The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
I presume that your "optimal" layout also applies to middle height speakers in lieu of RH? That location is optimized for Auro and would be prefered by me as I plan to use Auromatic as my preferred upmixer.
I assume that by "middle height" you mean surround height (SH), as that is the Auro recommended position. However, Dolby does not recognize SH and thus it would not be used for Atmos or DSU.

If instead you meant top middle (TM), that is not an Auro location and would only be used for Atmos/DSU and DTS:X/Neural:X.

Thus, in order to maximum the utility of a single height configuration for all three immersive audio codecs, the solution is to designate the forward and rearward pair as FH and RH respectively.
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post #92 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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What Jeff said ^^^^^

In order to ensure cross-compatibility between Atmos/DTS:X and Auro3D you'd need to use a Front Height + Rear Height designation (regardless of where the front/rear overheads are physically located).

So Atmos would output as 9.1.4, DSU or DTS:X/Neural:X would output as 7.1.4 (all of the preceding with FH+RH as the height outputs and CH/VOG silent) and then Auro3D would be 13.1 (7.1 + FH/CH/RH + VOG).
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post #93 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timc1475 View Post

So I am curious if the 7.1.6 with 8 total heights shown in the below optimal config for 15ch processing & 13 amped (= the best overall config IMO) with the HC & TS in Auromatic... if one chooses to test the HC as a 2nd center channel for more robust dialog as the sound from the DSU for the HC may be minimum. Good or bad or not possible, your thoughts?
Not sure what you mean here? HC is ONLY active in Auro.

(And DTS:X as long as you stay under the 11.1 limit).

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post #94 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Not sure what you mean here? HC is ONLY active in Auro.

(And DTS:X as long as you stay under the 11.1 limit).
I was thinking if it was assigned as a 2nd center channel instead of CH it would be active like the 1st center channel if one wanted that option for mre dialog since it is amp assignable. Prolly a brain fart, just thinking out loud. Curious how much sound the 13.1 Auromatic will impart to the CH & VOG.

I just got off the phone with D & M support. The tech said Auro 3D would already be installed into the 8500H b4 I get it. If I remember I read a few posts either it would not be or the full 13.1 ability would come later I can't recollect.



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post #95 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 12:29 PM
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post #96 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
What Jeff said ^^^^^

In order to ensure cross-compatibility between Atmos/DTS:X and Auro3D you'd need to use a Front Height + Rear Height designation (regardless of where the front/rear overheads are physically located).

So Atmos would output as 9.1.4, DSU or DTS:X/Neural:X would output as 7.1.4 (all of the preceding with FH+RH as the height outputs and CH/VOG silent) and then Auro3D would be 13.1 (7.1 + FH/CH/RH + VOG).
Quote:
Originally Posted by timc1475 View Post
I just got off the phone with D & M support. The tech said Auro 3D would already be installed into the 8500H b4 I get it. If I remember I read a few posts either it would not be or the full 13.1 ability would come later I can't recollect.
Auro-3D/Auro-Matic processing should definitely be enabled in the X8500H right out of the box but I believe it's limited to 10.1 pending a FW update to the full 13.1.

Batpig, have you had the chance to confirm this?

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post #97 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Auro is NOT supported out of the box yet. Auromatic is not offered as an upmixing option and the Auro specific speaker positions (CH, SH, TS) don?t look to be available.
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post #98 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I assume that by "middle height" you mean surround height (SH), as that is the Auro recommended position. However, Dolby does not recognize SH and thus it would not be used for Atmos or DSU.

If instead you meant top middle (TM), that is not an Auro location and would only be used for Atmos/DSU and DTS:X/Neural:X.

Thus, in order to maximum the utility of a single height configuration for all three immersive audio codecs, the solution is to designate the forward and rearward pair as FH and RH respectively.
Yes, I did mean SH. Thanks for that. Oh Futz. Need to redo my Denon speaker setup (and Audyssey) to FH and RH. Forgot that one cannot set an adjacent pair to the same "T" or "H". Physical location is SH but since I told the 4400 that I had FH and SH, I won't have all 4 overheads in Atmos/DSU. Just did my initial setup with the interim 4400 to give Auro a run, in prep for the 8500 when 13.1 is implemented,but clearly got ahead of myself.

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post #99 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Auro is NOT supported out of the box yet. Auromatic is not offered as an upmixing option and the Auro specific speaker positions (CH, SH, TS) don?t look to be available.
Makes sense of Auro is not installed.

Did you test if DTS:X 5.1.6 is possible ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Need to redo my Denon speaker setup (and Audyssey) to FH and RH. Forgot that one cannot set an adjacent pair to the same "T" or "H".
Actually the 8500 can do that : Top Front+Top Middle+Top Rear.
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post #100 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Did you test if DTS:X 5.1.6 is possible?
Nope, haven't had a chance to test that yet.

What I did do last night is disable the back surrounds so my config was 5.1 + FW + 4 overheads, and watched some 5.1 content with Neural:X engaged to feed the wides / overheads. This is obviously not unique to the 8500, but I've never had wides before and wanted to see how it sounded when they are fed a steady stream of content (which Neural:X seems to do).

In my limited testing so far, native Atmos mixes use the FW speakers mostly for occasional "zoom through" object panning. I haven't yet found a mix that has really extensive content in the wides (e.g. pulling the musical score out there) but in those moments when it does happen it clearly stabilizes the pan as it sweeps to either side. However, not sure if it would be worth the upgrade for that alone as it feels like 95% of the time the wides aren't being used and 7.1.4 would sound the same as 9.1.4.

At least with Neural:X upmixing the wides are cranking nearly constantly, and the effect is clearly audible vs. just hearing a 5.1 base layer w/o wides. So it's reinforcing how huge it would be if somehow they could figure out an upmixing solution for full 9.1.4 13ch output
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post #101 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 03:53 PM
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^^^ Agreed. Maybe the multiple AVR solution isn’t ready to be retired yet

I plan on keeping my 7200 in the loop, powering the fronts, wides and side surrounds in a 9.1.2 setup, while using the 8500 for the rest in a 7.1.6 setup for a total correct 9.1.6.

Could you post pics of the amp assign screen, as i understand it is different regarding height setup?

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post #102 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Auro is NOT supported out of the box yet. Auromatic is not offered as an upmixing option and the Auro specific speaker positions (CH, SH, TS) don?t look to be available.
Bummer.

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post #103 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 05:11 PM
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Damn, Id love to be able to have a dedicated theater with a 7.2.6 setup.

For now, Ill sit back and admire from affar, with my mediocre 7.1.2 setup... Damn fellas, post some pics of this beauty when they arrive...

So far only batpig has pics...

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post #104 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 05:15 PM
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Question for any that have this box in the wild. I don't trust my ability to honestly understand the manual !! And it could have an oopsie

Curious about what (if any) cross codec upmixing is allowed?

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post #105 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post
Question for any that have this box in the wild. I don't trust my ability to honestly understand the manual !! And it could have an oopsie

Curious about what (if any) cross codec upmixing is allowed?
Should be no different than any other 2016 or 2017 model (ie. DD + Neural:X and DTS + Dolby Surround) (pp. 156 - 158 Owner's manual).

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post #106 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Nope, haven't had a chance to test that yet.

What I did do last night is disable the back surrounds so my config was 5.1 + FW + 4 overheads, and watched some 5.1 content with Neural:X engaged to feed the wides / overheads. This is obviously not unique to the 8500, but I've never had wides before and wanted to see how it sounded when they are fed a steady stream of content (which Neural:X seems to do).

In my limited testing so far, native Atmos mixes use the FW speakers mostly for occasional "zoom through" object panning. I haven't yet found a mix that has really extensive content in the wides (e.g. pulling the musical score out there) but in those moments when it does happen it clearly stabilizes the pan as it sweeps to either side. However, not sure if it would be worth the upgrade for that alone as it feels like 95% of the time the wides aren't being used and 7.1.4 would sound the same as 9.1.4.

At least with Neural:X upmixing the wides are cranking nearly constantly, and the effect is clearly audible vs. just hearing a 5.1 base layer w/o wides. So it's reinforcing how huge it would be if somehow they could figure out an upmixing solution for full 9.1.4 13ch output
That's what I'm hoping for. I have a wide screen wall / theater, and have been using wides and heights ( 11.2 channels ) first with my 4520, and currently with my X7200WA. I love the DTX Neural : X upmix. I might just wait a bit and see if a DTX upmix solution comes at some point, like we got with the X7200. Considering going from 11 channels to 13 channels is going to cost me well in excess of $1000.00 a channel for those 2 extra channels ( by the time it's all said and done ), they need to throw us a bone.
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post #107 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^^ Agreed. Maybe the multiple AVR solution isn’t ready to be retired yet

I plan on keeping my 7200 in the loop, powering the fronts, wides and side surrounds in a 9.1.2 setup, while using the 8500 for the rest in a 7.1.6 setup for a total correct 9.1.6.

Could you post pics of the amp assign screen, as i understand it is different regarding height setup?

Likewise, unfortunately keeping 2 avrs in play, that I plan to use the 8500 for 7.1.4, and keep the 6200 to run just the back surrounds , at least I hope it works that way.
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post #108 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Auro is NOT supported out of the box yet. Auromatic is not offered as an upmixing option and the Auro specific speaker positions (CH, SH, TS) don?t look to be available.
Errata: I actually checked this and my assumption was wrong. Auro positions are available. Just no Auro processing.
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post #109 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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So I did a quick test and reconfigured my speaker layout as ?5.1.8? which is fixed at FH+TM+RH+CH+TS.

Played some 5.1 material and confirmed that both DSU and N:X output as 5.1.6 using the three pairs of overheads.

Then tried disabling the TM speakers and N:X output 5.1.6 but includes the Auro positions (CH+TH) in addition to FH+RH.
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post #110 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
So I did a quick test and reconfigured my speaker layout as ?5.1.8? which is fixed at FH+TM+RH+CH+TS.

Played some 5.1 material and confirmed that both DSU and N:X output as 5.1.6 using the three pairs of overheads.

Then tried disabling the TM speakers and N:X output 5.1.6 but includes the Auro positions (CH+TH) in addition to FH+RH.
What was your impression of the Neural:X soundscape in this configuration compared to the 5.1+FW+4 overhead setup you ran last night?

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post #111 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 07:32 PM
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So how is the DSU with 13 speakers ?
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post #112 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Should be no different than any other 2016 or 2017 model (ie. DD + Neural:X and DTS + Dolby Surround).

I'm dealing with information overload, so I bought a HEOS 7, and I have been configuring it. Very nice: I took it to the patio for a test, and it will be a major attraction for super bowl along with the smoked salmon, ribs, wings and sausages. Alexa - play Samantha Fish Poor Black Mattie on theater. Also my wife likes the HEOS: HOME RUN!

Since I am using a Denon 5200 with no DTS-X, the 8500 will be an upgrade for me. I am also looking for 7.2.6. I get that right? I'll hook up the wides and take what I can get. Auromatic - it sounds like something to play with and I like to play, but maybe I can do without it.

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post #113 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
So I did a quick test and reconfigured my speaker layout as ?5.1.8? which is fixed at FH+TM+RH+CH+TS.

Played some 5.1 material and confirmed that both DSU and N:X output as 5.1.6 using the three pairs of overheads.

Then tried disabling the TM speakers and N:X output 5.1.6 but includes the Auro positions (CH+TH) in addition to FH+RH.
What was your impression of the Neural:X soundscape in this configuration compared to the 5.1+FW+4 overhead setup you ran last night?
Sorry no impressions. Didn?t rewire speakers or anything just played with the amp assign and tested function.

Personally though I can?t see a blanket of 6 overhead speakers being better than having 7 lower level speakers.
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post #114 of 4611 Old 01-29-2018, 11:44 PM
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Nope, haven't had a chance to test that yet.

What I did do last night is disable the back surrounds so my config was 5.1 + FW + 4 overheads, and watched some 5.1 content with Neural:X engaged to feed the wides / overheads. This is obviously not unique to the 8500, but I've never had wides before and wanted to see how it sounded when they are fed a steady stream of content (which Neural:X seems to do).

In my limited testing so far, native Atmos mixes use the FW speakers mostly for occasional "zoom through" object panning. I haven't yet found a mix that has really extensive content in the wides (e.g. pulling the musical score out there) but in those moments when it does happen it clearly stabilizes the pan as it sweeps to either side. However, not sure if it would be worth the upgrade for that alone as it feels like 95% of the time the wides aren't being used and 7.1.4 would sound the same as 9.1.4.

At least with Neural:X upmixing the wides are cranking nearly constantly, and the effect is clearly audible vs. just hearing a 5.1 base layer w/o wides. So it's reinforcing how huge it would be if somehow they could figure out an upmixing solution for full 9.1.4 13ch output
This (5.1 +FW + 4 OH) is how I've been using Neural:X for 5.1 non immersive mixes and it works great, as reported many times. Especially Christopher Nolan's movies (just don't tell him).

If you want to test an Atmos track that uses the wides, try the UHD Bluray of Westworld.

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post #115 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 04:39 AM
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So I did a quick test and reconfigured my speaker layout as ?5.1.8? which is fixed at FH+TM+RH+CH+TS.

Played some 5.1 material and confirmed that both DSU and N:X output as 5.1.6 using the three pairs of overheads.

Then tried disabling the TM speakers and N:X output 5.1.6 but includes the Auro positions (CH+TH) in addition to FH+RH.
Great, thanks for confirming.

Now could you possible do some test tones?

The Atmos 9.1.6 would be cool to test,
And the DTS:X 7.1.4 with 6 heights, how will it behave(not to mention with the «Auro» 6 heights).

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post #116 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 04:47 AM
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I'm dealing with information overload, so I bought a HEOS 7, and I have been configuring it. Very nice: I took it to the patio for a test, and it will be a major attraction for super bowl along with the smoked salmon, ribs, wings and sausages. Alexa - play Samantha Fish Poor Black Mattie on theater. Also my wife likes the HEOS: HOME RUN!

Since I am using a Denon 5200 with no DTS-X, the 8500 will be an upgrade for me. I am also looking for 7.2.6. I get that right? I'll hook up the wides and take what I can get. Auromatic - it sounds like something to play with and I like to play, but maybe I can do without it.
Yes, the X8500H being a 13CH model is capable of 7.2.6 with limitations when using Front Wide speakers as discussed previously in this thread. Also, as a reminder, the Auro 3D/AuroMatic firmware is not likely to be released until later this spring (May?) so will not be on board the AVR on initial purchase prior to that time, but rather will be a FREE firmware update. Those owners that have been using AuroMatic for the past 3 years generally prefer using it to simulate 2CH music to the height speakers vs. using DSU or Neural:X.
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post #117 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 05:26 AM
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Sorry no impressions. Didn?t rewire speakers or anything just played with the amp assign and tested function.

Personally though I can?t see a blanket of 6 overhead speakers being better than having 7 lower level speakers.

This certainly opens up a more possibilities for those of use willing to use a second DTS X/Atmos avr to drive the speakers, especially if that 2nd AVR is another 8500...still far cheaper than a Trinnov/Datasat!
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post #118 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 05:54 AM
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stacked Denon X8500H AVR array

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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
This certainly opens up a more possibilities for those of use willing to use a second DTS X/Atmos avr to drive the speakers, especially if that 2nd AVR is another 8500...still far cheaper than a Trinnov/Datasat!
That's interesting.
A stacked Denon X8500H AVR array.

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post #119 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 08:11 AM
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Personally though I can?t see a blanket of 6 overhead speakers being better than having 7 lower level speakers.
Not sure if it is exactly apples to apples so to speak...

But I have read some professional reviews that stated that they preferred the sound of a 5.1.4 setup to a 7.1.2 setup.

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post #120 of 4611 Old 01-30-2018, 08:17 AM
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Not sure if it is exactly apples to apples so to speak...

But I have read some professional reviews that stated that they preferred the sound of a 5.1.4 setup to a 7.1.2 setup.
Yes indeed ... 4 is much better than 2 as it adds front --> back and back --> front movement while adding a set of Top Middle speakers (ie. 6 heights) will not likely make as much of a difference.
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