The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 137 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4081 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
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Originally Posted by morgiastic View Post
Is there any simple way to just play the 5.1 discreet channels in 5.1 DTS and DD content, and maintain Audyssey room correction, without having to turn off the centre-rears and height speakers in the Speakers section of the menu. In my old 3808 there was a setting in the Audio menu to turn off the centre-rears, but I haven't been able to find anything similar in the X8500H menus. This is primarily an issue for music for me and doesn't seem to effect PCM or DSD which only play the discreet channels when using the Auto Sound Mode. Unfortunately, there have been a few multi-channel Blu-rays released recently that only have DTS-HD or TrueHD soundtracks.
This seems like the kind of thing that should be straightforward to accomplish, so I'm assuming I'm missing something fairly obvious.
Push one of the colored "Sound Mode" buttons on the remote, whichever is appropriate for what you're listening to. A menu will come up which should have an option to choose just "Dolby Digital" or just "DTS" without an upmixer. This only works while content is playing.
I think those modes typically still use the rear channels as I had that issue playing DTS 5.1 music CDs. The "pure" modes won't use the rears, but they also don't use Audyssey.

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post #4082 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 09:00 AM
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I know its a little late to the party but AudioHolics has published their X8500 review:

Headline - "Denon’s AVR-X8500H is the most technologically advanced receiver the venerable company has ever built and it's arguably the most advanced AVR available today...it's a beast of a receiver and puts the world on notice."

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...eceiver-review
I'm still waiting for an English language website that reports on the real life power measurements of this amp..
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post #4083 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 09:44 AM
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I'm still waiting for an English language website that reports on the real life power measurements of this amp..
I'm actually surprised that AudioHolics didn't include this in their review as it's usually one of their strong suites and part of their moniker (“Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment") especially after they gave it "AVR award of the year" back in December 2018 and said a review was pending 5 months ago.

https://www.audioholics.com/product-...roduct-of-year

Include the fact that Denon decided to go with a an E-I core instead of a toroidal transformer and putting the video of the Marantz SR8012 power test in the X8500 review and stating "The Denon will perform even better with its larger power supply" seemed a little bit of a cheat and not on par with their usually high testing standards - otherwise it's a very solid review of a great AVR.

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post #4084 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 11:01 AM
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I think only Gene does bench tests there. That review was by someone else.

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post #4085 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 12:28 PM
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I think those modes typically still use the rear channels as I had that issue playing DTS 5.1 music CDs. The "pure" modes won't use the rears, but they also don't use Audyssey.
Thank you both for your replies. I had tried those Sound Mode buttons before posting, partly because I thought I had seen the option to do that there before, but no luck. But, as I read your posts I was sitting in front of the TV with a news channel broadcasting plain old AC3 and grabbed the AVR remote and pressed the Music button, and damned if both Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital + Dolby Surround weren't options. So, I put the particular disk I'd had the problem with, The Beatles Blu-Ray, into the CHX UHD. With the DTS-HD soundtrack the default DTS-HD MSTR option played to all available speakers and was the only DTS option. The Dolby-True HD soundtrack, however, had a Dolby-True HD Sound Mode, which played just the discreet channels, as well as the default Dolby Atmos/Surround mode.
So, that solves my problem, just use the Dolby soundtrack, but is kind of annoying for the aforementioned DTS-CDs, and the like. Also, just a little weird, seems like a strange oversight.
Again, thank you both,
Morgan.
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post #4086 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm actually surprised that AudioHolics didn't include this in their review as it's usually one of their strong suites and part of their moniker (“Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment") especially after they gave it "AVR award of the year" back in December 2018 and said a review was pending 5 months ago.
Seriously WTF is going on with multiple sites refusing to do their typical bench tests on this model? First Sound & Vision published their review without bench tests, and now Audioholics which typically does a very comprehensive suite of tests doesn't either?

At least we have the Marantz SR8012 bench tests to reference, the X8500H should be similar but slightly better overall: https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...12-bench-tests

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post #4087 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I think only Gene does bench tests there. That review was by someone else.
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Seriously WTF is going on with multiple sites refusing to do their typical bench tests on this model? First Sound & Vision published their review without bench tests, and now Audioholics which typically does a very comprehensive suite of tests doesn't either?
Yea I saw that with Sound & Vision too! Usually when someone else writes the Audioholic review (product description and functionality) that unit or one similar is shipped to Gene for benchtesting - with the Monolith amp being one example:

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifie...ifier-review/3

I'm sure a beast like this takes more time and energy to test but Audioholics had 5 months from Dec to May and even delayed publication for Denon's input:

"Peng is a professional engineer. His technical questions gave me the opportunity to go back to Denon. I felt that the answers to Peng's questions were so important that we delayed publication of the review and integrated Denon's answers..."

Batpig - Great thread by the way!

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post #4088 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalGuy-99 View Post
I know its a little late to the party but AudioHolics has published their X8500 review:

Headline - "Denon’s AVR-X8500H is the most technologically advanced receiver the venerable company has ever built and it's arguably the most advanced AVR available today...it's a beast of a receiver and puts the world on notice."

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...eceiver-review
I'm a big fan of Audioholics, especially Gene, but I take their Denon reviews with a grain of salt. This reviewer comes across as a giddy Star Wars-like fanboy, and Gene had a Demon receiver for years many years ago and is very partial to them.

That's not to say this isn't a very fine piece of equipment. I'm sure it is. I wish they'd make a preamp from it without all the unnecessary video stuff. Players and displays handle that stuff now much better.

But this Theo guy seems a little creepy when it comes to his Denon toy.

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post #4089 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 06:28 PM
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Thank you both for your replies. I had tried those Sound Mode buttons before posting, partly because I thought I had seen the option to do that there before, but no luck. But, as I read your posts I was sitting in front of the TV with a news channel broadcasting plain old AC3 and grabbed the AVR remote and pressed the Music button, and damned if both Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital + Dolby Surround weren't options. So, I put the particular disk I'd had the problem with, The Beatles Blu-Ray, into the CHX UHD. With the DTS-HD soundtrack the default DTS-HD MSTR option played to all available speakers and was the only DTS option. The Dolby-True HD soundtrack, however, had a Dolby-True HD Sound Mode, which played just the discreet channels, as well as the default Dolby Atmos/Surround mode.
So, that solves my problem, just use the Dolby soundtrack, but is kind of annoying for the aforementioned DTS-CDs, and the like. Also, just a little weird, seems like a strange oversight.
Again, thank you both,
Morgan.
Turns out at least one of my Blu-Rays, John Lennon's Imagine, only has a DTS soundtrack for 5.1. Also, put in a DVD with a DTS soundtrack, the default Sound Mode there was DTS + Neural X, but DTS Surround was also an option. They sounded different, but both used all available channels. (I'm still working on my Height set-up, I have speakers in for Front Height, but I'm not happy with them and have some others coming I'll be trying out soon.) So far, the least onerous work around for DTS soundtracks for me is to switch the player to LPCM output.
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post #4090 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 06:46 PM
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Turns out at least one of my Blu-Rays, John Lennon's Imagine, only has a DTS soundtrack for 5.1. Also, put in a DVD with a DTS soundtrack, the default Sound Mode there was DTS + Neural X, but DTS Surround was also an option. They sounded different, but both used all available channels. (I'm still working on my Height set-up, I have speakers in for Front Height, but I'm not happy with them and have some others coming I'll be trying out soon.) So far, the least onerous work around for DTS soundtracks for me is to switch the player to LPCM output.
Morgan
How far back are your rear speakers? I think they only sound 'weird' here with some 5.1 soundtracks using them (like Alan Parsons' ON AIR album) because some 'straight lines' get turned into curves if you have your rear speakers back far enough (e.g. When in track 11 "Blue Blue Sky" the guy walks across the room behind you, he walks in a straight line, but with rear speakers back far enough it sounds more like a horseshoe "U" behind you than a line. But if you have your rear speakers fairly close behind you, it's not that different sounding. Most layouts show rears just behind the couch with the sides directly to the sides of the couch. In my room, I have sides just behind my front row (the matrixed front wides, actually pull the "image" of the sides forward to "sound" like they're directly off to the sides or just behind me) then there's ANOTHER set of side surrounds (matrixed with side + rear) behind that set (between second and third row) with the rear speakers in the back of the room (some 11 feet behind the first set of side surrounds and like 13 feet behind the MLP). So suffice to say that the guy takes a little bit of a detour (a bit less so now with the matrixed side #2 speakers as that pulls it back inward from the MLP vantage point a few more feet and softens the "U" angle to be a much less 'steep' path backwards to the point where it no longer sounds 'totally weird', just a 'little' weird that the guy is walking in a semi-circle now instead of a straight line. With most music, it doesn't hurt it at all as you have no obvious 'line' reference points and with the rear speakers closer, I'd think it'd matter even less.

If I sit off-center (to a seat on the left of center) and use "pure" mode with one of those Dolby demos, the Dolby semi-circle "tones" (and the wave splash rear and side tones) start in weird places. If I don't use "pure" (use as normal), the tones are exactly where they're supposed to be (i.e. it STEERS them hard/discretely to left/rear/right, etc. but in pure mode they're 'mixed' with a Dolby EX or DTS Matrixed ES back channel (as it's matrixed, not discrete). But the new Dolby Surround and Neural X modes use hard (discrete-like) steering instead and they go where they're supposed to no matter where you sit as they now behave like discrete instead of matrixed (more of a steered center extraction versus mixer matrixed effect). Sitting in the center, you can't tell the difference as they stereo image properly regardless.

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post #4091 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Seriously WTF is going on with multiple sites refusing to do their typical bench tests on this model? First Sound & Vision published their review without bench tests, and now Audioholics which typically does a very comprehensive suite of tests doesn't either?

At least we have the Marantz SR8012 bench tests to reference, the X8500H should be similar but slightly better overall: https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...12-bench-tests
+1
Here's my conspiracy theory..
So each one of the above mentioned amps, the 7200, the Marantz 8012 and even the older 4520 IIRC has 44000uF of capacitance. So the transformer is a little larger, but the power is distributed amongst 13 channels, and Denon may be antsy to publish data which looks shabby. I'm sure Denon has done their own tests and what if the power is actually lower than the 8012, which costs about a grand less and has a nice toroidal?
Then AVS members and members of other forums will be up in arms. Stateside class action suits are ten a penny, so I won't be surprised if someone takes Denon to task if the 8500 measures say half of the stipulated numbers stated on the box..
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post #4092 of 4443 Old 05-08-2019, 08:18 PM
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How far back are your rear speakers? I think they only sound 'weird' here with some 5.1 soundtracks using them (like Alan Parsons' ON AIR album) because some 'straight lines' get turned into curves if you have your rear speakers back far enough (e.g. When in track 11 "Blue Blue Sky" the guy walks across the room behind you, he walks in a straight line, but with rear speakers back far enough it sounds more like a horseshoe "U" behind you than a line. But if you have your rear speakers fairly close behind you, it's not that different sounding. Most layouts show rears just behind the couch with the sides directly to the sides of the couch. In my room, I have sides just behind my front row (the matrixed front wides, actually pull the "image" of the sides forward to "sound" like they're directly off to the sides or just behind me) then there's ANOTHER set of side surrounds (matrixed with side + rear) behind that set (between second and third row) with the rear speakers in the back of the room (some 11 feet behind the first set of side surrounds and like 13 feet behind the MLP). So suffice to say that the guy takes a little bit of a detour (a bit less so now with the matrixed side #2 speakers as that pulls it back inward from the MLP vantage point a few more feet and softens the "U" angle to be a much less 'steep' path backwards to the point where it no longer sounds 'totally weird', just a 'little' weird that the guy is walking in a semi-circle now instead of a straight line. With most music, it doesn't hurt it at all as you have no obvious 'line' reference points and with the rear speakers closer, I'd think it'd matter even less.

If I sit off-center (to a seat on the left of center) and use "pure" mode with one of those Dolby demos, the Dolby semi-circle "tones" (and the wave splash rear and side tones) start in weird places. If I don't use "pure" (use as normal), the tones are exactly where they're supposed to be (i.e. it STEERS them hard/discretely to left/rear/right, etc. but in pure mode they're 'mixed' with a Dolby EX or DTS Matrixed ES back channel (as it's matrixed, not discrete). But the new Dolby Surround and Neural X modes use hard (discrete-like) steering instead and they go where they're supposed to no matter where you sit as they now behave like discrete instead of matrixed (more of a steered center extraction versus mixer matrixed effect). Sitting in the center, you can't tell the difference as they stereo image properly regardless.
My rears are something in the range of 10" to 14" behind the surrounds, tweeter to tweeter, so I imagine what you're describing wouldn't be an issue. They are more of an old fashioned centre-rear than a rear surround. The surrounds are a similar distance behind the couch on the corners.
I've seldom found myself happy with any matrixing of studio recorded music, two-channel or multi-channel. I have almost always found the effect, even with just extracting a single centre-rear channel out of a 5.1 mix, to be obvious and detrimental to the mix. I haven't, typically, had this same reaction to concert videos or movies and TV. It's certainly possible that some of that experience may be how EX and ES worked as you described above, I haven't had much experience with Atmos or Neural X.
Also, at the moment, the centre-rears aren't the only issue, as the audio also gets sent to the height speakers I will be swapping out, which has a similar deleterious effect on the mix and aren't really able to pull their weight sonically.
Audyssey makes a huge difference in my room with respect to imaging, so the Discreet modes are unhelpful.
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post #4093 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 09:16 AM
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@morgiastic - It seems when I disable my rears, the rear information comes from behind me a similar distance since my sides are behind me about that distance and image the rear info between them as a phantom image so I'm surprised they bother you as it seems like the difference would be almost negligible at that distance.

Actually, I see little to no need for rear speakers at all in a one row setup unless one sits significantly off center or puts the rears further back to increase the wow factor as sides placed slightly behind you can image in the same location just fine, but then the same is true of front wides and top middle as they phantom image just fine in smaller rooms if you sit in the MLP (Hell so does the center speaker for that matter).

That is why QUAD was figured to be all that was needed to recreate the entire 360 degree circle (at least at bed level) in the 1970s for one listener anyway (nothing beats binaural headphones for the most realism possible really, but people hate wearing headphones like they hate wearing 3D glasses so it had no real chance of becoming mainstream.)


@petetherock - Denon doesn't publish specs on all channels driven at once. The way they quote their power is misleading, IMO and so perhaps something should be done about it (regulation on publishing power claims).

What some people don't seem to get is you shouldn't need full power on all channels anyway since it would be quite loud with all channels driven to even the max it could do outside some really power hungry speakers. Rarely does a soundtrack use all speakers at volume for any length if time, let alone push them to the recording limit.

Given the power supply's limit is I believe 900W on the 8500, it's not going to do more than 69W per channel sustained PERIOD if all are driven to the maximum as that would violate the laws of physics. In reality, the AVR needs power for other sections as well (video processing, GUI, preamp, etc.) and that comes out of that shared power supply too so realistically you're probably looking at somewhere around 40-55 watts per channel maximum RMS all driven at once (peaks higher of course). That will cost you perhaps 4-5dB per channel compared to the 2-channel rating (hardly the end of the world given how loud it would be with 13 channels playing as loud as the can).

I agree advertising 45W RMS all channels driven isn't going to sound good to typical consumers who don't really understand any of it, but are used to seeing >100W numbers on receivers their entire lives. "Why does this cost $4000 again Mr. Sales Guy?"
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post #4094 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 10:20 AM
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Denon doesn't publish specs on all channels driven at once.
Does anyone? Not sure I've ever seen that.

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post #4095 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 11:58 AM
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Denon doesn't publish specs on all channels driven at once.
Does anyone? Not sure I've ever seen that.
I really haven't looked through every manual ever made to verify it one way or another so I don't like making absolute statements. But certainly some reviews have tested such things. This AVR seems to avoid that so far, which is what some seemed concerned about it.

I suppose if the review unit was a loner, they could make that a provision of the review (no bench tests). I'm sure Apple wouldn't loan iPhones if they were going to crack them open, for example, so review sites typically eat the cost to do it first and hope the added traffic will make up for it. $4000 would be a lot to eat, though for an AVR review.

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post #4096 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 12:04 PM
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Does anyone? Not sure I've ever seen that.
Some do. Anthem does. I know I've seen others, too.

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post #4097 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 12:27 PM
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Does anyone? Not sure I've ever seen that.
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The new XPA-7 is a seven-channel audiophile quality power amplifier, and is perfect for powering:
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A high-end 5.1 channel system with bi-amped front speakers
The 7 main channels in an Atmos or DTS-X system with height speakers
Configuration:
7 x High-Powered Single-Channel Modules (all slots populated)

Power output:
200 watts/channel RMS into 8 Ohms; all channels driven
300 watts/channel RMS into 8 Ohms; two channels driven
490 watts/channel RMS into 4 Ohms; two channels driven

7.4.6 system with Denon 8500, Additional Amps: Emotiva (front and center) and NAD (wide), classic Klipsch speakers.
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post #4098 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 01:31 PM
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[QUOTE=MagnumX;58022526]@morgiastic - It seems when I disable my rears, the rear information comes from behind me a similar distance since my sides are behind me about that distance and image the rear info between them as a phantom image so I'm surprised they bother you as it seems like the difference would be almost negligible at that distance.

Actually, I see little to no need for rear speakers at all in a one row setup unless one sits significantly off center or puts the rears further back to increase the wow factor as sides placed slightly behind you can image in the same location just fine, but then the same is true of front wides and top middle as they phantom image just fine in smaller rooms if you sit in the MLP (Hell so does the center speaker for that matter).

That is why QUAD was figured to be all that was needed to recreate the entire 360 degree circle (at least at bed level) in the 1970s for one listener anyway (nothing beats binaural headphones for the most realism possible really, but people hate wearing headphones like they hate wearing 3D glasses so it had no real chance of becoming mainstream.)


QUOTE]


Seems like the headphones time may have come. Although, it seemed like everyone who had a stereo had a pair of headphones back then. Portable devices definitely made all the difference with their proliferation. Don't trust myself with them anymore, just can't resist cranking them up. And, of course, you can't get that same tactile bass.
I find the centre-rears do make a reasonable difference, just not a desirable one for music usually, but I like it with movies and TV. It's probably fair to say that they aren't so helpful in my room, though, not really that big. I find a set-up I've read about in this thread, having Front Wides and no rears, to be interesting. Moving my rears to more of a side surround position would probably provide a more effective and accurate soundstage, given how things seemed to be mixed these days, while allowing me to maintain my current speakers for music. (My mains and surrounds are MTM "bookshelf with a built in stand" style floorstanders, and the centre-rears are TM bookshelves with the same drivers, crossovers, etc.) Unfortunately, that's not a practical possibility the way the room is set-up now.
I ended-up running no centre for a fair while after I got my current speakers as the centre was too heavy and large to sit on top of my RPTV and it took much longer for me to get together a stand than I thought it would. Worked reasonably well in the MLP and I could even see why some people prefer it, but definitely not so great off-axis. I think the centre-rears still make a difference off-axis in my system, but I haven't really played with it in awhile.
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post #4099 of 4443 Old 05-09-2019, 02:01 PM
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I did a run through of the Auro 3D demo disc yesterday in my HT with the X8500. My actual speaker arrangement is the Auro 13.1 exactly. The demo of an airplane flyover with and without the CH and VOG was revealing. Since my upper layer of 5 speakers is at the wall/ceiling 9' high juncture at 45 degrees to the MLP, the overhead flyover without the VOG is done with matrixed sound from the 4 height speakers. VOG adds an exactly overhead sound source and it sounds a lot better. I would say it's like comparing 7.1.4 Atmos with direct radiating speakers with 7.1.4 Atmos with Atmos-enabled upfiring speakers. I can make that comparison because I have 5.1.4 Atmos with atmos-enabled upfiring speakers in my living room. Someone with Dolby Top speakers may not hear the difference I heard. Wish that DTS or Dolby would add a VOG location, since Auro is to all effects dead to the USA. I'd gladly trade one of my Rear surround speakers for a VOG.

So you have CH and VOG yet posted on here earlier and got shot down as not a good idea? Confused? as now thinking I may just add TML TMR overhead ceiling speakers for height as in denon manual?


Current Setup







Proposed Setup 1







Proposed Setup 2




Infocus SP8600 DLP, Denon AVC X8500H, Sony UBP X800 player, Kef 203/1 Main, 202C Center, Kef204ds Surround, HTS 2001 Rear Surround and FP, RP, 2x Kenwood SW-X1 12" Subs fitted DLS DS3004BP plate amps.
Vinyl - Technics SL1210, Reson Reca, Decca London Maroon, Denon 103R, Rotel RQ970BX Modified or EAR834P.

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Does anyone? Not sure I've ever seen that.
Uncommon, but NAD, Mac, and some companies that use it as a badge of honor do.. the D&M, Onkyo, Yammies fudge their numbers a lot..
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post #4101 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Emotiva

XPA-7
That's a dedicated power amp. Most of those will publish that kind of spec. The question is about RECEIVERS.

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post #4102 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Uncommon, but NAD, Mac, and some companies that use it as a badge of honor do.. the D&M, Onkyo, Yammies fudge their numbers a lot..
They don't "fudge" the numbers, they just don't list an all-channels-driven spec. Numerous bench tests support the accuracy of the specs, any AVR that I've seen bench tested meets or exceeds its power rating with 2 channels driven. At least D+M clearly list full bandwidth (20Hz-20kHz) spec with low THD (0.05% or 0.08%), some brands will list a 1Khz spec at 6ohms and high THD to make it seem inflated which is more "fudge" than what D+M does (although to be fair even D+M will reference the inflated 6ohm spec in some marketing copy).

Quote:
Here's my conspiracy theory..
So each one of the above mentioned amps, the 7200, the Marantz 8012 and even the older 4520 IIRC has 44000uF of capacitance. So the transformer is a little larger, but the power is distributed amongst 13 channels, and Denon may be antsy to publish data which looks shabby. I'm sure Denon has done their own tests and what if the power is actually lower than the 8012, which costs about a grand less and has a nice toroidal?
Then AVS members and members of other forums will be up in arms. Stateside class action suits are ten a penny, so I won't be surprised if someone takes Denon to task if the 8500 measures say half of the stipulated numbers stated on the box..
I highly doubt this conspiracy theory. The 8500 is almost 35% heavier (51lbs vs 38lbs) than the 8012, has a bigger power supply than the 8012 (900W rating vs 780W), and the individual amp channels are 150W vs 140W for the Marantz 8012.

Obviously the Denon has to cover 13 channels vs 11 for the Marantz, but that shouldn't affect the power output with 5 or 7 channels driven (which is all that's typically bench tested, I've never seen a 9 or 11 channel ACD test). People act like toroidal transformers are filled with magic pixie dust but there's no reason for the 8500 not to meet or slightly exceed the 8012 bench tests with 2/5/7 channels driven.
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post #4103 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Some do. Anthem does. I know I've seen others, too.
I'm not sure I would use Anthem as a positive example here.

The MRX receiver specs on the website clearly list 2ch driven: https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu...120/page=specs

Plus of course they have semi-crippled amps where only 5 of them are full power (140w) and the remaining are less than half as powerful (60w).

Sound & Vision bench tested the Anthem and it didn't perform well, with even the 5 "main" amps dropping to 70wpc with 5/7ch driven and the 2 extra amps only putting out 37wpc in the 7ch driven test.

People fawn over Anthem AVR's having "real amps" vs the "fake" amps on typical consumer AVR's but it's total BS, the bench tests don't support this myth.
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post #4104 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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Some do. Anthem does. I know I've seen others, too.
I'm not sure I would use Anthem as a positive example here.

The MRX receiver specs on the website clearly list 2ch driven: https://www.anthemav.com/products-cu...120/page=specs

Plus of course they have semi-crippled amps where only 5 of them are full power (140w) and the remaining are less than half as powerful (60w).

Sound & Vision bench tested the Anthem and it didn't perform well, with even the 5 "main" amps dropping to 70wpc with 5/7ch driven and the 2 extra amps only putting out 37wpc in the 7ch driven test.

People fawn over Anthem AVR's having "real amps" vs the "fake" amps on typical consumer AVR's but it's total BS, the bench tests don't support this myth.
I'm referring to their separates. I have the MCA,525.

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post #4105 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm referring to their separates. I have the MCA,525.
OK but as I said above when someone mentioned Emotiva, separate dedicated power amplifiers aren't relevant. The more complete spec is standard for dedicated amps, we are talking about RECEIVERS. And even Anthem doesn't do it with their receivers.
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I'm referring to their separates. I have the MCA,525.
OK but as I said above when someone mentioned Emotiva, separate dedicated power amplifiers aren't relevant. The more complete spec is standard for dedicated amps, we are talking about RECEIVERS. And even Anthem doesn't do it with their receivers.
I don't trust AVR power specs anyway. 😂

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post #4107 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't trust AVR power specs anyway.
No reason not to trust them, as long as you understand they are 2ch driven specs. I've never seen a 3rd party bench test that didn't validate the spec with 2ch driven.

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post #4108 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 04:19 PM
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I highly doubt this conspiracy theory. The 8500 is almost 35% heavier (51lbs vs 38lbs) than the 8012, has a bigger power supply than the 8012 (900W rating vs 780W), and the individual amp channels are 150W vs 140W for the Marantz 8012.

Obviously the Denon has to cover 13 channels vs 11 for the Marantz, but that shouldn't affect the power output with 5 or 7 channels driven (which is all that's typically bench tested, I've never seen a 9 or 11 channel ACD test). People act like toroidal transformers are filled with magic pixie dust but there's no reason for the 8500 not to meet or slightly exceed the 8012 bench tests with 2/5/7 channels driven.
To paraphrase Jerry Maguire :”show me the power ratings”..
Until then we won’t know how well the 8500 performs relative to its cousins and whether the extra weight translates into more power.
The fear I feel is that the measured ratings are so similar to the lesser priced cousins, that it’ll make potential buyers question the price or the need to get this over the 8012 for example. I’ll like to think my 8500 performs better than my old 7200 and it seems to handle 4ohm speakers better, but the proof is in the pudding or in this case the power.. until then all of us are merely shooting the breeze
But I bought this because I feel I also paid for the extra channels and HDMI upgrade potential.

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post #4109 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 04:45 PM
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To paraphrase Jerry Maguire :”show me the power ratings”..
Until then we won’t know how well the 8500 performs relative to its cousins and whether the extra weight translates into more power. I’ll like to think my 8500 performs better than my old 7200 and it seems to handle 4ohm speakers better, but the proof is in the pudding or in this case the power.. until then all of us are merely shooting the breeze
If this is really of concern to you, then you should have investigated the power ratings before purchasing the 8500, not complain about it after the purchase. You either believe your ears or you don't and, consequentially, need some measurements to justify your purchase. If you are not pleased with the performance of the 8500, then just say so.
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post #4110 of 4443 Old 05-10-2019, 04:58 PM
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If this is really of concern to you, then you should have investigated the power ratings before purchasing the 8500, not complain about it after the purchase. You either believe your ears or you don't and, consequentially, need some measurements to justify your purchase. If you are not pleased with the performance of the 8500, then just say so.
Mate
I didn’t say I am not pleased. The musical performance has been good. But hasn’t this forum love talking about numbers? As an owner I don’t feel a need to only say nice things ala Oppo owners..
I don’t believe in only hearing or perpetuating praises.. if the reality is that the measured power is very close to it’s less expensive kin, well, you decide if the extra channels and the ability to accept a HDMI 2.1 upgrade are worth the extra coins.. but there’s no need to feel aggrieved here mate.

I enjoy using it for HT. When I’m really in the mood for critical listening, I use the similarly priced Marantz PM11 (also using 44000uf caps).
Cheers
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