The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 133 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3961 of 4446 Old 04-17-2019, 07:30 PM
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Did anyone just see an FW update?
"improve performance" - very enlightening
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post #3962 of 4446 Old 04-17-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin. W View Post
I'm just not sure why you care, or why myself or anyone would have to explain.

This is a thread where users try to help each other. You mentioned that you're bi-amping (passively), and yet you also say that you're not trying to add more power to your setup. I'm genuinely curious, what is it that you're trying to do?
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post #3963 of 4446 Old 04-17-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Did anyone just see an FW update?
"improve performance" - very enlightening
If that meant speed up the GUI menus to something resembling the 21st Century instead of a cable box from twenty years ago, I'd be happy with glee.
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post #3964 of 4446 Old 04-17-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Did anyone just see an FW update?
"improve performance" - very enlightening

I did, now at versions;
7300-0114-1131-5005
3.90.50.54


Wish they would supply release notes with these firmware updates besides "ya we did something"
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post #3965 of 4446 Old 04-17-2019, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This is a thread where users try to help each other. You mentioned that you're bi-amping (passively), and yet you also say that you're not trying to add more power to your setup. I'm genuinely curious, what is it that you're trying to do?
I should think it would be obvious that he believes there might be something to passive bi-amping with the same AVR and no matter if you and I disagree with that notion and whether we are right is beside the point. He wants to try it out so let him have at it. Now as it is, I just happen to disagree that there's "no point" to it.

Clearly, passive bi-amping can have some benefits if you use a different amp (i.e. split power). My Carver AL-IIIs had an issue back in the 1990s whereby the ribbons would "snap" (rather nasty too) in this one little segment of a Japanese anime song (Heroic Legend of Arslan Vol. 3/4 track #3 entitled "深慮遠謀" (which I believe translates to "Deep Thought") just past one minute into the song). If I switched amp channels or cables, it didn't matter and yet sending the SAME channel to the left speaker would NOT do it at all. I called Carver. They sent someone out to look into this. You could actually see ribbon damage (tiny little crinkles) when you took the ribbon out. They replaced the ribbon. Still did it. They replaced the crosssover. Still did it. They replaced the woofer. Still did it. The tech guy was absolutely puzzled. We tried playing it with bi-amping using both stereo channels on one speaker. The problem disappeared like magic. They gave me a free spare ribbon and I bought a second amp and never had the problem again. I eventually bought an active crossover as well (I figured I might as well since I'm already bi-amping).

Now technically, I tried using the SAME amp to power both ribbon and woofer separately and whatever weird interaction that was going on via the crossover did not go on using both channels. Now a stereo power amp doesn't share the same power supply quite the same way these newer AVRs do (i.e. you can't get more than the rated power for one channel without bridging), but then really, you can't do that on an AVR either. True, they're sharing a common power supply, BUT there's a maximum limit to how much power you can get out of one channel no matter what and that limit on the 8500 is 150 Watts into 8 Ohms officially, at least. So what happens if you bi-amp in STEREO mode? Well, believe it or not you probably now have 150 Watts x 4 channels (It's a 13-channel amplifier so it isn't going to bring down the maximum output for just 4-channels, as far as I can tell. Yes, running all 13 you're not going to get 150W out of each at the same time. But 4? I'd say probably darn close.

So, unless I've made a miscalculation, by "bi-amping" with the 8500, he can get more power to ONE speaker than the AVR would allow him to have with just a single amp and that's because of the maximum single channel limit of 150W RMS. In other words, you could theoretically get something closer to 300W per speaker maximum using bi-amping in stereo mode. Thus, that mode would have probably 'fixed' my problem above in passive bi-amping even though I'm using a common power supply because it's still getting more maximum power because until it starts hitting the overall power supply limit, you're going to get more power from 2-channels than just one due to the 150W limit of the device. The power supply appears to be rated for 900W total (including video, etc.) I'm betting it could still easily do 300Wx4 <> 150Wx2.

Maybe I've overlooked something and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it sure seems like there COULD be a purpose to bi-amping on a single AVR like the 8500. Would you get that power increase with all channels driven? No. But you'd be no worse off than if you were just using 2-channels. But in stereo mode....up to 3dB more output maximum (probably not needed if you're bi-amping for tweeters, but depending on the speaker design...). Now my Carvers are different from most box speakers. They are two-way speakers and the ribbons use just as much power as the 10" woofers because they're hard to drive and play 150Hz-20kHz on a stock unit (my active version is 250Hz-20kHz to get rid of a notch frequency). So more power could come in handy. Seeing as I'm hitting the limits at 170W into 4 for the ribbons + 350W into 4 for the woofers (the ribbon amp is going into protection on some music cranked), I went ahead and ordered another 350W amp for the ribbons instead, which should give me just over 3dB more headroom on the ribbons and match the woofers so the 8500 simply would cut it (they're rated 190 into 6 and only give a dynamic power into 4 of 280W).

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post #3966 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 02:27 AM
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I run mine bi-amped at present.

You could have a point. Each channel sends the whole frequency spectrum to the speaker, But logically? there is "150w" going into Mid HF part of the crossover and the additional "150w" into the Bass section.
So each power amp in only dealing with each half of the crossover.
If single the "150W" has the whole crossover to deal with which could introduce power losses/dynamics?

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post #3967 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin. W View Post
I'm just not sure why you care, or why myself or anyone would have to explain.

This is a thread where users try to help each other. You mentioned that you're bi-amping (passively), and yet you also say that you're not trying to add more power to your setup. I'm genuinely curious, what is it that you're trying to do?
Maybe you should go back and read your original response to my original question. I was not asking for an opinion on biamping or adding more power, was only asking for help on and issue I had with my centre channel biamp setup and the X8500H. That i figured out in the end myself. And lets be honest, your mind is made up on the merits of Biamping, so your curiosity comes across more as looking for a debate than anything.

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post #3968 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
I run mine bi-amped at present.

You could have a point. Each channel sends the whole frequency spectrum to the speaker, But logically? there is "150w" going into Mid HF part of the crossover and the additional "150w" into the Bass section.
So each power amp in only dealing with each half of the crossover.
If single the "150W" has the whole crossover to deal with which could introduce power losses/dynamics?
Well something was causing the ribbon damage in that song and it went away even with passive bi-amping so it did matter in that one example even if it was a bit extreme and certainlyyou ca use two amps with separate power supplies to increase effective power and that only goes up further with an active crossover.

Now bi-wiring seems pretty pointless to me (although even there technically you're lowering the effective wire gauge so it's not literally pointless if you've got a long cable run and can fit a lower gauge wire, just effectively pointless most of the time.).

I just hate talk of absolutes when electrically there are at least subtle differences. Whether they make any effective (let alone audible) difference in a given setup is another matter.

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post #3969 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
I run mine bi-amped at present.

You could have a point. Each channel sends the whole frequency spectrum to the speaker, But logically? there is "150w" going into Mid HF part of the crossover and the additional "150w" into the Bass section.
So each power amp in only dealing with each half of the crossover.
If single the "150W" has the whole crossover to deal with which could introduce power losses/dynamics?
Important to note that the 150W rating is into only 2CH. As more speaker connections are added (including the bi-amp connection) the power to each speaker pair drops to likely <100W with a full speaker configuration … still more than enough power for most efficient speakers.
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post #3970 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Important to note that the 150W rating is into only 2CH. As more speaker connections are added (including the bi-amp connection) the power to each speaker pair drops to likely <100W with a full speaker configuration … still more than enough power for most efficient speakers.
It is also important to note that the rated impedence of the speaker is given with the terminals bridged. When un-bridged there is no way of knowing what the impedence is of each "half" of the speaker without measuring it. The basic assumption would be that each half would be double the rated impedence but I doubt it is that simple.

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post #3971 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 10:26 AM
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I did, now at versions;
7300-0114-1131-5005
3.90.50.54


Wish they would supply release notes with these firmware updates besides "ya we did something"


Yes, like “enabled full 9.2.6 processing, requires outboard amp for 2 channels” ... or something similar


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post #3972 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 11:44 AM
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I was thinking DTS:X Pro support added would be nice to see.
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post #3973 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iNT0XiC8D View Post
I did, now at versions;
7300-0114-1131-5005
3.90.50.54


Wish they would supply release notes with these firmware updates besides "ya we did something"
If you or anyone installs this update, please can you let us know if the ability to upmix DTS track with DSU and Dolby tracks with Neural:X remains?

Thank you
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post #3974 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 06:54 PM
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If you or anyone installs this update, please can you let us know if the ability to upmix DTS track with DSU and Dolby tracks with Neural:X remains?

Thank you

Tested and confirmed: Cross-upmixing is still allowed.
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post #3975 of 4446 Old 04-18-2019, 06:55 PM
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If you or anyone installs this update, please can you let us know if the ability to upmix DTS track with DSU and Dolby tracks with Neural:X remains?

Thank you
Neural:X on Dolby Digital and DSU on DTS still work.
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post #3976 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 12:55 AM
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Tested and confirmed: Cross-upmixing is still allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbyakko View Post
Neural:X on Dolby Digital and DSU on DTS still work.
Thank you

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post #3977 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 06:58 AM
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Just did the update with no fuss or dramas..
But I'm trying to figure out what it does though..
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post #3978 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 10:55 AM
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Just did the update with no fuss or dramas..

But I'm trying to figure out what it does though..


Ditto ... all of 12 minutes... did it fix my custom amp assignment bug I reported a few posts earlier?


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post #3979 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Just did the update with no fuss or dramas..
But I'm trying to figure out what it does though..
Most firmware updates don't do much, just fixing stability or glitches that you probably never knew existed. People get spoiled by the IMAX stuff thinking each update is going to actually add a feature or change something visible.

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Ditto ... all of 12 minutes... did it fix my custom amp assignment bug I reported a few posts earlier?
What bug? If you're talking about the fact that you can't assign Height 4 outputs in "Custom" mode, that is not a bug. That is by design.

"I wish it worked differently for my own convenience" is not a bug
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post #3980 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 02:02 PM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post



What bug? If you're talking about the fact that you can't assign Height 4 outputs in "Custom" mode, that is not a bug. That is by design.



"I wish it worked differently for my own convenience" is not a bug

Eitan - The design assumption is “wrong”, it’s not for my own convince sake, more like .... well the right and common sense thing to do.
It’s to harmonize with having the wiring connected for 4 pairs of speakers and being able to go between 3 Atmos modes without physically moving wires,
FH+TM+RH
FW+FH+RH
and
FW+FH+TM
Heck, Denon even labels height 4 as Front wides on the pre-outs, but not the physical amps, why is that?
Plus - they follow height 4 as front wides for the first 2 Atmos methods I show above.
So they can internally map and read it as wired!!!



Yea, it’s really silly to expect a customer to move wires when the AVR should be able to do it via internal mapping ... agree?


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post #3981 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not a bug. A bug is when something is supposed to work a certain way, but doesn't. It's an intentional (and logical) design decision. I feel like we already went through this?

The reason you want it -- using all 15 outputs and then switching between 9.1.4 and 7.1.6 layouts -- is NOT a standard use case such that it's a "bug" that it's not catered to.

The "Custom" amp assign, by definition, means "I don't want to use one of the prebuilt templates, I want to make my own template." Therefore all the standard labels and conventions associated with those outputs are moot.

There are only 13 internal amps. Therefore you only need 13 speaker outputs to create your custom map.

The 14th/15th speaker outputs are thus useless for the typical application of "Custom" assign mode. It would be MORE confusing for most end users if you involved the 14th/15th speaker posts because that would imply there are 15 amps to custom map to the 15 speaker terminals. If there are only 13 amps, why do you need more than 13 outputs?

Step outside of your own personal use case and think about it from the design perspective -- the way it's done currently is more "common sense" than what you are hoping for. 13 amps, 13 outputs, simple. And, yes, this is strictly about your convenience for your out-of-the-box use case (and clearly not a "bug").

Quote:
Heck, Denon even labels height 4 as Front wides on the pre-outs, but not the physical amps, why is that?
Those are fixed values based on the label -- remember "Amp Assign" only assigns the INTERNAL amps. For example if you changed the "FRONT" assignment to "SURROUND" then it would still say "FRONT" in the pre-out column because you are only mapping the speaker terminals, not the pre-out. The pre-outs are fixed in their signal output based on the speaker layout settings you define.

Your way out of this problem is to use an external amp for the Front Wide speakers. Then you can keep your 3 pairs of heights hooked up to Height 1/2/3, and the FW is not impacted since it's fed by the (fixed signal) pre-out.
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post #3982 of 4446 Old 04-19-2019, 05:30 PM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Eitan ...
Via 13.1 amp assign mode, FH+TM+RH
Physically connected as assigned



Now, 13.1 amp assign mode for FW+FH+RH, Physically connected as assigned


So 4 pairs of wires are connected as shown above.. one would therefore assume using 13.1 amp Assign mode for FW+FH+TM, one would think they use the already established locations in the other 2 configurations..
So far so good... seems ok


But wait, TM is moved here to where RH was ... why??
It should be kept at height #3 location , right?


Well ok, I then tried custom amp assign, thinking I could flexible assign any of the four last physical layout locations to the 3 amps ....
Custom amp assign.... looks exactly same on this screen as 13.1 amp assign


Yet here height #4 is grayed out, can’t access it, and they want me to use height #3


What am I missing here?
You really think I’m ..... off base ?
If so, then we can only agree we disagree ...


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post #3983 of 4446 Old 04-20-2019, 11:42 AM
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I did a replay of GOT Season 8 opener on HBOGo last night in my 12'/14' HT with 5 Subs and 5.1.4 + wides in DD and Neural X upmixer. Gotta tell you, when the Dragon flew overhead, the whole room shook and I could "feel" the wind in my hair. Never felt such an impact with an upmixer, before.
That right there is what it is all about, play something that moves you, literally
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post #3984 of 4446 Old 04-20-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
But wait, TM is moved here to where RH was ... why??
It should be kept at height #3 location , right?



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Per your logic, yes. But per the AVR setup, you have only 2 sets of height speakers and the 2nd set is always connected to Height 2.
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post #3985 of 4446 Old 04-20-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Yet here height #4 is grayed out, can’t access it, and they want me to use height #3


What am I missing here?
You really think I’m ..... off base ?
If so, then we can only agree we disagree ...


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I spent at least an hour and a half trying to re-calibrate my setup only to discover that the previous interface had totally changed and it took a lot of fiddling around to finally get the Middle Height speaker, between the front and the back heights, to finally show up. Previously, it was simple, but now it is convoluted and not all that easy to figure it out. Would suggest that you go through the entire process of Set Up because that is the only way to get 3 pairs of heights for Dolby Atmos. For anyone thinking that it is easy and straight forward, well they are in for a shock.
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post #3986 of 4446 Old 04-21-2019, 01:11 AM
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I'm curious, how many here use solely the 8500 to drive all speakers and what MV do you usually listen at?

I am downsizing my 'theatre' a bit and having recently sold my NAD M27 that was powering the base layer I find the Denon is good to around -8 before it starts sounding a bit strained. With the M27 I could obviously play all the way down to 0 with no problems.

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post #3987 of 4446 Old 04-21-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post
I'm curious, how many here use solely the 8500 to drive all speakers and what MV do you usually listen at?

I am downsizing my 'theatre' a bit and having recently sold my NAD M27 that was powering the base layer I find the Denon is good to around -8 before it starts sounding a bit strained. With the M27 I could obviously play all the way down to 0 with no problems.
That is strange, the Denon should be able to output at least 100W into 4 ohms, 7 channels driven without getting strained. S&V's bench tests typically measured 7 channel driven into 8 ohms, occasionally 4 ohms as well, at 0.1 and 1 % THD. Audiovision.de claimed 140 W or the AVC-X8500H but that's likely for 1% THD.
http://audiovision.de/denon-avc-8500h-test/

The M27 is rated 180 WX7 into 4 ohms. Between volume 0 and -8, that's about 6.3 times the power output. Even if you compare NAD's IHF dynamic power output (based on 20 ms burst) to Denon's "continuous" output, there is no way the NAD can do 6.3 times better, not even in 2 channel driven scenarios let alone 7 channels.

If the X8500H can do as well as the 4308CI (not even a flagship) from 10 years ago, you should be fine. I had that thing powering 7 channels for a while, before adding external amps. It did well on its own, adding the amps did make any difference but felt good.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...r-measurements
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post #3988 of 4446 Old 04-22-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
What am I missing here?
You really think I’m ..... off base ?
If so, then we can only agree we disagree ...
What you're missing is the distinction between "I wished it worked this way" vs. an actual bug. What you are doing, trying to switch between three different speaker layouts, is NOT part of SOP for this unit. The expectation is that you will have one speaker layout, configure and calibrate, and then off you go. The fact that people are trying to leverage the app or USB saves to switch between different context-specific layouts doesn't mean it's a "bug" that D+M doesn't do it in a way that's logical for you.

For example, as JD noted above when you switch from a 6 height layout to a 4 height layout, the AVR doesn't "know" that you are doing this weird stuff, it's perfectly logical for it to assume that the two height pairs are connected to Height1 and Height2.

You can mitigate the FH+RH vs. FH+TM+RH issue by using the "Custom" mode, but as we all know that doesn't solve the FW issue on Height4. So again, I think the solution for you is to use a 2ch amp on the FW speakers so they are removed from the internal amp assign calculus.

Or, even better, if you already have external amps for Front L/R (which I assume since you have them set to "None" in the custom amp assign) you should use those amps for Front Wide. Set the "Front" assignment to "Front Wide" and then Height 1/2/3 is dedicated to the three pairs of overheads, and you should be good to go.
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post #3989 of 4446 Old 04-22-2019, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post
I'm curious, how many here use solely the 8500 to drive all speakers and what MV do you usually listen at?

I am downsizing my 'theatre' a bit and having recently sold my NAD M27 that was powering the base layer I find the Denon is good to around -8 before it starts sounding a bit strained. With the M27 I could obviously play all the way down to 0 with no problems.
I use all 13 internal amps in my setup. I have 9.1.4 setup with 9 Triad speakers at ear level (7 of the 9 are LCR models with 4ohm impedance, and the back surrounds are 2-way models with 8ohm impedance) and then some non-matching 8ohm speakers for the 4 overheads. I have a smallish room though (~2,000 cubic ft) and I never listen at full reference level, but I can get up to the -5 to -8 range without it sounding strained. I have yet to push it to the point where I feel like it's running out of steam.

That said there are a BUNCH of variables at play here -- specifics about speaker impedance, speaker sensitivity, listening distance, room size / room acoustics, etc. Other than the LCR speakers (which are about 12ft away) all my other speakers are within 6-8 feet of the listening position, so I can't imagine they require much power (especially since the surrounds / overheads don't get that much content vs. the LCR).

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post #3990 of 4446 Old 04-23-2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post
I spent at least an hour and a half trying to re-calibrate my setup only to discover that the previous interface had totally changed and it took a lot of fiddling around to finally get the Middle Height speaker, between the front and the back heights, to finally show up. Previously, it was simple, but now it is convoluted and not all that easy to figure it out. Would suggest that you go through the entire process of Set Up because that is the only way to get 3 pairs of heights for Dolby Atmos. For anyone thinking that it is easy and straight forward, well they are in for a shock.
Now I am confused. how do you get into that bottom menu? and it is possible to assign front R&L to just Pre-out (so I can use my external power amp setup) and release two internal amps if I go for more ceiling? speakers

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