The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 175 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5221 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Lesmor,

I don't have any advice here. You did everything I would. Maybe do another Factory restore? I have read where several were needed to get the AVR to behave properly. Other than that. I would just turn off Update notifications. Just check here every now and then as new Firmware delivery is always announced and listed on the first few pages.

It would bother me too, that's why I would turn off Update Notifications and try to ignore it. Easier said than done.....
as a last resort I will do that
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post #5222 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be clear -- because DTS made this confusing -- there are two different scenarios where Neural:X is used.

1. Neural:X can be used as a "blind upmixer" on legacy channel based content (e.g. 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks). This works fine with the wides in a 9.1.2 layout and there's no practical difference between the X8500H and your X7200WA in this respect.

2. Neural:X can also be used as part of the DTS:X decoding to expand the channel-based portion of the DTS:X immersive signal. This is controlled by the "Neural:X" surround parameter when you are playing a DTS:X track. This is the part that changed, because at some point DTS decided that they would no longer allow the Neural:X parameter to operate to mix to the wides with a 7.1.4 DTS:X channel mix and a 9.1.2 layout.

Again, the only scenario we are discussing here is expansion / remapping of NATIVE DTS:X CONTENT.
Did they really decide that or did someone screw up when they adjusted the decoder for the 8500? AFAIK, the decoder still does wides in DTS:X on my 7010 and there have been no further updates for DTS. I have no luck getting DTS to respond to my emails in any kind of timely fashion. I doubt they'd admit they made a mistake either way.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #5223 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 01:11 PM
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Fairly straightforward questions....I think!?

Do the pre-outs always follow the channel/speaker terminal assignments in the custom amp mode or are the pre-outs fixed? I'd like to assign L&R Wide channels to the L&R main speaker terminals AND send the L&R Main pre-outs to an external amp (connected to the L&R Main speaks.) Is that allowable?

Can I assign the same signal to two sets of terminals? I'd like to have the SR & SL channels be assigned to those matching speaker terminals AND assign the SR & SL channels to the Height 3 terminals.

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Speakers: PSA MTM-210 LCR, BA VSi 593(4), BA VSi 560(4), BA e60(2), Seaton SubM F2+Slave
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post #5224 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jkscherk View Post
Fairly straightforward questions....I think!?

Do the pre-outs always follow the channel/speaker terminal assignments in the custom amp mode or are the pre-outs fixed? I'd like to assign L&R Wide channels to the L&R main speaker terminals AND send the L&R Main pre-outs to an external amp (connected to the L&R Main speaks.) Is that allowable?

Can I assign the same signal to two sets of terminals? I'd like to have the SR & SL channel be assigned to those matching speaker terminals AND assign the SR & SL channel to the Height 3 terminals.
If you review the table I have listed in post 2, although the pre-outs are fixed, you'll note that most all of the speaker posts are assignable.
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post #5225 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
If you review the table I have listed in post 2, although the pre-outs are fixed, you'll note that most all of the speaker posts are assignable.
I did review the table hence the question. I didn't see anywhere a reference to the pre-outs being fixed.

So based on your response, it appears I CAN do what I proposed in my question. (Although there is no reference to any channel only being assigned once. I'll dig into the manual for any such limitation.)

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post #5226 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jkscherk View Post
I did review the table hence the question. I didn't see anywhere a reference to the pre-outs being fixed.

So based on your response, it appears I CAN do what I proposed in my question. (Although there is no reference to any channel only being assigned once. I'll dig into the manual for any such limitation.)
The AMP ASSIGN setting refers to the settings of the speaker posts, not the pre-outs. You can assign a CH as many times as you want depending on your total speaker setup (eg. with 3 rows of seating and 3 sets of Surround L/R speakers).
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post #5227 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jkscherk View Post
I did review the table hence the question. I didn't see anywhere a reference to the pre-outs being fixed.

So based on your response, it appears I CAN do what I proposed in my question. (Although there is no reference to any channel only being assigned once. I'll dig into the manual for any such limitation.)

JD is correct as usual! Based on the hardware design the preouts are fixed.

Here is likely more than you wanted to know:

After the volume control their is a "Y" in signal line for each channel. From one leg of the Y the signal goes straight to a pre-out. In other words, it's hard "wired."

From the other leg of the Y the signal for each channel goes a set of switches. These switches allow almost complete flexibility in routing the signal (Center channel excepted) to the power amplifier inputs. It's really a nice, flexible design. The design is made practical because Denon/Marantz separated the volume control function from the switching function several years ago.
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post #5228 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 03:01 PM
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Good to know. I am using a bit of an array on the surround channel with one forward firing and one rear firing inwall for that channel on each side. That's why I needed the flexibility this unit provides. Hope it make its journey from Canada safely! :-)
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Control: Denon AVR-X3600H, Emotiva BasX A-300
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post #5229 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
JD is correct as usual! Based on the hardware design the preouts are fixed.

Here is likely more than you wanted to know:

After the volume control their is a "Y" in signal line for each channel. From one leg of the Y the signal goes straight to a pre-out. In other words, it's hard "wired."

From the other leg of the Y the signal for each channel goes a set of switches. These switches allow almost complete flexibility in routing the signal (Center channel excepted) to the power amplifier inputs. It's really a nice, flexible design. The design is made practical because Denon/Marantz separated the volume control function from the switching function several years ago.
One of the best engineering improvements they have ever made! Permits near “Custom Installer” level configuration flexibility. A boon for the Home Audio Nerds like us.
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post #5230 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by oniiz View Post
Anyone? Can any owner confirm that DSU's "Center Spread" parameter setting is still present & has not been omitted due to Dolby's revision of it's Dolby Surround Upmixer spec?
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Confirmed. This feature was only removed from the new Denon/Marantz models released in 2019.
I recently updated to the latest November update 7500-9031-1123-0025 & it seems that the "Center Spread" function has been removed as I remember it used to be present with 5.1 audio using DSU but is no longer under the Surround Parameter menu.
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post #5231 of 5259 Old 01-14-2020, 10:26 PM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be clear -- because DTS made this confusing -- there are two different scenarios where Neural:X is used.



1. Neural:X can be used as a "blind upmixer" on legacy channel based content (e.g. 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks). This works fine with the wides in a 9.1.2 layout and there's no practical difference between the X8500H and your X7200WA in this respect.



2. Neural:X can also be used as part of the DTS:X decoding to expand the channel-based portion of the DTS:X immersive signal. This is controlled by the "Neural:X" surround parameter when you are playing a DTS:X track. This is the part that changed, because at some point DTS decided that they would no longer allow the Neural:X parameter to operate to mix to the wides with a 7.1.4 DTS:X channel mix and a 9.1.2 layout.



Again, the only scenario we are discussing here is expansion / remapping of NATIVE DTS:X CONTENT.
I confirmed you are unfortunately correct.

Hmmmm. I do think they changed things since I last played with this. I don’t have any DTS-X movies, But I do have the CES 2017 DTS-X demo disk.

When the DTS-X track is engaged my surround options on the Denon x7500wa now all but disappear. I wouldn’t bet my life on it they were there before, but I thought I had more options?

Now I have only DTS-X, stereo, and built in dsp modes.

It says the wides are playing on the gui, but when I go up to the wides and stand close they are putting out NO sound on any of these DTS-X demo tracks in 9.1.2 mode.



And all my extra choices under DTS-X source are gone from the surround options.



When its a Dolby Atmos source by comparison I still have more choices.







If its regular DTS or Dolby Digital source then I get all the options and the front wides play in Neural X and in Audyssey DSX.



More options:



So I guess at this point there is no advantage of my x7200wa over the x8500h...

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post #5232 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by oniiz View Post
I recently updated to the latest November update 7500-9031-1123-0025 & it seems that the "Center Spread" function has been removed as I remember it used to be present with 5.1 audio using DSU but is no longer under the Surround Parameter menu.
As noted on p. 183 Owner's Manual, "Center Spread" only works when the source is stereo 2.0.
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post #5233 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 02:52 AM
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It says the wides are playing on the gui, but when I go up to the wides and stand close they are putting out NO sound on any of these DTS-X demo tracks in 9.1.2 mode.
I wonder if they could have reversed the setting flag somewhere for the wides in the code (i.e. Neural X with DTS:X mode in the surround preferences might turn it on when it says it's off and vice versa). It just seems odd that the front wides are lit and yet sit there doing thing. I'd try turning Neural X for DTS:X off just for the heck of it and see what it does (i.e. does the speaker light for wides turn off and then sound for them turns on?) It's a long shot, of course, but wouldn't be shocking to hear a logic switch got reversed somehow.

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post #5234 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I wonder if they could have reversed the setting flag somewhere for the wides in the code (i.e. Neural X with DTS:X mode in the surround preferences might turn it on when it says it's off and vice versa). It just seems odd that the front wides are lit and yet sit there doing thing. I'd try turning Neural X for DTS:X off just for the heck of it and see what it does (i.e. does the speaker light for wides turn off and then sound for them turns on?) It's a long shot, of course, but wouldn't be shocking to hear a logic switch got reversed somehow.

Changing the surround parameter setting doesn't make a difference unfortunately. I do wonder though why DTS:X tracks won't allow you to upmix whereas Atmos tracks will. Seems simiar to how Dolby tried ban cross upmixing though only for DTS:X and not 5.1 or 7.1.
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post #5235 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 05:08 AM
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Changing the surround parameter setting doesn't make a difference unfortunately. I do wonder though why DTS:X tracks won't allow you to upmix whereas Atmos tracks will. Seems simiar to how Dolby tried ban cross upmixing though only for DTS:X and not 5.1 or 7.1.
Yes, it seems kind of hypocritical. There is a way around it if your BD player (or if you use something like KODI) can do PCM 7.1 output instead (in KODI uncheck passthrough for a given movie and have it set to 7.1 in preferences), which you can then upmix with DSU or Auro-3D's upmixer.

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post #5236 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 05:40 AM
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Yes, it seems kind of hypocritical. There is a way around it if your BD player (or if you use something like KODI) can do PCM 7.1 output instead (in KODI uncheck passthrough for a given movie and have it set to 7.1 in preferences), which you can then upmix with DSU or Auro-3D's upmixer.

Decoding to PCM will unlock upmixing and also bring the front wides into action however it seems like the height metadata might get lost in the conversion.
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post #5237 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Yes, it seems kind of hypocritical. There is a way around it if your BD player (or if you use something like KODI) can do PCM 7.1 output instead (in KODI uncheck passthrough for a given movie and have it set to 7.1 in preferences), which you can then upmix with DSU or Auro-3D's upmixer.

Decoding to PCM will unlock upmixing and also bring the front wides into action however it seems like the height metadata might get lost in the conversion.
That happens with all Neural X upmixing and upmixing in general. Fortunately, Neural X is pretty good at separating the folded height channels back out again. It's probably better with X signals than Atmos (or at least as good) even since DTS knows just what to look for. Try the DTS:X demos out that way and see how they compare.

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post #5238 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 07:06 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I wonder if they could have reversed the setting flag somewhere for the wides in the code (i.e. Neural X with DTS:X mode in the surround preferences might turn it on when it says it's off and vice versa). It just seems odd that the front wides are lit and yet sit there doing thing. I'd try turning Neural X for DTS:X off just for the heck of it and see what it does (i.e. does the speaker light for wides turn off and then sound for them turns on?) It's a long shot, of course, but wouldn't be shocking to hear a logic switch got reversed somehow.

This is still confusing I agree. The second half of batpig’s bullet point one is correct. It’s not possible to use Neural X on DTS-X content. Apparently they removed that option at some point via firmware update. The first part of the bullet I think used to be true — you could previously. Now I can’t

Per the first and second picture above when DTS-X is the source I have no ability at all to engage Neural X on my x7200wa AVR, it’s not an option. So I can’t toggle it back and forth to test of Denon got it mistakenly switched in the coding, because it’s not there. All the sole options (when DTS-X is the source) are in the second photo.

Wides don’t do anything in any of those clips on the 2017 CES DTS-X demo disk (with DTS-X sound as the source) that I tried with my only viable option of DTS-X MSTR from the sound modes — despite the light being lit showing the wides should be active.

I can only use DTS Neural X on legacy codecs (5.1 and 7.1 from either Dolby or DTS) and the wides work there — or strangely I can select it on top of Dolby Atmos as shown in photo 4.

To be clear this is all on my x7200wa — in the x8500h thread so I probably shouldn’t post this here are at all to avoid confusion— but I think my understanding from Batpig is that now the two flagship AVRs have been updated to act the same?

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post #5239 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 09:40 AM
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post #5240 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I confirmed you are unfortunately correct.

Hmmmm. I do think they changed things since I last played with this. I don’t have any DTS-X movies, But I do have the CES 2017 DTS-X demo disk.

When the DTS-X track is engaged my surround options on the Denon x7500wa now all but disappear. I wouldn’t bet my life on it they were there before, but I thought I had more options?

Now I have only DTS-X, stereo, and built in dsp modes.

It says the wides are playing on the gui, but when I go up to the wides and stand close they are putting out NO sound on any of these DTS-X demo tracks in 9.1.2 mode.
To be clear, what we are discussing is NOT a surround mode. So all those screenshots that show you can't select Neural:X are not relevant

DTS:X is the surround mode. There is a SURROUND PARAMETER (found in the Audio menu in the Setup GUI) when playing DTS:X called "Neural:X On/Off" which is the internal upmixing I described above.

The Neural:X surround mode that your screenshots are relevant to is the blind upmixer for non-immersive content.

DTS has some weird bugs with the "active speakers" display graphic, it shows speakers as active that are dead silent :/

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post #5241 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 01:57 PM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be clear, what we are discussing is NOT a surround mode. So all those screenshots that show you can't select Neural:X are not relevant



DTS:X is the surround mode. There is a SURROUND PARAMETER (found in the Audio menu in the Setup GUI) when playing DTS:X called "Neural:X On/Off" which is the internal upmixing I described above.



The Neural:X surround mode that your screenshots are relevant to is the blind upmixer for non-immersive content.



DTS has some weird bugs with the "active speakers" display graphic, it shows speakers as active that are dead silent :/


I appreciate your knowledge and attention to detail, but don’t understand what you are saying. As shown In the screenprints I cannot change the sound mode (I called this surround mode previously) when the source from my UHD bluray player is DTS-X. The four buttons on the remote that change the sound mode, do not allow me any of the other typical options shown when a legacy codec or Dolby Atmos is played.

I.E.
No Dolby Surround
No DTS Neural X (I understand why from the conversation above on this one)
No Audyssey DSX Wide
Not even lesser DTS options than DTS X MSTR

The sound (surround) buttons/modes I’m talking about.
(Movie, Music, Game, Pure)


When DTS-X is the source I can only pick the sound mode options in the second picture.


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Last edited by Archaea; 01-15-2020 at 02:16 PM.
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post #5242 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I appreciate your knowledge and attention to detail, but don’t understand what you are saying. As shown In the screenprints I cannot change the sound mode (I called this surround mode previously) when the source from my UHD bluray player is DTS-X. The four buttons on the remote that change the sound mode, do not allow me any of the other options shown when a legacy codec is played.

I.E.
No Dolby Surround
No DTS Neural X
No Audyssey DSX Wide
Not even lesser DTS options

The buttons I’m talking about.
(Movie, Music, Game, Pure)

When DTS-X is the source I can only pick the sound mode options in the second picture.
He means, press SETUP on the Denon and then Audio and then Surround Parameters while something with DTS:X is running. It will offer Neural X with DTS:X or to turn it off and do pure 7.1.4 DTS:X only. It's not a surround "mode" but a surround OPTION for DTS:X itself.
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post #5243 of 5259 Old 01-15-2020, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I appreciate your knowledge and attention to detail, but don’t understand what you are saying. As shown In the screenprints I cannot change the sound mode (I called this surround mode previously) when the source from my UHD bluray player is DTS-X. The four buttons on the remote that change the sound mode, do not allow me any of the other typical options shown when a legacy codec or Dolby Atmos is played.
That is normal behavior. Unlike Atmos, where there is the option to decode as 7.1 Dolby TrueHD (i.e. ignoring the Atmos metadata extension), and therefore other upmixers can be appled to the 7.1 channel track... the DTS:X audio cannot be forced into "7.1 mode". The DTS decoder will recognize the DTS:X signal and then do its thing.

If you want to apply an upmixer, you would need to have your player decode the DTS to 7.1 PCM and then the sound mode options would be MULTICH IN, MULTICH + DOLBY SURROUND, MULTICH + NEURAL:X, etc.

The real point of my response was that it felt like you were referring to the DTS:X internal upmixing that I described above, and I wanted to make clear to you that this is NOT selected as a "surround mode", but rather it's an option/parameter that you have to enabled in the AUDIO > SURROUND PARAMETER menu.

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post #5244 of 5259 Old 01-16-2020, 05:01 AM
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Is there a way to listen to music, via multi channels, but let the center to take only voices? (stereo does not include center channel and multichannel stereo just play the same trough all, no?)
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post #5245 of 5259 Old 01-16-2020, 05:14 AM
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12v trigger

Sorry going off piste.
Can someone explain the 12v Trigger outs.

Ideally I want to be able to switch a relay on or off using the 12v trigger.

Can they be controlled from the remote?


thanks

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post #5246 of 5259 Old 01-16-2020, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vourt View Post
Is there a way to listen to music, via multi channels, but let the center to take only voices?
No, there's no way to isolate only the voices and route them to the Centre speaker. If you apply an upmixer (like Dolby Surround) to 2-channel music, it will extract sounds that are the same in the L/R channels and send them to the Centre speaker. Most music recordings have the vocals mixed the same in the L/R channels, so voices would end up in the Centre speaker. But so would everything else that is mixed the same (like instrument solos) in the L/R channels.

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post #5247 of 5259 Old 01-16-2020, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Sorry going off piste.
Can someone explain the 12v Trigger outs.

Ideally I want to be able to switch a relay on or off using the 12v trigger.

Can they be controlled from the remote?


thanks
You assign the triggers in the receiver menu to be on or off for a particular input, IE BluRay,CD,Cable/Sat etc. No Remote. Make sure to use a relay with no more than 0.25 Amperage,or it will shut down trigger voltage if overloaded, Keep in mind when sending any of those turn on inputs to zone 2 or 3, Will also engage the trigger/s

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post #5248 of 5259 Old 01-16-2020, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaeldef View Post
You assign the triggers in the receiver menu to be on or off for a particular input, IE BluRay,CD,Cable/Sat etc. No Remote. Make sure to use a relay with no more than 0.25 Amperage,or it will shut down trigger voltage if overloaded, Keep in mind when sending any of those turn on inputs to zone 2 or 3, Will also engage the trigger/s

Thank you. The info and manual are woefully inadeqaute on info.
I have a Denon Blu Ray player for audio and a sony 4K Blu Ray for movies.

The plan is use a relay to switch the Atmos TMR TML to Mono with Auro3d and looks like that can be done by assigning the Denon Blu Ray input to trigger. Am about to try a 4PDT High Current switch first, which should work, and then try a similar 12V relay. I don't think there s much current needed to switch.

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post #5249 of 5259 Old 01-17-2020, 04:53 PM
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Anyone got issue with the audyssey app using this receiver.
Audyssey app set the distance completely wrong for my FL speakers and sub the first time.
Second calibration SL distance wrong by 1 meter.

What to do

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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post #5250 of 5259 Old 01-18-2020, 04:50 AM
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DTS decoding and active speakers

7.1.4 configuration for Dolby Atmos with TF, TR

When I play a DTS-HD MA 5.1 signal, typically from Bluray Music discs, I get the surround options from Music remote button:

- Stereo
- DTS-HD MSTR
- DTS-HD MSTR + Dolby Surround
- … etc.

When in “DTS-HD MSTR” it is supposed that the only active speakers would be the 5.1, as in the original signal. But the OSD (Info remote button) shows active ALL speakers, as if some upmixer was engaged. Actually, I hear clearly the SB speakers, but no sound coming from the Tops. It works like an upmix to only 7.1. Or perhaps just a copy of the Surround to Surround Back, as I hear exactly the same from both.

Then if I change to “DTS-HD MSTR + Dolby Surround” it works as expected. OSD keep showing all speakers active and now I hear sound from the Top speakers, as the DSU upmixer gives the full 7.1.4

If I want to just hear a 5.1 sound, as in the original mix, I have to change to the LPCM track in the source, and then yes, I get “Multi Ch In” sound with just 5.1 active speakers on the OSD and in the reality.

Is it a bug or an intended behaviour of the DTS decoder and surround modes on the 8500?

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