post #9225 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 06:32 AM
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Point noted on the single vs multi measurements. But that wasn't enough to explain why my predicted sub boost simply wasn't there.
Why don't you try a single measure? Its easy to check.
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post #9226 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 08:41 AM
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A quick way to get a multi point measurement in Rew is to use RTA instead of a sweep: use Rew to generate full range pink periodic noise and set rta averaging to forever. Whilst measuring slowly move the microphone around the area that was used to calibrate Dirac.
Single point sweeps can vary a lot from location to location down in the sub frequency range.
Just to clarify, when I said turn the sub up, I meant I turned up the sub's own amp - not the NAD trim levels. This didn't seem to mess with any calibration other than to fix the frequency response when the mains are set to Small.

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post #9227 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 09:08 AM
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Having said that about single point measurements, I found one I saved. You can see that below the crossover the level falls away. Turning the sub up 10db brought the small traces back in line with the large. Although I never saved the result.Click image for larger version

Name:	sub level.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	50.4 KB
ID:	2601756

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post #9228 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I know any change to sub TRIM will change the levels and make DIRAC not accurate anymore but I am wondering if changing the sub GAIN on my dual subs post DIRAC will still make the room correction accurate or if that also changes it not for the better.

I have presets already but wondered if changing sub gain on the fly results in same room correction but more deep bass...?

Also, I just played around with my NADs setting and found enhanced stereo has WAAAY more bass and volume then even the Dolby upscale/DSU and obviously stereo as well...is this ok if I’ve already set a Dirac slot with increase house curve for bass? Any chance of blowing anything?
Anyone?

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post #9229 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyone?
I believe this was asked and answered before. Unless I'm missing something, you can't change any levels in the AVR once a Dirac project is loaded. I had to resort to increasing sub gain. I don't think this has any negative effects on the calibration unless your sub has DSP and increases levels in a nonlinear way (all frequencies not adjusting by the same amount).

Don't know about the DSU, haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

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post #9230 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 09:49 AM
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Having said that about single point measurements, I found one I saved. You can see that below the crossover the level falls away. Turning the sub up 10db brought the small traces back in line with the large. Although I never saved the result.Attachment 2601756
That is one heck of a ski ramp.
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post #9231 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 10:36 AM
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Having said that about single point measurements, I found one I saved. You can see that below the crossover the level falls away. Turning the sub up 10db brought the small traces back in line with the large. Although I never saved the result.Attachment 2601756

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So are you saying in my case that I have the standard flat Dirac curve I may want to turn both my subs up by -8 to -10 on the sub itself? If Dirac had my sub gains on the dual at -12 when I did the calibration to get it into the green I should then put the subs about -4 or -2 and that would be a better result?

I’m also guessing that this only applies for the standard Dirac flat curve and NOT the room feel one that boosts the lower freqencies more already

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post #9232 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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That is one heck of a ski ramp.
Lol. Yes I know, I was using a very bass heavy target curve at the time. Not sure why, perhaps I was trying to compensate for that fall off below the crossover. Once I turned the sub gain up I calmed down a bit and am using a more normal target curve now.

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post #9233 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 10:51 AM
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So are you saying in my case that I have the standard flat Dirac curve I may want to turn both my subs up by -8 to -10 on the sub itself? If Dirac had my sub gains on the dual at -12 when I did the calibration to get it into the green I should then put the subs about -4 or -2 and that would be a better result?

I’m also guessing that this only applies for the standard Dirac flat curve and NOT the room feel one that boosts the lower freqencies more already
YMMV but what you say worked for me whichever target curve I used.
At one point I tried editing the sub's curve to be a higher gain than the mains but Dirac just made the trim lower to offset it! So I went back to using same target curve for all speakers and simply turning up the gain on the sub itself after the calibration.

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post #9234 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
So are you saying in my case that I have the standard flat Dirac curve I may want to turn both my subs up by -8 to -10 on the sub itself? If Dirac had my sub gains on the dual at -12 when I did the calibration to get it into the green I should then put the subs about -4 or -2 and that would be a better result?

I’️m also guessing that this only applies for the standard Dirac flat curve and NOT the room feel one that boosts the lower freqencies more already
YMMV but what you say worked for me whichever target curve I used.
At one point I tried editing the sub's curve to be a higher gain than the mains but Dirac just made the trim lower to offset it! So I went back to using same target curve for all speakers and simply turning up the gain on the sub itself after the calibration.

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Kind of sounds like you could have just saved time nd put in the room feel curve on one of the Dirac slots...

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post #9235 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 11:29 AM
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Does anyone know if using enhanced stereo essentially makes your front mains large instead of small since it says in the manual that it used all speakers on full power to make sound louder?

If I already have 2 subs in a 5.1.4 and speakers therefore set to small would t enhance stereo setting screw up the acuracy if the fronts or other speakers are not using a crossover to send things to the sub and could one wreck speakers because of this?

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post #9236 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 11:36 AM
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At one point I tried editing the sub's curve to be a higher gain than the mains but Dirac just made the trim lower to offset it! So I went back to using same target curve for all speakers and simply turning up the gain on the sub itself after the calibration.
Hmm, maybe that is what is happening. I did the same - I wasn't getting nearly enough from the subs, so I implemented a sharp ski ramp, using all 10dB of allowed range. Even lowered the mains a few dB.

REW sweep still showed a mostly flat response.

At no point did Dirac tell me that it wasn't going to honor my curve. It even predicted the ramp would be there.

The takeaway would then be, Dirac does not strictly respect your target curve, at least when it comes to subs.

@Molon_Labe could this explain our bass troubles with Dirac?

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YMMV but what you say worked for me whichever target curve I used.
At one point I tried editing the sub's curve to be a higher gain than the mains but Dirac just made the trim lower to offset it! So I went back to using same target curve for all speakers and simply turning up the gain on the sub itself after the calibration.

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the exact thing happened to! Thanks for bringing this up. I will no re-calibrate and turn my sub gain down to -20 before Dirac calibration and then increase the gain until I'm satisfied

I now use a insanely bass heavy target curve (+21db 10-50hz) and Dirac just increase mains trim and decrease sub trims

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post #9238 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 11:45 AM
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Why has this taken several years to be figured out? I'm at a loss.

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the exact thing happened to! Thanks for bringing this up. I will no re-calibrate and turn my sub gain down to -20 before Dirac calibration and then increase the gain until I'm satisfied

I now use a insanely bass heavy target curve (+21db 10-50hz) and Dirac just increase mains trim and decrease sub trims
The only issue is that, as often happened with Audyssey, increasing the subs left a stair-step down to the midbass. So make sure you have a rise from about 150Hz on down to meet your subs.

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Hmm, maybe that is what is happening. I did the same - I wasn't getting nearly enough from the subs, so I implemented a sharp ski ramp, using all 10dB of allowed range. Even lowered the mains a few dB.

REW sweep still showed a mostly flat response.

At no point did Dirac tell me that it wasn't going to honor my curve. It even predicted the ramp would be there.

The takeaway would then be, Dirac does not strictly respect your target curve, at least when it comes to subs.

@Molon_Labe could this explain our bass troubles with Dirac?
This is the only time I'm a bit upset with Dirac. It obviously doesn't honor our target curves

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post #9240 of 9906 Old 08-11-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph73 View Post
At one point I tried editing the sub's curve to be a higher gain than the mains but Dirac just made the trim lower to offset it! So I went back to using same target curve for all speakers and simply turning up the gain on the sub itself after the calibration.
Hmm, maybe that is what is happening. I did the same - I wasn't getting nearly enough from the subs, so I implemented a sharp ski ramp, using all 10dB of allowed range. Even lowered the mains a few dB.

REW sweep still showed a mostly flat response.

At no point did Dirac tell me that it wasn't going to honor my curve. It even predicted the ramp would be there.

The takeaway would then be, Dirac does not strictly respect your target curve, at least when it comes to subs.

@Molon_Labe could this explain our bass troubles with Dirac?
Except that when you do a room feel curve which is a form of ski ramp vs flat the bass is substantially stronger/louder then flat curve so I can’t see how it’s a problem. They sound very very different so it would not be the case if Dirac went ahead and lowered the sub setting after adding a room feel target

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