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post #31 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 12:25 PM
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....or you can get a AVR that has independent amps for each channel built in and is not watts limited, it is only power supply limited.



A AVR that does 100 watts per channel into 2 channels is a 200 watt AVR, a AVR that will do 100 watts a chanel but sustain 500 watts is different.

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post #32 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 01:07 PM
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can you give me an example of one?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
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post #33 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 01:12 PM
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FWIW, my theater room is 15' x 27' & I've got 120W/ch for the mains, center & sides, and 100W/ch for the rears. The speakers are about 88 dB. It's louder than my wife will allow & if she's out it'll go load enough to leave the ears ringing after a movie. In other word, it's has more power than I ever use. That being said, there are certain passages in movies that I can tell could use a little more power.
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post #34 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
can you give me an example of one?

This is just a example I found quickly so others exist cheaper.

My brother just picked up a used one for 100 bucks that does the same thing.


https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ivers/SC-LX901

High-Power Simultaneous Multi-Channel Drive
With Class AB amplifiers, driving all channels at full power is only possible for a short time, at around 300 W to 400 W power output. The SC-LX901’s Class D3 Amplifier has the ability to simultaneously drive 11-channels at 850 W power output, while efficiently delivering dynamic content.


For example my receiver is 135 watts per channel into 2 channels , so 270 or so watts max divided into its 7 channels or 38 watts per channel with all channels driven max.


In the linked example it would be 850 into 11 channels at 77 watts per channel.

So just for easy math consider it to have double the watts per channel as mine, which is not a big deal as pointed out that equates into 3db louder......which is little to no difference really.


Mine which can only put out a max of 38 watts per channel with all channels driven runs my system to ear blistering levels.

3 front large 15 inch woofered 3 ways and 4 additional dual 6.5 inch woofered speakers. , so 7 speakers total.

The fronts are rated at 225 watts rms and the other 4 are 175 watts rms .


So I could feed them 1250 watts rms or 178 watts per channel , instead of the 38 they get now, which would only result in approx. 6 db more volume.


Take your current receiver if it has a volume dial that starts in the negative and goes up towards 0 as it gets louder and adjust it up and down 6 to get a idea of what little of a difference 6 db is.


Say your speakers at 90db at one watt .....2 watts would be 93, 4 watts 96, 8 watts 99, 16 watts 102, 32 watts 105db, 64 watts 108 db, 128 watts 111db , 256 watts 114db, 512 watts 117db..........which has far exceeded my speaker ratings at 225 watts per channel and at only 32 watts per channel in this approx. example is already at reference volume, which is crazy loud in a small house sized room.


I have my system calibrated for reference at 0 on the volume, I listen at -12 to -16 most of the time, which is still pretty loud. So -12 from reference of 105 db is 93 db which takes 2 watts on a 90 db per watt speaker. So for example purposes I would be using 2 watts most of the time to watch a movie pretty loud out of a available 38 watts for each speaker.


Moral of the story.... Most normal 100 watt per channel into 2 channels at 8ohms and abover recivers will power most speakers well above normal listening levels. Unless you have horrible speakers and like it as loud as a rock concert, then the AVR will be fine for most situations.


In my room at -12 on the AVR playing a bluray it is pretty loud, like most sane people would tell you to turn it down please which is reached using a couple of watts .


The subject goes way deeper than this, but for a teaching example this covers the basics when applied to how many watts do I need.


My receiver which is capable of a max of 270 watts will play louder than most people can tolerate and well into the permanent hearing damage levels .....my speakers are rated at a max of 116db which is way louder than ever needed in my room..........db also drops with distance, so if I were max powering these at 116db on 175 watts, then it would fill a rather large room where one might get at distances of up to 50 feet away or no one would be closer than 25 feet or so to the speakers. In small sized home room not many would tolerate 116 db for long, it sounds like the music is inside your head at that level and not being heard.


Sound that is radiated from a point source drops in level at 6dB per doubling of distance. If you start at 50 feet from the source and move to 100 feet from the source you will have a 6dB drop in level. If you move from 500 feet to 1000 feet, you will have a 6dB drop in level.


So in our AVR example if we apply distance to it, most speakers are rated at one meter or 3 feet....so we lose 6db at 6 feet and another 6 db at 12 feet etc etc. I sit approx. 9 feet from the speakers , in my example or my room it is 93 db at 3 feet from the speaker and 87 db at 6 feet and 81 db at 12 feet. So I am getting approx. 82.5 db at my ears off of a couple watts, which as mentioned is pretty loud.


In a full distance example as above at reference of 105 db which is 32 watts on a 90db per watt speaker, we are at 99db at 6 feet from the speaker and 93 db at 12 feet from the speaker, or 94.5 db 9 feet away in my room and at reference , which I probably like levels way louder than one should or most will listen at, and I can not take reference for a entire movie and a lot of guests still want me to turn it down when listening at 12 db below reference.


This information above is for example purposes and is ruff and leaves out many aspects which effect things such as driver sizes, what hz numbers it is measured out etc etc etc.............but should give you a fairly basic concept of how many watts do I need and why 20 watts per channel difference on a AVR receiver is pretty much meaningless....100....120....135 per channel amounts to pretty much nothing difference wise in a AVRs wattage performance . Even a large difference of say doubling the power from 135 to 270 watts per channel only gets a 3db difference.

Move your AVR`s volume up and down 3 numbers and see what that amounts to, so even a 270 watt VS a 135 watt per channel receiver is still fairly meaningless, which is why recievers in the 100 to 135 watt range are for all wattage/volume comparisons no different.

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post #35 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
This is just a example I found quickly so others exist cheaper.

My brother just picked up a used one for 100 bucks that does the same thing.


https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ivers/SC-LX901

High-Power Simultaneous Multi-Channel Drive
With Class AB amplifiers, driving all channels at full power is only possible for a short time, at around 300 W to 400 W power output. The SC-LX901’s Class D3 Amplifier has the ability to simultaneously drive 11-channels at 850 W power output, while efficiently delivering dynamic content.


For example my receiver is 135 watts per channel into 2 channels , so 270 or so watts max divided into its 7 channels or 38 watts per channel with all channels driven max.


In the linked example it would be 850 into 11 channels at 77 watts per channel.

So just for easy math consider it to have double the watts per channel as mine, which is not a big deal as pointed out that equates into 3db louder......which is little to no difference really.


Mine which can only put out a max of 38 watts per channel with all channels driven runs my system to ear blistering levels.

3 front large 15 inch woofered 3 ways and 4 additional dual 6.5 inch woofered speakers. , so 7 speakers total.

The fronts are rated at 225 watts rms and the other 4 are 175 watts rms .


So I could feed them 1250 watts rms or 178 watts per channel , instead of the 38 they get now, which would only result in approx. 6 db more volume.


Take your current receiver if it has a volume dial that starts in the negative and goes up towards 0 as it gets louder and adjust it up and down 6 to get a idea of what little of a difference 6 db is.


Say your speakers at 90db at one watt .....2 watts would be 93, 4 watts 96, 8 watts 99, 16 watts 102, 32 watts 105db, 64 watts 108 db, 128 watts 111db , 256 watts 114db, 512 watts 117db..........which has far exceeded my speaker ratings at 225 watts per channel and at only 32 watts per channel in this approx. example is already at reference volume, which is crazy loud in a small house sized room.


I have my system calibrated for reference at 0 on the volume, I listen at -12 to -16 most of the time, which is still pretty loud. So -12 from reference of 105 db is 93 db which takes 2 watts on a 90 db per watt speaker. So for example purposes I would be using 2 watts most of the time to watch a movie pretty loud out of a available 38 watts for each speaker.


Moral of the story.... Most normal 100 watt per channel into 2 channels at 8ohms and abover recivers will power most speakers well above normal listening levels. Unless you have horrible speakers and like it as loud as a rock concert, then the AVR will be fine for most situations.


In my room at -12 on the AVR playing a bluray it is pretty loud, like most sane people would tell you to turn it down please which is reached using a couple of watts .


The subject goes way deeper than this, but for a teaching example this covers the basics when applied to how many watts do I need.


My receiver which is capable of a max of 270 watts will play louder than most people can tolerate and well into the permanent hearing damage levels .....my speakers are rated at a max of 116db which is way louder than ever needed in my room..........db also drops with distance, so if I were max powering these at 116db on 175 watts, then it would fill a rather large room where one might get at distances of up to 50 feet away or no one would be closer than 25 feet or so to the speakers. In small sized home room not many would tolerate 116 db for long, it sounds like the music is inside your head at that level and not being heard.


Sound that is radiated from a point source drops in level at 6dB per doubling of distance. If you start at 50 feet from the source and move to 100 feet from the source you will have a 6dB drop in level. If you move from 500 feet to 1000 feet, you will have a 6dB drop in level.


So in our AVR example if we apply distance to it, most speakers are rated at one meter or 3 feet....so we lose 6db at 6 feet and another 6 db at 12 feet etc etc. I sit approx. 9 feet from the speakers , in my example or my room it is 93 db at 3 feet from the speaker and 87 db at 6 feet and 81 db at 12 feet. So I am getting approx. 82.5 db at my ears off of a couple watts, which as mentioned is pretty loud.


In a full distance example as above at reference of 105 db which is 32 watts on a 90db per watt speaker, we are at 99db at 6 feet from the speaker and 93 db at 12 feet from the speaker, or 94.5 db 9 feet away in my room and at reference , which I probably like levels way louder than one should or most will listen at, and I can not take reference for a entire movie and a lot of guests still want me to turn it down when listening at 12 db below reference.


This information above is for example purposes and is ruff and leaves out many aspects which effect things such as driver sizes, what hz numbers it is measured out etc etc etc.............but should give you a fairly basic concept of how many watts do I need and why 20 watts per channel difference on a AVR receiver is pretty much meaningless....100....120....135 per channel amounts to pretty much nothing difference wise in a AVRs wattage performance . Even a large difference of say doubling the power from 135 to 270 watts per channel only gets a 3db difference.

Move your AVR`s volume up and down 3 numbers and see what that amounts to, so even a 270 watt VS a 135 watt per channel receiver is still fairly meaningless, which is why recievers in the 100 to 135 watt range are for all wattage/volume comparisons no different.
>For example my receiver is 135 watts per channel into 2 channels , so 270 or so watts max divided into its 7 channels or 38 watts per channel with all channels driven max.

Is this correct? Reason I am asking is - let's take an example of Denon x4200w. It is rated 125W (2 channel driven). So, it becomes a 250W AVR and if you divide it by 7 - you get ~36W per channel. But according to Sound and Vision test bench - it is rated 76W per channel with all 7 channels driven.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

I am not questioning you but would like to understand this better. I am using my x4300H to drive 9 channels and trying to figure out what it might be putting per channel

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post #36 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmat123 View Post
>For example my receiver is 135 watts per channel into 2 channels , so 270 or so watts max divided into its 7 channels or 38 watts per channel with all channels driven max.

Is this correct? Reason I am asking is - let's take an example of Denon x4200w. It is rated 125W (2 channel driven). So, it becomes a 250W AVR and if you divide it by 7 - you get ~36W per channel. But according to Sound and Vision test bench - it is rated 76W per channel with all 7 channels driven.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

I am not questioning you but would like to understand this better. I am using my x4300H to drive 9 channels and trying to figure out what it might be putting per channel
That's where I said this just skims the surface.....

From the S and V page.....


(To be fair, the Denon shares this amplifier competence with most midrange-or-up AVRs I’ve experienced in recent years. While I still think that all-channels-driven power is a worth-knowing measure of power supply robustness and general over-engineering, it just isn’t a big deal for reproducing actual soundtracks via actual speakers, because all channels essentially never go full-scale simultaneously, in-phase. Or at least, as Gilbert & Sullivan would say, almost never. )
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...UBtPuF21wQA.99


Test Bench


0.1% THD
1.0% THD
Two Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads
124.3 watts
149.2 watts
Two Channels Continuously Driven, 4-Ohm Loads
215.9 watts
239.7 watts
Five Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads
94.6 watts
118.0 watts
Seven Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads
76.8 watts
91.9 watts

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...y4bdKmoHlmk.99


And the reason for the measurements recorded.


This graph shows the AVR-X4200W’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads. Measurements for THD+noise, crosstalk, signal-to-noise ratio, and analog/digital frequency response were all within expected performance parameters. Full details available at soundandvision.com.—MJP
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...y4bdKmoHlmk.99



Even with ohm loads stated and THD numbers and continued stated, it still does not state the test signal...which can make a huge difference...pink noise...white noise, a 1K tone etc.


But those numbers are taken from one channel which leads to believe it is putting out 76 watts to seven channels at once or 546 watts continued into 7 speakers at .1 THD.


If they moved the meter to say the rear channel or top Atmos channel it would not measure at 76 watts would be my guess........


I could be wrong , I am just going by my understanding and the reports from those way wiser than me.......I have not personally measured it for myself.


My posts were just to show the small differences and not real tests like the article.


But lets say it does in fact put out 76 watts each channel......it would amount to a 3db difference from 38 watts.

Once again move your master volume up and down 3 to see the difference.....

I wish I knew more to better answer your question....to put it simply, I am not educated enough to answer it is the short version....

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post #37 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 05:57 PM
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Not sure either... the signal that they are using is pretty close to Denon published ratings for 2-channel (125W published and 124.3W seen in testbench). One would think that they were using the same procedure to measure 5 and 7 channel outputs.

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post #38 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 06:32 PM
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Heres a vid testing 2 channels, but at 1%thd which is way too much for main speakers, he has a subwoofer amp dyno......




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post #39 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 07:20 PM
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what's the difference between 1%thd and .08%thd, other than the fact that one is smaller than the other. what is good for an AVR?

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post #40 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
what's the difference between 1%thd and .08%thd, other than the fact that one is smaller than the other. what is good for an AVR?
There's not much difference between the 2 numbers, but this is another way they manipulate the power output numbers. Up the THD and up goes the output. As an example here are some manufacture numbers from my AVR, Yamaha RX-A2060:

1) Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) 155 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
2) Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 140 W (8 ohms, 0.06% THD)
3) Maximum Effective Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) (JEITA) 220 W (8 ohms, 10% THD)

Looking at these numbers, the only one that matters to me is #2 , as it is reasonable power at reasonable THD across a wide range. It has plenty of power to run my speakers.
Now I run external amps, not because the AVR has a weak amp section, but it is required to run external room correction, Dirac Live.
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post #41 of 46 Old 04-06-2018, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
what's the difference between 1%thd and .08%thd, other than the fact that one is smaller than the other. what is good for an AVR?

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...distortion-thd

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post #42 of 46 Old 04-07-2018, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by baneling View Post
So what is the Honda and Toyota AVRs?
I get that! As a noob in many other domains I always use these Japanese icons as reference.. For example I once had RV fever and surfed RV forums for months. Yet, I had zero clue as to what's a good reliable one..there are so many "brands". Never pulled the trigger cuz of that. But knowing the Camry or Accord of any domain would be nice and easy for all novice buyers.


My suggestion worth every dollar you'll pay for it.. get a Denon X3400 on one of those Fry's deals ($580ish). It should be enough receiver for your needs. It would also allow pre-outs for your Onkyo to off-load some amplification. Together they would drive 88-92db 8ohm speakers at comfortably high volumes in a HT.


Good luck!

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Originally Posted by RiverSide View Post
I get that! As a noob in many other domains I always use these Japanese icons as reference.. For example I once had RV fever and surfed RV forums for months. Yet, I had zero clue as to what's a good reliable one..there are so many "brands". Never pulled the trigger cuz of that. But knowing the Camry or Accord of any domain would be nice and easy for all novice buyers.


My suggestion worth every dollar you'll pay for it.. get a Denon X3400 on one of those Fry's deals ($580ish). It should be enough receiver for your needs. It would also allow pre-outs for your Onkyo to off-load some amplification. Together they would drive 88-92db 8ohm speakers at comfortably high volumes in a HT.


Good luck!


I need the onkyo for my main floor family room

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post #44 of 46 Old 04-08-2018, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
This is just a example I found quickly so others exist cheaper.

My brother just picked up a used one for 100 bucks that does the same thing.


https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ivers/SC-LX901

High-Power Simultaneous Multi-Channel Drive
With Class AB amplifiers, driving all channels at full power is only possible for a short time, at around 300 W to 400 W power output. The SC-LX901’s Class D3 Amplifier has the ability to simultaneously drive 11-channels at 850 W power output, while efficiently delivering dynamic content.

what spec are you looking at the shows that it has "independent amps for each channel built in"?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
what spec are you looking at the shows that it has "independent amps for each channel built in"?
You might look at whether there are independent power supplies.. Doubt there’ll be one for each channel but multiple PS indicate a beefier amp section. Most good receivers also have discrete output stages.. another thing to look for.
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post #46 of 46 Old 04-08-2018, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
what spec are you looking at the shows that it has "independent amps for each channel built in"?
I was mentioning things to look for, not specific specs of that receiver,,,,,



Most recievers will power most speakers fine, unless they are super unsensitive speakers or you listen at crazy levels


Use the post I made on that as a guide.........doubling the power gets you 3db.


80 watts per channel estimated 160 watts split between all the speakers....23 watts per channel. 93db per watt speakers at 1 watt.

93db 1 watt
96 db 2 watts
99db 4 watts
101db 8 watts
104db 16 watts


even a 80 watt per channel receiver can just hit reference which most people only rarely watch a movie that loud, as it is crazy loud.

If you have huge woofered mains, 12 to 15 inch, then more power is not a bad thing if you run them full range or down to 60hz or below.


My cheap receiver runs huge 3 ways with 15 inch woofers down to 80hz no problem.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
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