The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 106 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3151 of 4800 Old 12-09-2018, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post
The calculated current in your example may scare people, when in reality, stress on the power supply is also time dependent. I would think that many 7.1 home systems based on the seemingly popular Klipsch speakers, would draw less than 1 watts average per channel, that's a lot less than our 23 watts (and much lower current accordingly) example, but the peaks within the 1 WPC average could result in power draws of 100 W or more, that's 3.535 A per channel, or more.

So it isn't a big deal in terms of average, but the peaks could be concerning. On the other hand, peaks, even in action movies don't typically last that long and not every channel will get the same magnitude of peaks at the same time. I just added 4 more channels, from 7.1 to 11.1 and my amps don't really feel much warmer.
That's the reason for big capacitance in the power supply--high TRANSIENT current comes from the capacitance.

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post #3152 of 4800 Old 12-09-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Yes, it’s Through. The reason why it only outputs 2 channel is because I have a projector connected to the main hdmi output. You need a TV capable of multi-channel sound in order to get multi-channel output from the Zone 2 HDMI out. Or something like the HD Fury to trick the AVR into thinking that’s the case.
This would only be true if you were trying to pass the audio to both the PJ and the Zone 2 HDMI monitor output.

As it is, the multi ch audio is being played by the main zone AVR (with only video being passed to the PJ) while also being passed to the multi ch AVR connected to the Zone 2 HDMI monitor output.

Try doing a "soft reset" of both AVRs by powering them to standby and unplugging their power cords and the HDMI cable that connects them for 10 minutes. Power on the main zone AVR, pause 5 seconds, source, pause 5 seconds, and then the Zone 2 AVR.
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post #3153 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As JDSmoothie said, there are quite a few limitations to take into account. Selecting TV out is definitely a no-no if you want to keep multi channel.

I have solved it that way:

HDMI 1 OUT goes to my JVC RS500 through a HD Fury Vertex that reports a "full Audio" capability back to the AVR, which deals with the limitation induced by connecting a PJ to the AVR. You *might* be able to send the second HDMI Out of the Vertex (it's a 2 in / 2 out) to your HDMI Headphones.

For some reason that I can't remember, I'm using the HD Fury AVR Key on the HDMI Zone 2 out to take the full audio and send it to my HDMI Sony headphones without downgrading the signal to stereo for the other HDMI Outs.

I would ask HD Fury in the Vertex thread to confirm what you need, but I can vouch for both products, I use them all the time and that definitely resolved the issue here.

Alternatively, HD Fury should release in 2019 a couple of new devices (Maestro/Diva) that will definitely handle everything and replace the Vertex/AVR Key combo.

I assume that, like my Sony, your HDMI headphones are HDMI 1.4 and not HDMI 2.0, so your should keep that into account as well because beyond the audio limitations to stereo, you will also get the video limitation to HDMI 1.4 bandwidth (10Gb/s instead of 18Gb/s) if you don't put the headphones on a separate path, with a HD Fury device to keep reporting full audio / full video to the AVR.
Unfortunately, I can't get multi-channel audio to output from HDMI Zone 2 (or Monitor outputs). I connected the Dr. HDMI 4K by HD Fury in between Monitor out 2 and the Sony projector. It works as expected. The Dr. HDMI is set for full 3D sound and 4K 60fps.

I connected the multi-channel headphone processor to Zone 2. When I turn Zone 2 on, the sound is 2 channel *and* the video resolution through Monitor 2 drops to 1080P!

Has anyone else managed to get multi-channel out of the Denon, while watching 4K content? It's infuriating that the top of the line AVR cannot do this. I'm not trying to pirate anything, I just want to watch a movie with my multi-channel headphones!

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post #3154 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Unfortunately, I can't get multi-channel audio to output from HDMI Zone 2 (or Monitor outputs). I connected the Dr. HDMI 4K by HD Fury in between Monitor out 2 and the Sony projector. It works as expected. The Dr. HDMI is set for full 3D sound and 4K 60fps.

I connected the multi-channel headphone processor to Zone 2. When I turn Zone 2 on, the sound is 2 channel *and* the video resolution through Monitor 2 drops to 1080P!

Has anyone else managed to get multi-channel out of the Denon, while watching 4K content? It's infuriating that the top of the line AVR cannot do this. I'm not trying to pirate anything, I just want to watch a movie with my multi-channel headphones!
If the goal is to watch 4K, then whatever you connect to the HDMI zon2 output need to be HDMI 2.0/HTCP2.2 complient, or it will downscale to 1080P.

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post #3155 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Unfortunately, I can't get multi-channel audio to output from HDMI Zone 2 (or Monitor outputs). I connected the Dr. HDMI 4K by HD Fury in between Monitor out 2 and the Sony projector. It works as expected. The Dr. HDMI is set for full 3D sound and 4K 60fps.

I connected the multi-channel headphone processor to Zone 2. When I turn Zone 2 on, the sound is 2 channel *and* the video resolution through Monitor 2 drops to 1080P!

Has anyone else managed to get multi-channel out of the Denon, while watching 4K content? It's infuriating that the top of the line AVR cannot do this. I'm not trying to pirate anything, I just want to watch a movie with my multi-channel headphones!
The Zone 2 HDMI monitor output is no different than most other HDMI splitters in that when passing the same source to both main and Zone 2, the HDMI audio AND video will be down mixed to the lowest common denominator of the two HDMI sinks connected to the outputs.
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post #3156 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
The Zone 2 HDMI monitor output is no different than most other HDMI splitters in that when passing the same source to both main and Zone 2, the HDMI audio AND video will be down mixed to the lowest common denominator of the two HDMI sinks connected to the outputs.
I see, thanks.
So perhaps the way to connect the headphone processor is:
Monitor Out 2 -> HD Fury -> Headphone Processor -> Projector

The only thing here is that I'm not sure any audio will come out of the Denon this way. And if you set HDMI audio output to TV from AVR, then you get 2 channel only!

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post #3157 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
If the goal is to watch 4K, then whatever you connect to the HDMI zon2 output need to be HDMI 2.0/HTCP2.2 complient, or it will downscale to 1080P.
I see. Could this also be why the audio is only 2 channel? Because the headphone processor is not HDMI 2.0/HTCP2.2?

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post #3158 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
I see. Could this also be why the audio is only 2 channel? Because the headphone processor is not HDMI 2.0/HTCP2.2?
Yes, the headphone processor has to be the culpruit here.

It works just fine with a AVR, and 4K works too.

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post #3159 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, the headphone processor heas to be the culpruit here.
Thanks! So another HD Fury between Zone 2 and the headphone processor should work to trick the Denon into thinking the Zone 2 device is compliant?

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post #3160 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Surge2018 View Post
Thanks! So another HD Fury between Zone 2 and the headphone processor should work to trick the Denon into thinking the Zone 2 device is compliant?
Accoding to manni’s post further up here, yes.
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post #3161 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Most people don't listen anywhere close to reference level though, so the point still stands that most people don't need as much power as they think they do.
Very true. Not to mention you can only listen to loud music for so long.....
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post #3162 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 04:29 PM
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Oh I see. Thank you for the information.
A minor clarification to the quoted post -- full "reference level" is actually 105dB peaks for EACH SPEAKER, not combined SPL.

Most people don't listen anywhere close to reference level though, so the point still stands that most people don't need as much power as they think they do. If you listen at -10dB then you are using 1/10th the power as you would need for full reference.
Your original explanation made more sense to me and now I'm confused.
I thought each speaker needs to be capable of producing 105db but doesn't Audyssey calibrate everything so that with all speakers combined you get 105db peaks at MLP when master volume is set to 0db? That's what I thought reference level was.

If my front 3 speakers were all hitting 105db each at the same time wouldn't SPL at MLP be at 108db+ or unsafe levels?
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post #3163 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Werner Roth View Post
Your original explanation made more sense to me and now I'm confused.
I thought each speaker needs to be capable of producing 105db but doesn't Audyssey calibrate everything so that with all speakers combined you get 105db peaks at MLP when master volume is set to 0db? That's what I thought reference level was.

If my front 3 speakers were all hitting 105db each at the same time wouldn't SPL at MLP be at 108db+ or unsafe levels?
No, Audyssey calibrates EACH speaker to play 75dB with a -30dBfs test signal, so 75 + 30 = 105dB peak output PER SPEAKER.

Audyssey does nothing with combinations of speakers, each speaker is calibrated (level/distance) and EQ'd independently.

Reference level is defined as 105dB peak output for a full scale signal for EACH channel. The LFE channel has another 10dB of headroom so it's 115dB peak.

And, yes, if you actually are able to listen at full reference level then you could theoretically hear combined SPL well above 105dB, especially when you account for LFE. I've measured 110dB+ in my room at -10 volume with crazy action effects (e.g. alien smashing stuff in Cloverfield).

But most of that is the bass.... it would be quite unusual I imagine to hear 100% peak full scale effects from ALL speakers simultaneously.

A good read: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...ference-level/

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post #3164 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 04:50 PM
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Just because the system is supposed to be able to hit 105dB peaks per speaker that does NOT mean that any soundtrack ever will come anywhere NEAR that amount. When was the last time you were at a cinema and felt the need to plug your ears because it was so flipping loud? Music tends to be compressed as hell and sit at average volumes, but movies peak here and there and they don't necessarily peak at 105db just because they CAN. IN other words, you should not expect it to hit 105dB per screen speaker just because you play at 0dB on the AVR dial. I'm usually at around -6 to -10dB for most movies and -12 to -20 for music.

On my Carver system I was measuring some of the louder music albums I play and it hit 100-105dB C-weighted on the SPL meter "fast" setting, but that was mostly bass since it averaged closer to 86-92dB on the A-weighted setting. Now that varied during some of the songs quite a bit, but songs that keep moving maybe were 80-92dB A-weighted. That's a whopping 12dB dynamic range on average during most of the song. With the Carver speakers, that's where it sounded GOOD. So that's about 13dB below the PEAK level of a movie soundtrack. The difference? A movie soundtrack might have an explosion that goes over 100dB A-weighted, but it's short duration (otherwise you'd get hearing damage in short order). Even 90dB average A-weighted listening sessions should go beyond a couple of hours or you risk hearing damage. 85dB average is safe for several hours. Again, that's A-weighted. C-weighted is "flat" but the human ear is far less sensitive to bass frequencies and they need to be much louder to do real damage. 105dB bass peaks (C-weighted) are relatively safe. The same song A-weighted was in the 80-90dB range, averaging maybe 82-84dB (you could listen to that for over 6 hours).
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post #3165 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Roth View Post
Your original explanation made more sense to me and now I'm confused.
I thought each speaker needs to be capable of producing 105db but doesn't Audyssey calibrate everything so that with all speakers combined you get 105db peaks at MLP when master volume is set to 0db? That's what I thought reference level was.

If my front 3 speakers were all hitting 105db each at the same time wouldn't SPL at MLP be at 108db+ or unsafe levels?
No, Audyssey calibrates EACH speaker to play 75dB with a -30dBfs test signal, so 75 + 30 = 105dB peak output PER SPEAKER.

Audyssey does nothing with combinations of speakers, each speaker is calibrated (level/distance) and EQ'd independently.

Reference level is defined as 105dB peak output for a full scale signal for EACH channel. The LFE channel has another 10dB of headroom so it's 115dB peak.

And, yes, if you actually are able to listen at full reference level then you could theoretically hear combined SPL well above 105dB, especially when you account for LFE. I've measured 110dB+ in my room at -10 volume with crazy action effects (e.g. alien smashing stuff in Cloverfield).

But most of that is the bass.... it would be quite unusual I imagine to hear 100% peak full scale effects from ALL speakers simultaneously.

A good read: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...ference-level/
Sorry, I usually try to see the forest instead of the trees. Audyssey is part of the overall system including the AVR and soundtrack. The system is designed to reach 105 db peaks at MLP.
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post #3166 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Werner Roth View Post
Sorry, I usually try to see the forest instead of the trees. Audyssey is part of the overall system including the AVR and soundtrack. The system is designed to reach 105 db peaks at MLP.
Each speaker/sub is independently calibrated, the level/delay settings made after the 1st mic position test tones are passed. For the bold to be true, the "system" would have to pass test tones to every speaker at once, otherwise, how would the system know which speaker levels to increase/decrease for a combined output of 105dB at the MLP?
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post #3167 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Roth View Post
Sorry, I usually try to see the forest instead of the trees. Audyssey is part of the overall system including the AVR and soundtrack. The system is designed to reach 105 db peaks at MLP.
Each speaker/sub is independently calibrated, the level/delay settings made after the 1st mic position test tones are passed. For the bold to be true, the "system" would have to pass test tones to every speaker at once, otherwise, how would the system know which speaker levels to increase/decrease for a combined output of 105dB at the MLP?
The soundtrack.
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post #3168 of 4800 Old 12-10-2018, 07:47 PM
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The soundtrack.
The soundtrack cannot account for the acoustic characteristics of your room.
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post #3169 of 4800 Old 12-11-2018, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Werner Roth View Post
The soundtrack.
The soundtrack cannot account for the acoustic characteristics of your room.
Audyssey does.
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post #3170 of 4800 Old 12-11-2018, 09:38 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
No, Audyssey calibrates EACH speaker to play 75dB with a -30dBfs test signal, so 75 + 30 = 105dB peak output PER SPEAKER.



Audyssey does nothing with combinations of speakers, each speaker is calibrated (level/distance) and EQ'd independently.



Reference level is defined as 105dB peak output for a full scale signal for EACH channel. The LFE channel has another 10dB of headroom so it's 115dB peak.



And, yes, if you actually are able to listen at full reference level then you could theoretically hear combined SPL well above 105dB, especially when you account for LFE. I've measured 110dB+ in my room at -10 volume with crazy action effects (e.g. alien smashing stuff in Cloverfield).



But most of that is the bass.... it would be quite unusual I imagine to hear 100% peak full scale effects from ALL speakers simultaneously.



A good read: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...ference-level/


Agreed on the reference level info Nyal published.
Interesting thing is Dolby Atmos commercial cinema guide does not necessarily state speaker spl for reference (like a near field measure), rather in the 2/3 back row RLP spot the spl, as real world user experiences, makes sense.
It’s the designer job to achieve that.
I’m looking for the equivalent home theater published spec from Dolby.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ifications.pdf
“2.2 SoundPressureLevel:105dB
Each screen loudspeaker system and associated amplifiers must have a maximum output capability of 105 dB continuous sound pressure level (SPL) at the reference listening position (RLP), a point two-thirds of the distance to the rear wall of the auditorium in the middle of the seating area. Loudspeaker capability must be determined as described in Section 6. If the system specifications are not known or not provided by the manufacturer, use the following guidelines for SPL at the RLP to assess each component:
• Two-way/biamplifier: 105 dB for the low-frequency section, 101 dB for the middle-frequency and high-frequency sections
• Three-way/triamplifier: 105 dB, 101 dB, 98 dB for the low-frequency, middle-frequency, and high-frequency sec- tions, respectively
• Four-way/quad amplifier: 105 dB, 101 dB, 98 dB, 92 dB for the low-frequency, middle-frequency, high-frequency, and ultra high-frequency sections, respectively
When determining the SPL capability of a screen loudspeaker system or the low-frequency component, use half-space sensi- tivity if the loudspeaker is mounted in a baffle wall. We recommend an amplifier with 3 dB of headroom (that is, twice the required continuous power) to drive each element.”



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post #3171 of 4800 Old 12-11-2018, 10:03 AM
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The question was raised, does the 8500 really have enough power to play at reference level with 13 speakers? Yes it does, because all 13 speakers will never be asked to produce 105db at MLP at the same time.

Sure, Dolby theater specs says each speaker system must be capable of reaching 105db at the reference listening position (in case it is called to do so on its own, but this never actually happens). Dolby does not say that all speakers in the theatre must or will hit those levels at the same time.

From Audyssey labs, Google it:
"Movies are mixed in rooms calibrated for film reference. To achieve the same reference level in a home theater system each speaker level must be adjusted so that –30 dBFS band-limited (500 Hz – 2000 Hz) pink noise produces 75 dB sound pressure level at the listening position. A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it."
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post #3172 of 4800 Old 12-11-2018, 10:54 AM
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Atmos only specifies SCREEN speakers to be able to play 105dB PEAK. Surrounds are only required to 99dB peak each (or 105dB for an array). That is for the RLP in a theater. It's considerably easier to hit those numbers at home, especially with something like Klipsch horn-loaded speakers (walk in the park for the 8500). 99dB at 1 meter would require only 8 watts for an average speaker and about 2 watts for a Klipsch horn. It would not be an issue to play at maximum peak levels. I don't know why people keep acting like it would. I regularly measure 105-110dB peaks in bass and 92-94dB for the main speakers (playing MUSIC, let alone movies) and I'm not running out of power and I'm not using Klipsch speakers (PSB are 90-93dB rated on average depending on the speaker size). I don't know why people are worried about it either. Most people won't play that loud for various reasons (crap speakers sound bad at those levels for one thing and many people have neighbor issues or don't want to go deaf, etc.). Large planar speakers like my Carver Amazings do not generally have that issue. You can keep cranking the volume and it doesn't get harsher, just louder. I used to take SPL readings all the time just to make SURE I wasn't at overly harmful levels because it's easy to crank it too high when it sounds SO sweet!

Then there's the Disney/Marvel movies from the past few years. They are definitely NOT at "reference" levels (the sad thing being Disney bought Skywalker Sound) and I have no idea why they keep putting out discs with lower levels (and it's not just average lower in many cases, but squashed dynamics and/or frequency ranges. Some just sound a bit weird. Compare that to something like Tron Legacy from a few years before that which sounds AWESOME.

Most people play headphones too loud due to environmental noise and don't even realize they're destroying their hearing. I remember getting a hearing test and to be fitted for musician ear plugs and sitting in the final waiting room for the results when I overhead a doctor talking to some teenager in the room next to me informing him that he had like 60% hearing loss and it was apparently due to cranking a Sony Walkman (or the like) all the time with headphones outdoors. The poor kid had no idea he was killing his hearing. This is where noise reducing headphones are nice, but the danger is still there as it's not simple to measure the levels of headphones while you're listening wherever (unlike room measurements with a SPL meter at home).
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Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #3173 of 4800 Old 12-11-2018, 11:27 AM
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^^^ exactly what magnumx said!


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post #3174 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 07:45 AM
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So In the other amps that do 11 speakers I have read you have to turn off the back speakers when Using front wide as it always defaults to the back speakers
Now with the avr8500 it will play everything ok when in a 9.2.4 set up ?
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post #3175 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 09:09 AM
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So In the other amps that do 11 speakers I have read you have to turn off the back speakers when Using front wide as it always defaults to the back speakers
Now with the avr8500 it will play everything ok when in a 9.2.4 set up ?
When there are only 11 amps on board, it makes sense that the most you can do is a 5+FW.2.4 setup for a total of 11 speakers.

As a 13 amp AVR, yes, the X8500H can do a 9.2.4 setup noting that DTS:X/Neural:X is currently limited to a maximum 11 speakers so will only do 5+FW.2.4 if you want FW and 4 height speakers.
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post #3176 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 09:15 AM
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Thanks
Time to get the upgrade to 13 channels
Will PM you soon for an order
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post #3177 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 09:54 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

It’s time, yes it’s time ..

It’s been nearly 1 year since we knew the 8500H was coming, after a long flagship “wish list” thread.

Therefore, knowing the 8500HA will include HDMI 2.1, what else is desired and doable? Like Summer-2019 timing.

List them out, I’ll re-cap into this post.

Ongoing requested update's for the mid-2019 summer 8500HA [ as of 12-14-2018]

Video related
  • HDMI 2.1
  • Anamorphic scaling ability for 4k 4:4:4 60 hz sources; expectation is new board for HDMI 2.1 can also cover this from hardware side.
  • HDR10+ Compatibility

Audio related
  • Ability to store different speaker profiles in the AVR itself instead of a USB stick, some RAM on board.
  • Ability to store different Audyssey calibrations from the app to the AVR for quicker/easier loading, some RAM on board.
  • Ability to have a true 9.2.6 Atmos configuration by adding necessary DSP's/DAC's, yeah a board revision req'd. Still keep 13 amps, this only activates if the user uses a outboard amp for whatever 2 channels they choose, enable pre-outs.

    __This means flexibility of 7 traditional channels plus Front wides plus FH+TM+RH or TF+TM+TR configuration.
  • 13ch support for DTS:X / Neural:X
  • Real time channel level playback .... yea, like the Trinnov shows for Stuart .
    The data signals are there, Denon just needs to pipe those out, perhaps into the web interface??

Other

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post #3178 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 10:42 AM
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It’s time, yes it’s time ..
It’s been nearly 1 year since we knew the 8500H was coming, after a long flagship “wish list” thread.

Therefore, knowing the 8500HA will include HDMI 2.1, what else is desired and doable? Like Summer-2019 timing.
List them out, I’ll re-cap into this post.


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I think that in summer 2019 we’ll be happy if we get HDMI 2.1. I highly doubt that a new model will arrive that early. I would expect a new model in 2020, maybe.

What I want isn’t really hardware. I’d be happy if DTS:X and Neural:X were able to support 13 channels in 9.1.4, and if HDR10+ was supported (not because I need it, just for resale value).

I think that with these few software improvements, I could keep the X8500H until there is a good reason to upgrade, and I don’t really see it given that I have little use for 9.1.6 in my current room.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
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post #3179 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 11:48 AM
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Do we know when the 2.1 hdmi upgrade is going to be done ?
I have been looking at the RMC 1 however think the avr 8500 is best for me
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post #3180 of 4800 Old 12-13-2018, 12:07 PM
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Do we know when the 2.1 hdmi upgrade is going to be done ?
I have been looking at the RMC 1 however think the avr 8500 is best for me
Best guess is "maybe" summer 2019 the upgrade will be available.
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