The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread - Page 99 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2941 of 4446 Old 11-11-2018, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
After two months and a half I finally installed my top rear speakers to go along with my top middle. I was shocked to discover that the 8500 doesn’t support a 5.1.4 configuration with Top middle and top rear. I have to tell it that it is too front and top rear. Given the price of the 8500 I’m shocked it doesn’t support this official Dolby speaker layout. Please tell me the 8500 treats Top Front as as Top Middle in a 5.1.4 config.


I don’t see TM + TR in the July-2017 install guide , where is it??
These are the 4 in 5.1.4 configurations I see:

TF + TR


DEF + DER


TF + DER


DEF + TR



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post #2942 of 4446 Old 11-11-2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
After two months and a half I finally installed my top rear speakers to go along with my top middle. I was shocked to discover that the 8500 doesn’t support a 5.1.4 configuration with Top middle and top rear. I have to tell it that it is too front and top rear. Given the price of the 8500 I’m shocked it doesn’t support this official Dolby speaker layout. Please tell me the 8500 treats Top Front as as Top Middle in a 5.1.4 config.
FH - TF - TM - TR - RH

IIRC, it was either Dolby or D+M that stated the following...but...selecting any two adjacent speakers is an invalid configuration

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post #2943 of 4446 Old 11-11-2018, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Stro3579 View Post
guess I have to eventually get a amp then. It drives me bonkers having to turn volume up to 65-70ish.
Why, mine does the same, 50 is almost a whisper, 75 is more then enough over here.
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post #2944 of 4446 Old 11-11-2018, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
After two months and a half I finally installed my top rear speakers to go along with my top middle. I was shocked to discover that the 8500 doesn’t support a 5.1.4 configuration with Top middle and top rear. I have to tell it that it is too front and top rear. Given the price of the 8500 I’m shocked it doesn’t support this official Dolby speaker layout. Please tell me the 8500 treats Top Front as as Top Middle in a 5.1.4 config.
Indeed a stupid way of not letting the user decid what to speaker setup to use.
I had a discusion with Auro in the past of using a mix of DE speakers and Direct fire for Height, they told me that was not preferd in a Auro setup so it was not possible
I do not care if it's preferd in what ever setup, i think if the user wants it, it must be possible if you have the amps.

I use my Surround Back speakers near the ceiling as i do not have space on ear level, works for me and would be very strange if the receiver would say during setup that SB speakers in that spot are not supported.
I have just 2 Height speakers in the Top Middle spot, and also i can not say i have only 2 TM speakers.
So i run them as FH, i my case absolute no problem but still a strange way of pushing users into specific setups.
I do not care what Dolby, DTS or Auro wants as a speaker setup, i want to decid myself please !
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post #2945 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
I have to admit to using a slide rule for more than a few years!


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post #2946 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Suggest you use the dB volume option.

I have mine set at the dB volume option and default on is -35db, then I turn it up from there. I’ve also got max volume limited to 0db, there’s no need to go over that at all in a properly setup system for normal usage, heck even demos .


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Setting the MAX VOLUME is a smart thing to do especially when there can be other fingers on the AVR's remote when you're not around. I start mine at -40dB which is sufficient for any early morning viewing when the wife is still asleep.
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post #2947 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
I don’t see TM + TR in the July-2017 install guide , where is it??
These are the 4 in 5.1.4 configurations I see:

TF + TR


DEF + DER


TF + DER


DEF + TR



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It must be a labeling thing because if you go to the Dolby 5.1.4 overhead setup guide you will see the position is clearly the same as top middle but the I know see the labeling is top front. A little confusing.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf

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post #2948 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 05:22 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
It must be a labeling thing because if you go to the Dolby 5.1.4 overhead setup guide you will see the position is clearly the same as top middle but the I know see the labeling is top front. A little confusing.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf


Honestly it’s not in middle, rather front and rear, from pdf link you provided
They are showing a typical example of single row and small room usage for Atmos, no need 7 bed channels ...


And side view also


Q; if you using 5.1.4 why the 8500H?
It’s overkill for that.

A 4400H would totally suffice, I’ve got a 4300H in my family room at 5.1.2 soon 5.1.4

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post #2949 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Suggest you use the dB volume option.

I have mine set at the dB volume option and default on is -35db, then I turn it up from there. I’ve also got max volume limited to 0db, there’s no need to go over that at all in a properly setup system for normal usage, heck even demos .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both volume scale alternatives are calibrated in dB's.

dB is correct, the "B" is for Alexander Graham Bell: another example; the unit for current is A, ampere, for Andre-Marie Ampere

db has no meaning in this context
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post #2950 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSEK View Post
After two months and a half I finally installed my top rear speakers to go along with my top middle. I was shocked to discover that the 8500 doesn’t support a 5.1.4 configuration with Top middle and top rear. I have to tell it that it is too front and top rear. Given the price of the 8500 I’m shocked it doesn’t support this official Dolby speaker layout. Please tell me the 8500 treats Top Front as as Top Middle in a 5.1.4 config.

Evidently you're serious with the post, but I've rarely (actually never that I remember) heard them without an implied reference, and multiple levels of meaning. Those words trigger me to other Claude Rains lines, such as "Round up the usual suspects."

Next is a quick search of lines from Casablanca, and then perhaps yet another viewing of Casablanca.

The power of words is amazing.
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post #2951 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 07:46 AM
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I'm moving to a new place, and it's rather small: 4m wide, 2.93m long
If I go by the Atmos ceiling speaker guides, I can place the front height and the rear height speakers on the front and rear wall respectively, but will that be effected?
The front will be about 40 degrees and the rear about 30-32 degrees.

Logistically it's easier to mount on the walls than the false ceiling..

Thanks
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post #2952 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I'm moving to a new place, and it's rather small: 4m wide, 2.93m long
If I go by the Atmos ceiling speaker guides, I can place the front height and the rear height speakers on the front and rear wall respectively, but will that be effected?
The front will be about 40 degrees and the rear about 30-32 degrees.

Logistically it's easier to mount on the walls than the false ceiling..

Thanks
Yes, those Front and Rear Height positions will be fine.

The front-to-back soundstage will be somewhat expanded when compared to what you'd hear if you mounted the speakers on the ceiling, but it'll still produce an enjoyable experience.
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post #2953 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Honestly it’s not in middle, rather front and rear, from pdf link you provided
They are showing a typical example of single row and small room usage for Atmos, no need 7 bed channels ...


And side view also


Q; if you using 5.1.4 why the 8500H?
It’s overkill for that.

A 4400H would totally suffice, I’ve got a 4300H in my family room at 5.1.2 soon 5.1.4

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I went with the 8500 for a few reasons, amongst them are more power (it is actually underpowered for my SVS Ultra Towers), the option to go 5.1.6 (since my dedicated theater is pre-wired for 5.1.6+ Voice of God), and I wanted to see how this compares to my Anthem D2 and A5 downstairs.

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post #2954 of 4446 Old 11-12-2018, 09:53 AM
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The *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2ch Flagship AVR Thread

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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Both volume scale alternatives are calibrated in dB's.



dB is correct, the "B" is for Alexander Graham Bell: another example; the unit for current is A, ampere, for Andre-Marie Ampere



db has no meaning in this context


I, Michael Rosinski, being a HT hobbyist with overall good intentions, do herby define the abbreviation db = dB when I’m using it in acoustical contexts on AVS forum

Acoustics
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustics
db = dB = decibel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

Fat fingering be Dammed!

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post #2955 of 4446 Old 11-13-2018, 08:33 PM
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guess I have to eventually get a amp then. It drives me bonkers having to turn volume up to 65-70ish.
I've had a few movies where I've turned it up to 80 - much to the absolute delight of my " we love it loud " movie watching friends. When the wife's watching - 70ish max.

Parts of Sicario 2 just sounded awesome !!
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post #2956 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 01:14 AM
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There are a lot of Font Wide users here, but isn't FW in the upmixed content just a copy of the front speaker signal ?
Is FW in Atmos/DTSX a signal complete separated from the Fronts ?
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post #2957 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 05:21 AM
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There are a lot of Font Wide users here, but isn't FW in the upmixed content just a copy of the front speaker signal ?
That'd depend on the algorithm used by the upmixer.
The Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't use Front Wides at all. They stay silent.
Quote:
Is FW in Atmos/DTSX a signal complete separated from the Fronts ?
[/quote]
The Front Wide speakers are used when Atmos sound objects have xyz coordinates which are in the vicinity of the nominal FW speaker locations. (E.g. sounds closer to the front would be "phantom imaged" between the FW and Fronts, while sounds closer to the sides would be phantom imaged between FW and Surrounds.) FW is not implemented as a separate channel as are the Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Rear Surrounds.

In contrast, the consumer DTS:X soundtracks contain 7.1.4 discrete channels which do not include Font Wides. As a result, the DTS:X decoding algorithm, in combination with DTS Neural:X, uses matrix decoding to make use of Front Wide speakers if you have them.

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post #2958 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 07:41 AM
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I like using front wide speakers. They do add to the 3 dimensional sound field in my room when they are active. But, I have a wide theater.
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post #2959 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 07:44 AM
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In contrast, the consumer DTS:X soundtracks contain 7.1.4 discrete channels which do not include Font Wides. As a result, the DTS:X decoding algorithm, in combination with DTS Neural:X, uses matrix decoding to make use of Front Wide speakers if you have them.
At the cost of forcing you to give up two other channels so as not to exceed the 11-channel limit for DTS:X.

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post #2960 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 08:00 AM
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How does the multiroom work on this avr? My main room has 7.1.4 and I would like to add some ceiling speakers in another room. Do I just connect the speaker to a open channel? (I think the only open source is wide speakers) if so how would I play just that room without effecting the main room?
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post #2961 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 08:06 AM
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At the cost of forcing you to give up two other channels so as not to exceed the 11-channel limit for DTS:X.
Yes, that's why I only enable the wides (by disabling the SBs) with Neural:X on 5.1 tracks. I'd rather have FWs than SBs in that case as my room is wide and my SRs are at 110 degrees.

If there is 7.1 in the track, I certainly want to keep the native channels rather than losing real SBs for fake FWs, and I wouldn't want to lose a pair of heights for FWs, so I just stick to 7.1.4.

But with 5.1 tracks, it's great to have FWs, at least in my room.

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post #2962 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
That'd depend on the algorithm used by the upmixer.
The Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't use Front Wides at all. They stay silent.

The Front Wide speakers are used when Atmos sound objects have xyz coordinates which are in the vicinity of the nominal FW speaker locations. (E.g. sounds closer to the front would be "phantom imaged" between the FW and Fronts, while sounds closer to the sides would be phantom imaged between FW and Surrounds.) FW is not implemented as a separate channel as are the Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Rear Surrounds.

In contrast, the consumer DTS:X soundtracks contain 7.1.4 discrete channels which do not include Font Wides. As a result, the DTS:X decoding algorithm, in combination with DTS Neural:X, uses matrix decoding to make use of Front Wide speakers if you have them.

Would just connecting the FW to the Front speakers give the same result and "saves" me 2 channels for other use ?
My FW are close the the Fronts and I set them at the same volume level as the fronts, Audyssey sets them around 2 dB lower.

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post #2963 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
That'd depend on the algorithm used by the upmixer.
The Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't use Front Wides at all. They stay silent.
The Front Wide speakers are used when Atmos sound objects have xyz coordinates which are in the vicinity of the nominal FW speaker locations. (E.g. sounds closer to the front would be "phantom imaged" between the FW and Fronts, while sounds closer to the sides would be phantom imaged between FW and Surrounds.) FW is not implemented as a separate channel as are the Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Rear Surrounds.

In contrast, the consumer DTS:X soundtracks contain 7.1.4 discrete channels which do not include Font Wides. As a result, the DTS:X decoding algorithm, in combination with DTS Neural:X, uses matrix decoding to make use of Front Wide speakers if you have them.

Would just connecting the FW to the Front speakers give the same result and "saves" me 2 channels for other use ?[/QUOTE]

Nope. FW positions are sporadic in an Atmos track. You would lose most of the front bed channel information.

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post #2964 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 09:54 AM
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Would just connecting the FW to the Front speakers give the same result and "saves" me 2 channels for other use ?
Nope. FW positions are sporadic in an Atmos track. You would lose most of the front bed channel information.[/QUOTE]


Sorry, what means "sporadic in a Atmos track" ?
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post #2965 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Would just connecting the FW to the Front speakers give the same result and "saves" me 2 channels for other use ?
Nope. FW positions are sporadic in an Atmos track. You would lose most of the front bed channel information.

Sorry, what means "sporadic in a Atmos track" ?[/QUOTE]

Not used very frequently or not all the time.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #2966 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Sorry, what means "sporadic in a Atmos track"

Not used very frequently or not all the time.

Ok clear :-)
But why when I connect the FW to the F will I lose most of the front bed channel
information ?
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post #2967 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Sorry, what means "sporadic in a Atmos track"

Not used very frequently or not all the time.

Ok clear 🙂
But why when I connect the FW to the F will I lose most of the front bed channel
information ?
Because you are only hearing the FW signal when an object is locked to that position or pans through it. With DTS: X it's only the matrixed signal part way between the fronts and side surround channel audio.

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post #2968 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Evidently you're serious with the post, but I've rarely (actually never that I remember) heard them without an implied reference, and multiple levels of meaning. Those words trigger me to other Claude Rains lines, such as "Round up the usual suspects."

Next is a quick search of lines from Casablanca, and then perhaps yet another viewing of Casablanca.

The power of words is amazing.
And videos too! I don't know how many hours I lose when I sit down to watch a YouTube video for a legitimate learning reason and the next thing I know 4-5 hours have gone by...

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post #2969 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Because you are only hearing the FW signal when an object is locked to that position or pans through it. With DTS: X it's only the matrixed signal part way between the fronts and side surround channel audio.
But I connect the FW L/R to the Front L/R (parallel), then there is no FW any more.
The FW will receive the same signal as the Front speakers, as there is no FW...…
My FW speakers are just 20-30 cm aside to the Fronts on the same front wall (Kef T101 and Kef T301), making the "stage" just a bit wider, see pic.
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post #2970 of 4446 Old 11-14-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
But I connect the FW L/R to the Front L/R (parallel), then there is no FW any more.
The FW will receive the same signal as the Front speakers, as there is no FW...…
My FW speakers are just 20-30 cm aside to the Fronts on the same front wall (Kef T101 and Kef T301), making the "stage" just a bit wider, see pic.
I don't get it. Why would you even want to connect FW to your front speakers in parallel? If you don't use Front Wide at all then that information is routed for your front speakers anyway (especially snap to) or with DTS divided between front and side surrounds. I see little point in using front wides that close to the mains either way, personally.

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