Enter the Bubble: about format agnostic immersive lay-outs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 35Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 76 Old 11-14-2017, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Enter the Bubble: about format agnostic immersive lay-outs

With the recently introduced low entry 16 channel Trinnov Altitude, the upcoming (spring 2018) 13.x discrete channel D&M AVRs/processors (together with rumors of 15.x following soon after that), and a number of other companies promising and/or announcing 13.x or more discrete decoding (Stormaudio, Acurus, Emotiva, Lyngdorf, DataSat) the discussion on true format agnostic immersive speaker lay-outs will no longer be the predominant domain of ultra high-end (>20.000) gear or extreme multi-AVR hobbyists.

This thread is to discuss speaker lay-out options for rooms of various sizes and shapes, aiming at the best/ideal/optimal compromise between existing immersive formats (Atmos, DTS:X and Auro3D) and formats on the horizon (ATSC 3.0, link). Focus wil be on the said 13 and 15 main channel configurations, but can also include lower or higher channel counts.

The kick-off is a proposed 7.x.6 / 9.x.6 speaker configuration designed to fully comply to Atmos, DTS:X, Auro3D and ATSC3.0 recommendations. It took me quite some time to figure this one out, and I have posted about (parts of it) on several threads already. I believe it checks all the boxes, and wonder what you guys think of it:

<coming up>

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-14 om 15.45.10.png
Views:	108
Size:	17.2 KB
ID:	2315024

PS Sorry for the cliffhanger, will come back soon ...
Krobar, mry110, mtbdudex and 2 others like this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-28-2017 at 05:11 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 76 Old 11-14-2017, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
BASE SPEAKER LOCATIONS

Center: 0d azimuth, (normal) elevation 0-10d
L/R Fronts: between 24-40d azimuth, (normal) elevation 0-10d
Wides: 50-70d azimuth, (normal) elevation 0-10d
L/R Side Surrounds: around 100-110d azimuth, (normal) elevation 5-10d
L/R Rear Surrunds: around 150d azimuth, (normal) elevation 5-10d


CEILING SPEAKER LOCATIONS

Top Fronts / Front Heights
40d azimuth (DTS:X, Auro3D)
42.5d longitudinal elevation (Atmos)
47.5d lateral elevation
35d normal elevation (DTS:X, Auro3D)
lateral separation: 85d
normal separation: 64d


Top Middles / Top Speakers
between 75-105d azimuth (Auro3D)
80-100d longitudinal elevation (Atmos)
57.5d lateral elevation (Auro3D)
56.5-57.5 normal elevation
lateral separation: 65d
normal separation: 64-65d


Top Rears / Surround Heights
135d azimuth (DTS:X, Auro3D)
130d longitudinal elevation (Atmos)
50d lateral elevation
40d normal elevation (DTS:X, Auro3D)
lateral separation: 80d
normal separation: 66d




EXAMPLE

Headspace = vertical distance from 'seated ears' to the ceiling speakers. .
W = distance between opposite side speakers.
L = distance between opposite front/back speakers.
All 'd' values are azimuth angles.
green lines are base speakers
blue lines are ceiling speakers
orange bar is (width of) the usable listening area

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-22 om 11.38.46.png
Views:	462
Size:	178.0 KB
ID:	2322228

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-28 om 12.50.56.png
Views:	369
Size:	70.3 KB
ID:	2322224

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-28 om 14.04.46.png
Views:	347
Size:	64.4 KB
ID:	2322226

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-29-2017 at 05:58 AM. Reason: some nomenclature changes
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #3 of 76 Old 11-16-2017, 10:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Yes ?.......?.....

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 76 Old 11-17-2017, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes ?.......?.....
Yeah, I know.. Just as curious as you are

Checking the last bits and pieces, and waiting for confirmation from AuroTechnologies that their (near) equidistance requirement (height speakers becoming too noticeable if closer than 0.9x the distance to the speaker below) could be removed by tailoring the FR of each and every speaker to the same target curve. I wish to include that as an option, as it would greatly improve speaker placement flexibility.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #5 of 76 Old 11-21-2017, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
As the response from Auro takes a bit longer than expected, I have started with a summary of the angular positions of 7 base and 6 overhead speakers (see post nr 2). Once I have their confirmation, I wil add examples with room dimensions.

Edit: example added in post no. 2

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 11-22-2017 at 11:55 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #6 of 76 Old 11-22-2017, 05:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
As the response from Auro takes a bit longer than expected, I have started with a summary of the angular positions of 7 base and 6 overhead speakers (see post nr 2). Once I have their confirmation, I wil add examples with room dimensions.

Edit: example added in post no. 2
Is there a reason you put top middle/top surround both in front of you, and closer to each other than the other heights?

Sitting in the right seat, it seems as right top middle and right front height is almost in-line with each other(as wieved from the right seat).

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #7 of 76 Old 11-22-2017, 05:30 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
appelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: A Hilton property near you!
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 735 Post(s)
Liked: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Is there a reason you put top middle/top surround both in front of you, and closer to each other than the other heights?
If he matrixes Ltm and Rtm as the Top speaker when decoding Auro3D, having them closer together will give a better phantom Top image across the seating area. I currently have a very similar setup in my Lab, but not quite as aggressive.

@jamin and I have some other ideas, but we aren't quite ready to share them yet.

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video, Level III Trinnov Altitude Calibrator
Mercenary Calibrator for Manufacturers, Integrators and System Owners
appelz is offline  
post #8 of 76 Old 11-22-2017, 10:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SoundChex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA, west coast
Posts: 3,393
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 393 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Quote:
Listener Discrimination Between Common Speaker-Based 3D Audio Reproduction Formats
Authors:Howie, Will; King, Richard; Martin, Denis
Affiliation:The Graduate Program in Sound Recording, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada; The Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology, Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Over the last decade, numerous three-dimensional audio playback formats have been introduced and standardized for cinema, broadcast, and home theater environments. They differ in terms of number of speakers, speaker positions in the horizontal and vertical planes, and workflow strategies: channel-based, object-based, or some hybrid of the two. Each system possesses inherent pros and cons. This research attempts to determine whether listeners could discriminate among four currently standardized three-dimensional audio formats for reproduction of acoustic music. Double-blind listening tests showed that listeners could discriminate between NHK 22.2 Multichannel Sound (22.2) and several lower-channel-count 3D reproduction formats with a high degree of success, regardless of the musical stimulus. Listeners were also able to discriminate between three relatively similar 3D audio formats: ATSC 11.1, KBS 10.2, and Auro 9.1, although with significantly less success than with the 22.2. This suggests each of these formats deliver a perceptually different listening experience, with 22.2 being particularly different from the other formats under investigation.
...from JOURNAL OF THE AUDIO ENGINEERING SOCIETY, Current Issue: 2017 October - Volume 65 Number 10 ( http://www.aes.org/journal/ }

Looks like these are ITU-R BS.2051-0 layouts D, F, [subset of] G, and H. It will be interesting to see if|how this AES focus on streaming|broadcast speaker layouts in Korea and Japan is reflected in fothcoming premium priced processors...?!


_

[Home Office system schematic]
"My AV systems were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many speakers. And they have . . . A PLAN."

SoundChex is offline  
post #9 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Is there a reason you put top middle/top surround both in front of you,
Good point. You can position those TMs anywhere within 75-105d azimuth, corresponding to 80-100d longitudinal (Atmos) elevation. I have corrected the angles and diagram accordingly. In this example, 85d azimuth could be the preferred position, as it puts them right in the middle of the aperture of both Wides to SideSurrounds as Top Fronts to Top Rears.

Quote:
and closer to each other than the other heights?
This has two reasons:
- Auro3D requirements do not allow Top Speakers to be positioned lower than 57.5 lateral elevation
- Moving them further apart (e.g. to align with the L/R fronts) will narrow the listening area (in this example from 4' to 3'). I have explained that here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
a 'too wide' separation angle between an overhead pair can make an in-between positioned mono-sound perceptually snap to one side for listeners sitting too far off-center.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:04 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #10 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 02:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
If he matrixes Ltm and Rtm as the Top speaker when decoding Auro3D, having them closer together will give a better phantom Top image across the seating area.
Exactly. And this can also apply to Atmos, as an (mono) object intended to be heard right above is consequently pan-potted right in-between TM speakers.

Quote:
I currently have a very similar setup in my Lab, but not quite as aggressive.
Could that be related to your listening area being only two seats (3 feet) wide?

Quote:
@jamin and I have some other ideas, but we aren't quite ready to share them yet.
Good things come slowly.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #11 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 04:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Good point. You can position those TMs anywhere within 75-105d azimuth, corresponding to 80-100d median (Atmos) elevation. I have corrected the angles and diagram accordingly. In this example, 85d azimuth could be the preferred position, as it puts them right in the middle of the aperture of both Wides to SideSurrounds as Top Fronts to Top Rears.



This has two reasons:
- Auro3D requirements do not allow Top Speakers to be positioned lower than 57.5 lateral elevation
- Moving them further apart (e.g. to align with the L/R fronts) will narrow the listening area (in this example from 4' to 3'). I have explained that here:
Yes, i realize you are trying to make top middle/top surround a «dual mode» set of speakers, And both those set are basically «right above you» speakers, so i just thought you might compromise the Atmos top middle to much by placing them that far ahead AND that much closer to each other. It kind of compounded the problem.

And since you have both front and rear heights(6 overhead speakers), i see no reason to NOT place them straight up @ 90°.

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #12 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundchex View Post
...from journal of the audio engineering society, current issue: 2017 october - volume 65 number 10 ( http://www.aes.org/journal/ }

looks like these are itu-r bs.2051-0 layouts d, f, [subset of] g, and h. It will be interesting to see if|how this aes focus on streaming|broadcast speaker layouts in korea and japan is reflected in fothcoming premium priced processors...?!
Translating proposed 'Enter the Bubble' format agnostic 9.x.6 layout into ITU lay-out G and H:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-23 om 11.33.33.png
Views:	170
Size:	163.5 KB
ID:	2319900

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-23 om 11.24.10.png
Views:	132
Size:	216.2 KB
ID:	2319902

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 11-23-2017 at 06:16 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #13 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
so i just thought you might compromise the Atmos top middle to much by placing them that far ahead AND that much closer to each other. It kind of compounded the problem.

And since you have both front and rear heights(6 overhead speakers), i see no reason to NOT place them straight up @ 90°.
Remember that following Atmos guidelines you can put Top Middles even further to the front (longitudinal elevation range is 65d - 100d), so anything between 80 and 100 degrees longitudinal elevation is not likely to compromise Atmos in any way. With regard to the lateral 'closeness, in this proposed layout the Top Middles are still 65 degrees separated, which I believe is sufficient for adequate stereo separation and left to right overhead panning.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:05 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #14 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 07:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Remember that following Atmos guidelines you can put Top Middles even further to the front (median elevation range is 65d - 100d), so anything between 80 and 100 degrees median elevation is not likely to compromise Atmos in any way. With regard to the lateral 'closeness, in this proposed layout the Top Middles are still 65 degrees separated, which I believe is sufficient for adequate stereo separation and left to right overhead panning.
Sure, and with just one set of heights, putting them ahead of MLP (65-85°) is perfect.

But you already have front heights/top front. No need to push top middle in front of you. Closer to each other in it self: ok, but closer AND ahead of MLP: weeeell, i am not sure...

A general rule is to «spread them out», and this puts two out of three pairs in front of you, so....

But i haven’t tested it, so i don’t know, so go for it.

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #15 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Sure, and with just one set of heights, putting them ahead of MLP (65-85°) is perfect.

But you already have front heights/top front. No need to push top middle in front of you. Closer to each other in it self: ok, but closer AND ahead of MLP: weeeell, i am not sure...

A general rule is to «spread them out», and this puts two out of three pairs in front of you, so....

But i haven’t tested it, so i don’t know, so go for it.
I will test it too, but I doubt that anyone will notice a significant difference between 80 and 100 degrees longitudinal elevation. We are just not very good at localizing sounds above us. Perceptual errors up to 30 degrees are not uncommon.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-23 om 15.11.14.png
Views:	190
Size:	327.2 KB
ID:	2319924
OKGeek likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:06 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #16 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 07:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I will test it too, but I doubt that anyone will notice a significant difference between 80 and 100 degrees median elevation. We are just not very good at localizing sounds above us. Perceptual errors up to 30 degrees are not uncommon.

Attachment 2319924
Sure, and hey: i have both top front AND top rear in front of MLP in my bastard setup, so i am not one to dish out what works and not, lool.

And i don’t understand what that pic means with the arrows, numbers and what not. .....
maikeldepotter likes this.

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #17 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
And i don’t understand what that pic means with the arrows, numbers and what not. .....
Explanation with picture: A sound source positioned right above someone's head (that's the arrow at 90d) can be perceived to originate either in front of that position (74+/-13 = 61d to 87d longitudinal elevation) or behind that position (68+/-22 = 46d to 90d longitudinal elevation, in Atmos terms: 90d-134d degrees elevation). That produces an average span of inaccuracy amounting to 112-74= 38d.

Edit: If your Top Rears are positioned at 127.5d longitudinal elevation (like in the proposed 'Enter he Bubble' example) they are according to this research within this perceptual range of inaccuracy. That means that a sound coming from Top Middle speakers at 90d longitudinal elevation may be perceived as coming from the Top Rear location. That could be a good reason to position the Top Middles not at 90d but at 80d longitudinal elevation, so that the separation between the two pairs is maximized and the risk of perceptual 'overlap' is minimized.
Nalleh likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:08 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #18 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 01:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: moot point
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Would somebody please take a crack at defining these various terms for elevation listed below?

median elevation (Atmos)
lateral elevation (Auro3D)
radial (MLP ref) elevation

I thought I understood Azimuth and Elevation (either inclination, declination, or altitude) but I'm not so sure now!

plug in to play
Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
jamin is online now  
post #19 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 01:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: moot point
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Ok, so I'm a little slow. Gotta love the name:

format agnostic immersive layout

F.A.I.L.

plug in to play
Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
jamin is online now  
post #20 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 02:33 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
appelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: A Hilton property near you!
Posts: 960
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 735 Post(s)
Liked: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Could that be related to your listening area being only two seats (3 feet) wide?
Nah. Everything moves in the Lab. Although the seats aren't on rails or actuators like other stuff. Heh

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video, Level III Trinnov Altitude Calibrator
Mercenary Calibrator for Manufacturers, Integrators and System Owners
appelz is offline  
post #21 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 05:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post
Would somebody please take a crack at defining these various terms for elevation listed below?

median elevation (Atmos)
lateral elevation (Auro3D)
radial (MLP ref) elevation

I thought I understood Azimuth and Elevation (either inclination, declination, or altitude) but I'm not so sure now!


From the master himself :

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post

Azimuth is strictly in the horizontal pane, 'as seen from above'
Median is in the length of the room, 'as seen from the side' (used for Atmos elevation specs)
Radial is as seen from MLP (used for Auro3D height speakers elevation specs)
Lateral is in the width of the room, 'as seen from rear/front (used for the Auro3D top speakers elevation specs)

OKGeek likes this.

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #22 of 76 Old 11-23-2017, 08:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jamin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: moot point
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
From the master himself :
Thank you.

plug in to play
Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
jamin is online now  
post #23 of 76 Old 11-24-2017, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
I have slightly changed the position of the Top Rears / Surround Heights (see post no. 2) in order to decrease the difference in sound arrival time for listeners at the extreme end of the listening area: Azimuth from 130d to 135d, and lateral elevation from 47.5d to 50d.

And I have added separation angles for the ceiling speakers, showing that despite a much more narrow position of the Top Middles (lateral separation of 65d compared 80d-85d for the other two pairs), the normal separation angle (from MLP perspective) between the two overhead arrays remains almost the same (64-66 degrees).

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:10 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #24 of 76 Old 11-24-2017, 06:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 4,295
Mentioned: 398 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2931 Post(s)
Liked: 4077
How about a median and lateral drawing, to easier vizualise what it looks like ?

Dual AVR 13.1.8 SWAtmos - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE Dual TR Sleds- 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XB1X - ATV4K - Vertex2 - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
>>>>Nalleh’s HT<<<<
Nalleh is online now  
post #25 of 76 Old 11-28-2017, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by nalleh View Post
how about a median and lateral drawing, to easier vizualise what it looks like ?
Lateral (from side to center), showing longitudinal elevations:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-28 om 12.50.56.png
Views:	205
Size:	70.3 KB
ID:	2322198

Median, or better: Anterior (from rear to front), showing lateral elevations

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-11-28 om 14.04.46.png
Views:	178
Size:	64.4 KB
ID:	2322220

Added to post no. 2
Nalleh likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 12-08-2017 at 03:12 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #26 of 76 Old 11-29-2017, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Five Steps to a F.A.I.L (format agnostic immersive lay-out)

Definitions:
  • Headspace (HS) is the vertical distance from ears to ceiling speakers.
  • Speaker-Layout Width is the side-to-side distance between opposite side wall speakers.
  • Speaker-Layout Length is the front-to-back distance between L/R front and Rear Surround speakers.
Acronym:
  • RLP is Reference Listening Position

STEP 1 DETERMINE SPEAKER-LAYOUT DIMENSIONS AND SEATING HEIGHT

  • Start with an existing room, and declare a front wall.
  • Check if the Headspace (HS) is between 1 and 2 times your seated ear height (ATMOS spec).
  • Check if Speaker-Layout Width can be arranged to be at least 2.6*HS (ATMOS spec related) and no more than 3.4*HS (Auro3D spec related)
  • Check if Speaker-Layout Length can be arranged to be at least 1.8*HS and no more than 3.4*HS, which is the sum of:
    at least 0.8*HS (allowing Top Rear speaker placement, see STEP 3) and no more than 1.6*HS (Auro3D spec related) rearward of the RFP, and
    at least 1.0*HS (ATMOS and Auro3D spec: L/R fronts azimuth <40d, see STEP 2) and no more than 1.8*HS (Auro3D spec related, resulting in min. 24d azimuth for L/R fronts) forward of the RFP

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-29 3.png
Views:	196
Size:	188.9 KB
ID:	2336856
Nalleh and OKGeek like this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 02-11-2018 at 10:15 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #27 of 76 Old 11-29-2017, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Five Steps to a F.A.I.L (format agnostic immersive lay-out)

Definitions:
  • The Center-Front reference denotes an imaginary line between the RLP and the middle of the screen or the placement of the center speaker
  • The Center-Side reference denotes an imaginary line between the RLP and the Speaker-Layout boundary to either side
Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-21 om 11.00.06.png
Views:	143
Size:	130.2 KB
ID:	2333426


STEP 2 DETERMINE REFERENCE LISTENING POSITION AND L/C/R FRONT SPEAKER LOCATIONS

  • Position the RLP right in the middle between Left and Right side boundary, and according to the positional ranges given in STEP 1.
  • Position the L/R Front speakers between 0.8*HS and 1.0*HS to either side of the Center-Front reference (ATMOS spec: lateral separation about the same as that of the overhead speakers, see STEP 3, and azimuth between 24d and 40d), and the C speaker right in the middle, all at an (normal) elevation of 0 - 10 degrees
Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-24 om 13.15.57.png
Views:	129
Size:	134.3 KB
ID:	2336838
Nalleh likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 03-08-2018 at 03:38 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #28 of 76 Old 11-29-2017, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Five Steps to a F.A.I.L (format agnostic immersive lay-out)

Explanation spherical coordinate system: link


STEP 3 DETERMINE CEILING SPEAKER POSITIONS

  • Position the Top Fronts/ Front Heights AT THIS EXACT POSITION: 1.09*HS forward of, and 0.92*HS left and right from the Reference Listening Position (speaker distance=1.74*HS)

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-22 om 15.38.05.png
Views:	222
Size:	138.1 KB
ID:	2333976
    Resulting spherical positions:
    42.5d longitudinal elevation (ATMOS spec: 30d-55d)
    47.5d lateral elevation
    35d normal elevation (Auro3D spec: 25-35d; DTS:X: 45d±10d; ATSC3.0 spec: 35d±10d)
    40d azimuth (Auro3D spec: 22d-40d; ATMOS spec: 30d-60d; DTS:X: 45d±5d; ATSC3.0 spec: 45d±5d)
    lateral separation: 85d
    normal separation: 64d


  • Position the Top Middles (Top Speakers) WITHIN THIS RANGE (recommended position in italics): between 0.18*HS forward and 0.18*HS rearward of, and 0.64*HS left and right from the Reference Listening Position (speaker distance=1.20*HS)

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-22 om 15.43.50.png
Views:	172
Size:	140.9 KB
ID:	2333978
    Resulting spherical positions:
    80d - 100d longitudinal elevation (ATMOS spec: 65d-100d)
    57.5d lateral elevation (Auro3D spec: 57.5d-72.5d)
    56.5d - 57.5d normal elevation
    75d - 105d azimuth (Auro3D spec: 75d-115d)
    lateral separation: 65d
    normal separation: 64d - 65d
    Longitudinal separation Top Fronts - Top Middles: 37.5d - 57.5d (see also this post)


  • Position the Top Rears/ Surround Heights WITHIN THIS SMALL RANGE: 0.84*HS - 0.92*HS rearward of, and 0.84*HS l- 0,92*HS left and right from the Reference Listening Position (speaker distance=1.55*HS - )

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-12-22 om 15.49.16.png
Views:	172
Size:	137.9 KB
ID:	2333980
    Resulting spherical positions:
    130d - 132.5d longitudinal elevation (ATMOS spec: 125d-150d)
    47.5d - 50d lateral elevation
    37.5d - 40d normal elevation (Auro3D spec: 30d-40d; DTS:X: 45d±10d; ATSC3.0 spec: 35±10d)
    135d azimuth (Auro3D spec: 90d-135d; ATMOS spec: 120d-150d; DTS:X and ATSC3.0 spec: 135d±5d)
    lateral separation: 80d - 85d
    normal separation: 66d -
    Longitudinal separation Top Middles - Top Rears: 30d - 50d - 52.5d (see also this post)

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 03-10-2018 at 03:54 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #29 of 76 Old 11-29-2017, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Five Steps to a F.A.I.L (format agnostic immersive lay-out)

STEP 4 DETERMINE THE POSITIONS OF REMAINING BASE LAYER SPEAKERS

  • Position the L/R Side Surrounds at 100d-110d azimuth (ATMOS spec: 90d-110d; Auro3D spec: 90d-135d; F.A.I.L spec: 100d-110d to avoid speaker pointing right at listener's ear), and at 5d-10d (normal) elevation (Auro3D spec: 0d-10d; F.A.I.L spec: at least 2.5d-5d to not exceed 35d difference in normal elevation with Top Rears/ Surround Heights)
  • Position the Wides at 50d-70d azimuth (ATMOS spec: 50d-70d; Best Practice: preferrably at the median intersect between L/R Front and Side Surround), and at 0d-10d (normal) elevation (Auro3D spec: 0d-10d)
  • Position the L/R Rear Surrunds at 150d azimuth (ATMOS spec: 135d-150d; Auro3D spec: 135d-155d; F.A.I.L spec: at 150d to get maximum separation with Side Surrounds), and at 5d-10d (normal) elevation (ATMOS spec (deduced): 0d-10d; Auro3D: 0d-10d; F.A.I.L. spec: at least 2.5d-5d to not exceed 35d difference in normal elevation with Top Rears/ Surround Heights)

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 07-27-2018 at 06:54 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #30 of 76 Old 11-29-2017, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1670 Post(s)
Liked: 637
Five Steps to a F.A.I.L (format agnostic immersive lay-out)

STEP 5 Enjoy!

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 03-08-2018 at 04:48 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off