The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 06:45 AM
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And our own topic about SU+Ponkyo is here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ome-audio.html

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post #4142 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zimmo View Post
WOW the new sound united marantz and denon BUY onkyo and pioneer.
Nothing like a good game of Monopoly in the morning to cheer you up (if you're the winner) or bring you down (if you're the loser).

On the one hand, we might see Auro-3D added to two more brands (as if it matters at this point barring some major development). On the other, I'm thinking we're eventually going to end up with more "nearly" identical AVRs (like Denon and Marantz right now) with different name plates on them. Sure, the amps might be somewhat different. They might even use a different room correction system (maybe), but they save a lot of investment money by making ONE basic core receiver and then just putting some piddling differences in to advertise like it's actually "different" when it's barely different (again D&M, 7ch-inputs on the Marantz models and HDAM circuits + audiophile name = higher retail price, but otherwise identical to the same model Denon (save the 8500 which stands alone for 13-amp channels). In general, killing competition is BAD for the consumer. Not only do you often have fewer choices, but prices start creeping up sooner or later as well because they just CAN.
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post #4143 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Nothing like a good game of Monopoly in the morning to cheer you up (if you're the winner) or bring you down (if you're the loser).
That is a bummer, we need competition to get better devises......

So SOUND UNITED ( AKA Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, and Pioneer ) VS Yamaha and Anthem. More or less
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post #4144 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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The reality is that Onkyo would possibly go under if Sound United hadn't purchased them. They lost backing from Gibson guitars, which owned a stake in Onkyo but had to pull out due to its own financial problems.
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post #4145 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 05:31 PM
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9 BILLION people in the world and Gibson can't manage to sell a few guitars...amazing. I guess people are too busy playing with their cell phones to learn an actual skill these days.
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post #4146 of 4447 Old 05-15-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
9 BILLION people in the world and Gibson can't manage to sell a few guitars...amazing. I guess people are too busy playing with their cell phones to learn an actual skill these days.
I'm too lazy to look it up, but Gibson had bought a bunch of other companies, and was not just a guitar company any more. I'm sure it's all in their wikipedia page.

ETA: A quick skimming of the Wiki page brings this TL: DR
It looks like they expanded into Pro and Home Audio, lost their shirt, and retreated back to guitars, more or less, after a bankruptcy. So, yes, guitar sales are down, but that is actually where they are still making their money.
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post #4147 of 4447 Old 05-16-2019, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig
That's a dedicated power amp. Most of those will publish that kind of spec. The question is about RECEIVERS.

I don't mean to belabor a point or diffuse your ability to out of hand reject a post, however, it seems to me that an amp is an amp whether it is connected to a processor (or an all caps receiver) or not. If Emotiva can give us all channel specs on their amps, Denon should be able to do the same.



In UK EU we don't get an AM/FM Receiver its just the Amp with Network Radio. Model nr. AVC X8500H

So we get more power to the amps......


*I do agree it would be nice to have full specs Watts RMS 20hz-20khz at whatever distortion 0.5%? with All 13 channels (7ch and 5ch also) driven 4 and 8ohm. Does no-one test properly these days?
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post #4148 of 4447 Old 05-18-2019, 07:00 PM
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I'm having a very weird problem. Actually, a couple of problems.

Equipment:
Denon X8500H
OPPO 203 UHD player - set to Bitstream, Secondary Audio turned off

I'm on the latest firmware for the X8500H, but I noticed this problem before I installed it. The firmware update did not fix it.

I alternate between two configurations:
9.1.4 (Front Wide, Surround Back, Front Height & Rear Height) for Dolby Atmos soundtracks.
9.1.2 (FW, SB, FH) with Neural:X upmixing for everything else (due to the DTS 11-channel limit).

I have also tested other configurations without the Front Wides. Disabling those didn't make a difference.

Playing: Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark calibration Blu-ray.



This disc has 7.1 test tones in your choice of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio formats.

PROBLEM 1

9.1.2 configuration.

Playing Dolby TrueHD 7.1 test tones with my default setting of the Neural:X upmixer, the Surround Back tones play from the left and right Surround speakers. The Surround Back speakers never turn on.

The receiver's own internal test tones work correctly from all speakers. The Info menu shows that the SB speakers should be active, but no sound comes from them. It repeats in the Surround speakers instead.

This only happens using Neural:X. Using the regular TrueHD setting or TrueHD with Dolby Surround Upmixer, the tones play from the SB speakers.

I next put in a regular movie discs with both Dolby TrueHD 5.1 (The Dark Knight) and TrueHD 7.1 (Legend of the Fist) soundtracks. Neural:X seemed to work correctly on both. I heard audio from both the FW and SB speakers. But it will not work with the TrueHD 7.1 test tones on the Spears & Munsil disc.

PROBLEM 2

Also 9.1.2 configuration.

The DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 test tones will play from all 7 ground speakers, but the Neural:X upmixer has vanished from my list of Surround Mode options. I can choose raw DTS-HD MA, DTS-HD with Dolby Surround, or Auro-3D, but Neural:X is completely gone!



Neural:X is available when playing the TrueHD 7.1 test tones, but not the DTS-MA test tones.



Again, I followed this up by playing a regular movie disc. Deadpool has a DTS-HD MA 7.1 soundtrack. Neural:X is available this time.



Further, when using it, I do get audio from both FW and SB speakers.

I also tried a disc with a DTS:X soundtrack (A Beautiful Planet). I could hear audio from the Surround Backs, but not the Front Wides. After a moment of puzzling over this, I remembered that most DTS:X tracks are authored as 7.1.4 channels with no sound objects, so the FW speakers will never get used with those. I guess I'll switch to the Atmos configuration with 4 heights when playing those.

I suppose the most obvious conclusion should be that there's something wrong with the authoring of the Spears & Munsil disc. I could swear that I've played this disc in the past and never had these problems before, but I'm not sure I was using Neural:X at the time. Since the SB speakers work fine with DSU engaged, the issue may not have ever come up until now.

Even if it is a disc authoring problem, though, how does that explain why the Neural:X option vanishes from the X8500's Surround Mode menu?

Can anyone else who has a copy of this disc test with Neural:X to confirm if you see the same thing? Thanks.
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post #4149 of 4447 Old 05-19-2019, 04:44 AM
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Hi.
Thinking of an Denon AVC-X8500H denon to drive 13 speakers + sub without the help of an external amplifier for a layout 9.1.4 , I'm interested in a layout with amplitude diffuser insertion in addition to the four Dolby Atmos height speakers.

The question is , Denon AVC-X8500H would be fine to drive 6 ohm speakers from Wharfedale and Dali without going into crisis ?
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post #4150 of 4447 Old 05-19-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost_62 View Post
Hi.
Thinking of an Denon AVC-X8500H denon to drive 13 speakers + sub without the help of an external amplifier for a layout 9.1.4 , I'm interested in a layout with amplitude diffuser insertion in addition to the four Dolby Atmos height speakers.

The question is , Denon AVC-X8500H would be fine to drive 6 ohm speakers from Wharfedale and Dali without going into crisis ?
The Dali's seem a bit easier to drive than Wharfedale but the power supply on the 8500 should handle either with ease.

My estimate of the Zensor 1's voltage sensitivity was 88dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is both surprisingly high for such a small speaker and 1.5dB higher than specified. The plot of the DALI's impedance magnitude and electrical phase (fig.1) suggests that the speaker is relatively easy to drive. The minimum impedance is 5 ohms, and though the phase angle is quite large around 100Hz, the impedance magnitude is also high, mitigating the adverse effect of the phase angle



I measured the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1's frequency response in the farfield with DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone. For the nearfield measurements, I used an Earthworks QTC-40 microphone. The Diamond 10.1 is of below-average voltage sensitivity, at an estimated 86dB/2.83V/m, though this agrees with the specified figure. The impedance drops below 4 ohms in the lower midrange, reaching a minimum value of 3.6 ohms at 190Hz (fig.1), but the speaker is otherwise fairly easy for the partnering amplifier to drive. An amplifier or receiver rated into 4 ohms will have no problems with the Diamond 10.1.





Spoiler!
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post #4151 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 12:27 AM
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Thanks . So , from what I read there should be no problems with my speakers Wharfedale 9.6 and Wharfedale 10.2 more Dali Alteco C1.
Currently in progress with my current layout 9.1 Wharfedale 9.6 are connected with Bi-wiring connection (double cable) to limit the effect of signal interference between the high range (tweeter) and low range (woofer) speakers.
Implementing this connection with 13 speakers + Subwoofer also for Denon AVC-X8500H , it is advisable ?
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post #4152 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Alanlee View Post
I don't mean to belabor a point or diffuse your ability to out of hand reject a post, however, it seems to me that an amp is an amp whether it is connected to a processor (or an all caps receiver) or not. If Emotiva can give us all channel specs on their amps, Denon should be able to do the same.
I agree they should, however they don't because they know they won't meet the numbers on the box.. that's why if you read their details specs carefully, it's some fudged specs - eg two channels driven, or some power at 6ohms, or at a single frequency..
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post #4153 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Lost_62 View Post
Hi.
Thinking of an Denon AVC-X8500H denon to drive 13 speakers + sub without the help of an external amplifier for a layout 9.1.4 , I'm interested in a layout with amplitude diffuser insertion in addition to the four Dolby Atmos height speakers.

The question is , Denon AVC-X8500H would be fine to drive 6 ohm speakers from Wharfedale and Dali without going into crisis ?
I'm using 4ohm Dynaudios, and some Ushers and two pairs of AG A'Divas.. and a pair of 8ohm MAs. No issues at all. With a good subwoofer taking most of the heat in a HT system, it should be fine.
Unlike the 4810, it doesn't go into the emasculated mode to protect itself. It's armed with more fans and fins to keep it going under duress.
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post #4154 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 04:51 AM
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I am strongly tempted by Denon ACV-X8500H. although I must say it turns out to be a strong investment in money. I have a monkey on my shoulder.
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post #4155 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I agree they should, however they don't because they know they won't meet the numbers on the box.. that's why if you read their details specs carefully, it's some fudged specs - eg two channels driven, or some power at 6ohms, or at a single frequency..
Yeah I suppose we can be accused of being hung-up on minutia, but there is plenty of very valuable minutia on this thread. The 8500 is a beast, and has more than enough power for my needs. I am not going to think any less of the device if someone tells me how much power it has running all the channels, even though I probably never or seldom run all channels especially since I use additional external amps.

Theo Nicolakis of Audioholics posted a glowing review of the 8500 in early May, and unless I missed it, he did not test the 8500 for all channels driven. https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...eceiver-review

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post #4156 of 4447 Old 05-20-2019, 05:46 AM
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Running a lab to test power is not cheap, so not everyone can do it..
And like I suggested earlier.. perhaps the figures aren't much better than the older 7200 or even the newer 8012, so they decided to be more discrete and economical with their review publications..
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post #4157 of 4447 Old 05-21-2019, 10:32 AM
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Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2CH AV Receiver Review Discussion

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post #4158 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post
Wow - great discussion! I had difficulty following your link, but I googled your headline and found the interview. One issue that came out in the review and the discussion is that they are recommending a dedicated 20 amp circuit (home run) for the 8500.

It is a lot of fun to hear experts saying good things about the AVR one has.

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post #4159 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 07:54 AM
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Maybe I missed it - it's fifty over minutes, but did they mention doing the real power measurements?
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post #4160 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 09:37 AM
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Maybe I missed it - it's fifty over minutes, but did they mention doing the real power measurements?
Look at 45 min 30 seconds of the video.
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post #4161 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 12:32 PM
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Wow - great discussion! I had difficulty following your link, but I googled your headline and found the interview. One issue that came out in the review and the discussion is that they are recommending a dedicated 20 amp circuit (home run) for the 8500.

It is a lot of fun to hear experts saying good things about the AVR one has.

I watched the video and have a question about the 20 amp ckt for the 8500. They never mentioned any thing about a power conditioner. I have a Panamax and a Furman which has 2 high current outlets for subs and AVR. I hope a 20 ckt to the Furman would be ok as I would never plug my 8500 into a 20 amp outlet without protection. Does anyone have a suggestion for the issue?
Thanks in advance Bob
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post #4162 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 02:18 PM
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I watched the video and have a question about the 20 amp ckt for the 8500. They never mentioned any thing about a power conditioner. I have a Panamax and a Furman which has 2 high current outlets for subs and AVR. I hope a 20 ckt to the Furman would be ok as I would never plug my 8500 into a 20 amp outlet without protection. Does anyone have a suggestion for the issue?
Thanks in advance Bob
20 Amp power conditioners are available, including from Furman, or maybe I'm not understanding the issue

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post #4163 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 03:04 PM
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20 Amp power conditioners are available, including from Furman, or maybe I'm not understanding the issue
I understand now Matt I only have a 15 amp Power conditioner (that sucks for me) I bought awhile back before knowing about this.
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post #4164 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 03:17 PM
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I understand now Matt I only have a 15 amp Power conditioner (that sucks for me) I bought awhile back before knowing about this.
Bummer 20 amp units aren't cheap either!

May not be a real problem unless you listen quite high in volume. Plus it depends on how many channels are being driven at a high level No doubt the power supply capacitors can provide some juice for short term peaks.

IF I get a chance to own one of these I'd be running it off a 15 Amp circuit, at least to start. I'm in a small, 1,100 cuft, sealed room so it might do just fine plus I'm only ~6 feet from the LCR speakers.

Best of luck,
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post #4165 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 06:48 PM
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Maybe I missed it - it's fifty over minutes, but did they mention doing the real power measurements?
No not specifically - they danced around the issue, and I think they said - they trust Denon, which is also my opinion.

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post #4166 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
20 Amp power conditioners are available, including from Furman, or maybe I'm not understanding the issue
Power conditioners are good - I think they are talking about circuit breakers: you know a dedicated 20 amp circuit with maybe 12/3 and nothing else hooked to the line but the 8500. Some electricians call it a "home run." Circuit breakers are inexpensive; running the 12/3 might be $$$ - unless you do it yourself.
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Last edited by Alanlee; 05-22-2019 at 06:59 PM.
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post #4167 of 4447 Old 05-22-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanlee View Post
Power conditioners are good - I think they are talking about circuit breakers: you know a dedicated 20 amp circuit with maybe 12/3 and nothing else hooked to the line but the 8500. Some electricians call it a "home run." Circuit breakers are inexpensive; running the 12/3 might be $$$ - unless you do it yourself.

Yep...circuit breakers...20 amps to ensure there is plenty of headroom for the 8500 to stretch if and when needed during high/extreme demand. A power conditioner adds piece of mind...clean and uniform power and typically with some level of surge protection.
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post #4168 of 4447 Old 05-23-2019, 08:31 AM
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20A wall power sockets - check
+ direct solid coper cable from the mains at the gate to the den, with the specific distributor box that only supplies the power to the hifi system - check
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post #4169 of 4447 Old 05-23-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kee68 View Post
I watched the video and have a question about the 20 amp ckt for the 8500. They never mentioned any thing about a power conditioner. I have a Panamax and a Furman which has 2 high current outlets for subs and AVR. I hope a 20 ckt to the Furman would be ok as I would never plug my 8500 into a 20 amp outlet without protection. Does anyone have a suggestion for the issue?
Thanks in advance Bob
I've used one of these for 10 years now - https://www.panamax.com/sites/panama...500-manual.pdf

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit run into my theater, and another 15 amp circuit just for the outlets in the " bonus room " that became the home theater. Between those, I've never had a problem running first a SIM Lumis Host projector and Denon 4520 and now a JVC RS4500 projector and Denon X8500. I also have a Parasound Halo A 52+ amp, and run 13 channels of 4 ohm Martin Logan Motion Series speakers. I have two SVS PC12 Plus cylinder subs and two SVS SB2000 subs plugged into the room's convenience outlets. Also, an Oppo 203, Lumagen Radiance Pro, two AC Infinity Aircom T8 cooling fans. No power problems ! Even cranked to reference + 3 ! In fact, had friends over last night that wanted to watch " Bohemian Rhapsody " in 4K, and I had the last Live Aid potion cranked beyond reference. Sounded glorious !
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post #4170 of 4447 Old 05-24-2019, 08:15 AM
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For people with more or less "normal" wiring to their viewing room: One thing to keep in mind is the outlets. Change the standard 15 amp outlets to 20 amp "Hospital-grade" outlets. They have a firmer grip on the plug prongs. If you shop around, you can find these in beige, rather than the standard orange color, if you prefer. The hospital grade outlet will have a green dot on it's face. Also, be sure to use the screw terminals on your outlets. Some builders save time and use the "push-in" wire holes on the back of an outlet. Also, if your room does not have a dedicated line from the breaker box to your media center, be sure that any outlets that are series wired before the one you are using for your media center use the screw terminals, as well.
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