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-   -   Does anyone make an AVR/Processor that stays somewhat cool? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2962936-does-anyone-make-avr-processor-stays-somewhat-cool.html)

markg35 03-11-2018 08:56 AM

Does anyone make an AVR/Processor that stays somewhat cool?
 
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.

jdlynch 03-11-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg35 (Post 55834824)
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.

I don't know your budget, but Datasat LS10 and Rs20i have thermostatically controlled cooling fans. You can find either on the used market.

Jonas2 03-11-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg35 (Post 55834824)
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.

I have a Salamander AV cabinet as well - 3 bays, my pre-pro is in a bay all by itself with generous clearances. It gets just warm, never hot. Solid doors and sides. I'd provide more clearance than 2", but if you can't, ACInfinity has cooling unit options that will easily fit on top in less than 2" profile. That'll help for sure. Is the back of the cabinet open? That'd help too, though not always practical to do so.

ceh383 03-11-2018 09:23 AM

I had a Denon 4520ci that ran very hot, like yours. I replaced it with a Yamaha RX-A2020, it runs noticeably cooler. I have installed in the same location in my AV cabinet.

bobknavs 03-11-2018 09:45 AM

I wonder whether the 3300 has built-in fans like the X4300H? I didn't find that in a quick web search.

The fans in the X4300H are thermostatically controlled, but supposedly come on only when it is fairly hot. I've never noticed them running.

2" of clearance on top of the 3300, particularly in a cabinet, may not be enough. My 4300 runs only warm, but it's in an open rack with 6" of top clearance.


The usual cheap solution is an additional cooling fan. You want one with a rear exhaust, like https://www.acinfinity.com/component...ar-exhaust-12/

farsider3000 03-11-2018 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg35 (Post 55834824)
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.

There are quite a few solutions. The easiest is to get air flow through your cabinet. You need a fan system that will pull in cool air from the outside and remove the hot air. Also your 2" clearance is probably not enough to allow the heat to flow out. The AVR is probably recirculating hot air.

You have to ensure that the fan is not just pulling in cool air from a side vent and not removing the heat. typically you want one open area from somewhere in the front of the cabinet to allow cool air to flow over the AVR through the rear cabinet fan so that the hot air is removed. Air will take the path of least resistance so you may need to actually plug some of the side vents if you go to an active cooling solution. Place the fan at the back of the cabinet as high on the back panel as possible. This can also be accomplished on the side of the cabinet but it might be more difficult.


My Datasat LS10 is the coolest running processor I have ever owned. As previously mentioned it is pricey.

I just purchased a Marantz 8805 processor and it is pretty cool as well.

Usually heat comes from the amplifiers and from the HDMI board on AVR. The newer HDMI boards seem to run a lot cooler than those of 5-7 years ago.

Your AVR will likely still produce quite a bit of heat from the amplifier units and potentially from the HDMI board. I would look at active cooling solutions from AC infinity and also add fans to remove air from your cabinet. There are also very quiet fans designed for PC cabinets such as Noctua. I built a fan system with an auto turn on sensor using Noctua fans and it was very quiet depending on the rpm I set. The fans will produce some noise so you will need to test this to see if it bothers you.

frank xbe 03-11-2018 09:54 AM

Quote:

markg35 Does anyone make an AVR/Processor that stays somewhat cool?
My few yrs old 110 wpc Sony ES 7.1 AVR is decently cool even at elevated levels it has cast aluminum heat sinks inside,metal case and top.

noah katz 03-11-2018 11:19 AM


smithsabom 03-11-2018 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 55835660)

Yes, I am using the AC Infinity S8. Does the job. I would probably go with the T8 if I had to do it over again.

rboster 03-11-2018 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 55835660)

Another happy user. The receivers (after hours of usage) are still very cool to the touch. I personally wouldn't chose a receiver based on the "usage temp" when you have an inexpensive product that makes the receiver's temp a non-issue.

djp2k7 03-11-2018 12:49 PM

Pioneer elite avr's are using class D amps now which run quite cool

noears 03-11-2018 01:00 PM

What's the big deal if the amp runs hot? I see this concern on here all the time.

Even if the amp case were 50C, it would be uncomfortable to touch, but at that temperature I'm not aware of any materials in your rack that would be damaged.

What temperatures are people measuring?

noah katz 03-11-2018 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55836320)
Even if the amp case were 50C, it would be uncomfortable to touch, but at that temperature I'm not aware of any materials in your rack that would be damaged.


Life of semiconductor materials decreases exponentially with increase in temperature.

markg35 03-11-2018 04:37 PM

Thanks for the replys guys!
I think I'll try one of the AC Infinity products.My budget isn't that high for a Datasat LS10:eek: or the like.Super nice unit I'm sure.
I don't really have the room in the cabinet to give the receiver more space.It does have a mesh door in front, vents on the side and open in back.
I'm mainly just trying to get everything to run as cool as I can because of the heat radiating off of it.

noears 03-11-2018 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 55836836)
Life of semiconductor materials decreases exponentially with increase in temperature.

Yes, but the "knee" for when you start to see that is quite high. If you're not operating close to the component's rated maximum temperature (which I'm assuming the Denon engineers did their job and are keeping components below their maximum temp, even at a fairly high ambient), then you will not experience this.

If you are worried about the components in your AVR being temperature stressed, then you are basically accusing the engineers who designed it of being incompetent.

I believe this issue is more about how Denon implemented heat sinking (seemingly to the case) and the perception of that design. Many people have reported warm or hot AVRs with perfectly adequate ventilation in their cabinet. Unless we have reports of a high number of AVRs failing of shutting down due to overheating... or higher power consumption than the competition.

Another way to look at it: a Yamaha using 100W on average is going to generate the exact same amount of heat as a Denon using 100W average. If the Yamaha feels cooler to the touch, its because the designers implemented heat sinking which doesn't couple to the case as much as the Denon, not because its generating less heat.

torii 03-11-2018 05:25 PM

my marantz gets up around 130F in salamander cabinet...added some usb fans and now maybe 120max....marantz says designed at 108 or less...lol. even when I had my marantz avr open air it wasnt that cool.

ceh383 03-11-2018 05:37 PM

My Denon ran around 125 ~ 128° F when hardly pushed. My Yamaha got up to 105° F when ran hard trying to get it hot...the one and only time I got a neighbor complaint.

Jonas2 03-11-2018 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg35 (Post 55837404)
Thanks for the replys guys!
I think I'll try one of the AC Infinity products.
I'm mainly just trying to get everything to run as cool as I can because of the heat radiating off of it.

Just note, there is some fan noise (at least mine, at higher fan speeds) - these probably aren't the quietest units out there - but rest assured you're gonna keep that thing cool. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55836320)
What's the big deal if the amp runs hot? I see this concern on here all the time.

Even if the amp case were 50C, it would be uncomfortable to touch, but at that temperature I'm not aware of any materials in your rack that would be damaged.

Well;

https://www.audioholics.com/diy-audi...our-components

Quote:

Originally Posted by torii (Post 55837654)
my marantz gets up around 130F in salamander cabinet...added some usb fans and now maybe 120max....marantz says designed at 108 or less...lol. even when I had my marantz avr open air it wasnt that cool.

Yikes! Seems toasty!

dbfan 03-11-2018 06:13 PM

Use ECO mode it will lower the temp, page 216 in the manual.

M Code 03-11-2018 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55837638)
Yes, but the "knee" for when you start to see that is quite high. If you're not operating close to the component's rated maximum temperature (which I'm assuming the Denon engineers did their job and are keeping components below their maximum temp, even at a fairly high ambient), then you will not experience this.

If you are worried about the components in your AVR being temperature stressed, then you are basically accusing the engineers who designed it of being incompetent.

I believe this issue is more about how Denon implemented heat sinking (seemingly to the case) and the perception of that design. Many people have reported warm or hot AVRs with perfectly adequate ventilation in their cabinet. Unless we have reports of a high number of AVRs failing of shutting down due to overheating... or higher power consumption than the competition.

Another way to look at it: a Yamaha using 100W on average is going to generate the exact same amount of heat as a Denon using 100W average. If the Yamaha feels cooler to the touch, its because the designers implemented heat sinking which doesn't couple to the case as much as the Denon, not because its generating less heat.

Actual heat output is based upon the following:
  • Bias setting of output devices
  • Amount of heat sinking
  • Chassis size
  • Power supply, component over-design if any
  • Volume level setting
  • Loudspeaker load to the output stage

For AVRs especially entry level ones < $999 SRP, the brands have had to reduce any over-design as to control costs so the electrical components are now operated much closer to their max capability.

Just my $0.02... ;)

torii 03-11-2018 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 55838054)
Actual heat output is based upon the following:
  • Bias setting of output devices
  • Amount of heat sinking
  • Chassis size
  • Power supply, component over-design if any
  • Volume level setting
  • Loudspeaker load to the output stage

For AVRs especially entry level ones < $999 SRP, the brands have had to reduce any over-design as to control costs so the electrical components are now operated much closer to their max capability.

Just my $0.02... ;)

my silly tests showed the front panel being open on marantz model vs closed had biggest impact on heat.

noears 03-11-2018 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas2 (Post 55837742)

I would love to see the data behind this claim: "Most studies show that every 10 degree increase over 85 degrees F leads to a whopping 40% reduction in your equipment’s life span.".

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 55838054)
Actual heat output is based upon the following:
  • Bias setting of output devices
  • Amount of heat sinking
  • Chassis size
  • Power supply, component over-design if any
  • Volume level setting
  • Loudspeaker load to the output stage

Chassis size and heat sinking have nothing to do with heat output. The only sources of heat are the electronic components in the AVR. >98% of energy going through those components are turned into heat. Heat sinks and other mechanical parts only serve to spread that heat.

The other items on your list affect how much power the AVR is consuming. I choose 100W as an arbitrary example. Varying the load and the gain will of course affect the power consumption.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. I just suspect there is a bit of fear mongering going on with respect to warm to the touch chassis.

torii 03-11-2018 08:16 PM

when I crank my avr to 0 master volume for a couple hrs it gets up to 150 degree F. the marantz tech support laughed at me impossible til I sent them a vid clip of it real time...then they said my infra red thermometer must be defective...this was 2 years ago +...still working but I want it to die for upgrad itus :)

M Code 03-11-2018 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55838358)
Chassis size and heat sinking have nothing to do with heat output. The only sources of heat are the electronic components in the AVR. >98% of energy going through those components are turned into heat. Heat sinks and other mechanical parts only serve to spread that heat.

Hmmm.
If an AVR or amplifier is under heat sinked its internal temperature will rise faster.
Basic physics..
More heat sink area has significantly higher heat dissipation capability. Also a larger chassis has more space, between critical heat generation components including output stage and power transformer.

Just my $0.02.. ;)

jdsmoothie 03-12-2018 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg35 (Post 55834824)
I have a Denon AVR-X3300 that I’m using only as a processor, amplification provided by an Outlaw
Audio 755.It gets very hot,I know there are cooling fan solutions, which I might try.
The receiver is in a Salamander AV Cabinet,with a metal mesh screen door, vents on the side of the cabinet and an open back.There is 2" of clearance from the top of the receiver to the top of the cabinet.
I don't currently have a heat gun(thinking of getting a cheap one)
I realize current receivers have DSP and other chips that makes them possibly run warmer.

I’m wondering if there are processors that run cooler than the Denon I have. Anyone find a solution to this problem.

Most of the heat is generated from the video card. Your AVR gets "very hot" because it is poorly ventilated.

noears 03-12-2018 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 55838416)
Hmmm.
If an AVR or amplifier is under heat sinked its internal temperature will rise faster.
Basic physics..
More heat sink area has significantly higher heat dissipation capability. Also a larger chassis has more space, between critical heat generation components including output stage and power transformer.

Just my $0.02.. ;)

True statements. But in the context of this discussion, you have no idea what the internal components temperatures are. You have no idea what the relationship between case temperature or exhaust temperature is to those internal components. This is very specific to the design. Hot case doesn't necessarily mean hot components. It all depends how the designers coupled those components to the heatsink and chassis and how much moving or free air is available to those heat sinks.

And I think you are misunderstanding me when I say "heat generation". These are the electrical components. The heat sink and chassis are not consuming any power and therefore not creating any heat. Only the electrical components are the sources of heat. And unless you are measuring those components temperatures directly, you have no idea how close to their reliability limit they are.

Let's say the DSP ASIC is thermally coupled very well to the external case. The component is running at 80C and after heat transfer losses and some minor heat spreading across the thin case, the case temperature is 60C near the DSP. 60C will be very uncomfortable to touch and could even burn you if you keep your finger there. But 80C is nothing for that DSP. CMOS based logic devices can run at 100C-120C for a decade with no significant degradation. So perception of this hypothetical design and situation would be bad, but the component in questions has no reliability risk.

Jonas2 03-12-2018 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55838358)
I would love to see the data behind this claim: "Most studies show that every 10 degree increase over 85 degrees F leads to a whopping 40% reduction in your equipment’s life span.".

Give 'em a shout out, maybe they can help you with that. I'm not one myself, but I do know a few electrical engineers that although not stating the above directly, certainly indicate the reality that heat is not good for components like this. I'll keep mine cool, thanks.

noears 03-12-2018 09:34 AM

By all means, if it gives you peace of mind, add cooling to your AVR. Just realize that unless you've popped the lid and taken temperature measurements of the critical components within the AVR, you don't know how cool or hot you are actually running.

I'm an electrical engineer myself and have shipped many designs into the field without components failing above expected rates. We target 20% less than the component's maximum specification (which is usually 85C+ for electronics components). At that temperature component failures are well below predicted FIT rates. So yes I could cool my ASICs, capacitors, inductors, MOSFETS, etc... from 80% of the rated temperature to 50%, but the increase in reliability would be so small its not worth investing the fans or material to do so.

Just trying to discuss some data behind this before people run off and spend money they don't necessarily need to on cooling devices.

M Code 03-12-2018 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55839730)
True statements. But in the context of this discussion, you have no idea what the internal components temperatures are. You have no idea what the relationship between case temperature or exhaust temperature is to those internal components. This is very specific to the design. Hot case doesn't necessarily mean hot components. It all depends how the designers coupled those components to the heatsink and chassis and how much moving or free air is available to those heat sinks.

And I think you are misunderstanding me when I say "heat generation". These are the electrical components. The heat sink and chassis are not consuming any power and therefore not creating any heat. Only the electrical components are the sources of heat. And unless you are measuring those components temperatures directly, you have no idea how close to their reliability limit they are.

Let's say the DSP ASIC is thermally coupled very well to the external case. The component is running at 80C and after heat transfer losses and some minor heat spreading across the thin case, the case temperature is 60C near the DSP. 60C will be very uncomfortable to touch and could even burn you if you keep your finger there. But 80C is nothing for that DSP. CMOS based logic devices can run at 100C-120C for a decade with no significant degradation. So perception of this hypothetical design and situation would be bad, but the component in questions has no reliability risk.

Thanks for ur comments..
However we understand very well the subject of heat generation within an AVR and amplifier...
Since we have been sourcing/designing/validating/certifying AVRs and other CE products for many years for certain well-known brands. Basic premise is that as I posted previously, due to extreme market pressures and other crucial factors such as increased royalties, higher labor costs, currency exchange rates today's AVRs lack the over-design that previous generation AVRs included. Once the internal components buildup heat their reliability goes down hill fast.. For example, once an output device's case temperature heats up to like 60 degrees C, its efficiency drops rapidly as its SOA (safe operating area) decreases while the user responds by increasing the volume level that accelerates the subject process.
1 other factor is that the typical AVR user pays little attention in providing adequate free-air clearance for the L/R sides and top cover referenced to the manufacturer's recommendations. But since technologies are changing rapidly and AVR replacement costs are somewhat inexpensive, longer product reliability and life is not as pertinent.

Just my $0.02.. ;)

noah katz 03-12-2018 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noears (Post 55837638)
Yes, but the "knee" for when you start to see that is quite high...


Thanks, I didn't realize there was a knee in the curve; at roughly what temp is it?


"Most studies show that every 10 degree increase over 85 degrees F leads to a whopping 40% reduction in your equipment’s life span."

That doesn't necessarily conflict with the above if the knee curve is at high enough use hours.


Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 55838054)
Actual heat output is based upon the following:...


noears is correct - heat output is exactly equal to heat input (after temp equilibrium is reached).

You may be confusing temp with heat flow.

Heat flow is analogous to current flow, so that if the thermal resistance is higher (i.e. less heat sink area), it takes a greater temp difference (analogous to voltage) to drive the heat through the thermal resistance.


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