The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 152 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4531 of 4572 Old 08-05-2019, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
If I were to select ONE additional channel, I would go for center height. For those of us with non-AT projection screens, moving the dialog to a phantom center of the screen would be the best use, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Unfortunately, the "Center Height" speaker is NOT intended for a "dialogue lift" phantom center effect to raise the perceived height of the dialogue to the center of the screen.

Plus the "Center Height" speaker is only really relevant to Auro3D currently.

So while the X8500H does support the "Center Height" speaker location, enabling it in your setup won't actually address the issue you're hoping it would solve.

(and FYI to be clear I realize you may be aware of everything I just said, just wanted that to be clear for the general discussion)
I have implemented the "Dialog Lift" using an external stereo mixer and an external little amp. It works very well for me. See the attached diagram. (Thank you MagnumX for the idea and recommendation)

This way you can have a "copy" of C signal to the CH speaker, adjustable in volume with the volume knobs of the mixer. Also, you have available the CH Signal (when used and configured in the 8500, mainly for Auro-3D. Also adjustable in volume from the mixer.

You don't use the internal amp of the 8500 to feed the CH Speaker. Use the SMSL SA-50 instead. BUT you have to "custom" configure one of the Heights output to TS/CH (Auro-3D) to get CH output in the pre-out. The "unused" amp from the 8500 cannot be used for anything else. its output is just the single CH signal, that you get from the external amp.

Once I have adjusted "by ear" the volume to have the sound coming from the center of the screen, I run Auddyssey afterwards with that "combined" C speakers. I mention here that Auddissey detected reverse polarity for the CH speaker, and I confirmed afterwards with the mono voltage amplitud test. Just had to reverse the red and black output wires from the SMSL SA-50 amp.

I also have other configurations (save & load in the 8500) to make "lift" also from the L, R frontal column speakers to the Front Height Speakers. Just "custom" assign "Front" to the Front Height output and have the Fronts replicated.

A wonderful flexibility of "Custom" on the 8500
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post #4532 of 4572 Old 08-05-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The issue with this approach is that the VOG speaker can't be dual-purposed to act as Top Middle for x.x.6 Atmos playback.

It would be fantastic if the X8500H was smart enough to use the same pair of speakers as Top Middle for Atmos and dual-mono VOG for Auro3D. Alas, this kind of dynamic remapping is a feature only found on more expensive processors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Absolutely. It's either/or for the two. You "makes your choice" for one or the other. It is nice that the X8500 can sort out Auro 3D's 13 speaker locations from those of Atmos (and hopefully 13 ch DTS:X if it ever comes), but as you say it isn't smart enough (or programmed enough) to do anything else.
That's too bad that it can't be used for both. Going from .4 to .6 is a lot less attractive now. I thought since the 8500 had the customizable speaker configuration that it could possibly do that.

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post #4533 of 4572 Old 08-05-2019, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
That's too bad that it can't be used for both. Going from .4 to .6 is a lot less attractive now. I thought since the 8500 had the customizable speaker configuration that it could possibly do that.
To have such flexibility using the 8500 customizable speakers output settings, you eventually have to add some kind of Speaker switches, and select different speakers for different configurations, as I have done.

To change configuration:

1- Switch Speakers
2- Change 8500 settings (load from USB stick)

Not too much automation, but that's what we have...

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post #4534 of 4572 Old 08-05-2019, 07:02 PM
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I had a dream last night that I found an AVR-X8500h brand new for $2700 from an authorized dealer and I kept checking my porch every morning when I woke up like a kid waiting for Christmas Day.......

Oh man, this search for an AVR is pervading my dreams now!
When you have those types of dreams it probably time to bust a move
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post #4535 of 4572 Old 08-06-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AYanguas View Post
I have implemented the "Dialog Lift" using an external stereo mixer and an external little amp. It works very well for me. See the attached diagram. (Thank you MagnumX for the idea and recommendation)

This way you can have a "copy" of C signal to the CH speaker, adjustable in volume with the volume knobs of the mixer. Also, you have available the CH Signal (when used and configured in the 8500, mainly for Auro-3D. Also adjustable in volume from the mixer.

You don't use the internal amp of the 8500 to feed the CH Speaker. Use the SMSL SA-50 instead. BUT you have to "custom" configure one of the Heights output to TS/CH (Auro-3D) to get CH output in the pre-out. The "unused" amp from the 8500 cannot be used for anything else. its output is just the single CH signal, that you get from the external amp.

Once I have adjusted "by ear" the volume to have the sound coming from the center of the screen, I run Auddyssey afterwards with that "combined" C speakers. I mention here that Auddissey detected reverse polarity for the CH speaker, and I confirmed afterwards with the mono voltage amplitud test. Just had to reverse the red and black output wires from the SMSL SA-50 amp.

I also have other configurations (save & load in the 8500) to make "lift" also from the L, R frontal column speakers to the Front Height Speakers. Just "custom" assign "Front" to the Front Height output and have the Fronts replicated.

A wonderful flexibility of "Custom" on the 8500

Clever stuff but could you not take the pre-out for the center to a mono amp to power a center speaker (or powered speaker) placed high? in addition to the low one.

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post #4536 of 4572 Old 08-06-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Clever stuff but could you not take the pre-out for the center to a mono amp to power a center speaker (or powered speaker) placed high? in addition to the low one.
Yes. This more simple solution that you mention would implement the Center Dialog lift.

But with the Mixer I have also the functionality of the real CH speaker, when configured for Auro-3D. And also have the possibility of enable/disable the C signal (if wanted for Auro-3D music) or eliminate CH signal (when the pre-out outputs Top Middle signal when configuring Atmos 7.1.6)

It is true that there is very few Auro-3D content and that the format seems to be dead for Home Entertainment. But as I have invested in the 8500 and like the Auromatic for the majority of music, and even for some movies, I don't want to loose the CH functionality.

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post #4537 of 4572 Old 08-06-2019, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Clever stuff but could you not take the pre-out for the center to a mono amp to power a center speaker (or powered speaker) placed high? in addition to the low one.
That IS what he did, EXCEPT he mixes in the AVR's "center height" output as well (for Auro-3D) (that's the point of the mixer) so that when he watches Auro-3D movies, he gets center height output and the dialog lift from ONE speaker. In other words, the mixer lets you mix the dialog effect in with the signals that are going to that same speaker too. It'd be nice if Atmos used CH as well, but it doesn't even when there are sounds in that vicinity. You could extract them instead ("Scatmos" style center output extraction sent to the center height speaker would allow it to be used for all signals and could be mixed in as well).

I can't fit a center height speaker in my room so I use the left/right height speakers for dialog lift (like a Yamaha AVR has the option internally to do). I mix L/R/C in with L/R Height in a mixer and I can control their levels separately with the mixer. This lets me "lift" the entire front soundstage evenly so it goes across the center of the screen instead of below it where the L/C/R speakers sit. It would be better if there were a center height speaker for this so the dialog is perfectly locked for off-center seats, but the screen comes down from the ceiling so there's no room for one. It's only slightly off center for off-center seats since most of the signal is still from the lower center speaker and it's perfect for the center line seats.
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post #4538 of 4572 Old 08-06-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Clever stuff but could you not take the pre-out for the center to a mono amp to power a center speaker (or powered speaker) placed high? in addition to the low one.

This method also allows you to experiment with the effects of comb filtering.
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post #4539 of 4572 Old 08-06-2019, 12:27 PM
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Just maybe lost in translation.... Might given me something else to play with....

especially with the idea also that I wanted to fit a VOG central ceiling speaker but mono-ing the pair I fitted for atmos may will be good enough. in the end I can't find much in Auro but still want to play.

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post #4540 of 4572 Old 08-09-2019, 04:50 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
What you're missing is the distinction between "I wished it worked this way" vs. an actual bug. What you are doing, trying to switch between three different speaker layouts, is NOT part of SOP for this unit. The expectation is that you will have one speaker layout, configure and calibrate, and then off you go. The fact that people are trying to leverage the app or USB saves to switch between different context-specific layouts doesn't mean it's a "bug" that D+M doesn't do it in a way that's logical for you.



For example, as JD noted above when you switch from a 6 height layout to a 4 height layout, the AVR doesn't "know" that you are doing this weird stuff, it's perfectly logical for it to assume that the two height pairs are connected to Height1 and Height2.



You can mitigate the FH+RH vs. FH+TM+RH issue by using the "Custom" mode, but as we all know that doesn't solve the FW issue on Height4. So again, I think the solution for you is to use a 2ch amp on the FW speakers so they are removed from the internal amp assign calculus.



Or, even better, if you already have external amps for Front L/R (which I assume since you have them set to "None" in the custom amp assign) you should use those amps for Front Wide. Set the "Front" assignment to "Front Wide" and then Height 1/2/3 is dedicated to the three pairs of overheads, and you should be good to go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Eitan ...

Via 13.1 amp assign mode, FH+TM+RH

Physically connected as assigned







Now, 13.1 amp assign mode for FW+FH+RH, Physically connected as assigned





So 4 pairs of wires are connected as shown above.. one would therefore assume using 13.1 amp Assign mode for FW+FH+TM, one would think they use the already established locations in the other 2 configurations..

So far so good... seems ok





But wait, TM is moved here to where RH was ... why??

It should be kept at height #3 location , right?





Well ok, I then tried custom amp assign, thinking I could flexible assign any of the four last physical layout locations to the 3 amps ....

Custom amp assign.... looks exactly same on this screen as 13.1 amp assign





Yet here height #4 is grayed out, can’t access it, and they want me to use height #3





What am I missing here?

You really think I’m ..... off base ?

If so, then we can only agree we disagree ...





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There has been a firmware upgrade between when I last tried this in April and now, it "works" and I have 2 Audyssey Apps files saved that allow me to switch between 9.2.4 and 7.2.6 w/o physical changing any speaker wire ....
>>I use 13.1 ch assign mode for 9.2.4, and then keeping those same physical speaker locations on the AVR, I now use custom assign mode for 7.2.6,
Thank you Denon for fixing this.
Custom mode


Speaker assignment
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Last edited by mtbdudex; 08-09-2019 at 05:01 AM.
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post #4541 of 4572 Old 08-09-2019, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
There has been a firmware upgrade between when I last tried this in April and now, it "works" and I have 2 Audyssey Apps files saved that allow me to switch between 9.2.4 and 7.2.6 w/o physical changing any speaker wire ....
>>I use 13.1 ch assign mode for 9.2.4, and then keeping those same physical speaker locations on the AVR, I now use custom assign mode for 7.2.6,
Thank you Denon for fixing this.
Very cool! But are you sure this was actually a change? What you were talking about before (if I understood you correctly) was using "Custom" mode for both use cases, which would require the Height4 outputs to be assignable in Custom mode. From your images it appears this is still not possible, so they didn't actually change Custom mode to make Height4 accessible. Rather, you are switching from Custom to a separate Amp Assign mode where the Front Wide output defaults to Height 4.

Are you sure you couldn't have done this before?

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post #4542 of 4572 Old 08-14-2019, 01:30 PM
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Need help again. Posted before about my UK x8500H dispalying teh FM and AM tuning when on external Tuner input.
The UK EU version doesn't have an inbuilt tuner. Denon advised might be region setting on HDMI board (which has been replaced)
Firmware reset as advised by Denon Support had no effect.
So checked Firmware number which is
7300-0114-1141-5005 after update.

Now is this the problem? Is this a USA specific Firmware? I can't find a Firmware number for a UK EU update but suspect it may be different.
I can't find how to download a UK Firmware to my Computer to try via USB
This is now driving me a bit nutzo.
Anyone in UK care to check what Firmware number they are on and post it?


Edit: just F/W reset again To firmware 7330-1032-3161-0034 but no change to problem

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Last edited by aviaction; 08-14-2019 at 02:24 PM.
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post #4543 of 4572 Old 08-14-2019, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Need help again. Posted before about my UK x8500H dispalying teh FM and AM tuning when on external Tuner input.
The UK EU version doesn't have an inbuilt tuner. Denon advised might be region setting on HDMI board (which has been replaced)
Firmware reset as advised by Denon Support had no effect.
So checked Firmware number which is
7300-0114-1141-5005 after update.

Now is this the problem? Is this a USA specific Firmware? I can't find a Firmware number for a UK EU update but suspect it may be different.
I can't find how to download a UK Firmware to my Computer to try via USB
This is now driving me a bit nutzo.
Anyone in UK care to check what Firmware number they are on and post it?


Edit: just F/W reset again To firmware 7330-1032-3161-0034 but no change to problem
AFAIK, firmware updates are region specific.

https://firmware.denon.eu/
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post #4544 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
AFAIK, firmware updates are region specific.

https://firmware.denon.eu/

That website is a POS. There are no firmware downloads available.



What I am trying to find out If my EU unit has USA Firmware which is causing the issue.


Just need someone in UK EU to put on here what Firmware they are currently on.


Might also help me to know if the HDMI board has the Chip (ROM) that holds/controls Firmware as this is what I syuspect has been replaced.

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post #4545 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
That website is a POS. There are no firmware downloads available.
Apparently, although the actual firmware update was provided for non-HEOS models, Denon EU is no longer providing it for the HEOS models.
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post #4546 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 04:10 AM
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Thanks just had email from Denon. It appears the replacement HDMI board has been set for the incorrect region, and it has to go to a service centre again.....


Had enough. When it comes back it will be getting sold on ( should get my money back) and I'll go back to a Yamaha....and 11x speakers.

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post #4547 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 08:44 AM
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I have a question that I feel has been asked and answered, but I’m not sure I have the information I’m looking for.

I want to set my inputs (I’m not going to be using HEOS or the Denon native music streaming, but instead apps will be native to C4) to play certain profiles as their defaults.

For example - for the video sources, I’d like the AVR to process the native audio format and play through the speakers named and intended for those several audio profiles. But for my steaming music, I’d like the Denon to recognize other speakers as “fronts” - they’ll be front heights in the video input profile.

I see people have talked about a usb stick with settings, but I have to assume this is something I can program into the processor via a menu?


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post #4548 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich428 View Post
I have a question that I feel has been asked and answered, but I’m not sure I have the information I’m looking for.

I want to set my inputs (I’m not going to be using HEOS or the Denon native music streaming, but instead apps will be native to C4) to play certain profiles as their defaults.

For example - for the video sources, I’d like the AVR to process the native audio format and play through the speakers named and intended for those several audio profiles. But for my steaming music, I’d like the Denon to recognize other speakers as “fronts” - they’ll be front heights in the video input profile.

I see people have talked about a usb stick with settings, but I have to assume this is something I can program into the processor via a menu?


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Not possible to store more than one speaker configuration on the AVR at one time, which is why separate USB sticks are required for each configuration you desire.
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post #4549 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich428 View Post
I have a question that I feel has been asked and answered, but I’m not sure I have the information I’m looking for.

I want to set my inputs (I’m not going to be using HEOS or the Denon native music streaming, but instead apps will be native to C4) to play certain profiles as their defaults.

For example - for the video sources, I’d like the AVR to process the native audio format and play through the speakers named and intended for those several audio profiles. But for my steaming music, I’d like the Denon to recognize other speakers as “fronts” - they’ll be front heights in the video input profile.

I see people have talked about a usb stick with settings, but I have to assume this is something I can program into the processor via a menu?
This kind of stored "profile" that can be recalled with a single button and remap the speaker outputs on the fly is simply not possible with any AVR that I'm aware of. That type of feature is the province of high end processors like Datasat and Trinnov.

You can do this manually with the X8500H by going into the Amp Assign menu and remapping the speaker outputs in Custom amp assign mode, or by loading a saved profile (taking about a minute to switch), but not something you can program into a control system like C4 to send discrete commands to switch.

The easiest option, if you don't want to use your standard front speakers for music listening, would be to use a separate pair of speakers for streaming music, either setting them as Zone 2/3 speakers or as "Front B" if you want more automatic switching. Note that the latter would require you to give up 2 channels of processing for surround sound (i.e. the 11.1ch + Front B setting), but you can configure it to automatically switch to the "B" speakers for 2ch listening and also configure different levels / bass management settings for 2ch listening.
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post #4550 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 10:39 AM
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Not possible to store more than one speaker configuration on the AVR at one time, which is why separate USB sticks are required for each configuration you desire.


I don’t have the x8500 installed yet. I’ve been overthinking the whole situation and finally ended up with the X8500. I wonder if Control4 can program so infinitely that it could grab the USB file each time. Hmmm? Question for another forum, but you never know.


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post #4551 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 10:49 AM
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@jdsmoothie

I’m not really versed at this, so please help me understand some things.

What if I were do separately amp for 2 channel music? But how would I control that? Just C4 into that amp? I have audio out (other than HDMI) on my C4 controller. But would I need two sets of speaker wire? It’s all confusing and people (not here or at C4) I don’t entirely trust keep saying “no way”.


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post #4552 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 11:30 AM
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@jdsmoothie

I’m not really versed at this, so please help me understand some things.

What if I were do separately amp for 2 channel music? But how would I control that? Just C4 into that amp? I have audio out (other than HDMI) on my C4 controller. But would I need two sets of speaker wire? It’s all confusing and people (not here or at C4) I don’t entirely trust keep saying “no way”.


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Not sure if possible to program it in C4; however, if you use a dedicated set of speakers, setting them as Front B and then changing the <Front Speaker> setting to "B" would meet your use case.

Also note, that although possible to use the AMP ASSIGN = Custom mode to assign the "Front L/R" to the "Height 1 L/R" speakers (setting all other speakers to "None") would disable Audyssey.
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post #4553 of 4572 Old 08-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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@jdsmoothie

I’m not really versed at this, so please help me understand some things.

What if I were do separately amp for 2 channel music? But how would I control that? Just C4 into that amp? I have audio out (other than HDMI) on my C4 controller. But would I need two sets of speaker wire? It’s all confusing and people (not here or at C4) I don’t entirely trust keep saying “no way”.


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I have 15 speakers (and 2 subwoofers) wired for 9.2.4 and 7.2.6.
Switching between both via the app takes 2-ish minutes.

Not automated, but not rocket science to do it either. You should be able to do similar.





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post #4554 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 09:49 AM
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Hi everyone,
I was just about to buy the Denon X8500H and then thought why not to read the forum here, glad that i did that !.

I only have 6 speakers setup of -
2 Floor-standing front (Monitor Audio Gold)
1 Center (B&W HTM62)
2 Front height (Morel SP3)
2 Sides (Morel SP3)
1 Monitor Audio 12" Sub
+ optional soon to have 2 back (Morel SP3).

I love listening to FLAC music from my PC and watching movies.

Will the Denon X8500H is an overkill for my medium size living room? i do not need all of these channels but i do want high quality for the ones i currently have :-)

Should i consider the 6500 or 4500 instead ?

Thank you !
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Yes I would consider the X8500H to be overkill if you're not going to take advantage of the 13ch capability. Maybe consider a Marantz model (e.g. SR7013) which are considered a bit more musical than the comparable Denon.

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post #4556 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM
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Yes I would consider the X8500H to be overkill if you're not going to take advantage of the 13ch capability. Maybe consider a Marantz model (e.g. SR7013) which are considered a bit more musical than the comparable Denon.
Thanks! will the Marantz SR7013 will have the same auto room speakers & sub setup similar to the high end models in Denon?
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post #4557 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes the Marantz 7013 has the exact same Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ calibration features.

It's basically a Denon X4500H souped up with Marantz proprietary tuning.

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post #4558 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 11:24 AM
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Yes the Marantz 7013 has the exact same Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ calibration features.

It's basically a Denon X4500H souped up with Marantz proprietary tuning.
Thank you for this great info. If its 'X4500H' souped up, shouldn't the X6500H will be a better option in music & movies playing? (considering they are both in a very close price in my country).
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post #4559 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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The X6500H is a bit higher quality in terms of build and the amp section (it's made in Japan) but the Marantz has the upgraded, proprietary HDAM analog circuitry which is supposed to make it sound a bit more "transparent" and "musical". The best of both worlds is the Marantz SR8012 which is based on the X6400/6500 platform but I was trying to save you some money
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post #4560 of 4572 Old Yesterday, 01:25 PM
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Thanks! will the Marantz SR7013 will have the same auto room speakers & sub setup similar to the high end models in Denon?

The only quantifiable and meaningful difference based on the physical design, when external amplifiers are not used, between the SR7013, and the X4500H, is that the SR7013 will cost more. I'm not shy about spending money, but it's hard to see the justification in this case. A similar situation exists with the SR8012 and X6500H, except that the SR8012 adds a toroidal power transformer.

If you can get the Denon AVR-X6500H for about the same price as the X4500H that's great. You'll get better power amplifier circuits with one amplifier channel per circuit board, the same used in the SR8012 and X8500H, relays instead of bi-polar transistor muting circuits, external multi-channel inputs, and a better power supply for the opamps. That decision would be easy.

The SR7013 and X4500H units use mostly the same circuit boards. The SR7013 adds the HDAM buffers. A similar situation exists for the X6500H and SR8012. The SR7013 and SR8012 HDAM buffers lack the sophisticated power supply, higher rail voltages and power filtering of the HDAM buffers in the AV7704 and AV8805.

In an application such as this one, where only the internal amplifiers in a Marantz AVR are used, the HDAM buffer for each channel adds an electronic stage between the volume control (identical in each unit) and the input to a power amplifier stage (identical in each unit). The volume control is perfectly capable of driving a power amplifier channel input stage on its own, based on the impedances involved and the output capabilities of the volume control. The HDAM is purely an analog electronic circuit that ideally has a flat frequency response and a gain of 0dB. An HDAM circuit replaces a direct connection between the volume control and amplifier input stage. The HDAM doesn't do some AI or other magic to improve the signal.


To explore this subject a bit, here is some information from a review of the Denon AVR-X3500H from the Audioholics website. The goal is only to explore the output capabilities of the volume control, not discuss the overall review.

This review of the Denon AVR-X3600H is interesting in that is has a graph about 1/2-way down the page (admittedly provided by Denon) that shows the output of the volume control of the X3600H, which is the same control used in the X4500H, plotted against THD+N. The measurement is likely (not specified by Denon) taken in a way that the volume control is only connected to the preamp output, which is a special case. In most all cases the volume control drives the preamp output and the input to the power amplifiers channel, which means that an external location on a unit is not available to take this pure measurement.

The volume control is driving a 10K ohm input impedance in the test gear, which is a tougher load than driving the power amplifier. The HDAM circuit appears to present a similar impedance to the volume control output as the power amplifier input stage, so there seems to be no advantage from the HDAM stage in the area of load on the volume control. The performance shown in the chart is quite good. Noise (which would be specific to the X3500H) dominates the measurement to over a 2V output. The HDAM circuits can do nothing magical to improve this performance.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...non-avr-x3600h


Some facts, some opinions above. What did I miss or get wrong?
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