Which external amp for Denon x4300H - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 44 Old 07-23-2017, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Please help with my HT setup!!!

I currently have a Yamaha Aventage 1060 receiver but I don't think it will work for my HT system. I have Klipsch RP-280F for LR and the RP-450 center. I also have the RP-160 for the side surrounds and a pair of cheap energy micro for the rear surrounds. I just ordered 2 pairs of the RP-140SA atmos speakers so that would put me at 7.1.4 atmos layout. With this configuration, I was thinking of buying the Denon x4300H receiver plus a cheap 2 channel external amp (Dayton) to drive either the rear surrounds or a pair of the atmos speakers and call it a day.

But I also have a pair of patio ceiling Polk speakers so I don't know how to drive those since the Denon HT system will be using all 11 channels.

So do I buy a 5 channel external amp like an Outlaw 5000 to drive the LCR and side surrounds (total 5 speakers) and have the Denon drive the rear surrounds and both pairs of the atmos speakers in addition to the patio speakers (total 8 speakers). Is this configuration doable?

Or is there another way to drive the outside patio speakers?

Last edited by erlo; 07-23-2017 at 09:11 PM.
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post #2 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 01:48 AM
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You'll need an additional 2CH amp to drive the outdoor speakers using either the Zone 2 or Zone 3 pre-outs.

Also note the X4300H is discussed in the 2016 Denon AVR Owner's thread ....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...hread-faq.html
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post #3 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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So are you saying that I would need to get TWO separate 2 channel amps (1 to drive a pair of atmos speakers and 1 to drive the outdoor speakers?)
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post #4 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by erlo View Post
So do I buy a 5 channel external amp like an Outlaw 5000 to drive the LCR and side surrounds (total 5 speakers) and have the Denon drive the rear surrounds and both pairs of the atmos speakers in addition to the patio speakers (total 8 speakers). Is this configuration doable?

Or is there another way to drive the outside patio speakers?
I don't know if that's doable, but one thing that is is running your LCR through the outlaw, and also the patio speakers, you would connect those to the Zone 2 or 3 RCA outs. The Denon would drive all the surrounds and Atmos.

Spoiler!
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post #5 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 07:20 AM
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So are you saying that I would need to get TWO separate 2 channel amps (1 to drive a pair of atmos speakers and 1 to drive the outdoor speakers?)
Correct, or some other combination to drive 4 external speakers (eg. 5 CH amp).
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post #6 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 10:02 AM
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I have the Denon 4300H, got it over the 6300 JUST because I knew adding the Outlaw 5000 would make it better for around the same price. I received my Outlaw a few weeks ago. It is HUGE, being around 15 pounds heavier than the Denon, but I love it. I use it for my Left, Center, and Right fronts. I have my Denon running my side surrounds, rear surrounds, and four atmos/overhead speakers. So my Outlaw is running 3, and my Denon is running 8. It works flawlessly. Feel free to ask me any questions.
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post #7 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Drakdaddy,

If your Denon is running the 8 channels, then will it have the ability to run a zone 2 (Patio speakers in my case) without buying another amp? I'm stuck on whether to buy two cheap dayton amps to run a pair of atmos and a pair of the patio speakers, since the footprint is small and can fit in my TV stand. Or buy the Outlaw which would be 3x the cost and also finding a place in my stand since its so large.....
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post #8 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by erlo View Post
Drakdaddy,

If your Denon is running the 8 channels, then will it have the ability to run a zone 2 (Patio speakers in my case) without buying another amp? I'm stuck on whether to buy two cheap dayton amps to run a pair of atmos and a pair of the patio speakers, since the footprint is small and can fit in my TV stand. Or buy the Outlaw which would be 3x the cost and also finding a place in my stand since its so large.....
Asked and answered ... nope. The only AVR that has the capability to reassign unused amps for your Zone 2 use case is the Denon X7200WA (as well as the past few previous "flagship" Denon AVRs).
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post #9 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 11:28 AM
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can't you use your existing Yamaha to power anything in Zone 2? RCA out of the Denon's Zone 2 output to an input on the Yamaha?

you'd still need the 2 channel amp, but not two new amps.

Vinyl, tape, digital... I don't care as long as I can listen to my music...
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post #10 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks JD, I see now that its not reassignable. I want to sell the Yamaha which is only a couple months old to put towards the Denon. I guess I'll just get 2 Dayton Audio APA102 amps and be done with it since they are slim/light, cheap, and can easily power the patio speakers and the rear surrounds.
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post #11 of 44 Old 07-24-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by erlo View Post
Thanks JD, I see now that its not reassignable. I want to sell the Yamaha which is only a couple months old to put towards the Denon. I guess I'll just get 2 Dayton Audio APA102 amps and be done with it since they are slim/light, cheap, and can easily power the patio speakers and the rear surrounds.
Yup. A few members have done this as well.
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post #12 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 12:02 AM
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I currently also think of extending my X4300H with two additional channels, to get a 7.1.4 system. The AVR has enough power for my listening needs, so I think I would attach the remaining two Atmos speakers to the stereo amp.
I've never used a stereo amp before, so please excuse my beginner questions.
Can I use whatever stereo amp I want?
How to change the volume, can I just adjust the master on my X4300h, or will I also need to change the volume on the stereo-amp?
Are there any small footprint <250$ models that would be compatible?


Thanks
Patrick
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post #13 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by patoberli View Post
I currently also think of extending my X4300H with two additional channels, to get a 7.1.4 system. The AVR has enough power for my listening needs, so I think I would attach the remaining two Atmos speakers to the stereo amp.
I've never used a stereo amp before, so please excuse my beginner questions.
Can I use whatever stereo amp I want?
How to change the volume, can I just adjust the master on my X4300h, or will I also need to change the volume on the stereo-amp?
Are there any small footprint <250$ models that would be compatible?


Thanks
Patrick
Something like this will work fine.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757
I think that's the one that JD regularly recommends, and if not, this will work too.
You can either hook it up with a cable via the trigger function, or it has an auto function where it should come on once it senses an incoming signal.
Once you run Audyssey, you will only need to use the volume control on the Denon.

Spoiler!
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post #14 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Something like this will work fine.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757
I think that's the one that JD regularly recommends, and if not, this will work too.
You can either hook it up with a cable via the trigger function, or it has an auto function where it should come on once it senses an incoming signal.
Once you run Audyssey, you will only need to use the volume control on the Denon.
That's the one I use for my 7.1.4. Works great. Amazon is under $100 https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Source-.../dp/B00ZSEFU94
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post #15 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 12:58 AM
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I like Niles stuff.... quality......


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Niles-SI-24...UAAOSw6VRaRqYL

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
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post #16 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 02:18 AM
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AudioSource products are sadly not sold in Switzerland, nor Niles
Any other recommendations?
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post #17 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 03:55 AM
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AudioSource products are sadly not sold in Switzerland, nor Niles
Any other recommendations?
As a reminder this forum focuses on USA products so when one lives outside the USA, you're much better served if you add your country in your profile location.

You can use any stereo amp or receiver for the job.
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post #18 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As a reminder this forum focuses on USA products so when one lives outside the USA, you're much better served if you add your country in your profile location.

You can use any stereo amp or receiver for the job.
Will add it right away
I just discovered that Amazon.com would actually deliver the AMP100VS to Switzerland, even for a fairly good price, but I think it can't be switched to 230V with 50 Hz, right?
The manual sadly doesn't state this in the specs.
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post #19 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 04:05 AM
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Will add it right away
I just discovered that Amazon.com would actually deliver the AMP100VS to Switzerland, even for a fairly good price, but I think it can't be switched to 230V with 50 Hz, right?
The manual sadly doesn't state this in the specs.
I would suggest you simply find a used 2CH stereo amp from your local Classifieds.
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post #20 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 05:11 AM
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We don't have any Classifieds (whatever that is), but we do have auction sites. I just found a Denon PMA-520AE which I can pick up for around 170 USD, anything speaking against this model (besides that it's physically a bit large for my needs)?


[edit]
Just used the search function and saw that you answered this question already some time in the past
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post38525073

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post #21 of 44 Old 01-03-2018, 05:24 AM
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We don't have any Classifieds (whatever that is), but we do have auction sites. I just found a Denon PMA-520AE which I can pick up for around 170 USD, anything speaking against this model (besides that it's physically a bit large for my needs)?
https://switzerland.global-free-classified-ads.com/
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post #22 of 44 Old 01-22-2018, 06:27 AM
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Just wanted to say, I've got now a used Denon PMA-520ae. Nice unit, only one little downside, it doesn't automatically turn on when an audio signal plays. It does automatically turn off if no audio signal is active.
Oh and my now 7.1.4 system does sound better, the additional two Atmos speakers, although they are not yet correctly mounted, make a hearable difference.
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post #23 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 02:35 PM
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I have the Denon 4300H, got it over the 6300 JUST because I knew adding the Outlaw 5000 would make it better for around the same price. I received my Outlaw a few weeks ago. It is HUGE, being around 15 pounds heavier than the Denon, but I love it. I use it for my Left, Center, and Right fronts. I have my Denon running my side surrounds, rear surrounds, and four atmos/overhead speakers. So my Outlaw is running 3, and my Denon is running 8. It works flawlessly. Feel free to ask me any questions.
This is an interesting thought. I am looking to do 7.1.4, so I'm looking at the difference between 4400H w/ amp or 6400H. What would be the benefit of driving the 2 front & center with an amp if the amp is rated at lower power handling (120W vs 140W/150W)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
You'll need an additional 2CH amp to drive the outdoor speakers using either the Zone 2 or Zone 3 pre-outs.

Also note the X4300H is discussed in the 2016 Denon AVR Owner's thread ....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...hread-faq.html
Say I were to go with the 4400H, which 2 speakers would make the most sense drive with the amp? (Or do I not get to choose?)

Also, does the 4400H and 6400H truly not support HDR? The specs on the Denon website seem to imply such, but @jdsmoothie , your post here in the owners thread seems to imply that it can. Can you clarify? Is there anything else that might make sense to assume was available in these versions (like HDR and DV support) that I should know?

One more thing--a little off topic from the thread, but maybe one of you could answer. I've found myself wanting a little more bass, so thought about adding another sub. Haven't done a full eval of where possible dead zones are in my room, but how/when do you decide to add a second sub? My room isn't large (11.5'W x 15'L x 10'H).

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post #24 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 02:57 PM
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This is an interesting thought. I am looking to do 7.1.4, so I'm looking at the difference between 4400H w/ amp or 6400H. What would be the benefit of driving the 2 front & center with an amp if the amp is rated at lower power handling (120W vs 140W/150W)?



Say I were to go with the 4400H, which 2 speakers would make the most sense drive with the amp? (Or do I not get to choose?)

Also, does the 4400H and 6400H truly not support HDR? The specs on the Denon website seem to imply such, but @jdsmoothie , your post here in the owners thread seems to imply that it can. Can you clarify? Is there anything else that might make sense to assume was available in these versions (like HDR and DV support) that I should know?

One more thing--a little off topic from the thread, but maybe one of you could answer. I've found myself wanting a little more bass, so thought about adding another sub. Haven't done a full eval of where possible dead zones are in my room, but how/when do you decide to add a second sub? My room isn't large (11.5'W x 15'L x 10'H).
I have an X4300H rather than its 2017 sibling, but I believe that the X4400H doesn't remove any features from the X4300H.

With the 4300, the only choices as to which speakers aren't used through its 9 amps are the LR fronts or the rear heights. With a low-powered stereo add-on amp, the rear heights are the obvious choice for the external amp. (The rear heights don't require huge power.) That's what I did until recently. I now have an Emotiva XPA3 Gen3 driving LCR, and the rear heights are powered from the 4300. Seems to work well.

As regards HDR, the 4400 supports HDR10 (the commonest form) and Dolby Vision. I'm not sure whether it supported HLG (hybrid log gamma) at release, but it may already have received the promised firmware update to allow that. I can't explain the hyphen in the specs on the Denon USA web site, but it's misleading.

I added a second sub because Hsu had a sale last summer. My placement was somewhat driven by a 25' (8m) signal cable. (I have no noise problem with that, even though it's just an unbalanced RCA cable.)
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post #25 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 04:52 PM
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I have an X4300H rather than its 2017 sibling, but I believe that the X4400H doesn't remove any features from the X4300H.

With the 4300, the only choices as to which speakers aren't used through its 9 amps are the LR fronts or the rear heights.With a low-powered stereo add-on amp, the rear heights are the obvious choice for the external amp. (The rear heights don't require huge power.)
This is good to know. Since you said you did LR & C, would it be possible to send all 4 heights out (rather than just 2) to an amp? Worried about uniformity between the 4 ceiling speakers.

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That's what I did until recently. I now have an Emotiva XPA3 Gen3 driving LCR, and the rear heights are powered from the 4300. Seems to work well.
Oh wow, that amp would be well beyond my budget, but I bet it indeed is nice.

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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
As regards HDR, the 4400 supports HDR10 (the commonest form) and Dolby Vision. I'm not sure whether it supported HLG (hybrid log gamma) at release, but it may already have received the promised firmware update to allow that. I can't explain the hyphen in the specs on the Denon USA web site, but it's misleading.
Also very helpful to know, thank you!

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I added a second sub because Hsu had a sale last summer. My placement was somewhat driven by a 25' (8m) signal cable. (I have no noise problem with that, even though it's just an unbalanced RCA cable.)
How large is the room where you've got them placed? I've tried turning my ASW600 up more, but it gets muddy. It's clean and sounds good now, but I am often left with the feeling of wanting just a little more.

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post #26 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 05:05 PM
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How large is the room where you've got them placed? I've tried turning my ASW600 up more, but it gets muddy. It's clean and sounds good now, but I am often left with the feeling of wanting just a little more.
Upgrading subwoofers can make a big difference in the system; its where I would look first before any other upgrade.
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post #27 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 06:52 PM
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Upgrading subwoofers can make a big difference in the system; its where I would look first before any other upgrade.
Dang you and thank you for reminding me of this. I don't want to spend the money on a new sub, but I know I need to. What sold me on the Atmos setup was a demo in store, and I distinctly remember thinking, "I want that type of base output at home," but have been unsuccessful. The other reason I have for upgrading my receiver is because I'm really tired of the ARC issues. I have to run my AppleTV through the TV for 4k/HDR/DV, and then use ARC to send the sound back out. Same for DTV. There are numerous sync errors, sometimes requiring turning the TV off/on again, or the device. Also problems with the remote. It's another good excuse to upgrade, because it drives my wife nuts. But to buy that AND a new sub, probably won't happen.

That said, you are absolutely right. So, wonder if I can convince her replacing the sub (something she doesn't care about at all) is more important than the receiver right now...

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post #28 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 06:56 PM
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Dang you and thank you for reminding me of this. I don't want to spend the money on a new sub, but I know I need to. What sold me on the Atmos setup was a demo in store, and I distinctly remember thinking, "I want that type of base output at home," but have been unsuccessful. The other reason I have for upgrading my receiver is because I'm really tired of the ARC issues. I have to run my AppleTV through the TV for 4k/HDR/DV, and then use ARC to send the sound back out. Same for DTV. There are numerous sync errors, sometimes requiring turning the TV off/on again, or the device. Also problems with the remote. It's another good excuse to upgrade, because it drives my wife nuts. But to buy that AND a new sub, probably won't happen.

That said, you are absolutely right. So, wonder if I can convince her replacing the sub (something she doesn't care about at all) is more important than the receiver right now...
Ugg. ARC was invented by terrorists to demoralize home-theater enthusiasts. I avoid ARC at all costs. So, tough choice on the upgrade path. But, generally, subs make the system.

Good luck.
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post #29 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
This is good to know. Since you said you did LR & C, would it be possible to send all 4 heights out (rather than just 2) to an amp? Worried about uniformity between the 4 ceiling speakers.
Sure. The settings choose which channels go through the 9 onboard amps. The pre-outs for all channels are active all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post
Oh wow, that amp would be well beyond my budget, but I bet it indeed is nice.



Also very helpful to know, thank you!



How large is the room where you've got them placed? I've tried turning my ASW600 up more, but it gets muddy. It's clean and sounds good now, but I am often left with the feeling of wanting just a little more.
It's my living room, so it isn't exactly a rectangular box. The basic dimension is 13X19'. The ceiling height is about 7' at the outside wall, 11' 8" on the inside wall. (Not using ceiling mounted speakers for the heights.) The TV, fronts, and one sub are at one 13' end. There's a dining room at the opposite end. The second sub is sort of diagonally opposite the first, back about 14' from the end with the TV. Very far from an optimal layout, with doors, windows, etc.

The previous owners of the house used part of the basement as a vice area (TV, beer fridge, heavy cigarette smoking), but I've never used it for that. The less-than 7' ceilings down there make me uncomfortable. (House dates from 1951, and it was a rather low-end one then. Updates can only go so far.)

Two identical subs are supposed to play 6dB (4X) the volume of the one, at least at low frequencies. Seems like there ought to be some sort of conservation of energy issue there, but it's the conventional view.

Last edited by bobknavs; 03-03-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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post #30 of 44 Old 03-03-2018, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
Sure. The settings choose which channels go through the 9 onboard amps. The pre-outs for all channels are active all the time.
OK, glad I could get the heights at the same level.

Back to the thought of 6400H outright vs 4400H w/ amp -- if I wanted to drive L/R/C or 4xAtoms -- that's going to be 4-5 channel amp. At that point, is there any benefit of going w/ one over the other? I'm not sure the price would be that different. I would prefer less equipment, but I can throw that aside if all things aren't equal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
It's my living room, so it isn't exactly a rectangular box. The basic dimension is 13X19'. The ceiling height is about 7' at the outside wall, 11' 8" on the inside wall. (Not using ceiling mounted speakers for the heights.) The TV, fronts, and one sub are at one 13' end. There's a dining room at the opposite end. The second sub is sort of diagonally opposite the first, back about 14' from the end with the TV. Very far from an optimal layout, with doors, windows, etc.

The previous owners of the house used part of the basement as a vice area (TV, beer fridge, heavy cigarette smoking), but I've never used it for that. The less-than 7' ceilings down there make me uncomfortable. (House dates from 1951, and it was a rather low-end one then. Updates can only go so far.)

Two identical subs are supposed to play 6dB (4X) the volume of the one, at least at low frequencies. Seems like there ought to be some sort of conservation of energy issue there, but it's the conventional view.
That's a really tough setup. Sounds very similar to what I had before I moved--it was an open floor plan. Living area was framed with the TV wall (about 8' across), which had two 30-45% angled walls (one was a fireplace) with it, then a half wall on one side, windows on the other, and open back to the breakfast area & kitchen, all on ceramic tile. My surrounds had to be mounted about 1' from the 9' ceiling.

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