The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 102 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3031 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post
I have considering calling an electrician just to make sure a larger underlying problem doesn't exist. I'm in a condo so our breaker box is inside however we do have a utility area that may be effected. I wasn't aware of the timing in breakers you mentioned. The reason I was accrediting it to the Anthem is because of how it is class A/B for the 5 min channels and class D for the remaining and I believe everything is all turned on at once. Overall good to know nothing has been reported yet in this thread.
You should call an electrician.

Breakers don't just have a nominal rating, they also have curve category. E.g. Europe would have EN 60898 16A MCB with B, C or D rating. the B = 16A x 5 for in rush, with C = 16A x 10, and D = 16A x 20.

D are reserved for high in-rush transformer applications - possibly like your Anthem AVR circuit. BUT - you can't just go from a B to C or D without performing validation tests on the earthing and wiring system. It has to be checked to make sure the system will disconnect in time if there is a true fault.

Leave it to the Electrician to decide.....I am sure the brekaer ratings are something similar in the US - but I am not overly familiar with your House Consumer Units to advise further.

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post #3032 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post
Essentially the problem is occasionally when powering on the Anthem it trips the circuit. The circuit only has the AVR, TV, panamax, and cable box on it. Everything else is on a separate circuit.

Overall the additional features the X8500 provides is what caught my attention plus the possible upgrade to HDMI 2.1 in the future, just don't want to buy something that will result in same outcome of circuit tripping.

Any info anyone can provide or experience would be greatly appreciated.
Not the exact scenario, but here are others who have experienced similar circuit breaker tripping episodes and determined the cause...arc fault circuit isolation (AFCI) breakers...very sensitive.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post57154506
https://www.familyhandyman.com/elect...aker/view-all/

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post #3033 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post
Hey all potential buyer and just trying to do some final research on a few things.

Has anyone experienced the X8500 tripping a circuit (15amp) when powering on? Does anyone know what the draw is when powering on and if it spikes due to toroidal? Is anyone using a X8500 on a 15amp circuit with other devices running off it?

A little background on why I'm asking this is currently I have a Anthem MRX1120 and I have been fairly satisfied with it performance wise. I do have 1 issue with it though and I'm certain it is with Anthem in general though I'm uncertain if it is do to the toroidal transformer, which I know the X8500 has as well. Essentially the problem is occasionally when powering on the Anthem it trips the circuit. The circuit only has the AVR, TV, panamax, and cable box on it. Everything else is on a separate circuit.

Overall the additional features the X8500 provides is what caught my attention plus the possible upgrade to HDMI 2.1 in the future, just don't want to buy something that will result in same outcome of circuit tripping.

Any info anyone can provide or experience would be greatly appreciated.

It is not the transformer that causes surge current. It's charging the power supply capacitors, and the larger the capacitance, the higher the surge current. The power transformer can reduce the rate the capacitors charge because it's inductance will act as "resistance" in current transients. The X8500H has large power supply capacitors, but I agree with the suggestions that the most likely cause is the 15 amp circuit breaker. As breakers age, they can unnecessarily trip. I once had to replace a new 40 amp 220v. breaker I installed for an electric car EVSE because it would trip unnecessarily. A trip back to Lowes to exchange did the trick.

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post #3034 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Although unrelated to the OP's question regarding circuit breaker tripping...to my knowledge, Denon's X8500H does not have a "toroidal" transformer as does its sister Marantz SR8012 stablemate.

And I'm in agreement that a reasonable step would be replacing the 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker.

Agreed. My mistake. The post has been repaired and expanded.
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post #3035 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post
Hey all potential buyer and just trying to do some final research on a few things.

Has anyone experienced the X8500 tripping a circuit (15amp) when powering on? Does anyone know what the draw is when powering on and if it spikes due to toroidal? Is anyone using a X8500 on a 15amp circuit with other devices running off it?

A little background on why I'm asking this is currently I have a Anthem MRX1120 and I have been fairly satisfied with it performance wise. I do have 1 issue with it though and I'm certain it is with Anthem in general though I'm uncertain if it is do to the toroidal transformer, which I know the X8500 has as well. Essentially the problem is occasionally when powering on the Anthem it trips the circuit. The circuit only has the AVR, TV, panamax, and cable box on it. Everything else is on a separate circuit.

Overall the additional features the X8500 provides is what caught my attention plus the possible upgrade to HDMI 2.1 in the future, just don't want to buy something that will result in same outcome of circuit tripping.

Any info anyone can provide or experience would be greatly appreciated.
I have a similar problem with my Anthem D2 and A5 combo downstairs. When it powers on it gets starved and turns off. Part of the reason and I didn't repeat the setup in the media room and when with the X8500H. I've only had one issue with the 8500. It runs out of power for the speakers faster than you would expect and it doesn't do a good job of powering my SVS Ultra Towers which are tough on receivers / amps. As long as you are not trying to true full range speakers at reference volume I think you are good to go with the 8500.

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post #3036 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
It is not the transformer that causes surge current. It's charging the power supply capacitors, and the larger the capacitance, the higher the surge current. The power transformer can reduce the rate the capacitors charge because it's inductance will act as "resistance" in current transients. The X8500H has large power supply capacitors, but I agree with the suggestions that the most likely cause is the 15 amp circuit breaker. As breakers age, they can unnecessarily trip. I once had to replace a new 40 amp 220v. breaker I installed for an electric car EVSE because it would trip unnecessarily. A trip back to Lowes to exchange did the trick.

Please read this Wikipedia webpage. Certainly capacitors draw surge current, but surge current in transformers is a different issue, is fundamental to transformers, and would occur with or without the capacitor bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current
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post #3037 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Not the exact scenario, but here are others who have experienced similar circuit breaker tripping episodes and determined the cause...arc fault circuit isolation (AFCI) breakers...very sensitive.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post57154506
https://www.familyhandyman.com/elect...aker/view-all/

When I built my house 10-years ago I was forced to install an early version of Eaton (likely Cutler Hammer at that time) Arc Fault breakers in selected 20 A circuits. A Sears canister vacuum, likely with a motor driving by switching transistors, MOSFET's or the like, couldn't be used on a circuit that had one of these Arc Fault breakers without the breakers tripping. In the past year I replaced all the original Eaton Arc Fault breakers with the latest model. These new breakers are easy to install. They are much smaller so they are a much better fit in the service panel. The vacuum now runs on the circuits with the Arc Fault breakers with no issues.

--- It is fortunate that the new breakers work well because the latest version of National Electric Code requires much broader application of Arc Fault breakers in residences.
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post #3038 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
I have a similar problem with my Anthem D2 and A5 combo downstairs. When it powers on it gets starved and turns off. Part of the reason and I didn't repeat the setup in the media room and when with the X8500H. I've only had one issue with the 8500. It runs out of power for the speakers faster than you would expect and it doesn't do a good job of powering my SVS Ultra Towers which are tough on receivers / amps. As long as you are not trying to true full range speakers at reference volume I think you are good to go with the 8500.

That's why God invented external power amplifiers. Since you like Anthem gear you might look for an Anthem P5 or two, used in good condition. These 130 lb. or so 5-channel beasts; with a separate power supply, including toroidal transformer, for each channel; will drive about anything, including very low impedances. Two electrical supply circuits are required for maximum performance. Clearly other options are available.
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post #3039 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 02:07 PM
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Thx all lots of good info and recommendations. Some of which I already considered such as the capacitors, getting a 20amp breaker assuming the correct awg is already in place, etc . I have an electrician scheduled to come out mid week so I'll see what's what then. Still looking into getting a X8500 though once all of this is sorted out. I figure with the Audyssey App I can get functionality similar to ARC which was one of the main reasons I went with Anthem.
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post #3040 of 4787 Old 11-24-2018, 06:42 PM
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Im still having issues with sound coming out of the tv/audio output. When I try to use my apps from my tv, I will not get sound. But my cable/sat works fine. I did notice that there is not any speaker icons on the receiver when TV/Audio is selected. But all other outputs show the speaker icons
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post #3041 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 05:39 AM
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Im still having issues with sound coming out of the tv/audio output. When I try to use my apps from my tv, I will not get sound. But my cable/sat works fine. I did notice that there is not any speaker icons on the receiver when TV/Audio is selected. But all other outputs show the speaker icons
On the last two pages, you've been given all of the appropriate tips to resolve your ARC issue. If you cannot resolve it, then connect an optical cable from the TV to the OPT1 input on the AVR as a work around for the time being.
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post #3042 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 05:55 AM
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Can I check if the web based control has been enabled yet? If not, is there an ETA?
Thanks
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post #3043 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 05:59 AM
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Can I check if the web based control has been enabled yet? If not, is there an ETA?
Thanks
To find out if the Web page is active, point your favorite Web browser to the numeric IP address of your receiver.

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Can I check if the web based control has been enabled yet? If not, is there an ETA?
Thanks
It is enabled since the latest f/w, but not all the features are available (they will be in further updates). Works fine though. Nice to have this back.
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post #3045 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 08:40 AM
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Im still having issues with sound coming out of the tv/audio output. When I try to use my apps from my tv, I will not get sound. But my cable/sat works fine. I did notice that there is not any speaker icons on the receiver when TV/Audio is selected. But all other outputs show the speaker icons
I had trouble getting ARC working on a family member's system (Yamaha AVR with a 2018 Samsung Q8F QLED set). What finally got it working was to disconnect ALL HDMI cables on the receiver and then plug the output cable to the TV's ARC jack back in (all ARC settings were still enabled). The TV then recognized the ARC connection. Somehow, the other devices were interfering with how the TV saw the receiver. It would see whatever device was connected instead of the AVR itself. With no connected input selected with the other cables still connected, it would see the AVR as a device, but not an ARC one. With all removed and just the TV connected, it saw ARC and has worked ever since.

I did connect her other devices to the TV instead afterwards, though since that made it easier to control everything with one remote (the TV QLED one which shows all recognized devices with their own easy to select icons and full remote support for the devices automatically). She only has a 5.1 setup anyway and streams most content (rarely plays blurays) so most content is unaffected regardless.

So I didn't test whether I could reconnect say the UHD BD player or not or whether a power outage night later cause the problem all over again. This way she's had zero issues and its been like 8 months.

Whether something like that might work on the 8500H, I don't know, but I think it was the Samsung's fault so it might if your TV is at all similar (don't recall). She tried an LG (non-OLED) first and it had all kinds of WiFi software lockups and what not (not good with a non technical person) and I couldn't get ARC to work at all with it). The Samsung QLED has been flawless so far since the setup was complete.

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post #3046 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Please read this Wikipedia webpage. Certainly capacitors draw surge current, but surge current in transformers is a different issue, is fundamental to transformers, and would occur with or without the capacitor bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current
I apologize for my absolutist statement. I was dealing with the OP's problem in terms a non-EE would relate to. As the wiki graph shows, the transformer inrush current lasts for about 1/60 th of a second and is highly unlikely to trip the usual household breaker. Nor is the capacitor inrush current likely to do so, even though it lasts longer.

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post #3047 of 4787 Old 11-25-2018, 09:10 AM
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Agreed, your cables are likely the problem. No need to spend lots of money, just get ones that are certified and you should be good to go.
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post #3048 of 4787 Old 11-26-2018, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Can I check if the web based control has been enabled yet? If not, is there an ETA?
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
It is enabled since the latest f/w, but not all the features are available (they will be in further updates). Works fine though. Nice to have this back.
From D+M:
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Please note with this initial release, we are supporting “Audio”, “Video”, ”Speakers” and “Inputs” for Web UI. “General” and “Network” will be supported early next year via U19.
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post #3049 of 4787 Old 11-27-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Inrush current is also much higher for toroidal transformers than for EI frame transformers.
I don't think you can generalize this. As you mentioned, typically larger (kVA) transformer will have higher inrush current, all else being equal, but I wouldn't say toroidals have "much" higher inrush current.

The AVR-X8500H's transformer is probably rated 700 to 850 VA, or approx. 6. to 7 A full load. Worse case for inrush current is when the transformer is switched on, the voltage sine wave is at 0 V, and the remanent magnetic flux in the transformer is not in sync with the applied voltage. In high power industrial systems, we typically allow for 12X rated current for 0.1 seconds in the protective system to avoid nuisance tripping. For much smaller transformers the inrush current in the worse case scenario can be as high as 25 to even 40X rated current so if not controlled, the X8500H has a large enough transformer that could in fact trip a 15A breaker, though not likely, especially when it is almost certain that Denon/Marantz have implemented some sort of "soft start" feature.

Imo, if it is tripping the 15A dedicated circuit more than once in the blue moon, there is a better chance that the circuit breaker is defective.
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post #3050 of 4787 Old 11-27-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Unfortunately no hard data, but:

Per memory, no one has mentioned that problem on this thread.

Denon/Marantz "seem" to use careful, timed startup procedures, in their equipment.

While good sized, the EI transformer in the X8500H is not "huge" Turn-on current is usually proportional to transformer size, all other factors being equal. Inrush current is also much higher for toroidal transformers than for EI frame transformers. The following Wikipedia entry gives a good, general explanation of inrush current in transformers. The inrush characteristics of transformers are no doubt well known to AVR and power amplifier manufacturers. IMO any well designed AVR/power amplifier will allow for inrush currents in the design such that these currents have no effect on operations other than a slight delay on startup.

See the transformer section:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current


Have you considered replacing the breaker? Usually breakers are cheap and easy to replace. Breakers do wear out. The breakers having timing, (time vs. current) so that they allow more current for short periods of time. Some houses have electrical entrance panels that are mounted on/in an outside wall where the sun can shine on the panel, and reduce the life of the components (breakers) in the panel. This is common in California for example.
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post
I don't think you can generalize this. As you mentioned, typically larger (kVA) transformer will have higher inrush current, all else being equal, but I wouldn't say toroidals have "much" higher inrush current.

The AVR-X8500H's transformer is probably rated 700 to 850 VA, or approx. 6. to 7 A full load. Worse case for inrush current is when the transformer is switched on, the voltage sine wave is at 0 V, and the remanent magnetic flux in the transformer is not in sync with the applied voltage. In high power industrial systems, we typically allow for 12X rated current for 0.1 seconds in the protective system to avoid nuisance tripping. For much smaller transformers the inrush current in the worse case scenario can be as high as 25 to even 40X rated current so if not controlled, the X8500H has a large enough transformer that could in fact trip a 15A breaker, though not likely, especially when it is almost certain that Denon/Marantz have implemented some sort of "soft start" feature.

Imo, if it is tripping the 15A dedicated circuit more than once in the blue moon, there is a better chance that the circuit breaker is defective.

Here is a repost of the Wikipedia piece from above that compares inrush current between EI and toroidal transformers and notes that inrush currents in toroidal transformers are higher. The piece also expands a bit on your explanation of inrush currents. The discussion here concerns transformers of a size normally used in the audio equipment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

Here is an IEEE paper on mitigating inrush current in toroidal transformers. The point isn't to read the whole paper, but that inrush currents are a drawback of toroidal transformers as noted in the paper, and that an entire paper is presented on the subject of alternatives for mitigating this problem.

http://engineering.nyu.edu/power/sit.../Reduction.pdf

Here is more of an advertising piece on devices that can be used to reduce inrush currents in toroidal transformers:

https://www.ametherm.com/blog/inrush...s-got-you-down

Section 4 in this link provides an explanation of inrush currents. Toward the end of the of the section is an explanation of why toroidal transformers have higher inrush currents than EI transformers.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/inrush.htm
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post #3051 of 4787 Old 11-27-2018, 06:25 PM
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It is enabled since the latest f/w, but not all the features are available (they will be in further updates). Works fine though. Nice to have this back.
Thanks mate, they only have rudimentary control for now. I look forward to the full deal later on, cheers.
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post #3052 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Sorry, but that's utterly false. It's simple to go beyond 11.1 with DTS if you don't play by the rules (two combined receivers 11.1 receivers where one has front wide support like the 7010) can get 9.1.4 correct output and a simple DPL/DPLII extraction can get you a 99% correct top middle output. This gives you DTS X with 9.1.6 that works fine. I use DPL extraction plus matrixed wides right now and it works with everything (even Auro-3D). Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom in 3D with DTS X was great. It had very clear front to back through middle panning in the height channels.... The 9.1.6 Atmos test also works absolutely correctly for the overheads with extracted top middle (only reason wides don't work in that test is the snap to function).

So I have the X8500 and am looking at getting a second receiver (probably the x6400 or x6500) to try and get more channels working for DTS. How exactly would I set it up to get every channel including the top middle being discreet and no duplication on content between channels?

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post #3053 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 06:57 AM
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You can only do so much with two receivers (i.e. No "extraction" methods), but you can get true front wides if you get something like a 2015 model receiver that supports wides. You'd set it to 7.1 + FW + front height and not use the heights there. Set the 8500 to 7.x.6 and only use the overheads from it (don't forget to daisy chain the HDMI connections and use the "remote" lines to connect them so one remote controls both). You now have 9.x.6.

With extraction (see "Scatmos"), you can create any channel between two discrete channels, but it takes two AVRs or Dolby processors (one for each channel) (two inputs with center out making the channel in-between).

An active mixer can be used to create a matrixed in-between set of channels as well (e.g. A channel between side and rear surrounds), but the in-phase material is not removed from the channels it's created from (overlap instead of the more discrete-like output Pro Logic "center" extraction creates), but does improve over just phantom imaging for off-center listeners).

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)

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post #3054 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 08:02 AM
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Here is a repost of the Wikipedia piece from above that compares inrush current between EI and toroidal transformers and notes that inrush currents in toroidal transformers are higher. The piece also expands a bit on your explanation of inrush currents. The discussion here concerns transformers of a size normally used in the audio equipment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

Here is an IEEE paper on mitigating inrush current in toroidal transformers. The point isn't to read the whole paper, but that inrush currents are a drawback of toroidal transformers as noted in the paper, and that an entire paper is presented on the subject of alternatives for mitigating this problem.

http://engineering.nyu.edu/power/sit.../Reduction.pdf

Here is more of an advertising piece on devices that can be used to reduce inrush currents in toroidal transformers:

https://www.ametherm.com/blog/inrush...s-got-you-down

Section 4 in this link provides an explanation of inrush currents. Toward the end of the of the section is an explanation of why toroidal transformers have higher inrush currents than EI transformers.

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/inrush.htm
Wow, thank you for all the links. After a quick read on some of them, I am surprised to see there appeared to have studies that substantiate that you can in fact generalize the claim that toroidals have much higher inrush currents. The thing is, I have read specs of E-I frame transformers used for audio amp P/S that have well over 25X (I was thinking much higher, even 40X) so I thought perhaps there are very high quality custom wound low leakage flux, super high efficiency, hence low winding resistance E-I transformers. Luxman seems to use E-I frame Tx exclusively, and I think the specs of those are probably comparable to, and may be better than that of some toroidals. Not trying to argue the point, but simply caution that an amplifier that uses a toridal, does not necessarily mean it is better than one that uses an E-I Tx. For example, the custom wound E-I frame tx in the AVR-X8500H, could have better specs (efficiency, leakage flux) than the toroidal in the SR8012 and may have comparable inrush current on the test bench. I don't know if it is, but it is possible. Thanks again for those links.
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post #3055 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You can only do so much with two receivers (i.e. No "extraction" methods), but you can get true front wides if you get something like a 2015 model receiver that supports wides. You'd set it to 7.1 + FW + front height and not use the heights there. Set the 8500 to 7.x.6 and only use the overheads from it (don't forget to daisy chain the HDMI connections and use the "remote" lines to connect them so one remote controls both). You now have 9.x.6.

With extraction (see "Scatmos"), you can create any channel between two discrete channels, but it takes two AVRs or Dolby processors (one for each channel) (two inputs with center out making the channel in-between).

An active mixer can be used to create a matrixed in-between set of channels as well (e.g. A channel between side and rear surrounds), but the in-phase material is not removed from the channels it's created from (overlap instead of the more discrete-like output Pro Logic "center" extraction creates), but does improve over just phantom imaging for off-center listeners).
What exactly are you talking about here? Is there a way to see both receivers interface displays on the screen?

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post #3056 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 09:20 AM
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There's a thread on "Beyond 7.1.4" here if you want a lot of details and diagrams on combining receivers. I don't have my setup connected that way, but I think you could connect the output either way (one AVR might not pass Dolby Vision or something, though, but you could use its output to get set up, at least.

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #3057 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 09:21 AM
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What exactly are you talking about here? Is there a way to see both receivers interface displays on the screen?

It's much harder to create more than 7.1.4 with DTS: X since anything outside of the normal 7.1 speaker layout with 4 heights is matrix derived, even the Front Wides. Yup, DTS: X uses Neural: X upmixing to create that position from the side surrounds and front speakers. According to DTS's own immersive mixing software, you can still only output 11.1 DTS: X soundtracks.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #3058 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You can only do so much with two receivers (i.e. No "extraction" methods), but you can get true front wides if you get something like a 2015 model receiver that supports wides. You'd set it to 7.1 + FW + front height and not use the heights there. Set the 8500 to 7.x.6 and only use the overheads from it (don't forget to daisy chain the HDMI connections and use the "remote" lines to connect them so one remote controls both). You now have 9.x.6.

With extraction (see "Scatmos"), you can create any channel between two discrete channels, but it takes two AVRs or Dolby processors (one for each channel) (two inputs with center out making the channel in-between).

An active mixer can be used to create a matrixed in-between set of channels as well (e.g. A channel between side and rear surrounds), but the in-phase material is not removed from the channels it's created from (overlap instead of the more discrete-like output Pro Logic "center" extraction creates), but does improve over just phantom imaging for off-center listeners).

So the only way to do it with 2 receivers is to go 9.1.2 on one receiver and disconnect the heights and 5.1.6 on the second receiver and disconnect the base layer? That would mean 2 8500's with current models...


If I go the Scatmos route would I need 4 receivers total or 3?
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post #3059 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 05:05 PM
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So the only way to do it with 2 receivers is to go 9.1.2 on one receiver and disconnect the heights and 5.1.6 on the second receiver and disconnect the base layer? That would mean 2 8500's with current models...
I guess it would in the sense the only D&M receiver that supports front wides currently is the 8500. There's supposedly an upcoming Emotiva unit that will be capable of 9.1.6 if/when it comes out for around $6K retail. You can, however pick up older AVR models used on eBay that do front wides for under a grand. In fact, you can get to "true" 9.1.4 with one of those and one current 11-channel model or even 9.1.6 if you don't mind "overlap" one one set of channels (more or less the same as active matrix in that a set of channels contains info from the other channels. This lessens separation, but may still be better than 4 overheads depending on your point of view.

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If I go the Scatmos route would I need 4 receivers total or 3?
If your goal is 9.1.6, you'd need 3 receivers total including the 8500 (two would be used to derive the top middle location while using front wide on the 8500 so the "snap to" function of Atmos works correctly. These two models would need Audyssey in them to do Audyssey for all channels).

If you're not worried about room correction (or want to use a min-dsp or something instead), you can get considerably cheaper "Pro Logic" processors on somewhere like eBay instead of full Audyssey capable AVRs. I used dual Onkyo Pro-ES600 units here for "Top Middle" and an active mixer for the front wides (plus my old Yamaha AVR as a 6-channel amplifier in 7-ch input mode with room for the VOG channel if I want to add the speaker as well). I use one 7012 + 2 Onkyo ES-600 + an Active Mixer for Front Wides + another Active Mixer to create a Dialog Lift effect for the front heights (which means i use the Yamaha amp for front height from the mixer as well as rear height since the 7012 doesn't power the extra two channels and the front wides from the other mixer. The Onkyo units have 50W per channel for their center outputs so I don't need extra power there. That got me 9.1.6 with extracted top middle, active mixer/matrix front wides and dialog lift for around $1500 (not including reusing my old Yamaha receiver). Is it as good as TRUE 9.1.6? Probably not quite as good, especially for the front wides, but it's close enough for my room considering how much less it cost me. I've also got an older 7010 AVR that's got an issue. If I get it fixed, I can use it for "true" front wides in the same system giving me nearly the equivalent of the upcoming Emotiva unit that retails for 6 grand (if/when it ever gets released). Picture of my system are in my signature for "Theater" (it's a link).

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #3060 of 4787 Old 11-28-2018, 10:12 PM
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I guess it would in the sense the only D&M receiver that supports front wides currently is the 8500. There's supposedly an upcoming Emotiva unit that will be capable of 9.1.6 if/when it comes out for around $6K retail. You can, however pick up older AVR models used on eBay that do front wides for under a grand. In fact, you can get to "true" 9.1.4 with one of those and one current 11-channel model or even 9.1.6 if you don't mind "overlap" one one set of channels (more or less the same as active matrix in that a set of channels contains info from the other channels. This lessens separation, but may still be better than 4 overheads depending on your point of view.



If your goal is 9.1.6, you'd need 3 receivers total including the 8500 (two would be used to derive the top middle location while using front wide on the 8500 so the "snap to" function of Atmos works correctly. These two models would need Audyssey in them to do Audyssey for all channels).

If you're not worried about room correction (or want to use a min-dsp or something instead), you can get considerably cheaper "Pro Logic" processors on somewhere like eBay instead of full Audyssey capable AVRs. I used dual Onkyo Pro-ES600 units here for "Top Middle" and an active mixer for the front wides (plus my old Yamaha AVR as a 6-channel amplifier in 7-ch input mode with room for the VOG channel if I want to add the speaker as well). I use one 7012 + 2 Onkyo ES-600 + an Active Mixer for Front Wides + another Active Mixer to create a Dialog Lift effect for the front heights (which means i use the Yamaha amp for front height from the mixer as well as rear height since the 7012 doesn't power the extra two channels and the front wides from the other mixer. The Onkyo units have 50W per channel for their center outputs so I don't need extra power there. That got me 9.1.6 with extracted top middle, active mixer/matrix front wides and dialog lift for around $1500 (not including reusing my old Yamaha receiver). Is it as good as TRUE 9.1.6? Probably not quite as good, especially for the front wides, but it's close enough for my room considering how much less it cost me. I've also got an older 7010 AVR that's got an issue. If I get it fixed, I can use it for "true" front wides in the same system giving me nearly the equivalent of the upcoming Emotiva unit that retails for 6 grand (if/when it ever gets released). Picture of my system are in my signature for "Theater" (it's a link).

Might be getting off topic for this thread but is 9.1.6 going to work with the 8500 and 2 cheap Pro Logic processors given DTS:X 11 channel limit? The maximum I would be able to get is 9.1.2 on the 8500 which wouldn't work for the pro logic extraction. Sounds like I would need 2 receivers and 2 Pro Logic processors, or a second receiver that works with 6 heights. Don't want to use the 8500 for heights only as that just seems like a waste.
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