Need recommendations for receiver/amplifier for a 9.2.6 setup - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 37 Old 03-26-2018, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Need recommendations for receiver/amplifier for a 9.2.6 setup

Hello

I’m sure I went about this in the wrong sequence but I have the below speakers so far. I wired the room for 9.2.6 and looking for some help on recommendations for a receiver/amplifier.

Projector: JVC RS400u
LCR: DIYSG 1099 (3)
Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD (2)
Side Surround in columns: Volt 8 v2 (4) - yet to buy
Back Surround in columns: Volt 8 v2 (2) - yet to buy
Atmos in Ceiling: RSL C34e or Volt 8 v2 (6) - yet to buy

Is the latest receiver from Denon (x8500) the simplest/best option? I don’t mind having to buy separates if it saves money and potentially better performance but I’m clueless as to what to look for when doing separates.

If I left out anything that would help with the recommendations, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.



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Last edited by bubbrik; 03-26-2018 at 04:54 PM.
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post #2 of 37 Old 03-26-2018, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hello

I’m sure I went about this in the wrong sequence but I have the below speakers so far. I wired the room for 9.2.6 and looking for some help on recommendations for a receiver/amplifier.

Projector: JVC RS400u
LCR: DIYSG 1099 (3)
Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD (2)
Side Surround: RSL C34e or Volt 8 v2 (4) - yet to buy
Back Surround: RSL C34e or Volt 8 v2 (2) - yet to buy
Atmos in Ceiling: RSL C34e or Volt 8 v2 (6) - yet to buy

Is the latest receiver from Denon (x8500) the simplest/best option? I don’t mind having to buy separates if it saves money and potentially better performance but I’m clueless as to what to look for when doing separates.

If I left out anything that would help with the recommendations, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.
First things first - in-ceiling surrounds and Atmos not a recommended combination - you really want to separate the two layers. Any way you can do that?

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #3 of 37 Old 03-26-2018, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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The side and back surrounds are going to be in columns. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I’ll edit my post.


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post #4 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
The side and back surrounds are going to be in columns. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I’ll edit my post.
Ah, very good!

As to the matter of separates; it can be looked at as a strategy. Good quality amps are going to last you a long time and not change so much. What changes much more rapidly is the technology in the displays and receivers/processors. Up front, separates are likely to cost you more. But in the long run (especially if you like to keep up with the latest and greatest), then a good processor might end up being less expensive. "Simply" swap out the processor.

A pure receiver is obviously the simplest, and takes up the least amount of space if that is a concern. Likely the least expensive option up front. However, a receiver may or may not be enough to drive a particular system, at least not in full. And looks like you've got two channels driving 4 speakers, which may or may not place an additional burden on the receiver. I'll let somebody else address that, not something I've done, or am familiar with wiring, wouldn't want to give you wrong info.

Another option - a good solid amp 2Ch. or 3Ch. to drive at least the front L/R, possibly L/R/C - an in between, but not at all a compromise. Plenty of power to the three speakers that really need it - leaving you ample reserve for the remaining speakers on the receiver's amps.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #5 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hello

I’m sure I went about this in the wrong sequence but I have the below speakers so far. I wired the room for 9.2.6 and looking for some help on recommendations for a receiver/amplifier.

Projector: JVC RS400u
LCR: DIYSG 1099 (3)
Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD (2)
Side Surround in columns: Volt 8 v2 (4) - yet to buy
Back Surround in columns: Volt 8 v2 (2) - yet to buy
Atmos in Ceiling: RSL C34e or Volt 8 v2 (6) - yet to buy

Is the latest receiver from Denon (x8500) the simplest/best option? I don’t mind having to buy separates if it saves money and potentially better performance but I’m clueless as to what to look for when doing separates.

If I left out anything that would help with the recommendations, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.



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If you really want 9.2.6 and you want to do it correctly, you'll need a 16 channel processor at a minimum and separate amplifiers. As far as I know, no one makes a 16 channel AV receiver at this time.

But, there are 16 channel pre-pros available. Take a look at the Lyngdorf Audio MP-50, Datasat LS10, Storm Audio ISP 3D.16 ELITE, Trinnov Altitude AL32-816, Acurus ACT 4, or maybe the soon to be released ATI ATP16.

Emotiva is supposed to release the Emotiva RMC-1 at some point. Also, Bryston is partnering with Storm Audio and is releasing the Bryston SP4 scheduled to be available in the second quarter of 2018. The Bryston SP4 is 16.2 channels and is supposed to be expandable to 20.2.
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post #6 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
If you really want 9.2.6 and you want to do it correctly, you'll need a 16 channel processor at a minimum and separate amplifiers. As far as I know, no one makes a 16 channel AV receiver at this time.
It's actually a 7.1.6 system tat bubbrik is assembling - the side surrounds are doubled up. Unless I'm misunderstanding what bubbrik is trying to do....The Denon will do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6, so the processing should be there.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #7 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Need recommendations for receiver/amplifier for a 9.2.6 setup

My layout (wiring) is similar to Dolby 9.1.6 layout that @b curry posted above, although my angels didn’t match to the prescribed due to limitations in my room.

Thanks for the feedback so far. I’ll have to read it again to follow (sorry, I’m new to these tech terms) and respond.


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post #8 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
It's actually a 7.1.6 system tat bubbrik is assembling - the side surrounds are doubled up. Unless I'm misunderstanding what bubbrik is trying to do....The Denon will do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6, so the processing should be there.
Well, I suppose it could be as you suggest. But then that would beg the question as to how to double up the surrounds; series/parallel wiring for that channels amplifier, or separate amplifiers for each and split the pre-out signal...

And then there's the question of room correction. If you run room correction the distance/time delay/volume will be incorrect for at least two of the surround channels if you double them as you suggest.

If one is going to the trouble to install a 9.2.6 speaker array, I not sure why you limit yourself to 9.1.4 or 7.1.6?

He has the makings of 7 bed channels, 2 front wide/height speakers left and right, 6 overhead Atmos speaker positions and 2 sub-woofer positions. As I said, if you really want 9.1.6/9.2.6 you have 16 discreet channels and you will need a 16 channel processor.

The Denon unit is 13.1 channels. If that's what he's using, then you're right he has a choice of 9.1.4 or 7.1.6
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post #9 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 02:40 PM
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Well, I suppose it could be as you suggest. But then that would beg the question as to how to double up the surrounds; series/parallel wiring for that channels amplifier, or separate amplifiers for each and split the pre-out signal...

And then there's the question of room correction. If you run room correction the distance/time delay/volume will be incorrect for at least two of the surround channels if you double them as you suggest.

If one is going to the trouble to install a 9.2.6 speaker array, I not sure why you limit yourself to 9.1.4 or 7.1.6?

He has the makings of 7 bed channels, 2 front wide/height speakers left and right, 6 overhead Atmos speaker positions and 2 sub-woofer positions. As I said, if you really want 9.1.6/9.2.6 you have 16 discreet channels and you will need a 16 channel processor.

The Denon unit is 13.1 channels. If that's what he's using, then you're right he has a choice of 9.1.4 or 7.1.6
I'm just going off of what was written by OP in the first post; side surrounds, QTY. of 4, in columns....yeah, how one wires for that is above my pay grade.

Yes, the EQ could be interesting. I suppose within either channel if the speakers are equidistant to the MLP, it might not be an issue, otherwise, not sure how the receiver would interpret this? 2 speakers playing at once with test tones might not work, I just don't know enough about it.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #10 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
I'm just going off of what was written by OP in the first post; side surrounds, QTY. of 4, in columns....yeah, how one wires for that is above my pay grade.

Yes, the EQ could be interesting. I suppose within either channel if the speakers are equidistant to the MLP, it might not be an issue, otherwise, not sure how the receiver would interpret this? 2 speakers playing at once with test tones might not work, I just don't know enough about it.
Not wishing to be pedantic, but going off of the first post, the OP called out 9.2.6. The first digit references the number of traditional surround speakers, the second digit references the number of (usually powered) sub-woofers, and the third digit references the number of Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, or Auro-3D speakers. The three numbers summed equals the number of discreet channels supported. And that's how you get to 16 channels relative to the OP's question. Increasingly, processors supporting more channels are becoming available. The problem with AVR's adding more channels is how many amplifiers you can practically stuff into the box. Class D type amplifiers have help but there is a practical limit.

The point of surrounds is to have controlled front to back, back to front, and side to side pans as well as discreet sound cue placement. The addition of Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, or Auro-3D combined with traditional surrounds brings the possibility of object-oriented/object-based audio with 3D placement. If a pair of surrounds are not calibrated relative to a reference point, the MLP, the sound stage can/will collapse and you can end up with just a bunch of speakers making noise.
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post #11 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi @b curry and @Jonas2

I currently do not have a receiver/amplifier. I’m still in the process of building my room - getting close, thanks to all the help from friends on this forum.

The room is wired for a 9.2.6 setup. I attached a drawing I just put together (not showing the subwoofers). I hope this helps.



Thanks


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post #12 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 03:33 PM
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so are you planning to run it as a 9.x.6 (with something like the Lyngdorf, Trinkow, or
RMC) or planning something different?
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post #13 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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so are you planning to run it as a 9.x.6 (with something like the Lyngdorf, Trinkow, or

RMC) or planning something different?


Hi @madhuski
I’ll be frank and say that I didn’t really plan for the electronics yet. Since I was wiring from scratch, I went with this setup. It looks like this 9.x.6 setup is both complex and crazy expensive. This is my first foray into HT and if it will be better to go with 7.x.4 excluding S3/S4 and A5/A6, I could go that route. I’m looking for guidance.

Thanks


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post #14 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hi @madhuski
I’ll be frank and say that I didn’t really plan for the electronics yet. Since I was wiring from scratch, I went with this setup. It looks like this 9.x.6 setup is both complex and crazy expensive. This is my first foray into HT and if it will be better to go with 7.x.4 excluding S3/S4 and A5/A6, I could go that route. I’m looking for guidance.

Thanks


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I think there are some spliced setups using multiple AVR's to run 9.x.6, but I think otherwise to do it you need a pretty expensive processor. I think the 10k Lyngdorf is the cheapest that can do it, with the 5k (?vaporware) RMC being the cheapest on the horizon.

It would certainly be cheaper just to do a 7.x.6 or 9.x.4 right now
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post #15 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hi @b curry and @Jonas2

I currently do not have a receiver/amplifier. I’m still in the process of building my room - getting close, thanks to all the help from friends on this forum.

The room is wired for a 9.2.6 setup. I attached a drawing I just put together (not showing the subwoofers). I hope this helps.



Thanks


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It's really quite simple from my view point.

If you want to keep the speaker array as you've called out, you need electronics to support it and that's a minimum of a 16 channel processor and amplifiers.

If you want to use the Denon AVR-X8500H or something like it, you will need to scale back to 9.1.4 or 7.1.4. In other words a 13.1 AVR.

If you're using the Denon AVR-X8500H or something like it, I would suggest a 9.1.4 configuration. You could use the S3, S4 as front heights, left/right. Four ceiling Atmos channels should be fine.

I will be willing to bet the farm that you will use the Denon AVR-X8500H or something like it. No offence, but from your dialogue here, you've walked into this with your eyes closed. I'm afraid that you're going to be in for a vary serious shock when you put together the total price for 16 channels of electronics to support 9.2.6.

Edit: Re-thinking, use positions A6 and A5 as front height channels. Drop the S3, S4 speakers.
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post #16 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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@b curry no offence taken. I was traveling blind in many parts of my build but learned much through out - made some expensive mistakes and some silly ones. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. It is clear that I wired the room for more than what I can afford.

I don’t think I can afford a $10K processor. @madhuski is splicing with multiple AVRs worth exploring? If not, I’ll take the simplified route.


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post #17 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
@b curry no offence taken. I was traveling blind in many parts of my build but learned much through out - made some expensive mistakes and some silly ones. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. It is clear that I wired the room for more than what I can afford.

I don’t think I can afford a $10K processor. @madhuski is splicing with multiple AVRs worth exploring? If not, I’ll take the simplified route.


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i’m not families with how exactly it’s done.

personally, i’d just stick with traditional avr or pre/amp
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post #18 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 05:28 PM
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@b curry no offence taken. I was traveling blind in many parts of my build but learned much through out - made some expensive mistakes and some silly ones. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. It is clear that I wired the room for more than what I can afford.

I don’t think I can afford a $10K processor. @madhuski is splicing with multiple AVRs worth exploring? If not, I’ll take the simplified route.


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I would advise you not to use multiple AVR's. You could run into a video/sound sync problem, you have to split any input signal, and you're going to need two AVR's anyhow. Just put your money into a 13.1 channel unit.

I don't know how big your room is but I'm quite sure you'll be very impressed with a properly installed, well done 9.1.4 configuration.

Keep in mind, most movies are still released in 5.1. Titles with Atmos and 7.1 are still in the minority.
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post #19 of 37 Old 03-27-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hi @b curry and @Jonas2

I currently do not have a receiver/amplifier. I’m still in the process of building my room - getting close, thanks to all the help from friends on this forum.

The room is wired for a 9.2.6 setup. I attached a drawing I just put together (not showing the subwoofers). I hope this helps.
So, what I see as you've laid it out is a 7.x.6 system, with 4 speakers on two discrete channels (sides). You can do it this way, like I mentioned before, above my pay grade, but you can research this. The receiver itself won't likely be adequate to amplify in this way, so you'd drive with a separate amp I'm betting.

Yeah, this is a more complex setup, so you might want to bump off one of those pairs and just keep the standard 2 speakers for side surround duty for simplicity's sake.

But we haven't asked you yet (or I missed it) - how many rows of seating are you planning, and what are the dimensions of your space?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
@b curry no offence taken. I was traveling blind in many parts of my build but learned much through out - made some expensive mistakes and some silly ones. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. It is clear that I wired the room for more than what I can afford.
Well, maybe more than you can afford up front - does not mean you can't do this in stages as your budget allows.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post

I don’t think I can afford a $10K processor.
I'd say wire up the speakers in a 9.1.6 configuration as if you had the processing power (there is only one LFE channel no matter how many subs you use, so the x.2.x is really a Dolby misnomer). Then pick up a Denon X6300 in the $1k range and run 7.1.4 unless you really want to spend an extra $3k for for the Denon Flagship to run two more discrete channels. Then, wait for two to three years for the processing power to go up while the price comes down and just add a 9.1.6 processor then.

My 2 cents.
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post #21 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbrik View Post
Hi @b curry and @Jonas2

I currently do not have a receiver/amplifier. I’m still in the process of building my room - getting close, thanks to all the help from friends on this forum.

The room is wired for a 9.2.6 setup. I attached a drawing I just put together (not showing the subwoofers). I hope this helps.



Thanks
I would recommend that you drop the S3/S4 speakers unless you are doing 3 rows of seating in a very large room. If you only have 1 row of seating, the extra side surround speakers are not necessary. Even with 2 rows of seating, with proper placement, you can still make one set of side surrounds work great. This will the drop you down to a 7.x.6 arrangement which the Denon AVR-X8500 will handle natively or if you really wanted to go separates now, the Marantz AV8805 will also handle 7.2.6 natively. As @jjackkrash recommended, I would still go ahead and wire up for 9.x.6 since it is easier now than later, but instead of channels 8 & 9 being a second set of side surrounds, I would make them Front Wide speakers. This is the setup that many of us here have decided is the 'goldilocks zone' of immersive audio in home theater. Many have said that, given the limitation of doing surround back speakers or front wide speakers, they prefer the wides as they believe it provides greater sonic benefits. Front Wides and surround back speakers is the icing on the cake. As for overhead atmos speakers, many say 4 is enough. However several of us with larger spaces (myself included) want to go with 6 atmos channels. So take the 6 atmos channels, add in the front wides and the surround back channels, and 9.x.6 is pretty much the holy grail of surround sound and if you want to get there eventually then wire for it now. Just understand that you are either going to have to put down a large chunk of money on a processor to get 9.x.6 now, or you are going to have to compromise with a 9.x.4 or 7.x.6 system now but for much less money. Only you can decide that.

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post #22 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 09:02 AM
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LOL, OP I can't help but think that you would of gotten better answers and less confusion if you just listed your config as a 7.1.6 system and then just asked how to amplify the side channels because you will be using 4 speakers.

I used an older Denon AVP that could wire two sets of side channel and they state to disable one set while running room correction.
I did not look at your wiring but both ways will work. If you are running 2 speakers off one amp make sure it's stable to 4 Ohms or get a 4 channel amp. Your Speaker distance will always be the closest speakers to the main LP.

Get a 7.1.6 AVR and run external amps for the front 3 channels and the side channel.
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post #23 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 01:16 PM
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LOL, OP I can't help but think that you would of gotten better answers and less confusion if you just listed your config as a 7.1.6 system and then just asked how to amplify the side channels because you will be using 4 speakers.

I used an older Denon AVP that could wire two sets of side channel and they state to disable one set while running room correction.
I did not look at your wiring but both ways will work. If you are running 2 speakers off one amp make sure it's stable to 4 Ohms or get a 4 channel amp. Your Speaker distance will always be the closest speakers to the main LP.Get a 7.1.6 AVR and run external amps for the front 3 channels and the side channel.


What was the model number of your older Denon AVR? I would be interested to see or understand the explanation or the logic Denon has used as to how running two sets of side channels and disabling one set for setting up room correction.

Denon has only used Audyssey room correction in their AVR's. The Audyssey correction algorithm works primarily in a time domain using multiple microphone measurement positions to determine direct sound and delay/room reflections. FIR filters are generated for corrections in both time and frequency domains.

Audyssey sets distance using the first microphone position and the speaker with the furthest distance from the mic as a reference. Appropriate delay is applied to all of the discreet speakers/channels closer to the first mic position with the furthermost speaker as the reference.

So, you're saying, if you disable one set of surrounds, run RC, and then turn on the second set of surrounds you would in effect be applying the RC setting of the initial RC measurements to the second set of surrounds, correct?

This is interesting because if I take into account how Audyssey works, generates and applies correction filters, the second set of surrounds would now have filters applied that were generated for a completely different discreet room location, time delay, room reflections/reverberations and decay.

In addition, since this procedure has essentially created a mirror image of the first set of surrounds in a different location, there is the possibility of phase cancellation.

Did this older Denon have discreet amplifiers for the extra side surrounds or just an extra set of binding posts for connection? If it was an extra set of binding posts, then the connection was summed as series or parallel for that channels surround amplifier. Which means when you enable the second set of surrounds the amplifier would see a different impermanence load which would affecting the volume levels for both locations relative to the RC settings.

As I've never seen this done by Denon, or any one else for that matter. So it would be great if you could share to model number of the Denon AVR you used.

The last time I've seen something done as you suggest was back in the 1980's with Dolby Surround on VHS/Betamax where there was a right, left, and surround channel and Dolby Pro Logic with a right, left, center, and surround channel. Both systems used mono surround channels and it was somewhat common to daisy chain additional surrounds. Of course there was no room correction available from anyone. Dolby Pro Logic used 'Steering Logic' driving the AVR's amplifiers to raise or lower the output volume of each channel. This seems to me to be closer to what you're describing in the older Denon.
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I'd say wire up the speakers in a 9.1.6 configuration as if you had the processing power (there is only one LFE channel no matter how many subs you use, so the x.2.x is really a Dolby misnomer). Then pick up a Denon X6300 in the $1k range and run 7.1.4 unless you really want to spend an extra $3k for for the Denon Flagship to run two more discrete channels. Then, wait for two to three years for the processing power to go up while the price comes down and just add a 9.1.6 processor then.



My 2 cents.


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I would recommend that you drop the S3/S4 speakers unless you are doing 3 rows of seating in a very large room. If you only have 1 row of seating, the extra side surround speakers are not necessary. Even with 2 rows of seating, with proper placement, you can still make one set of side surrounds work great. This will the drop you down to a 7.x.6 arrangement which the Denon AVR-X8500 will handle natively or if you really wanted to go separates now, the Marantz AV8805 will also handle 7.2.6 natively. As @jjackkrash recommended, I would still go ahead and wire up for 9.x.6 since it is easier now than later, but instead of channels 8 & 9 being a second set of side surrounds, I would make them Front Wide speakers. This is the setup that many of us here have decided is the 'goldilocks zone' of immersive audio in home theater. Many have said that, given the limitation of doing surround back speakers or front wide speakers, they prefer the wides as they believe it provides greater sonic benefits. Front Wides and surround back speakers is the icing on the cake. As for overhead atmos speakers, many say 4 is enough. However several of us with larger spaces (myself included) want to go with 6 atmos channels. So take the 6 atmos channels, add in the front wides and the surround back channels, and 9.x.6 is pretty much the holy grail of surround sound and if you want to get there eventually then wire for it now. Just understand that you are either going to have to put down a large chunk of money on a processor to get 9.x.6 now, or you are going to have to compromise with a 9.x.4 or 7.x.6 system now but for much less money. Only you can decide that.

Thank you @jjackkrash and @esappy
Given that this is my first time getting into HT, I’ll go for the simpler route with one that is in the $1K range with 7.x.4 and still wire the two extra atmos and the two wides for future use.

My room is 24’Lx14’Wx7’5”H. I plan to have one row and one spillover row with removable seating as the primary usage is one row. The S1 and S2 are placed in between the two rows.

Question: what is the difference between the second set of surrounds and wides? Is it based on their location or assigning them as wides in a receiver that explicitly supports wides or both?



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post #25 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 04:20 PM
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it was the Denon AVP-A1HDCI .

After reading the manual again it does not say to disable the second set. I was mistaken. I don't know were I got that from.
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Question: what is the difference between the second set of surrounds and wides?
Wides would be supported by the AVR depending on the AVR you chose. Front wide/height speakers are discreet channels that can be supported with metadata from an authored Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray.

An extra set of side surrounds will most likely will not be supported unless the AVR specifically says that it supports it.

The 16 channel processors that I referenced will or could support the extra side channels. The 16 channel and higher processors typically offer the ability to replicate a discreet channel for assessment. In this way you can add additional surround channels and retain control over them for Atmos execution. In this case the extra channel would be discreet, receive side channel information, and be calibrated for its specific location.

The typical 9.1.4 or below AVR's will not and are not typically designed to do the reassignment for side surrounds as it's not part of the Dolby spec and at that level of hardware, it's impracticable. Some AVR's in this range will allow you to select front or rear surrounds for assignment.
wide
If you chose to implement the extra side surrounds as other's have suggested, wiring series or parallel to the side surrounds, you will have problems with room correction implementation and the Atmos "bubble" will not be as immersive. Atmos and object-oriented audio is about discreet channels not matrixed sound. Daisy chaining side surrounds is 1980's home theater audio. But, it's your decision.


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Is it based on their location or assigning them as wides in a receiver that explicitly supports wides or both?
It's both. The wide/height and Atmos speakers are designed to work with the bed speakers (5.1/7.1) to create an immersive 360° bubble of sound around you. As I said in an earlier post this is object-oriented audio. With the correct speaker location and careful setup with room correction, Dolby Atmos has the ability to create or project a sound cues in front, behind, above, below, or anywhere inside the bubble. In other words, Atmos setup done wright can project sound on 3 axis, X,Y,andZ.

Dolby Atmos in a commercial installation can support up to 128 audio tracks/channels with 64 speakers. Dolby Atmos for home can support 24.1.10, or 35 channels. There are home theater processors that are available now that support up to 32 channels. They cost around $30,000 and you need 32 amplifiers to go with it.

You should also understand that the metadata for Atmos is mixed into the audio presentation to match the installed speaker configuration. This is also true for DTS:X and Auro-3D. Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray discs must be encoded with the necessary metadata before you will hear the extra speakers. So if the sound engineer mixed audio to come from front wide/heights and you've mounted them on the side of the room...

Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray discs are authored/encoded as 5.1 and 7.1. The disc's will have to be furthered authored to support Atmos, DTS:X, and Auro-3D before your AVR will support the object-based mix. In other words if Atmos is not on the disc, it's not going to be coming our of your speaker.


Your plan to go 7.1.4 is more or less a minimum for Atmos.

You might want to spend some time reading about Dolby Atmos as you can get the information from the horses mouth vs. opinions on a forum: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...tup/index.html

You're investing some money, might as well do it correct.
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post #27 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 04:42 PM
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it was the Denon AVP-A1HDCI .

After reading the manual again it does not say to disable the second set. I was mistaken. I don't know were I got that from.
Thank's

I could not rationalize what you were suggesting with the way it works.


EDIT: Your Denon AVP-A1HDCI processor was state of the art in its day. I looked through the manual and the 9.1 configuration does offer support for 2 additional discreet side surround channels. So the processor would support 9 discreet channels and required 9 amplifiers. Audyssey would run on discreet channels for the extra side surround channels. This tics and ties with what I said earlier.

I don't know of any current AVR's or 13.1 or less process that would support this kind of configuration available today.

Thanks again for posting the model number.

Last edited by b curry; 03-28-2018 at 07:21 PM.
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Question: what is the difference between the second set of surrounds and wides? Is it based on their location or assigning them as wides in a receiver that explicitly supports wides or both?
So @b curry nailed it overall, but I wanted to expand just a little more. As stated the purpose of Atmos is to truly envelope you in full 360 degree sound not only on the horizontal (ear level) plane but also from above you as well. Dolby decided that this means that in the home environment this equates to a maximum speaker count of 24.1.10. With 24 speakers on the horizontal plane (aka the bed layer) this means that you would have speakers evenly spaced in 15 degree increments (24x15=360). So assuming that you start with the center channel dead center (0 degrees), your front speakers would be 15 degrees to each side, then the next set would be another 15 degrees to either side for 30 degrees, next set at 45 degrees, etc. Now depending on who you talk to, this is way overkill. In fact, there are some people who are perfectly happy with only 2 speakers for watching movies and that's great if that is what makes you happy. There are many people on this forum and elsewhere who believe that 5.1 is perfect for surround sound. There are also some who think that 5.1 still leaves holes in the audio due to the spacing between the front and rear speakers. The "standard", if you will, for the front speakers is to be between 22.5 to 30 degrees from center. This will create a triangle between the left and right speakers and you at the main listening position of 45 to 60 degrees (the latter creating that magical equilateral triangle) from the main listening position. The surround speakers are then placed anywhere from 90 degrees from center (which is directly to the side of you) to about 135 degrees (which then has the speaker 45 degrees behind you. When set up properly this can make quite a satisfying surround experience and has been the standard for decades. More recently (early 2000's) it was decided that another set of surround speakers were needed and thus 7.1 was born. A few years later, some audio companies experimented with adding in the front wide channels, because the idea is that humans are more sensitive to sounds that are coming from in front of than behind them and we would benefit from having speakers a little closer together up front to make a more cohesive sound stage. There are many people that agreed and swear that the addition of front wide speakers was much more beneficial than the additional surround speakers. Unfortunately, the wide speakers pretty much disappeared from receivers and processors in the last few years. But now that Atmos is available (as well as the DTS equivalent, DTS-X, and to a lesser degree, Auro sound), and the fact that newer, more powerful DSP's are hitting the streets, the wides are starting to make a comeback (though apparently with some limitations currently) and we are also able to have both side and rear surrounds as well. Now trying to figure out the overhead speakers is a little different matter. For starters, humans aren't quite as sensitive to sounds from above. Also, since this is still a new format, sound engineers for the movies are still just figuring it out and not all Atmos tracks are created equal (partly due to simply artistic choices made by the director). Another issue is going to be with ceiling height. The lower the ceiling, the harder it is to integrate overhead surrounds and not having them so close to your head that they constantly draw attention to themselves. With your 7.5ft high ceilings, you may find that 4 overheads will be plenty. Starting out with 7.1.4 will be great but I would still go ahead and wire up for 6 overheads now and if you end up not using them, no big deal. I still personally think that 9.x.6 is pretty much the holy grail of surround sound and am working my way up to that myself and would certainly recommend pre-wiring for that if you have any notion that you might end up there eventually. Easier to do it all at once and be done with it than to retrofit it later. Sorry if I got too wordy in there. I hope that wasn't too much gibberish and made some sense.

For the 9.1.6 layout per Dolby's recommendation go here: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup-guide.html

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post #29 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 11:35 PM
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Wides would be supported by the AVR depending on the AVR you chose. Front wide/height speakers are discreet channels that can be supported with metadata from an authored Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray.

An extra set of side surrounds will most likely will not be supported unless the AVR specifically says that it supports it.

The 16 channel processors that I referenced will or could support the extra side channels. The 16 channel and higher processors typically offer the ability to replicate a discreet channel for assessment. In this way you can add additional surround channels and retain control over them for Atmos execution. In this case the extra channel would be discreet, receive side channel information, and be calibrated for its specific location.

The typical 9.1.4 or below AVR's will not and are not typically designed to do the reassignment for side surrounds as it's not part of the Dolby spec and at that level of hardware, it's impracticable. Some AVR's in this range will allow you to select front or rear surrounds for assignment.
1. Or when using the DTS Neural:X simulator.
2. The past few Denon "flagship" models (to include the current X8500H) have the capability to reassign most of the on board amps to any speaker such that a 2nd or even 3rd set of "side" surrounds can be configured.


Quote:
Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray discs are authored/encoded as 5.1 and 7.1. The disc's will have to be furthered authored to support Atmos, DTS:X, and Auro-3D before your AVR will support the object-based mix. In other words if Atmos is not on the disc, it's not going to be coming our of your speaker.
Although audio would be "coming out" if one of the simulators (Dolby Surround, DTS Neural:X, or AuroMatic) is used noting there are some limitations (ie. only DTS Neural:X will simulate to Front Wide speakers).
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post #30 of 37 Old 03-28-2018, 11:41 PM
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Is the latest receiver from Denon (x8500) the simplest/best option? I don’t mind having to buy separates if it saves money and potentially better performance but I’m clueless as to what to look for when doing separates.
The 2018 Denon X8500H and Marantz AV8805 pre/pro are the only 2016 or newer "major brand" (ie. < $10k) models that support Front Wide speakers; however, the 2015 Denon X7200WA can support 7.1.4 with an external amp and configure the forward surrounds as either Front Wide or the second set of side surrounds as another set of "side surrounds" as I discuss in the above post.
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