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post #61 of 1152 Old 09-09-2017, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Personally I'd take matrixed over rendered because only a small % of program material is in Atmos, and even then the wides are little used.

Whereas matrixing gives an expanded front soundstage that you can enjoy all of the time.
Fabulous to see someone else who really gets this! And the expanded front soundstage of course also applies to and enhances the playback of music as well.
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post #62 of 1152 Old 09-09-2017, 09:33 PM
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Fabulous to see someone else who really gets this! And the expanded front soundstage of course also applies to and enhances the playback of music as well.
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Noah, and Arrow.....

I'm goofing up the quote ability of the forum, sorry.

I don't think that rendered sides vs matrix sides or wides are necessarily mutually exclusive. I lived VERY happily for a long time with matrixed L7 sides using a Lexicon MC8 and was THRILLED with the ability of the processor to synthesize a side channel that was not coded for in what we now consider the sense of rendered side channels.

I have no problem believing that matrixed wides are more fun and immersive than not having them at all. But, when available, why not have them rendered for potentially enhanced immersion vs matrixed? That is what I meant by "clearly preferred".

Currently I'm leaning to the Lyngdorf if for no other reason than the bass management seems to be really strong, and it has built in abilities to store a couple of configurations with pre-selected triggers. This would allow me to load one of two configurations, and have each one turn on or off amplifiers for an extra set of sides, or different set of atoms speakers.

Thank you, just wanted to clarify that I'm not against matrixing or synthesizing wides or a second set of sides, or a middle pair of atoms to make six... but given a choice, heck-ya, would prefer to render these extra channels.

Right now, that seems the domain exclusively of Trinnov, and despite claims to the contrary, this thread regarding the StormAudio, doesn't seem to fulfill the dream of rendered wides and mid-atoms to give 6 up there.

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post #63 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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It's nice to see a robust conversation taking place here. I would expect that once 9.1.6 is implemented, when there is a not native content, the upmixer will use the wides. Again fingers crossed.

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post #64 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's nice to see a robust conversation taking place here. I would expect that once 9.1.6 is implemented, when there is a not native content, the upmixer will use the wides. Again fingers crossed.
DSU doesn't support wides, Neural:X thankfully does.

Neural:X is doing a very good job with the wides so I have yet to feel let down when not watching immersive content.
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post #65 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
DSU doesn't support wides, Neural:X thankfully does.

Neural:X is doing a very good job with the wides so I have yet to feel let down when not watching immersive content.
Once Atmos handles 9.1.6, it is likely DSU will support wides as well. I am not talking about today.

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post #66 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Once Atmos handles 9.1.6, it is likely DSU will support wides as well. I am not talking about today.
Today if you have a Trinnov Altitude32 DSU will not use the wides. Nor if you have a 2015 D&M running 9.1.2.

It would be great if Dolby would get their collective heads out of their bums and improve DSU but as of right now it is working as designed.

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post #67 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Today if you have a Trinnov Altitude32 DSU will not use the wides. Nor if you have a 2015 D&M running 9.1.2.

It would be great if Dolby would get their collective heads out of their bums and improve DSU but as of right now it is working as designed.
I totally understand that. That's because Triinnov worked out it's own solution for a rendering Atmos. But in doing so, Dolby did not provide it with a custom version of DSU. The idea is that when Atmos becomes commonly available in 9.1.6 (i.e. For DSP-based solutions) my guess is that it will be accompanied by DSU that supports it.

Trinnov got a good run out of its custom solution but obviously it came at great cost.

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post #68 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:15 AM
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How many discrete channels does the home version of Dolby Atmos support now?
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post #69 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:19 AM
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How many discrete channels does the home version of Dolby Atmos support now?
34, 24 around you and 10 above.

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post #70 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I totally understand that. That's because Triinnov worked out it's own solution for a rendering Atmos. But in doing so, Dolby did not provide it with a custom version of DSU. The idea is that when Atmos becomes commonly available in 9.1.6 (i.e. For DSP-based solutions) my guess is that it will be accompanied by DSU that supports it.

Trinnov got a good run out of its custom solution but obviously it came at great cost.
That doesn't explain why the DSP based 9.1.2 systems don't use the wides with DSU.
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post #71 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
That doesn't explain why the DSP based 9.1.2 systems don't use the wides with DSU.
Nor was I attempting to answer that question

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post #72 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
That doesn't explain why the DSP based 9.1.2 systems don't use the wides with DSU.
Atmos and DSU are unrelated. Of the 24 speakers in the base layer, only 17 are fed by DSU. If a device (like the Altitude32) can natively render to all 24 base layer speakers, the upmixing will still feed only 17 of those speakers. On mainstream products that could natively render to 9 base layer speakers, the upmixing only fed 7 of them. No wides. When upcoming products start to re-introduce native rendering to wides, don't expect the upmixing to suddenly start feeding wides. One has nothing to do with the other.

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post #73 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos and DSU are unrelated. Of the 24 speakers in the base layer, only 17 are fed by DSU. If a device (like the Altitude32) can natively render to all 24 base layer speakers, the upmixing will still feed only 17 of those speakers. On mainstream products that could natively render to 9 base layer speakers, the upmixing only fed 7 of them. No wides. When upcoming products start to re-introduce native rendering to wides, don't expect the upmixing to suddenly start feeding wides. One has nothing to do with the other.
Thanks for confirming what I posted further up in response to Imagic.
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post #74 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 09:38 AM
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Honest question here....

Why is it that any processor doing 16 channels has to come at such a nosebleed price? Yes, I understand that this particular one is also full of amps, but its still a valid question.

What would practically keep some of the bigger firms (Denon-Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer etc) from offering a 16+ channel solution for under $5k? Am I missing something? Is it just because the firms currently offering these products do not have economy of scale like the big box companies do, therefore they must cost $15k?

My full disclosure is that I have absolutely no interest in anything with this many channels...unless of course it can use them to do 4 independent zones.
Economy of scale for sure.
A lot of tooling and development cost on one side and a rather "very limited" number of sales on the other hand. This drives cost and is not worth the money if they wouldn't charge "a lot" for such a niche product. A sensible large volume count for each run makes their productions facilities more economical to run and makes better use of available man power. Thus doesn't make sense for them but only for rather small "boutique" type labels. Just think of the aftermath in terms of warranty cost, firmware maintenance and dealer support for a rather large network.
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post #75 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos and DSU are unrelated. Of the 24 speakers in the base layer, only 17 are fed by DSU. If a device (like the Altitude32) can natively render to all 24 base layer speakers, the upmixing will still feed only 17 of those speakers. On mainstream products that could natively render to 9 base layer speakers, the upmixing only fed 7 of them. No wides. When upcoming products start to re-introduce native rendering to wides, don't expect the upmixing to suddenly start feeding wides. One has nothing to do with the other.
Thank you for confirming what I tried to explain further up as a reply to Imagic.

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post #76 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBen View Post
I don't think that rendered sides vs matrix sides or wides are necessarily mutually exclusive.
Not necessarily on a system basis, but certainly at a given moment in time.

I think Arrow-AV already said this in the MP-50 thread, but it would be interesting to compare a native Atmos soundtrack with rendered vs. matrixed wides.

It would of course depend on how it was mixed, but I wouldn't be surprised if matrixed in general gave an overall better experience than native rendered.

From what I've read (about early Atmos at least, I haven't been keeping up) there may just be an occasional effect in the wides, whereas matrixing would always be adding to the soundstage, as well as reproduce the effect, though perhaps not as well.



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Atmos and DSU are unrelated...When upcoming products start to re-introduce native rendering to wides, don't expect the upmixing to suddenly start feeding wides.

They are both offspring of Dolby, so seems to me they're siblings.

They may not add Wides support to DSU, but it would be in their interest to do so; it would be another reason to upgrade, moving more new boxes and generating more licensing fees.

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post #77 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Thank you for confirming what I tried to explain further up as a reply to Imagic.
All that was confirmed is that nobody knows for sure if DSU will be updated along with Atmos 9.1.6, or not. Everyone is just guessing.

At least we are past the earlier discussion based on the false notion that DSP-based solutions can't do 9.1.6.

So like I said earlier, hopefully an update to Atmos will be concurrent with an expansion of DSU's capability. I don't see how it's possible to confirm or deny such a thing. Just cross your fingers and hope Dolby gets the message that people want this.

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post #78 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 02:05 PM
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They are both offspring of Dolby, so seems to me they're siblings.
Dolby Vision and Dolby Noise Reduction are both offsprings of Dolby, but they're not siblings of Atmos nor DSU. Not all Dolby technologies are connected. PLIIz was a Dolby upmixer with heights. Doesn't mean it was related to Atmos.
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They may not add Wides support to DSU, but it would be in their interest to do so; it would be another reason to upgrade, moving more new boxes and generating more licensing fees.
It's not just wides. If you configure a single surround-back speaker (centre rear), Atmos will render to it, DSU won't upmix to it. Same with speakers between the L/C/R. There are certain speaker locations that DSU will not support. Has nothing to do with Atmos.
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post #79 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
At least we are past the earlier discussion based on the false notion that DSP-based solutions can't do 9.1.6.
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Confirmed today that Analog Devices says true 9.1.6 Atmos is coming to DSP based solutions. Likely by end of year.

And yeah we are talking about front wides in the mix.
Current chipsets already in the wild (i.e. Datasat, Acurus) or just upcoming (like the Storms and Emotiva)?
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post #80 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Current chipsets already in the wild (i.e. Datasat, Acurus) or just upcoming (like the Storms and Emotiva)?
One confirmation it's coming came from Datasat, make what you will of that. Obviously I'd prefer an official announcement with details.

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post #81 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 04:08 PM
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...It's not just wides. If you configure a single surround-back speaker (centre rear), Atmos will render to it, DSU won't upmix to it. Same with speakers between the L/C/R. There are certain speaker locations that DSU will not support. Has nothing to do with Atmos.

"Nothing to do with it" is a bit strong; it's not a coincidence that both appeared simultaneously.

Obviously DSU is meant to substitute for Atmos when it's not available, albeit less than fully as you point out.

Let's hope they make it more fully in upcoming products.

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I was under the impression that the reason DSU does not utilize the Wide speakers was to "preserve artistic intent." Was that not the answer given by Brett Crockett during one of those early Q&A sessions??

Also worth noting is that with benefit of hindsight, market reaction, and the experiences gained through the appearance a subsequent upmixer that supports Wides, DSU could be tweaked in a future release to do so. There's no issues with backward compatibility, so anything is possible. "Past performance is no indication of future ...."

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
One confirmation it's coming came from Datasat, make what you will of that. Obviously I'd prefer an official announcement with details.
That corresponds with information from the Datasat thread that 6 heights support is coming. I think we will have to wait for more info to determine if this means just 7.1.6, 7.1.6 & 9.1.4, or full 9.1.6.

Lyngdord/McIntosh are also using ADI chipsets. Could we see enhanced rendering in the future for these products as well?
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post #84 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
"Nothing to do with it" is a bit strong; it's not a coincidence that both appeared simultaneously.
Upmixers appear when speaker layouts change. When heights showed up on consumer gear, so did PLIIz (and Neo:X). Dolby didn't wait till Atmos to start upmixing to height speakers. When the layout changed to include more base layer and height layer speakers, so did their upmixer. They also used the opportunity to switch from a Fosgate-designed upmixer to their own. But it's not tied to Atmos (i.e., if Atmos feeds wides so will DSU).

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post #85 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 06:26 PM
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I was under the impression that the reason DSU does not utilize the Wide speakers was to "preserve artistic intent." Was that not the answer given by Brett Crockett during one of those early Q&A sessions??
That was their official reason for not upmixing to wides and the speakers inbetween the L/C/R. Will Dolby suddenly stop caring about artistic intent and have DSU upmix to wides when those speakers are re-introduced in mainstream products?
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post #86 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 07:34 PM
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Will Dolby suddenly stop caring about artistic intent and have DSU upmix to wides when those speakers are re-introduced in mainstream products?

Perhaps not, but I just thought of something - once the DSP chips are able, it's possible if not likely that the DTS upmixer will gain 9.x.6 capability, so we need not necessarily depend on Dolby for it.

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post #87 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:01 PM
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I just thought of something - once the DSP chips are able, it's possible if not likely that the DTS upmixer will gain 9.x.6 capability, so we need not necessarily depend on Dolby for it.
Neural:X already does matrix extracted wides, even from DTS:X soundtracks, though I don't know if it currently upmixes to more than 11 outputs. Even when a platform is capable, like the Altitude, DTS seems to be stuck at 11.
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post #88 of 1152 Old 09-10-2017, 08:37 PM
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Forgot about that, good point.

Let's hope Dolby does it to one-up DTS, since their upmixer now outdoes Dolby's in having Wides support.

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post #89 of 1152 Old 09-11-2017, 01:06 AM
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Forgot about that, good point.

Let's hope Dolby does it to one-up DTS, since their upmixer now outdoes Dolby's in having Wides support.
As Sanjay pointed out though, DTS is similarly neutering their upmixer by forcing an 11 channel limit. If you engage width channels on Neural:X, you're limited to two height channels.

I think what is needed is for both companies to............, and allow manufacturers to implement any and all channels they see fit, and have their upmixers utilise all possible channels up to the theoretical maximum the native codec will allow.

Last edited by rboster; 09-11-2017 at 04:31 AM. Reason: language
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post #90 of 1152 Old 09-11-2017, 01:09 AM
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So I'm seeing mixed reports in this thread now regarding the channel processing ability of the currently available DSP's.

Are we saying that what we have been told over the last year, regarding the processing ability of the current Atmos DSP's being limited to 11 channels, is incorrect, and they can now be updated to offer more channels at some point in the future? Or is it actually the case that newer DSP's with higher channel count abilities are required?
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