StormAudio I.ISP 3D.16.12 16-Channel Integrated AV Processor Hands-On - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I haven't can't see any of his statements that appear to be incorrect? Which are you referring to?
The initial statement that only Trinnov offers 16-channel processing evffectively got it going. An odd claim in a thread about a 16-channel device (that is also available as a pre pro), I thought.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Right now, the only pre-pro that can natively decode 16 channels (let alone 16+ channels) is the Trinnov Altitude, which avoids DSP limitations by using a CPU (Intel i7).

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post #32 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The initial statement that only Trinnov offers 16-channel processing evffectively got it going. An odd claim in a thread about a 16-channel device, I thought.
But it is a true statement. The Trinnov processors are the only processors that offer 16 channel native decoding of Dolby Atmos. Everyone who is limited to DSP is restricted to either 11 channels (7.1.4) or 13 channels (7.1.6) for the two manufacturers who have figured out they can run two chips in parallel (Acurus and Storm).
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post #33 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
But it is a true statement. The Trinnov processors are the only processors that offer 16 channel native decoding of Dolby Atmos. Everyone who is limited to DSP is restricted to either 11 channels (7.1.4) or 13 channels (7.1.6) for the two manufacturers who have figured out they can run two chips in parallel (Acurus and Storm).
Okay I don't want to get into a debate over semantics, but the original question was not about Atmos in particular.

Anyhow, I hate for that point to distract from this thread. The floor show is open today, and I'll be talking to various manufacturers about the road forward.

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post #34 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Okay I don't want to get into a debate over semantics, but the original question was not about Atmos in particular.
Its not semantics though, its an important point. Believe me, I have the exact same gripe with my Datasat RS20i. These are 16 channel processors, you're paying for 16 output channels, but the truth is once installed, unless you're arraying channels or actively bi-amping some speakers, you'll only ever be using 11 or 13 for both Atmos, DTS:X and their respective upmixers. You are likely going to be using one of those four at all times.

The only reason we are stuck in this situation is because these higher channel count manufacturers (Datasat, Storm, Theta etc) are using the exact same DSP chips used by the lower end receiver manufacturers.

As Sanjay pointed out, that decoding restriction won't change until the likes of D & M start demand more powerful DSP's that allow a larger number of decoding channels. At which point the likes of Theta, Datasat and Storm will be able to offer replacement hardware boards that include the new chips, and eventually allow full and proper discrete utilisation of their full 16 output channels.
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post #35 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The initial statement that only Trinnov offers 16-channel processing evffectively got it going. An odd claim in a thread about a 16-channel device (that is also available as a pre pro), I thought.
The screenshot accompanying your article shows 12 channels:



The article says it can do 2 more heights. That takes it to 14 channels. You've already posted that there is no support for wides. So what are the other two channels that make it a "16-channel device"?
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post #36 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The screenshot accompanying your article shows 12 channels:



The article says it can do 2 more heights. That takes it to 14 channels. You've already posted that there is no support for wides. So what are the other two channels that make it a "16-channel device"?
Oh you busted me with my own posted information. Good for you.

Yeah, that's a screenshot of the 7.1.4 configuration that I said I started out with.
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post #37 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yeah, that's a screenshot of the 7.1.4 configuration that I said I started out with.
Not asking what you started off with, simply asking you to list the additional channels that make this receiver a "16-channel device". If you're going to accuse me of making "incorrect statements" (plural), it's not unreasonable to ask you to back up that accusation. Since you sidestepped my question, I'll ask again: what additional channels make this a 16-channel device?
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post #38 of 1148 Old 09-07-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Okay I don't want to get into a debate over semantics, but the original question was not about Atmos in particular.
Yes it is.

You may not be aware of all the discussions that go on but the focus in all is to determine what/if/when SSPs (other than Trinnov) will render 16+ Atmos channels (especially wides). In every thread (Acurus, Datasat, McIntosh, Lyngdorf, Emotiva, Storm, D+M, Yamaha, Beyond 7.1.4/ScAtmos/SWAtmos) the big question looming is about 14/16+ Atmos rendering and support for WIDES.

Honestly, no one cares about 7.4.4/7.5.4. 9.x.4 and 7.x.6 is expected from D+M/Yamaha/etc. Likewise 9.x.6 from these "16-channel" SSPs. At least support matrixing like Lyngdorf/McIntosh. Anything less is disappointing from my viewpoint.
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post #39 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not asking what you started off with, simply asking you to list the additional channels that make this receiver a "16-channel device". If you're going to accuse me of making "incorrect statements" (plural), it's not unreasonable to ask you to back up that accusation. Since you sidestepped my question, I'll ask again: what additional channels make this a 16-channel device?
Good catch Sanjay, I'm also very interested to know the answer to this... What with on the one hand claiming to decode 16 audio channels discretely but then apparently not supporting WIDES, this certainly does beg the question, if there's no support for WIDES then what are the other audio channels which are supported further to the typical 7.1.4 ?

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Yes it is.

You may not be aware of all the discussions that go on but the focus in all is to determine what/if/when SSPs (other than Trinnov) will render 16+ Atmos channels (especially wides). In every thread (Acurus, Datasat, McIntosh, Lyngdorf, Emotiva, Storm, D+M, Yamaha, Beyond 7.1.4/ScAtmos/SWAtmos) the big question looming is about 14/16+ Atmos rendering and support for WIDES.

Honestly, no one cares about 7.4.4/7.5.4. 9.x.4 and 7.x.6 is expected from D+M/Yamaha/etc. Likewise 9.x.6 from these "16-channel" SSPs. At least support matrixing like Lyngdorf/McIntosh. Anything less is disappointing from my viewpoint.
^^^ +1 what he said
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post #40 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to clarify a little bit of confusion on this thread.

16 channel DSP based solutions will be able to process 9.1.6 at some point soon, once Dolby allows it. It's not a hardware limitation. So while it's true that currently Trinnov is the only company doing it, we will see other DSP based devices offer the capability soon.

And here's the best hint that's coming down the pike, the latest Dolby Atmos demo disc has this on it:




OK 9.1.6 tones have been a thing for a while, I did not notice. Hopefully there's gonna be a use for them soon.

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post #41 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Good catch Sanjay, I'm also very interested to know the answer to this... What with on the one hand claiming to decode 16 audio channels discretely but then apparently not supporting WIDES, this certainly does beg the question, if there's no support for WIDES then what are the other audio channels which are supported further to the typical 7.1.4 ?

^^^ +1 what he said
.

.
Actually it's just a shame this conversation is being dominated by a few folks (very few, lol) intent on carrying on the grand Internet tradition of basing comments on pessimism and guessing games. No big deal, I'm enjoying actually talking about the future the Atmos here at CEDIA.

So what's your plan, do you want to make this a positive conversation, or do you want to join the party poopers?

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post #42 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'd like to clarify a little bit of... oh let's charitably call it "confusion" on this thread.

16 channel DSP based solutions will be able to process 9.1.6 at some point soon, once Dolby allows it. It's not a hardware limitation. So while it's true that currently Trinnov is the only company doing it, we will see other DSP based devices offer the capability soon.

And here's the best hint that's coming down the pike, the latest Dolby Atmos demo disc has this on it:


Mark, FYI circa September 2015:

http://www.demo-world.eu/2015/11/30/...disc-sep-2015/

Dolby has also had these channel alignments posted on their website since ~2015 and the test tones posted since 2016.

Not trying to be a party pooper, just stating facts. I very recently purchased the Lyngdorf MP-50, a 16 channel processor that renders 12.

I'm looking forward to meeting you here at CEDIA.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
And here's the best hint that's coming down the pike, the latest Dolby Atmos demo disc has this on it:
Third year in a row that the 9.1.6 test tones have been on the Dolby demo disc.
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post #44 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Mark, FYI circa September 2015:

http://www.demo-world.eu/2015/11/30/...disc-sep-2015/

Dolby has also had these channel alignments posted on their website since ~2015 and the test tones posted since 2016.

Not trying to be a party pooper, just stating facts. I very recently purchased the Lyngdorf MP-50, a 16 channel processor that renders 12.

I'm looking forward to meeting you here at CEDIA.
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Third year in a row that the 9.1.6 test tones have been on the Dolby demo disc.
Well it looks like I have not paid sufficient attention to the test tones on the disc year over year, but still the buzz is 9.1.6 is coming and that DSP processing power is not the limitation here.

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post #45 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 04:35 PM
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Damn...Mark's been dishing out the salt lately!

I guess I can't blame him, posting on a internet forum as a job would drive me bat&#^t crazy.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Actually it's just a shame this conversation is being dominated by a few folks (very few, lol) intent on carrying on the grand Internet tradition of basing comments on pessimism and guessing games. No big deal, I'm enjoying actually talking about the future the Atmos here at CEDIA.

So what's your plan, do you want to make this a positive conversation, or do you want to join the party poopers?
Hi Mark, I was under the impression that in the absence of such information as there currently appears to be, answering this very important question of Sanjay's certainly qualifies as positive contribution to this conversation and thread topic:

Quote:
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what additional channels make this a 16-channel device?
I've no interest in taking sides or anything other than the answer to this question... It's reported to discretely render 16 audio channels and yet does not support WIDES... So I will repeat the question, what additional channels make this a 16-channel device? Clarifying this would certainly be nothing but positive

Also, I would still very much like to meet with you for coffee whilst here at CEDIA so let me know when suits, via PM or otherwise
.
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post #47 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
16 channel DSP based solutions will be able to process 9.1.6 at some point soon, once Dolby allows it. It's not a hardware limitation.

I could've sworn the opposite is the case, but perhaps I'm mistaken since Sanjay hasn't said anything.

And Marc, I think straightening out the facts is a positive, not a negative.
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post #48 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I could've sworn the opposite is the case, but perhaps I'm mistaken since Sanjay hasn't said anything.

And Marc, I think straightening out the facts is a positive, not a negative.
Yes I agree, it motivated me to make that the focus of several conversations today. The end result? Fingers crossed.

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post #49 of 1148 Old 09-08-2017, 09:08 PM
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oops, Mark, not Marc

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Using dual DSP's to go beyond 11.1 channel processing makes sense, after all I have technically done that for a year now with my creative multi-AVR hack.

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post #51 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Confirmed today that Analog Devices says true 9.1.6 Atmos is coming to DSP based solutions. Likely by end of year.

And yeah we are talking about front wides in the mix.
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post #52 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Confirmed today that Analog Devices says true 9.1.6 Atmos is coming to DSP based solutions. Likely by end of year.

And yeah we are talking about front wides in the mix.
Current chipsets already in the wild or upcoming (like the Emotiva RMC-1)?

Thanks for chasing this down Mark!
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Stay tuned for more, it's already up and running in a 7.1.4 configuration, which is soon to become a 7.2.6 system (with five physical subs). This is serious business!

Also, for this unit, I promise to write a formal review when I'm done with the hands-on. I've got the I.ISP for one month, and CEDIA is just weeks away, so you can expect to see an update here really soon. This is, bar none, the most awesome AVR I've ever seen.
Mark, I am looking forward to your progression to 7.2.6. I'm hoping they give you some extra time with the AVR due to CEDIA. I'm on the train back home from CEDIA to finally be able to setup my Lyngdorf. I'll be running 7.3.6 with 8 total subs.
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post #54 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 04:22 PM
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7.x.6 or 9.x.6 "needs"

I hope the conversation stays positive, and I hope that people at CEDIA will ask pointed and specific questions regarding rendered vs matrixed channels beyond 12.

I'm sidelined with cash to spend if the right product came out. I KNOW from reading that many here have invested in hardware and in their rooms to have wides, they want them (*) rendered, not matrixed like all the current solutions (all but Trinnov)

Similarly, I know from reading that many people want 6 atmos speakers rendered to account for long rooms, most likely with 2 plus rows.

Personally, I'm hoping for a less commonly mentioned use of extra channels, I'd like to have 4 side speakers to go along with 6 atoms speakers for presentations using two rows.

An interesting question for the experts here, if a system did have "wides", would any, or all of the room correction processes allow me to use the wides as sides next to row1 of seating, and the sides next to row2 of seating for properly rendered 4 side speakers? I gather that Trinnov would with some of their current, or even pending products.

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(*) edited to read as intended, sorry

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I'm sidelined with cash to spend if the right product came out. I KNOW from reading that many here have invested in hardware and in their rooms to have wides, they want them matrixed, not rendered like (all but Trinnov) that is currently out there.
No thanks, I will keep my wides rendered.

And for content not provided in Atmos there is always the Neural:X upmixer to bring sounds to the wides.

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No thanks, I will keep my wides rendered.

And for content not provided in Atmos there is always the Neural:X upmixer to bring sounds to the wides.

OMG, typo obviously. I meant rendered. I'll have to go back and proof read what I typed.... why would anyone WANT them matrixed over rendered in this discussion. Matrixed maybe over not having them at all could be a different discussion.

I'll fix it...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBen View Post
An interesting question for the experts here, if a system did have "wides", would any, or all of the room correction processes allow me to use the wides as sides next to row1 of seating, and the sides next to row2 of seating for properly rendered 4 side speakers? I gather that Trinnov would with some of their current, or even pending products.

Alex
You can do that very simply, by setting up the speaker configuration to have the side surrounds sent to the wide speaker output in a multiple speaker array. I do that sometimes with DSU or Neutral:X/DTS:X on one of my Altitude presets.

However, you can also have two sets of side surrounds ("side surround 1" and a regular pair of side surrounds) in native Atmos, whether or not you're using wides. but I'll point out that if you're getting into the Altitude game, where you want to do that physically will depend on whether you have multiple rows of seats or a single row. If Trinnov makes its white paper on placement publicly available, you can find out more then, or you can always look into The Cinema Designer and try to play with where to put speakers in your room for a fee....
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post #58 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
You can do that very simply, by setting up the speaker configuration to have the side surrounds sent to the wide speaker output in a multiple speaker array. I do that sometimes with DSU or Neutral:X/DTS:X on one of my Altitude presets.

However, you can also have two sets of side surrounds ("side surround 1" and a regular pair of side surrounds) in native Atmos, whether or not you're using wides. but I'll point out that if you're getting into the Altitude game, where you want to do that physically will depend on whether you have multiple rows of seats or a single row. If Trinnov makes its white paper on placement publicly available, you can find out more then, or you can always look into The Cinema Designer and try to play with where to put speakers in your room for a fee....
I'm assuming that your reply "You can do that very simply" and all that follows is restricted currently to Trinnov software processing for discrete, rendered, channels, not the current crop of DSP chips.

I imagine, but don't know factually, that using 4 side speakers with two rows would be most pleasing when they were active inline with each row. A completely different question is, or would be, if you had only single row, would a single side speaker inline be best, or, would immersive sound be even better with 4 sides, slightly in front, slightly in back, rendered of course....

This would not be something practically implemented without a crazy expensive installation with 8 side speakers that were on or off depending on seating needs..... I'm sure someone with a Trinnov will build it some day.

Thanks for clarifying
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post #59 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Confirmed today that Analog Devices says true 9.1.6 Atmos is coming to DSP based solutions. Likely by end of year.

And yeah we are talking about front wides in the mix.
Fantastic news! And great meeting you today Mark
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post #60 of 1148 Old 09-09-2017, 08:11 PM
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... why would anyone WANT them matrixed over rendered in this discussion. Matrixed maybe over not having them at all could be a different discussion.

Personally I'd take matrixed over rendered because only a small % of program material is in Atmos, and even then the wides are little used.

Whereas matrixing gives an expanded front soundstage that you can enjoy all of the time.
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