The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 105 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4332Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3121 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,540
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4841 Post(s)
Liked: 5164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You are correct regarding the number of discrete channels. However, you can do a 15.1 Auro 3D layout with the X8500H, it simply adds RHs as copies of SH (array) to the 13.1 you've described (it's not either SHs or RHs, it can be both). At least that's the way Datasat described it in their initial installation layout guide (attached, see page 6). It's also mentioned P24 of the Auro 3D Home Theatre Setup guidelines, where they suggest SH at 90 deg and RH at 130deg. I do a version of this and it works well.
I would argue that's not really 15.1, but just setting up arrays which you can do for any channel. You can double up your side surrounds by splitting the signal too.

Regardless the X8500H doesn't support that natively AFAIK, as far as it's concerned it's ouputting 13.1ch.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3122 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 01:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,109
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5428 Post(s)
Liked: 5614
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I would argue that's not really 15.1, but just setting up arrays which you can do for any channel. You can double up your side surrounds by splitting the signal too.

Regardless the X8500H doesn't support that natively AFAIK, as far as it's concerned it's ouputting 13.1ch.
I'm not sure why you're rephrasing what I said. You said 13.1 was the limit as far as discrete channels are concerned, I said you were correct, so we can safely say we agree on this

However both Datasat and Auro 3D mention a way to do a 15.1 layout with Auro 3D, and that's ganging SH and RH together. I also said it was an array, so it seems we agree on this too.

Sure, you can do arrays with any channel, but I was just mentioning that 15.1 is an "official" or "approved" Auro 3D layout, and I explained how to achieve it. it does work quite well, at least here.

It's not different from other formats/upmixers that gang all the left ceiling speakers together and all the right ceiling speakers together. That's two arrays of tops/heights, yet it's improperly called .6. Technically, it should be called .2, not .6. The .6 refers to the layout, not the discrete channels/processing.

As long as we make the distinction between discrete channels (processing) and layouts (speakers), which I did, I don't see what your last post adds to the discussion.

JVC Autocal Software V12 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
Manni01 is online now  
post #3123 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 01:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 6,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 1530
^^
So is the LFE always .1 or like some use 7.2.6 to refer to 2 sets of sub with different delay / eq ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mtbdudex is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3124 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 01:18 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 14,826
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4808 Post(s)
Liked: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
^^
So is the LFE always .1 or like some use 7.2.6 to refer to 2 sets of sub with different delay / eq ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It depends.

The formal Atmos usage by Dolby uses the .1. infix to indicate the number of LFE channels in an Atmos soundtrack. That's always 1.

The informal usage by people here is to indicate the number of speakers in a soundsystem. This can be anything from 0 to a very large number.

When (informally) used by people to indicate the number of independent speaker outputs of a receiver, it can be 1 or 2 for "mainstream" equipment.

Many high end A/V receivers and pre/pros, by which I mean those which typically cost more than $10K, allow any number of their outputs to be reallocated for subwoofer usage.

Selden

Marantz SR7009 avr + MM9000 amp --> Atmos 7.1.4
Fronts=NHT 2.9+AC2, FH+TM=DefTech PM1000, LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is offline  
post #3125 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 01:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,974
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1142 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm not sure why you're rephrasing what I said. You said 13.1 was the limit as far as discrete channels are concerned, I said you were correct, so we can safely say we agree on this

However both Datasat and Auro 3D mention a way to do a 15.1 layout with Auro 3D, and that's ganging SH and RH together. I also said it was an array, so it seems we agree on this too.
I'm pretty sure the Barco 11.1 theaters all use copies of side surround and surround height in the rear of the cinema. If I had a simpler way to copy side to rear here (I'd have to get yet another switchbox), I'd be all for it since it helps with more than one row of seats (i.e. I can already move the height channel to side, rear or both or create an extracted side from between front and rear height). That's semi-discrete (using Pro Logic extraction). Do I add that to my Auro number count? I also do matrixed front wides which also works with Auro-3D. So while it's only outputting 9.1, I actually end up with 4 extra channels (not counting simulated CH/VOG). I don't think I'd call it 13.1, though as that would be confusing. More like 9.1+4. I could add the actual VOG channel her (I even have an extra amp channel ready and waiting that could use it), but I don't see much point for the whole 10 movies I have in Auro-3D. I'd be better off putting up dual-mono overheads that I could use for Atmos position Top Middle or Dual-Mono VOG (switchbox needed yet again). Frankly, I think the side heights work just fine with an 8 foot ceiling in a 12 foot wide room. There'd be little difference having ceiling speakers all of two feet inward.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
MagnumX is offline  
post #3126 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 01:58 PM
Member
 
AYanguas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Spain
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 20
"Custom" assign for CENTER to other speaker Does not work?

Finally, I'm the proud owner of the AVC-X8500H, just starting to make the initial testing.

Very amazed of the "Custom" Amp Assign Mode. You can set whatever channel signal to whatever Amp Speaker Output. There are some exceptions, like Height 4 cannot be "custom" assigned and some limitations with the CENTER channel.

Doing "Custom" with the CENTER, I was trying to configure a "Dialog Lift" by output the same Center Channel both to the Center Speaker (below screen), and to the Center High (above screen). I was trying to do this kind of Center Dialog Lift without using any other method of connecting both speakers (serial or parallel, with care with impedances) nor using any other external AMP with the pre-out signal.

The "Custom" setting does work, as shown in the attached capture, and enable to configure several "Center" output to several Height Output Speakers. One of them with the real CH speaker connected.

BUT I get NO output of the CENTER signal to any of those speakers configured. Except, of course, for the "real" CENTER Speaker that outputs properly the Center signal.

I have tested with other channels, such as FRONT, duplicating output to several Heights (1,2, and 3) and it Works. I get duplicate Front Output on all those speakers.

There must be a restriction of the routing of the CENTER signal to Height Speakers Outputs, or perhaps it is a bug on the firmware implementation.

Anyone knows about it or have tested that configuration?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Custom - Center to Several Speakers.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	105.5 KB
ID:	2492750  
AYanguas is online now  
post #3127 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 03:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bigguyca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: East Turkestan
Posts: 1,754
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked: 915
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You shouldn't need that much power driving 13 channels at once. Every doubling of speakers adds 3dB output to the room at the same power level (more in a corner). That is the equivalent of doubling amplifier power. Thus, what you need to drive 2 channels to 105dB is 2x what is needed to drive 4 speakers of the same efficiency to that level in a typical room assuming equal distances. 8 channels would be 1/4 of the power to drive two, etc. That assumed an average level, but it tends to work out. Think of it as the same total power either way. If 150 Watts gets you 105dB with two, 150 total (or 75 each) will get you 105dB with four on average. With 13, you'd need right around 23 watts per channel to get about the same output level as 150x2. In reality, channel requirements will vary by how many are playing at once and their level, but the overall point is you won't need anywhere near 150x13 or whatever its max is in two channel mode.

What is significant about 105 dB SPL as the sum total of the outputs from all the speakers?
bigguyca is offline  
post #3128 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 03:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,974
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1142 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
What is significant about 105 dB SPL as the sum total of the outputs from all the speakers?
It's really just an example to illustrate how more speakers mean less power per speaker so one should not be overly concerned if the maximum it can put out is 60-75W with all speakers driven (that's actually pretty impressive). However, I did pick the number because it is the Dolby recommended peak reference level for the primary speakers for a movie (sub should peak at 115dB). That's typically for movie theaters. Most people find it too loud for their home theaters, but it's a number many aim to hit anyway at home so they can state they can play at reference levels.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)

Last edited by MagnumX; 12-06-2018 at 03:42 PM.
MagnumX is offline  
post #3129 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,540
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4841 Post(s)
Liked: 5164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm not sure why you're rephrasing what I said.
I think my primary quibble was with the phrasing, "you can do a 15.1 Auro 3D layout with the X8500H, it simply adds RHs as copies of SH (array) to the 13.1 you've described."

Specifically the "it simply adds" part... "it" (the AVR) doesn't do that. Perhaps I misread and you means "it" as "Auro3D"? The receiver doesn't have 15 outputs and doesn't know about the other speaker, and to me your wording implied that the X8500H was directly supporting this as a feature, when in fact it's the end user going "out of the box" to add the extra speakers.

But this is the most minor of pedantic quibbles, not worth drawing it out any further.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
post #3130 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 06:40 PM
Member
 
HTRAK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You shouldn't need that much power driving 13 channels at once. Every doubling of speakers adds 3dB output to the room at the same power level (more in a corner). That is the equivalent of doubling amplifier power. Thus, what you need to drive 2 channels to 105dB is 2x what is needed to drive 4 speakers of the same efficiency to that level in a typical room assuming equal distances. 8 channels would be 1/4 of the power to drive two, etc. That assumed an average level, but it tends to work out. Think of it as the same total power either way. If 150 Watts gets you 105dB with two, 150 total (or 75 each) will get you 105dB with four on average. With 13, you'd need right around 23 watts per channel to get about the same output level as 150x2. In reality, channel requirements will vary by how many are playing at once and their level, but the overall point is you won't need anywhere near 150x13 or whatever its max is in two channel mode.
Oh I see. Thank you for the information.
HTRAK is offline  
post #3131 of 4764 Old 12-06-2018, 09:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,109
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5428 Post(s)
Liked: 5614
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think my primary quibble was with the phrasing, "you can do a 15.1 Auro 3D layout with the X8500H, it simply adds RHs as copies of SH (array) to the 13.1 you've described."

Specifically the "it simply adds" part... "it" (the AVR) doesn't do that. Perhaps I misread and you means "it" as "Auro3D"? The receiver doesn't have 15 outputs and doesn't know about the other speaker, and to me your wording implied that the X8500H was directly supporting this as a feature, when in fact it's the end user going "out of the box" to add the extra speakers.

But this is the most minor of pedantic quibbles, not worth drawing it out any further.
No, the “it” simply refers to the layout. You described a 13.1 layout based on the max number of discrete processing channels. I mentioned that this was correct, but that both Datasat and Auro 3D mention a 15.1 layout, that simply adds RH as copies of SH (or vice versa, as usually the assigned pairs will be RH and the arrays will be copies of RH.), as in your description you stated that it was either SH or RH. 15.1 is achievable if you relace that “or” in your description by “and”. “It” refers to the 15.1 layout, not to the X8500H, so I understand the misunderstanding .

Of course the AVR doesn’t know about this array, as we’ve made it clear that it had only 13.1 channels. I mentioned my own layout because I do have a version of this, so if someone wants to see how it’s done practically, they can look in my sig. For various reasons (mainly a convoluted loft with slanted ceiling) I have a 10.2.11 layout with a few arrays. I use two older AVRs to power the extra speakers. It’s a 4310 in my case than handles my rear array (RH+SH) and phantoms a SBH.

As you know my layout, and as I confirmed that you were correct regarding the max number of discrete channels, I thought it was obvious, but it’s always good to clarify.

JVC Autocal Software V12 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders

Last edited by Manni01; 12-06-2018 at 10:03 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #3132 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,540
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4841 Post(s)
Liked: 5164
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTRAK View Post
Oh I see. Thank you for the information.
A minor clarification to the quoted post -- full "reference level" is actually 105dB peaks for EACH SPEAKER, not combined SPL.

Most people don't listen anywhere close to reference level though, so the point still stands that most people don't need as much power as they think they do. If you listen at -10dB then you are using 1/10th the power as you would need for full reference.
sdurani, Matt2026 and Trell like this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
post #3133 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 11:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bigguyca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: East Turkestan
Posts: 1,754
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked: 915
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
1) You shouldn't need that much power driving 13 channels at once. Every doubling of speakers adds 3dB output to the room at the same power level (more in a corner). That is the equivalent of doubling amplifier power. Thus, what you need to drive 2 channels to 105dB is 2x what is needed to drive 4 speakers of the same efficiency to that level in a typical room assuming equal distances. 2)8 channels would be 1/4 of the power to drive two, etc. That assumed an average level, but it tends to work out. 2) Think of it as the same total power either way. If 150 Watts gets you 105dB with two, 150 total (or 75 each) will get you 105dB with four on average. With 13, you'd need right around 23 watts per channel to get about the same output level as 150x2. In reality, channel requirements will vary by how many are playing at once and their level, but the overall point is you won't need anywhere near 150x13 or whatever its max is in two channel mode.
What is significant about 105 dB SPL as the sum total of the outputs from all the speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
2) It's really just an example to illustrate how more speakers mean less power per speaker so one should not be overly concerned if the maximum it can put out is 60-75W with all speakers driven (that's actually pretty impressive). However, I did pick the number because it is the Dolby recommended peak reference level for the primary speakers for a movie (sub should peak at 115dB). That's typically for movie theaters. Most people find it too loud for their home theaters, but it's a number many aim to hit anyway at home so they can state they can play at reference levels.

105 dB SPL is the reference level for each full-range speaker (115 dB sub.), not for the total of all the speakers as you used in your example. This may confuse readers.

This is why reference level is so loud, even with only a few speakers hitting close to 105 dB SPL. It is also why powerful, multi-channel amplifiers, with substantial power supplies are required to play at even close to reference levels, with excellent sound quality, in systems with lower sensitivity loudspeakers and/or large numbers of speakers.

1)(referenced to above)The sound sources for each channel can be considered incoherent since in a home theater installation content played on each full-range speaker is mostly uncorrelated and the speakers are spread throughout the room, which adds phase differences. This means that adding the output from two identical speakers at half the power of one speaker will provide the same sound output as one speaker; not +3dB.

For incoherent sources this calculator and its explanations applies:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-leveladding.htm

Adding multiple speakers, and reducing the input to each speaker, greatly increases the current requirements of the installation without adding output. The whole idea of dividing power between the speakers as described is also not correct and provides incorrect answers, see below.

2) Superposition is appropriate for voltage and current, but not power, which is not linear and is calculated using a power of 2. It is not correct to divide power as you have done.

Amplifiers are voltage sources that attempt to maintain the required voltage by supplying whatever level of current is required. This current has be supplied by a power supply and is the major reason why AVR's can't maintain their two channel rating as more channels are driven.

In reference to your example:

150 watts into 8 ohms requires 4.33 amps RMS or 8.66 amps RMS for two channels. These current needs have to be fulfilled with proportionate DC outputs from the power supply.

23 watts into 8 ohms requires 1.70 amps RMS for one channel or 22.0 amps RMS for 13 channels, with a proportionate DC output from the power supply.

A much more substantial power supply is required to supply current to meet the 22.0 amp vs. 8.66 amp requirement, if the amplifier channels are to act as decent voltage sources. Getting something for nothing isn't happening here. Actually adding the speakers gets less than nothing based on the effect it has on power supply loading. Just as an example, almost three times the capacitance will be required to maintain the same ripple level from the power supply at 19.9 amps vs. 7.8 amps. Clearly a bigger power transformer is also required and the output stages will generate more heat so larger heat sinks will also be required. For many AVR’s, the DC current draw from the power supply resulting from the load from the 13 channels, is close to triggering the protection circuitry. Protection, depending on the unit, may involve turning on fans at various speeds, cutting the rail voltage, or ultimately shutting down the unit.

The above example also shows why adding channels, even channels in the ceiling that don't appear to put much stress on the amplifiers in an AVR, actually do add stress. Supplying those first few watts (actually amps as noted, watts will lead one astray) to a speaker places a significant added load on an AVR's power supply, if say four channels are added. Move to speakers with a lower sensitivity and/or a lower impedance and the demands increase again.
bigguyca is offline  
post #3134 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 11:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,974
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1142 Post(s)
Liked: 661
Your argument is predicated on the false notion that multiple speakers do not add to the average volume level just because they are not playing the same exact signal. A few random phase cancellations in node points in the room hardly characterizes the overall average output in the room as barring special circumstances, just as may random phase interactions will add as cancel with different signals from different locations. One only has to turn on multi-channel stereo mode with the same output to discover it is MUCH louder than 2-channel stereo. While all content may not actually double in principle (it can actually quadruple near corner boundaries) the fact remains that 13 speakers playing the same average output level are going to be far louder than two. Run 13 faucets at the same time and amount as two and you will get much more water. Turn the water output down so you have the same amount total and each faucet is outputting less water than with just two. If you really believe you need 150 or 200 watts per channel on 13 channels at the same time you better get a lot of external amps and multiple circuit breakers.....

*** But let's look at the web site you posted for non-correlated signals. I enter 100dB into L1 and 100dB into L2. It gives an output of 103dB, the same as I said above.... 3dB acoustically is the same as a doubling of amplifier power under normal circumstances. That makes sense since each speaker is being fed the same amount of power. However, the reverse is also true. If you halve the power to 97dB each, you get 100dB output when combined (the same as one running at full power by itself). In other words, everything I said above is the same as your non-correlated calculator in terms of the amount of power needed to drive the same levels using multiple speakers.

The question was never why can't my AVR output max levels for all channels at once, but whether it has enough power to drive 13 channels. You should not need 150 Watts per channel for 13 channels at once. You might need it for two or three (the screen speakers notably by Dolby Standards). These AVRs power UP TO the maximum per channel and less as the others draw current.

The Dolby standard may be up to 105dB per speaker (I'll have to look it up when I get home), but there is no way in hell they expect up to 128 speakers in a cinema to play 105dB EACH AT THE SAME TIME.

Edit:

Ok, I'm looking at the Atmos paper now. 105dB is the maximum continuous power level for each SCREEN SPEAKER (i.e. L/C/R on a 3-speaker) system. The surround speakers should be up to a maximum of 99dB per speaker or 105dB per surround ARRAY.

So, let's take a real world example now. Let's say someone is using typical 90dB efficient speakers (90dB at 1 watt @ 1 meter). Klipsch is popular and has horn-loaded drivers that are much more efficient than that, but it's a typical efficiency level for normal woofer/tweeter. Now, I'm going to simplify slightly because the RLP location 2/3 across room is not at 1 meter and can vary by room size, etc., but this will at least give an idea (add some headroom to it).

The power supply for the 8500H is rated for 900 watts, but that includes electronics, etc. as well. Denon does NOT provide the maximum power per channel when all driven at once, but you can be certain it isn't 150W like their misleading numbers suggest. To reach 105dB for each of the front three speakers, it's going to need 32 watts each (pink noise). To reach the 99dB level for each surround speaker, it's going to need 8 watts each for up to TEN surround speakers (again this is at 1 meter; it will need more further away). So your basic 1 meter total is (32x3)+(8x10) = 176 watts RMS. This wouldn't even make the 8500H break a sweat (so-to-speak). Triple the total to account for a medium sized room and you're still nowhere near breaking the bank.
Trell likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)

Last edited by MagnumX; 12-07-2018 at 01:36 PM.
MagnumX is offline  
post #3135 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 01:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CBdicX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hello from Holland !
Posts: 3,285
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1632 Post(s)
Liked: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by AYanguas View Post
Finally, I'm the proud owner of the AVC-X8500H, just starting to make the initial testing.

Very amazed of the "Custom" Amp Assign Mode. You can set whatever channel signal to whatever Amp Speaker Output. There are some exceptions, like Height 4 cannot be "custom" assigned and some limitations with the CENTER channel.

Doing "Custom" with the CENTER, I was trying to configure a "Dialog Lift" by output the same Center Channel both to the Center Speaker (below screen), and to the Center High (above screen). I was trying to do this kind of Center Dialog Lift without using any other method of connecting both speakers (serial or parallel, with care with impedances) nor using any other external AMP with the pre-out signal.

The "Custom" setting does work, as shown in the attached capture, and enable to configure several "Center" output to several Height Output Speakers. One of them with the real CH speaker connected.

BUT I get NO output of the CENTER signal to any of those speakers configured. Except, of course, for the "real" CENTER Speaker that outputs properly the Center signal.

I have tested with other channels, such as FRONT, duplicating output to several Heights (1,2, and 3) and it Works. I get duplicate Front Output on all those speakers.

There must be a restriction of the routing of the CENTER signal to Height Speakers Outputs, or perhaps it is a bug on the firmware implementation.

Anyone knows about it or have tested that configuration?
Just tried your setup, with 3x Center on various Heights, but for me all work !
Had Center on Center, and Center on Height 1 - Height 2 and Height 3
No problems……….
CBdicX is offline  
post #3136 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 04:03 PM
Member
 
AYanguas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Spain
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Just tried your setup, with 3x Center on various Heights, but for me all work !
Had Center on Center, and Center on Height 1 - Height 2 and Height 3
No problems……….
OK, I should be asleep yesterday. I forgot Center Signal is a mono signal. Always thinking in pairs...
I connected the CH to the wrong speaker terminal L-R. Just changing to the other one and it works.

Thank you, CBdicX, for your quick test.
AYanguas is online now  
post #3137 of 4764 Old 12-07-2018, 09:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi everyone, and @jdsmoothie @SEL danball @PlanetAVS @Quicksilv3r

Have Denon and other brands stopped producing AVRs with discrete power amps? I have an AVR-3313ci and AVR-2312ci, and both state on Denon's website as 125w and 105w PER CHANNEL FOR ALL 7 channels of equal power through discrete amp circuits.

Is it true that these would provide the same power across all channels? Most new AVRs including the 6500 and 8500 (as I was looking into the 8500), they all mention the 240-250w at 2ch driven .. meaning power would drop and distribute and spread.

AVR-4520 seemed to have the max at 190w per channel across all 9 channels.

Am I understanding it correctly? Is it worth to keep the 3313 OR any other Denon receiver from last 8-10 years ago and use the External Inputs to use as an external amp from preouts of an amp today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kumar2018 is online now  
post #3138 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 01:23 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 83,955
Mentioned: 739 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22558 Post(s)
Liked: 12278
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumar2018 View Post
Hi everyone, and @jdsmoothie @SEL danball @PlanetAVS @Quicksilv3r

Have Denon and other brands stopped producing AVRs with discrete power amps? I have an AVR-3313ci and AVR-2312ci, and both state on Denon's website as 125w and 105w PER CHANNEL FOR ALL 7 channels of equal power through discrete amp circuits.

Is it true that these would provide the same power across all channels? Most new AVRs including the 6500 and 8500 (as I was looking into the 8500), they all mention the 240-250w at 2ch driven .. meaning power would drop and distribute and spread.

AVR-4520 seemed to have the max at 190w per channel across all 9 channels.

Am I understanding it correctly? Is it worth to keep the 3313 OR any other Denon receiver from last 8-10 years ago and use the External Inputs to use as an external amp from preouts of an amp today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Even the 3313CI (125W) and 2312CI (105W) and 4520CI (150W) power ratings are only into 2CH with power/CH dropping as more speakers are added.
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #3139 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 06:20 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Even the 3313CI (125W) and 2312CI (105W) and 4520CI (150W) power ratings are only into 2CH with power/CH dropping as more speakers are added.


Thank you jdsmoothie..How come then, the Denon site states it differently for these models?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kumar2018 is online now  
post #3140 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 06:29 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 83,955
Mentioned: 739 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22558 Post(s)
Liked: 12278
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumar2018 View Post
Thank you jdsmoothie..How come then, the Denon site states it differently for these models?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Marketing rhetoric.
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #3141 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 07:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PlanetAVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 3,201
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2038 Post(s)
Liked: 1912
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumar2018 View Post
Hi everyone, and @jdsmoothie @SEL danball @PlanetAVS @Quicksilv3r

Have Denon and other brands stopped producing AVRs with discrete power amps? I have an AVR-3313ci and AVR-2312ci, and both state on Denon's website as 125w and 105w PER CHANNEL FOR ALL 7 channels of equal power through discrete amp circuits.

Is it true that these would provide the same power across all channels? Most new AVRs including the 6500 and 8500 (as I was looking into the 8500), they all mention the 240-250w at 2ch driven .. meaning power would drop and distribute and spread.

AVR-4520 seemed to have the max at 190w per channel across all 9 channels.

Am I understanding it correctly? Is it worth to keep the 3313 OR any other Denon receiver from last 8-10 years ago and use the External Inputs to use as an external amp from preouts of an amp today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It would help if you described more detail about your needs. Use cases, # and type of speakers, room size etc, volume levels you want. And what your goals are.
PlanetAVS is offline  
post #3142 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 08:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
brazensol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 751 Post(s)
Liked: 571
All I can say is my 8500H/6200W combo has never struggled no matter how high I set the volume - including way too loud for my ears.
DesertDog and Matt2026 like this.

Denali Cinema
JVC-RS540, 124" Wide 2.40:1 DIY Screen, Denon 8500H, Denon 6200W, Panasonic UB820 UHD Player, (3) iNuke 6000DSP; (2) iNuke NX3000D; (3) HTM-12; (14) RSL C34e surrounds; (2) 18" DA RSS460HO-4 Subwoofers; (1) DA UM18-22 18" Ultimax Subwoofer; (4) DA RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofers; BOSS Platform - (12) 12" Subwoofers
brazensol is online now  
post #3143 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 29,540
Mentioned: 149 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4841 Post(s)
Liked: 5164
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumar2018 View Post
Is it true that these would provide the same power across all channels? Most new AVRs including the 6500 and 8500 (as I was looking into the 8500), they all mention the 240-250w at 2ch driven .. meaning power would drop and distribute and spread.

AVR-4520 seemed to have the max at 190w per channel across all 9 channels.
Nothing has changed since your 4520CI. They still use discrete, identical power amp circuits for all channels. You're not comparing specs apples to apples, the 4520CI definitely didn't do 190w simultaneously on all 9 channels. For example check out this bench test: https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ver-test-bench

Again, all the amp channels are identical on all the models under discussion. Each of them is individually capable of full-rated power output. The limiting factor in most cases is the shared power supply, which is the bottleneck that causes the rating to drop in "all channels driven" tests like in the link above. In real world use however that's not super relevant as you aren't pushing identical test signals to all channel simultaneously, actual program content is more variable and doesn't use all channels equally.

The AVR-X8500H is more powerful overall than your 4520CI - similar amp ratings but an even bigger power supply to handle the 13 channels. It's probably the most powerful AVR that Denon has built since some of their giant flagship models of the previous decade.
Ted99 and Matt2026 like this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
post #3144 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 12:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Nothing has changed since your 4520CI. They still use discrete, that t Denon has built since some of their giant flagship models of the previous decade.

Thank you everyone. So is it safe to say that if I were to use pre-outs from a 3313ci into external input for front L and R of the 4520ci, or another AVR with multi channel input, the AVR could drive the large towers with clean and sufficient power as posted and tested for a "2 channel driven" power wattage output at all times? I could leave the other speakers to the main system.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kumar2018 is online now  
post #3145 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 12:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
avman09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTRAK View Post
I am just curious how efficient are Denon AVR internal amplifiers? I saw that the AVR-X8500H has a A/B amplifier and has a large power transformer to handle the 13 channels of amplification but as more channels are added to the load you be very fortunate to get 70 watts max, when all channels are driven at the same time, given that all available current from the wall outlet is utilized. I have never owned a Denon receiver and this is something I am considering before I purchase this receiver. Also I couldn't find any reviews on the bench test performance for this receiver online anywhere.
There was one done by Audiovision.de on the AVC-X8500H, that claimed 140 watts in 7-channel mode (4 ohms). They did not do the all channel (13) tests that I believe no one would do anyway. I highly doubt there are movie contents that would max out even 5 channels simultaneously at any time for more than perhaps a few long seconds (I just pick a number), let alone 13 channels, so I hope that won't defer you from considering this first and only (so far) 13.1 channel AVR.
avman09 is offline  
post #3146 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 12:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
avman09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 655
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

150 watts into 8 ohms requires 4.33 amps RMS or 8.66 amps RMS for two channels. These current needs have to be fulfilled with proportionate DC outputs from the power supply.

23 watts into 8 ohms requires 1.70 amps RMS for one channel or 22.0 amps RMS for 13 channels, with a proportionate DC output from the power supply.

A much more substantial power supply is required to supply current to meet the 22.0 amp vs. 8.66 amp requirement, if the amplifier channels are to act as decent voltage sources. Getting something for nothing isn't happening here. Actually adding the speakers gets less than nothing based on the effect it has on power supply loading. Just as an example, almost three times the capacitance will be required to maintain the same ripple level from the power supply at 19.9 amps vs. 7.8 amps. Clearly a bigger power transformer is also required and the output stages will generate more heat so larger heat sinks will also be required. For many AVR’s, the DC current draw from the power supply resulting from the load from the 13 channels, is close to triggering the protection circuitry. Protection, depending on the unit, may involve turning on fans at various speeds, cutting the rail voltage, or ultimately shutting down the unit.

The above example also shows why adding channels, even channels in the ceiling that don't appear to put much stress on the amplifiers in an AVR, actually do add stress. Supplying those first few watts (actually amps as noted, watts will lead one astray) to a speaker places a significant added load on an AVR's power supply, if say four channels are added. Move to speakers with a lower sensitivity and/or a lower impedance and the demands increase again.
The calculated current in your example may scare people, when in reality, stress on the power supply is also time dependent. I would think that many 7.1 home systems based on the seemingly popular Klipsch speakers, would draw less than 1 watts average per channel, that's a lot less than our 23 watts (and much lower current accordingly) example, but the peaks within the 1 WPC average could result in power draws of 100 W or more, that's 3.535 A per channel, or more.

So it isn't a big deal in terms of average, but the peaks could be concerning. On the other hand, peaks, even in action movies don't typically last that long and not every channel will get the same magnitude of peaks at the same time. I just added 4 more channels, from 7.1 to 11.1 and my amps don't really feel much warmer.
avman09 is offline  
post #3147 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 07:22 PM
Member
 
Surge2018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: NYC
Posts: 167
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 221 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Huh?

For connecting 2 receivers together to get more than 11 channels do I need to use the pre outs at all? Or is using zone 2 out sufficient and just connect the extra height speakers to the second receiver?
For the setup he has in mind the zone 2 HDMI carries all the signals to the 2nd receiver. You won't need the preouts.
It won’t output more than 2 channels from Zone 2 or 3, unfortunately.

* 1930s cinema RCA 1443 field coil midrange horns, Supravox EXC 12” field coil upper bass, Fostex T500a super tweeter * active transmission line sub *Klipsch in wall (4x) Music: * Kondo Japan 2 channel: M77, Souga, SMC V12 w/Kondo wiring * Denon AVR X8500H * Sony 995ES 4K laser * Stewart GrayHawk RS G4 * Oppo BDP 203 UHD * PS Audio DSD DAC, P5 AC regenerator * Apple TV * Stillpoints Cloud & Aperture panels * custom diffusers/bass traps
Surge2018 is offline  
post #3148 of 4764 Old 12-08-2018, 11:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,718
Mentioned: 311 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked: 3451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
It won’t output more than 2 channels from Zone 2 or 3, unfortunately.
What is your setting in: setup>general>zon2/zon3 setup>HDMI audio ?
It should be Trough. Not PCM.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
post #3149 of 4764 Old 12-09-2018, 02:15 AM
Member
 
Surge2018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: NYC
Posts: 167
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 221 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
It won’t output more than 2 channels from Zone 2 or 3, unfortunately.
What is your setting in: setup>general>zon2/zon3 setup>HDMI audio ?
It should be Trough. Not PCM.
Yes, it’s Through. The reason why it only outputs 2 channel is because I have a projector connected to the main hdmi output. You need a TV capable of multi-channel sound in order to get multi-channel output from the Zone 2 HDMI out. Or something like the HD Fury to trick the AVR into thinking that’s the case.

* 1930s cinema RCA 1443 field coil midrange horns, Supravox EXC 12” field coil upper bass, Fostex T500a super tweeter * active transmission line sub *Klipsch in wall (4x) Music: * Kondo Japan 2 channel: M77, Souga, SMC V12 w/Kondo wiring * Denon AVR X8500H * Sony 995ES 4K laser * Stewart GrayHawk RS G4 * Oppo BDP 203 UHD * PS Audio DSD DAC, P5 AC regenerator * Apple TV * Stillpoints Cloud & Aperture panels * custom diffusers/bass traps
Surge2018 is offline  
post #3150 of 4764 Old 12-09-2018, 05:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,718
Mentioned: 311 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked: 3451
Must be a wrong setting somewhere then. This has worked since day one in 2014 when Atmos came out.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 12xJBL 12" w/6xSLAPS M12 downfiring VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off