Does anyone make an AVR/Processor that stays somewhat cool? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 50 Old 03-12-2018, 03:54 PM
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Ouch. I'm not even working as an engineer any longer and I see maybe half a dozen misconceptions or conflations promulgated on this thread that could use some clarification. I will share what info I have, and apologies in advance if I too am promulgating any misconceptions or conflations. I never designed AV equipment, just for full disclosure.

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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
Pioneer elite avr's are using class D amps now which run quite cool
The efficiency of a switcher approaches double that of some commonly used linear power amps and is theoretically the highest efficiency available that I am aware of. I am glad this market shift is finally possible now that audiophoolery regarding tubes and linear amps is dying out under the pressure of Atmos etc. object-oriented surround where consumers want more and more amplifier channels crammed into a single device at the lowest possible cost.

The first few attempts at affordable full spectrum switching amps introduced stability, reliability, and audibility issues that made the entire industry gun-shy for at least a decade. Pioneer sold stereo receivers with switchers in budget equipment years ago that worked fine and I've used one of them that was still working fine even after someone's coffee wiped out the tuner. All plate amps in powered speakers that I know of use switchers.

A dog might not appreciate the switcher whining away in the background but if you scritch behind his ears that will mask the whine. I doubt any human will hear any issues under any conditions with modern switchers, particularly with the prevalence of hearing damage today where the US navy is using frequency shifting so that recruits who have already damaged their ears as kids with earpods can still do sonar.

My supposition is that advanced computer simulation has made predictable and reliable switcher designs far easier to accomplish. I don't know if switchers apply to higher powered amps in general but I do know there is at least one high powered design out there that people have raved about for years. As with all higher powered audio addicts (let's raise our hands everyone) I suspect these enthusiasts may have damaged their hearing to the point they wouldn't know the difference anyway even if switching noise was a factor for someone else.

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Originally Posted by noears View Post
What's the big deal if the amp runs hot?
No one called attention specifically to the actual concern! SMH and .

It's the electrolytic capacitors. The electrolyte chemically degrades under prolonged elevated temperatures. Electrolyte was also behind the 'capacitor plague' where a stolen, incomplete formula was used by multiple manufacturers. The part of the formula that was missing was the part that stabilizes the electrolyte.

Commercial spec capacitors are rated for 1000 hours of operation within rated tolerance at 85C (translates to... um... roughly six weeks) whereas commercial spec integrated circuits will run basically indefinitely at that junction (not case) temperature. Capacitors don't dissipate appreciable power internally, and they don't usually experience anything like that temperature, but they still get baked to death eventually inside a hot chassis, particularly if the PCB they are mounted to is doing double duty as the primary heat sink for the integrated circuits on it.

This is the problem with Onkyo receivers IMO. Their backplane is so hot that the commercial spec local regulator filter capacitors degrade drastically with normal use. The HDMI/DSP board becomes plagued with bit errors from degraded power supply filters and eventually fails entirely.

My TX-NR929 that includes better power management in the HDMI/DSP is doing slightly better than my TX-SR706 did, so far. Adding DIY heat sinking to the chips, or putting a fan on top of the case that blows directly at the HDMI board, helps keep the capacitors cooler by keeping the PCB cooler.

The internal fans of my 929 that could help with this problem have not once turned on because I am in an apartment and I cannot run the amps loud enough here to dissipate that much heat in the amplifiers and activate the fans. This receiver might paradoxically last longer if I can turn it up loud enough to activate the internal fans because the improved air flow might actually cool those vulnerable backplane capacitors down a little.

You will not notice that your capacitors are degraded until it gets bad enough to cause issues, but rest assured, they are fading slowly all the time and much more quickly if operating at elevated temperatures.

Mil spec are rated for 2000 hours. (disclaimer: I have not designed for a while and may be in error). Big whoop. Yes, they are better, probably much more than twice as reliable under elevated temperature than one would conclude from the spec, but they will still fail eventually if abused with a de facto oven environment. I try to buy PC components like motherboards and power supplies that advertise mil spec caps. Why invest in high performance equipment that will fail in 5 years? I am not a power user on the upgrade treadmill.

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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Life of semiconductor materials decreases exponentially with increase in temperature.
This statement may be technically true (or not, depending on the context) but is totally irrelevant to the average user who is not putting an inertial sensor into a drill bit at the bottom of an oil well. Semiconductors are very stable in consumer equipment. They do experience elevated temperatures because they are a primary (likely the primary) heat source in equipment, but with normal operation and heat sinking, their dissipation contributes far more to the degradation of capacitors nearby than to their own degradation IMO.

The next is a delightful mix of truth and misconception. I will focus on the misconception that I perceive.

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Originally Posted by noears View Post
If you are worried about the components in your AVR being temperature stressed, then you are basically accusing the engineers who designed it of being incompetent.
Corporations are legally driven under articles of incorporation to maximize profit as their sole responsibility to investors. It's not about incompetence or planned obsolescence either, it's about shaving margins.

The reliability/product engineers who do the dirty work make a product just as reliable as it needs to be to last 5 years without excessive design or maintenance cost (manufacturers in the USA have to stock parts for repair of products under 5 years old or buy it back, unless I am completely wrong or something changed recently that I missed). Leave us design engineers out of it please. We only get our hands dirty when the company is too small to afford marketing, product, and/or reliability engineers to collaborate in shaving those razor-thin safety margins to the limit.

Quote:
Unless we have reports of a high number of AVRs failing of shutting down due to overheating... or higher power consumption than the competition.
See 'Onkyo' above.

Quote:
If the Yamaha feels cooler to the touch, its because the designers implemented heat sinking which doesn't couple to the case as much as the Denon, not because its generating less heat.
Maybe true, maybe not, but omits vital information about processors.

Newer products that incorporate smaller transistors in the processing path can dissipate much less power while doing the same work, or do much more work while dissipating the same amount of power. Modern receivers do a lot of DSP.

Unless we have detailed knowledge and a compelling reason to use it when making a purchase, we probably will not benefit from this factoid in the slightest, but we might detect the change when our latest and greatest new toy runs delightfully cool compared to the obsolete boat anchor that is holding the door open while we take out the trash.

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Originally Posted by noears View Post
I would love to see the data behind this claim: "Most studies show that every 10 degree increase over 85 degrees F leads to a whopping 40% reduction in your equipment’s life span.".
See 'capacitors' above. It's not the same thing as implied in this running conversation about the reliability of semiconductors, but IMO it is the principle factor regarding lifespan vs. operating temperature of the AVR.

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I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass.
Me neither. I'm just a pedantic PITA though. It's in my nature.

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Originally Posted by torii View Post
when I crank my avr to 0 master volume for a couple hrs it gets up to 150 degree F. the marantz tech support laughed at me impossible til I sent them a vid clip of it real time...then they said my infra red thermometer must be defective...this was 2 years ago +...still working but I want it to die for upgrad itus
150F is ~66C. That is way too hot for the case/chassis from my perspective, but I would not be surprised, particularly if measured in an enclosure during warm summer months with no AC. Maybe you cherry-picked a hot spot on the case or took a reading through perforations/louvers and got a higher reading than the case actually experienced.

Tech support often gives the wrong information. Sometimes even the closeted engineers behind that tech support public firewall don't know what they are talking about. I've been one of them at various times and stumbled into them even more frequently. It happens. The ones who are really good at the art won't generally talk to customers on the help line and often showed disdain for someone of my caliber too who occasionally needed their advice, particularly when I'm being an ignorant, overly ambitious, pedantic pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted by noears View Post
And unless you are measuring those components temperatures directly, you have no idea how close to their reliability limit they are.
Bingo!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by noears View Post
So yes I could cool my ASICs, capacitors, inductors, MOSFETS, etc... from 80% of the rated temperature to 50%, but the increase in reliability would be so small its not worth investing the fans or material to do so.

Just trying to discuss some data behind this before people run off and spend money they don't necessarily need to on cooling devices.
Keeping the electrolytic capacitors cooler would bring the biggest benefit IMO and is worthwhile any time the case feels uncomfortably warm to the touch when sensed far from any obvious major heat sources like external/case heatsinked power transistors, or when the power transistors aren't really dissipating much power at lower volume. Miniaturization of capacitors has put more demands on the electrolyte and moved it closer to heat sources, while surface mount technology couples more heat into capacitors from the PCB too.

That is, worth it if you are planning on keeping the equipment five years or more, or you intentionally bought something with a known thermal issue that causes premature failure. Otherwise I would not bother.

I am wondering if failing aspects of Onkyo HDMI design are being incorporated into the newer Pioneer products, or if reliable aspects of Pioneer HDMI design are being incorporated into the newer Onkyo products, or if the two lines are still operating independently. That is insider information I could use when considering my next purchase (psst hint hint Russia I'd love it if you put it on Wikileaks).

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
....today's AVRs lack the over-design that previous generation AVRs included.


I don't think it has anything to do with 'over-design'. That is a feature reserved for very high-end niche equipment for industrial use where reliability trumps cost, or for the idle rich who don't want to waste effort replacing failed components instead of golfing. The professional PA at a Metallica concert is likely somewhat over-designed to avoid blowing a live show where they have to issue gobs of refunds and lose everything they invested in the gig. A consumer AVR is almost certainly not overdesigned, at least not intentionally, regardless of when it was built. That would violate the corporate mandate to maximize profit and the CEO would be floating to earth on a golden parachute.

Quote:
For example, once an output device's case temperature heats up to like 60 degrees C, its efficiency drops rapidly as its SOA (safe operating area) decreases while the user responds by increasing the volume level that accelerates the subject process.


The safe operating area is a fixed specification on a component, not a moving target that changes with the temperature of the case. I think you stumbled on your language but I get the idea you were trying to convey.

I find your statement about the user increasing the volume in response to decreasing device gain baffling, unless you are assuming no feedback around the device to stabilize the gain of the stage.

Even then it is still baffling because the gain of a typical output voltage follower stage that is commonly used to boost the output current in a low/no feedback amplifier (here I am wandering out of my depth maybe) is near unity due exactly to internal feedback within the semiconductor, where the input node and output node of the feedback path are physically identical in that topology of circuit. The gain of the stage doesn't change.

The output power does not drop unless the thermal protection activates and then it is probably going to just click off until the temperature drops to a safe level again.

---

I hope that helps. Apologies for my pedanticisms.
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post #32 of 50 Old 03-12-2018, 04:13 PM
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whats horrible about my temp readings is that i use external amps for 2 channel...so whats creating all that heat?

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post #33 of 50 Old 03-12-2018, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noears View Post
By all means, if it gives you peace of mind, add cooling to your AVR. Just realize that unless you've popped the lid and taken temperature measurements of the critical components within the AVR, you don't know how cool or hot you are actually running.

I'm an electrical engineer myself and have shipped many designs into the field without components failing above expected rates. We target 20% less than the component's maximum specification (which is usually 85C+ for electronics components). At that temperature component failures are well below predicted FIT rates. So yes I could cool my ASICs, capacitors, inductors, MOSFETS, etc... from 80% of the rated temperature to 50%, but the increase in reliability would be so small its not worth investing the fans or material to do so.

Just trying to discuss some data behind this before people run off and spend money they don't necessarily need to on cooling devices.
Dunno, maybe it's all a sales pitch and cooling fan snake oil. But I wonder why any manufacturer would go to the effort of installing internal cooling fans if there really isn't issue? Or why an AV manufacturer would recommend generous clearances (that are often not practical) if heat was not a concern? I'd assume those engineers kinda would know what they are doing? Sure, heat concerns will vary from component to component based on their design.

And I can certainly appreciate what you're trying to do, don't get me wrong.

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post #34 of 50 Old 03-12-2018, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Thanks for ur comments..
However we understand very well the subject of heat generation within an AVR and amplifier...
Does the Arrhenius equation apply to electronics? In my line of work it applies to lubricating oils and sealing materials.

Last edited by 2dflyer; 03-12-2018 at 09:50 PM. Reason: clarification
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post #35 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 2dflyer View Post
Does the Arrhenius equation apply to electronics? In my line of work it applies to lubricating oils and sealing materials.
It applies to at least aluminum electrolytic capacitors. Typically the rating is 1,000 hrs. at 85 degrees Celsius; double life for each 10 degree drop, half life for each 10 degree rise. Some capacitors are rated at 105 degrees Celsius or other temperatures and/or more hours as a base, with the lifetime figured from there. In a well designed piece of AV equipment, located according to the manufacturer's advice, the capacitors don't get nearly this hot.

That said, fan cooling is always a good idea if space and sound level conditions allow. Blowing air into the unit through an easily cleaned/replaced filter provides the best results. Just blowing air into the unit without filtration will ultimately cause dust buildup that reduces the cooling efficiency of the unit.
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post #36 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
But I wonder why any manufacturer would go to the effort of installing internal cooling fans if there really isn't issue? Or why an AV manufacturer would recommend generous clearances (that are often not practical) if heat was not a concern?
If they use fans they probably wanted to $ave on heat sinks, in which case if they didn't there *would* be an issue.

I'm with you on the clearances, as plenty of people use equipment racks which don't have them.

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post #37 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
Ouch. I'm not even working as an engineer any longer and I see maybe half a dozen misconceptions or conflations promulgated on this thread that could use some clarification. I will share what info I have, and apologies in advance if I too am promulgating any misconceptions or conflations. I never designed AV equipment, just for full disclosure.
Since U admitted no experience in designing AV products, several of ur following comments are inaccurate.

Quote:
It's the electrolytic capacitors. The electrolyte chemically degrades under prolonged elevated temperatures. Electrolyte was also behind the 'capacitor plague' where a stolen, incomplete formula was used by multiple manufacturers. The part of the formula that was missing was the part that stabilizes the electrolyte.

Commercial spec capacitors are rated for 1000 hours of operation within rated tolerance at 85C (translates to... um... roughly six weeks) whereas commercial spec integrated circuits will run basically indefinitely at that junction (not case) temperature. Capacitors don't dissipate appreciable power internally, and they don't usually experience anything like that temperature, but they still get baked to death eventually inside a hot chassis, particularly if the PCB they are mounted to is doing double duty as the primary heat sink for the integrated circuits on it.

This is the problem with Onkyo receivers IMO. Their backplane is so hot that the commercial spec local regulator filter capacitors degrade drastically with normal use. The HDMI/DSP board becomes plagued with bit errors from degraded power supply filters and eventually fails entirely.

My TX-NR929 that includes better power management in the HDMI/DSP is doing slightly better than my TX-SR706 did, so far. Adding DIY heat sinking to the chips, or putting a fan on top of the case that blows directly at the HDMI board, helps keep the capacitors cooler by keeping the PCB cooler.

The internal fans of my 929 that could help with this problem have not once turned on because I am in an apartment and I cannot run the amps loud enough here to dissipate that much heat in the amplifiers and activate the fans. This receiver might paradoxically last longer if I can turn it up loud enough to activate the internal fans because the improved air flow might actually cool those vulnerable backplane capacitors down a little. You will not notice that your capacitors are degraded until it gets bad enough to cause issues, but rest assured, they are fading slowly all the time and much more quickly if operating at elevated temperatures.
Mil spec are rated for 2000 hours. (disclaimer: I have not designed for a while and may be in error). Big whoop. Yes, they are better, probably much more than twice as reliable under elevated temperature than one would conclude from the spec, but they will still fail eventually if abused with a de facto oven environment. I try to buy PC components like motherboards and power supplies that advertise mil spec caps. Why invest in high performance equipment that will fail in 5 years? I am not a power user on the upgrade treadmill.
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors used in AV products typically are designed for 5K hours....
Especially crucial even in high humidity districts and 12V OE auto applications. The reasons Onkyo AVRs run hot is due to:
1. High idle bias setting as to minimize x-over distortion, leaving the output device partially ON so it is dissipating heat. If the bias is set on the lower side the output device is almost off, and must turn when the signal swing demands making its turn ON audible.
2. The processors for control, connectivity, audio processing or HDMI are overclocked.

Quote:
Corporations are legally driven under articles of incorporation to maximize profit as their sole responsibility to investors. It's not about incompetence or planned obsolescence either, it's about shaving margins.

The reliability/product engineers who do the dirty work make a product just as reliable as it needs to be to last 5 years without excessive design or maintenance cost (manufacturers in the USA have to stock parts for repair of products under 5 years old or buy it back, unless I am completely wrong or something changed recently that I missed). Leave us design engineers out of it please. We only get our hands dirty when the company is too small to afford marketing, product, and/or reliability engineers to collaborate in shaving those razor-thin safety margins to the limit.
Check the financials for every AVR brand, the only brand making $ is Yamaha. So every feature and component is scrutinized as to reduce the bill of materials. Also another reason why the average warranty periods have been decreased by up to 50% compared to previous AVR generations of just a few years back.

Quote:
Tech support often gives the wrong information. Sometimes even the closeted engineers behind that tech support public firewall don't know what they are talking about. I've been one of them at various times and stumbled into them even more frequently. It happens. The ones who are really good at the art won't generally talk to customers on the help line and often showed disdain for someone of my caliber too who occasionally needed their advice, particularly when I'm being an ignorant, overly ambitious, pedantic pain in the ass.
There is no more knowledgable tech support, all outsourced from either India or Philippines. Another part of expense cutting..

Quote:
I don't think it has anything to do with 'over-design'. That is a feature reserved for very high-end niche equipment for industrial use where reliability trumps cost, or for the idle rich who don't want to waste effort replacing failed components instead of golfing. The professional PA at a Metallica concert is likely somewhat over-designed to avoid blowing a live show where they have to issue gobs of refunds and lose everything they invested in the gig. A consumer AVR is almost certainly not overdesigned, at least not intentionally, regardless of when it was built. That would violate the corporate mandate to maximize profit and the CEO would be floating to earth on a golden parachute.
Incorrect...
Reliability for pro-audio products/applications are totally different than consumer, in pro the last thing U want is to lose a power amplifier channel or woofer during a performance. Thats why pro-audio amplifier racks have spare channels, the tech simply connects the down channel to a good one.

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The safe operating area is a fixed specification on a component, not a moving target that changes with the temperature of the case. I think you stumbled on your language but I get the idea you were trying to convey.I find your statement about the user increasing the volume in response to decreasing device gain baffling, unless you are assuming no feedback around the device to stabilize the gain of the stage.
Even then it is still baffling because the gain of a typical output voltage follower stage that is commonly used to boost the output current in a low/no feedback amplifier (here I am wandering out of my depth maybe) is near unity due exactly to internal feedback within the semiconductor, where the input node and output node of the feedback path are physically identical in that topology of circuit. The gain of the stage doesn't change.
No stumbling here..
Every output device has a safe operating area for voltage & current, its parts of their data tech pack. This decreases significantly as the case temperature for the device heats up.. As the output stage/device heats up it output capability decreases so either the thermal or current protection kicks in. This easily verified check the output power in a cold start and then 1 hour later check again after 1/3 power preconditioning. A typical decrease is 20%.

Quote:
The output power does not drop unless the thermal protection activates and then it is probably going to just click off until the temperature drops to a safe level again.
Again U need to do some homework study on audio amplifier protection schemes for consumer products, its output power tends to be throttled back not total shutdown. But in pro-audio products/applications if the output stage current is too high, excessive temperature or low loudspeaker impedance load the respective protection circuitry cuts out the voltage to the amplifier driver or output stage stage.

Just my $0.02...
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post #38 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
There is no more knowledgable tech support, all outsourced from either India or Philippines. Another part of expense cutting..
Well, not sure about other brands entirely - but Anthem/Paradigm gets you knowledgeable support in Canada. Part of being a boutique brand I guess (Anthem). I'm not complaining.
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post #39 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Well, not sure about other brands entirely - but Anthem/Paradigm gets you knowledgeable support in Canada. Part of being a boutique brand I guess (Anthem). I'm not complaining.
Mostly referring to the mass market AVR brands..
Anthem is a great focused brand, note their AVRs are built in Vietnam @ the same factory that previously assembled the Marantz and Harman/Kardon AVRs.

Just my $0.02...
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post #40 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.
If you're running external amplification why not put the AVR in ECO mode. It will definitely run cooler. That's what I do with my x3300.

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post #41 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 05:57 PM
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So kinda related to the OP...are there any pre/pros that are pretty good about power consumption? For instance:
Marantz 8805 = 90 watts
Marantz 7704 = 60 watts
Yamaha A5100 = 30/60 watts
Arcam 860 = 50 watts
NAD T 773 = 70 watts
Anthem AVM 60 = 60 watts

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post #42 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
If you're running external amplification why not put the AVR in ECO mode. It will definitely run cooler. That's what I do with my x3300.
I am running it in ECO mode.I'd like to try to get it to run cooler.
Not sure if it's possible.I think I'll try a AC Infinity fan.
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post #43 of 50 Old 03-13-2018, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Aluminum electrolytic capacitors used in AV products typically are designed for 5K hours....
Especially crucial even in high humidity districts and 12V OE auto applications. The reasons Onkyo AVRs run hot is due to: .....

Just my $0.02...
Anyone know if NAD still uses ACON capacitors in their models ?

Jump to ~12:43 for the cap info.


Last edited by nameless33; 03-13-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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post #44 of 50 Old 03-14-2018, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Since U admitted no experience in designing AV products, several of ur following comments are inaccurate.
Doesn’t surprise me in the least. Except only one statement I made is possibly grammatically incorrect while conceptually and in context more accurate than yours, but seemed to trigger you, and the rest speak more to your assumptions about everything I didn’t say, not what I said.

I did design my own 400w bridge mode bass amplifier. I used a schematic from a single ended 20w amp in a 1973? RCA transistor manual and modified it because I was still a child and didn’t know what transconductance meant. It worked OK.

I also designed a bridge mode power booster for my car stereo back when that was a new thing, my own creation. I used a voltage tripler for power supply. That whine was difficult for a budding adult with no degree nor money to contain but I didn’t mind. It was better than spending a month’s worth of food budget on a stupid amp.

I winged both projects, the first at age 16 and the second at 18. I learned the calculus later in my undergrad and moved on to mixed signal. I’ve torched my own AB amp designs with thermal runaway at home as a kid when I got home from school and repaired dozens for similar failures e.g. Dynaco before getting my degree. It’s far from rocket science.

I used one channel of an ancient Tek scope to debug the failed tunnel diode in the trigger circuit of the other channel. There’s more, later.

So your comment about no experience isn’t exactly accurate. I’ve never designed AV professionally, true, but i’m not a windbag either.

Quote:
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors used in AV products typically are designed for 5K hours....
Especially crucial even in high humidity districts and 12V OE auto applications.
Are you speaking for Onkyo? What era? Last time I repaired one I scoped out parts online and didn’t find any 5000 hour caps that weren’t mil spec too and consumer caps aren’t mil spec unless it’s advertised.

Specs may have changed. Performance probably hasn’t. As you pointed out, companies are cheating everywhere to save money, including capacitor manufacturers that seem to steal each other’s incomplete formulas and generate an entire national industry in capacitors off that leg up. It’s a thing now, corruption. Did you notice?

I am not trying to impugn or anything, I am just curious

If Onkyo managed to burn through those caps so quickly in my son’s TX-SR606 that were so great, why did a set of 50 year old leaded electrolytic aluminum caps that I borrowed from my father’s stash we bought at surplus in 1975 for pennies each, of the same specs, the size of mini sausages, that I wired into it as very long-leaded replacements, last for.... ummm... about six years now without a hitch, despite laying tight to the frying PCB because they barely fit between boards in the backplane?

Something’s not credible here. Somehow this data does not fit the matrix. I’ve got evidence.

Nor does the set of 4 other dead-or-dying similar and more recent Onkyos, one mine and three that my daughter and neighbor received from me, fit this oh well it’s a hot receiver narrative. I can go buy five of them on Craigslist next week. The Bay Area is flooded with dead Onkyos and that’s not counting eBay.

I’d sorely like to know what really went on with this backplane design. You blame bias current and overclocking. I’m not buying it.

Why are they overclocking without a heat sink? Yes they have a hot board. Fine. Something still stinks. That $2 heat sink on the DSP they forgot could have saved them a lot in warranty repairs and reputation, or they could have just used faster silicon and been more careful with the power management. It seems like a rather sophomoric mistake, don’t you think? Was it incompetence or not? Why shave margins so close that the thing self-destructs?

I own a working Pioneer receiver from the early 1970’s with that polished aluminum and glass faceplate and even the tuner still sounds OK. It has one burned out indicator panel light on the input selector. I’d love it to die so I can finally leave it behind but the truth is it’s likely more reliable than anything I could buy today for similar adjusted cost and with some new caps/alignment could easily last the rest of my life while meeting original specs.

Sometimes I wonder if we’ve gone down a blind alley with this tech explosion. We are swimming in landfill already.

[quote]Check the financials for every AVR brand, the only brand making $ is Yamaha. So every feature and component is scrutinized as to reduce the bill of materials. Also another reason why the average warranty periods have been decreased by up to 50% compared to previous AVR generations of just a few years back.
Quote:

Apparently you don’t understand the economy then. Corporations rarely make money anymore. They still do quite well, they just don’t pay taxes and eat each other like cannibals while they externalizations costs and repatriate the spoils on holiday. But we are straying off topic here.

Quote:
There is no more knowledgable tech support, all outsourced from either India or Philippines. Another part of expense cutting..
No argument there.

(Quote]Incorrect...
Reliability for pro-audio products/applications are totally different than consumer, in pro the last thing U want is to lose a power amplifier channel or woofer during a performance. Thats why pro-audio amplifier racks have spare channels, the tech simply connects the down channel to a good one.
I think you just agreed with me. I never said anything about how that reliability is incorporated, you just assumed. I mix. I own some PA, not much but I had more before I graduated and moved. I understand redundancy and I’ve browsed specialty amps online with eight power transistors driving where they only really need one to handle the load.

[quote]
No stumbling here..
Every output device has a safe operating area for voltage & current, its parts of their data tech pack. This decreases significantly as the case temperature for the device heats up.. As the output stage/device heats up it output capability decreases so either the thermal or current protection kicks in. This easily verified check the output power in a cold start and then 1 hour later check again after 1/3 power preconditioning. A typical decrease is 20%.
[quote]

It’s a family of curves. The safe operating area is actually a three dimensional volume. It’s a single spec. It doesn’t change unless you want to limit it to an ‘area’ for some strange reason while designing a power stage, like it’s the sacred word area that matters more to the forum readers when it’s really a volume the engineer considers as one entity.

I guess I just think and communicate holistically. I’ve never been one to follow a crowd anyway. I’m trying to let people know that the safe operating area of their receivers doesn’t change just because it’s a hot day. They don’t have to turn it down to avoid burning it out. Consider the audience.

[quote]Again U need to do some homework study on audio amplifier protection schemes for consumer products, its output power tends to be throttled back not total shutdown. [quote]

OK so they add some compression/limiting in the signal path to keep high powered equipment from generating tweeter-blowing distortion and burning itself out trying to source square waves. I use the same when I mix for bands and configure it in the mixer with my iPad to protect the old analog amps I use that have little such protection in them because it wasnt such a thing back when they were made as it is now that every bathroom scale has a processor in it. I try not to slam my PB10’s here at home with Edge of Tomorrow and Interstellar because I’m bright enough to realize that their non-DSP limiting is not nearly as robust or pleasing to listen to as the newer DSP-based PB1000 is.

And the point is...?

Quote:
But in pro-audio products/applications if the output stage current is too high, excessive temperature or low loudspeaker impedance load the respective protection circuitry cuts out the voltage to the amplifier driver or output stage stage.

Just my $0.02...
I understand short circuit output protection. I have designed fold back.

Well aside from the defensive reaction and diversionary tactic to call attention from the fact that engineers do in fact sabotage designs for profit under orders, sometimes, I think we have an understanding now.

I’ve never participated in that. Never had to, not since my fresh-out experience in the military-industrial complex doing inertial guidance, right after the first gulf war. It’s sort of a thing with me. I try not to increase the level of misery in the world if I can help it.

I typically spend more effort preventing and fixing bugs. I made a couple fresh-out mistakes on portions of unrealistic pre-doomed projects that were supposed to support the troops, but were boondoggles of red tape and failed execution that got fully paid for anyway because if the generals didn’t spend the whole budget every year congress would cut it. Ever since, I have triple-checked everything in aversion of further embarrassment and found plenty of other’s mistakes getting through the pipeline, but none of my own.

Some of the problems I discovered were ignored by management on advice of the Ph.Ds and I had to either prove the issue irrelevant or devise the solutions after the fact when the lack of concern persisted higher up, at drastic yield hits in the screening.

I’ve embarked on ludicrous feasibility studies under orders and under protest that went nowhere because they were political moves with no real point but going through the motions while the company was repackaged, flipped by vulture capitalists, and disembowled for the Intellectual property and customers.

I’ve watched the dog buy the tail that wagged it when the board went crazy on the acquisitions and lost control.

I don’t think there’s any point continuing. We violently agree on the technical details but we are still stumbling in the conversation. I’ve had my say. I don’t buy the narrative. I’ve seen too much evidence of malfeasance and incompetence with my own eyes to fall for that fairy tale any more of the engineer in the white hat on his white stallion keeping the world safe for all us plebes at Wal-mart. I’m just more outspoken about it than you are comfortable with.

That’s fine with me. I’m just happy that my TX-NR929 is still working. It’s a great receiver.
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post #45 of 50 Old 03-14-2018, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
It’s a family of curves. The safe operating area is actually a three dimensional volume.

Is one of the dimensions temperature?

If not it would seem that the SOA would shrink with increasing temp.

Noah
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post #46 of 50 Old 03-14-2018, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
I am running it in ECO mode.I'd like to try to get it to run cooler.
Not sure if it's possible.I think I'll try a AC Infinity fan.
Looks like you got more than you bargained for out of this thread!

Yeah, that AC Infinity unit will help you run cooler, no doubt. All the science and physics aside, I say just go for it! If you're not happy, it can always be returned. Salamander also offers their rear cooling panel. I needed an extended rear panel for the depth of my main amp, so I just opted for the cooling one instead the plain one. Much quieter than the AC Infinity design, but not as effective - still, it'd do what you need it to do, and you can get it flat, not extended - so that's an option too.

If you have Chameleon that is. Not sure if they make/work for the Synergy, depending on which lineup you've got?

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #47 of 50 Old 03-14-2018, 12:49 PM
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[quote=CherylJosie;55851302]Doesn’t surprise me in the least. Except only one statement I made is possibly grammatically incorrect while conceptually and in context more accurate than yours, but seemed to trigger you, and the rest speak more to your assumptions about everything I didn’t say, not what I said.

I did design my own 400w bridge mode bass amplifier. I used a schematic from a single ended 20w amp in a 1973? RCA transistor manual and modified it because I was still a child and didn’t know what transconductance meant. It worked OK.

I also designed a bridge mode power booster for my car stereo back when that was a new thing, my own creation. I used a voltage tripler for power supply. That whine was difficult for a budding adult with no degree nor money to contain but I didn’t mind. It was better than spending a month’s worth of food budget on a stupid amp.

I winged both projects, the first at age 16 and the second at 18. I learned the calculus later in my undergrad and moved on to mixed signal. I’ve torched my own AB amp designs with thermal runaway at home as a kid when I got home from school and repaired dozens for similar failures e.g. Dynaco before getting my degree. It’s far from rocket science.

I used one channel of an ancient Tek scope to debug the failed tunnel diode in the trigger circuit of the other channel. There’s more, later.

So your comment about no experience isn’t exactly accurate. I’ve never designed AV professionally, true, but i’m not a windbag either.



Are you speaking for Onkyo? What era? Last time I repaired one I scoped out parts online and didn’t find any 5000 hour caps that weren’t mil spec too and consumer caps aren’t mil spec unless it’s advertised.

Specs may have changed. Performance probably hasn’t. As you pointed out, companies are cheating everywhere to save money, including capacitor manufacturers that seem to steal each other’s incomplete formulas and generate an entire national industry in capacitors off that leg up. It’s a thing now, corruption. Did you notice?

I am not trying to impugn or anything, I am just curious

If Onkyo managed to burn through those caps so quickly in my son’s TX-SR606 that were so great, why did a set of 50 year old leaded electrolytic aluminum caps that I borrowed from my father’s stash we bought at surplus in 1975 for pennies each, of the same specs, the size of mini sausages, that I wired into it as very long-leaded replacements, last for.... ummm... about six years now without a hitch, despite laying tight to the frying PCB because they barely fit between boards in the backplane?

Something’s not credible here. Somehow this data does not fit the matrix. I’ve got evidence.

Nor does the set of 4 other dead-or-dying similar and more recent Onkyos, one mine and three that my daughter and neighbor received from me, fit this oh well it’s a hot receiver narrative. I can go buy five of them on Craigslist next week. The Bay Area is flooded with dead Onkyos and that’s not counting eBay.

I’d sorely like to know what really went on with this backplane design. You blame bias current and overclocking. I’m not buying it.

Why are they overclocking without a heat sink? Yes they have a hot board. Fine. Something still stinks. That $2 heat sink on the DSP they forgot could have saved them a lot in warranty repairs and reputation, or they could have just used faster silicon and been more careful with the power management. It seems like a rather sophomoric mistake, don’t you think? Was it incompetence or not? Why shave margins so close that the thing self-destructs?

I own a working Pioneer receiver from the early 1970’s with that polished aluminum and glass faceplate and even the tuner still sounds OK. It has one burned out indicator panel light on the input selector. I’d love it to die so I can finally leave it behind but the truth is it’s likely more reliable than anything I could buy today for similar adjusted cost and with some new caps/alignment could easily last the rest of my life while meeting original specs.

Sometimes I wonder if we’ve gone down a blind alley with this tech explosion. We are swimming in landfill already.

[quote]Check the financials for every AVR brand, the only brand making $ is Yamaha. So every feature and component is scrutinized as to reduce the bill of materials. Also another reason why the average warranty periods have been decreased by up to 50% compared to previous AVR generations of just a few years back.

I think you just agreed with me. I never said anything about how that reliability is incorporated, you just assumed. I mix. I own some PA, not much but I had more before I graduated and moved. I understand redundancy and I’ve browsed specialty amps online with eight power transistors driving where they only really need one to handle the load.

[quote]
No stumbling here..
Every output device has a safe operating area for voltage & current, its parts of their data tech pack. This decreases significantly as the case temperature for the device heats up.. As the output stage/device heats up it output capability decreases so either the thermal or current protection kicks in. This easily verified check the output power in a cold start and then 1 hour later check again after 1/3 power preconditioning. A typical decrease is 20%.
[quote]

It’s a family of curves. The safe operating area is actually a three dimensional volume. It’s a single spec. It doesn’t change unless you want to limit it to an ‘area’ for some strange reason while designing a power stage, like it’s the sacred word area that matters more to the forum readers when it’s really a volume the engineer considers as one entity.

I guess I just think and communicate holistically. I’ve never been one to follow a crowd anyway. I’m trying to let people know that the safe operating area of their receivers doesn’t change just because it’s a hot day. They don’t have to turn it down to avoid burning it out. Consider the audience.

[quote]Again U need to do some homework study on audio amplifier protection schemes for consumer products, its output power tends to be throttled back not total shutdown.
Quote:

OK so they add some compression/limiting in the signal path to keep high powered equipment from generating tweeter-blowing distortion and burning itself out trying to source square waves. I use the same when I mix for bands and configure it in the mixer with my iPad to protect the old analog amps I use that have little such protection in them because it wasnt such a thing back when they were made as it is now that every bathroom scale has a processor in it. I try not to slam my PB10’s here at home with Edge of Tomorrow and Interstellar because I’m bright enough to realize that their non-DSP limiting is not nearly as robust or pleasing to listen to as the newer DSP-based PB1000 is.

And the point is...?



I understand short circuit output protection. I have designed fold back.

Well aside from the defensive reaction and diversionary tactic to call attention from the fact that engineers do in fact sabotage designs for profit under orders, sometimes, I think we have an understanding now.

I’ve never participated in that. Never had to, not since my fresh-out experience in the military-industrial complex doing inertial guidance, right after the first gulf war. It’s sort of a thing with me. I try not to increase the level of misery in the world if I can help it.

I typically spend more effort preventing and fixing bugs. I made a couple fresh-out mistakes on portions of unrealistic pre-doomed projects that were supposed to support the troops, but were boondoggles of red tape and failed execution that got fully paid for anyway because if the generals didn’t spend the whole budget every year congress would cut it. Ever since, I have triple-checked everything in aversion of further embarrassment and found plenty of other’s mistakes getting through the pipeline, but none of my own.

Some of the problems I discovered were ignored by management on advice of the Ph.Ds and I had to either prove the issue irrelevant or devise the solutions after the fact when the lack of concern persisted higher up, at drastic yield hits in the screening.

I’ve embarked on ludicrous feasibility studies under orders and under protest that went nowhere because they were political moves with no real point but going through the motions while the company was repackaged, flipped by vulture capitalists, and disembowled for the Intellectual property and customers.

I’ve watched the dog buy the tail that wagged it when the board went crazy on the acquisitions and lost control.

I don’t think there’s any point continuing. We violently agree on the technical details but we are still stumbling in the conversation. I’ve had my say. I don’t buy the narrative. I’ve seen too much evidence of malfeasance and incompetence with my own eyes to fall for that fairy tale any more of the engineer in the white hat on his white stallion keeping the world safe for all us plebes at Wal-mart. I’m just more outspoken about it than you are comfortable with.

That’s fine with me. I’m just happy that my TX-NR929 is still working. It’s a great receiver.
Many thanks for the response, unfortunately U have limited knowledge/experience about the AVR product development and what goes into the subject process...
Anyway, it is positive to hear U enjoy ur Onkyo TX-NR929 as the design is now 5 years old, and since this is 1 of the AVR platforms as the Sr.Product manager we led the product development team including software, hardware, validation..

Just my $0.02...
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post #48 of 50 Old 03-14-2018, 04:33 PM
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I thought I left all of this minutia when I left engineering. Yes, even a good design will be more reliable if it can run cooler. Cooler semiconductor junction/die temperatures that is.

So, in general, if your AVR, AVP, or amp is in a cabinet, there are two low cost things that can keep your equipment running as cool as possible.

1. Forced air ventilation into the cabinet. Ideally, input low, output near the top. But, if you can move air through the cabinet and not have any dead spots around your gear, you’ll minimize the ambient temperature rise in the cabinet.

2. Force air directly into each piece of equipment that has internal heat sinks, processors, etc. It’s easier to blow air into the case instead of trying to suck air through it. In other words, if you put a fan on top, blow down into the case.

If it’s an amp with external heat sink fins and you think it’s too hot, blow air directly on the fins.

Moving the air without raising the ambient noise level could be a problem, there are lots of tricks you can research if you have that problem.
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post #49 of 50 Old 03-15-2018, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Looks like you got more than you bargained for out of this thread!

Yeah, that AC Infinity unit will help you run cooler, no doubt. All the science and physics aside, I say just go for it! If you're not happy, it can always be returned. Salamander also offers their rear cooling panel. I needed an extended rear panel for the depth of my main amp, so I just opted for the cooling one instead the plain one. Much quieter than the AC Infinity design, but not as effective - still, it'd do what you need it to do, and you can get it flat, not extended - so that's an option too.

If you have Chameleon that is. Not sure if they make/work for the Synergy, depending on which lineup you've got?
Thanks for the suggestion..
Yes,I had no idea what I would get out of this thread! Very informative.
I do have a Synergy(10-11 years old).I love this thing,still looks great, very well constructed, has casters and uprights to mount my TV.I'm not sure if the cooling rear panel works for my model.It looks fantastic though.
I'm ordering some longer interconnects to move my receiver to the middle bay.(Any suggestions on brands?).
I'll be able to adjust the shelf to give the receiver more room to breathe.

I think I'll order an AC Infinity Aircom T8 and see how that works.If it's too loud I'll return it(should be fine,I doubt it will run at that high of speed on Auto).
I have had issues with noisy fans before(Inuke 6000DSP),solved that with two 120mm fans.
Very nice system you have.
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post #50 of 50 Old 03-15-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
Thanks for the suggestion..
Yes,I had no idea what I would get out of this thread! Very informative.
I do have a Synergy(10-11 years old).I love this thing,still looks great, very well constructed, has casters and uprights to mount my TV.I'm not sure if the cooling rear panel works for my model.It looks fantastic though.
I'm ordering some longer interconnects to move my receiver to the middle bay.(Any suggestions on brands?).
I'll be able to adjust the shelf to give the receiver more room to breathe.

I think I'll order an AC Infinity Aircom T8 and see how that works.If it's too loud I'll return it(should be fine,I doubt it will run at that high of speed on Auto).
I have had issues with noisy fans before(Inuke 6000DSP),solved that with two 120mm fans.
Very nice system you have.
Ah, yeah, not sure if the Salamander cooling panels work on the Synergy. But the T8 will and with the perforated paneling you've got, I don't think it'll need to work too hard to keep things the way you want them, so fan noise shouldn't be too bad. The Synergy is nice, I've got one at work hosting AV gear that gets some abuse, and it's held up well!

Interconnects? I'd probably check Monoprice's offerings. Good quality for reasonable prices.

Keep up posted!

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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