New Behringer NX Series: 1000/3000/6000 in Black - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 568 Old 04-28-2018, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmaguy View Post
A contrarians speculative view of the new redesign:

The good:
It's black, finally!

It will likely be very slightly quieter in stock form

*Impedence adjusting for those using these for full range operation vs just subs.

The bad:
Looking through the PDF, they have not updated or changed a single thing on the inside* (or even the outside, with the exception of cosmetic differences). You are still buying the same amp and DSP solution as before with zero updates*. To me this means no adjustment under 20 hz, which was a popular request around here. Even upping the PEQ count from 8 to 10 would have been a great update, but nada.

The fans will still be the same loud fans, with the same "variable speed control" as before, which is programmed with the same logic as before: -start cold at the loudness of a lawnmower, then if the unit gets hot, boost up speed to jet engine level. You might not be able to hear the fan quite as well as before because they closed up a large area of the front panel. The small gaps for ventilation on either side of the display have small holes. This means it will be hard to clean and will always look dusty. This unfortunately means very much reduced air flow as well. My guess is that there are no aerodynamic guides inside the chassis to guide airflow, and no added heatsinks for sure, as those would surely add a lot to the production cost. So basically it will likely be a slightly less noisy but vastly less capable cooling system. The conclusion I can draw from that is that it will no longer be a viable solution to fan-swap, as you'll just quickly cook your components. They seem to have fitted larger rubber feet on the bottom to compensate, as these amps have always been heat sinked to the bottom. Maybe the forum can start a crowdfund for a large finned heatsink made of powder coated aluminium that would screw right on to the bottom in place of the feet?

They did away with the handles. The handles weren't there so that you could do bench presses with that 12-pound monster. They were there so that if something touches the amp (anything from an overly enthusiastic groupie, to a labrador in the livingroom, or moving furniture when you're vacuuming), it doesn't touch any buttons or worse, snap off your knob! The new interface is much nicer looking for us home theater folks, but looks much more fragile. The black coating (probably cheap paint on the metal panels) will certainly scratch quickly and easily. YMMV, but to me these don't look anything like the go-anywhere, do anything "beat on 'em who cares" workhorses they replace. I really wonder how popular these will be in the professional market.

The LEDs are cooler-looking, but much less useful. The previous amps had LEDs indicating power levels of -24 dB, -12, -6, clip/protect. The new one has indicators for -40db, -6, -3, protect/clip.

They reduced the 4 ohm power claim from 3100W to 3000W. Is this Behringer being slightly more honest or did they really reduce power output?

One step forward, two steps back.
I've only seen 3KW claimed at 4ohms for the older model, never 3.1?
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post #32 of 568 Old 04-28-2018, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0100010 View Post
I've only seen 3KW claimed at 4ohms for the older model, never 3.1?
https://imagescdn.juno.co.uk/manual/486283-01U.pdf

This is a recent 6000DSP owners manual. They did an "upgrade" red to yellow circuit board ~2016 IIRC. The other difference from the extra 100 claimed watts/ch @ 4 ohms and change in circuit board color was a quieter version of the fan, or perhaps a quieter version of the fan controller software. They claimed optimizations to the efficiency and cooling at the time which have been confirmed by owners. Post 2016 inukes are quieter.

This amp has a different name, and a different appearance. They could have taken the opportunity to change the amp or DSP, or really optimize the design, but it really doesn't appear they have done that (yet). It's still a power hog, and all the ratings and features listed are identical other than the noted exceptions. I'm sure if the company spent 2 cents amortized per unit changing a fan, or adding heat sinks, the marketing department would be shouting from the rooftops about their "fully redesigned and further optimized cooling solution to improve performance and reliability based on passionate user feedback" and then would have one of their kids doodle it in Microsoft Paint so they could add that it was "computer optimized using the latest technology". My intuition is that any improvements over the outgoing model would be printed in bold all caps.

Bear in mind that my rant must be taken with a LOT of salt, as my only source for info other than a couple of owners manuals and pics on the internet... is my ass. Behringer pays lots of smarter people than me to make their decisions. But looking at this from a business viewpoint... If you have a popular but aging design that you have taken as far as you can in terms of "optimization" ie. cost cutting like a cheaper power supply or whatever, then it would be a savvy business move to do a simple cosmetic redesign then increase the price. If you can make it more popular or appealing (black), maybe you'll even increase market share. Either way you can increase the cost to increase your margins per unit, with minimal R&D or engineering costs, without needing to claim added features, because it LOOKS different. The auto industry has been using that joke for decades.
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post #33 of 568 Old 04-28-2018, 10:13 PM
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NOT a misprint... it went out on thousands of boxes, including mine.

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post #34 of 568 Old 04-29-2018, 07:35 PM
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Here is a "review" of the actual power of a plain inuke 6000 (non dsp version) showing that it does between 2000-2100 watts. Down in the comments somewhere, Behringer themselves commented that they rate at "peak rms" or something like that and that they never claimed to rate at just rms values because "that is not how the industry rates amplifiers". If you take the "peak rms" value of 3100 watts that is listed on the box and multiply it by .707, you get 2191.7 watts, which is closer to what the reviewer got in the video. There are a couple of other comments from people who said they contacted Behringer and also got told that they specify "peak rms" values and to get just rms values, multiply by .707. Go figure. Still, this amp is tough to beat for the price for the power and features it has. Especially in today's world of 'disposable electronics'

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post #35 of 568 Old 04-29-2018, 09:33 PM
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One more thought...

There is obviously no dust filter on the fan, and they have stated that it is still back to front ventilation. The smallest restriction the airflow needs to pass through is on the front now. Essentially, they have mounted an air filter AFTER the components that need protection. People with pets or just a dusty house might have little fuzzy blankets around all their electrical components on the inside, and there would be zero indication of that outside or any way to check without opening the case. Curious design decision.

Just to clarify, I'd love to be wrong in this case. I can't wait for some hands-on reviews to start happening, and for this forum to get a hold of one and do the teardown and full-on, in-depth testing that I love and appreciate greatly. Until then, all we can do is speculate.

Before posting I spent a few days thinking about upgrading my current inuke to this new one, but as I tend to do, I thought about it way too hard. I hope someone here can explain that I'm wrong or even just it's not so bad so I can just upgrade already. I hate the way the old one looks (like a brush guard on an old Jeep). I was also on the fence about going "Blackberry" before I found this thread.

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post #36 of 568 Old 04-29-2018, 10:12 PM
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http://media.music-group.com/media/P...20Document.pdf

SmartSense Impedance Compensation:
"NX3000's design also incorporates a significantly-higher damping factor that yields better amplifier control over the loudspeaker for stronger audio reproduction - especially in the LF area."

Before:
NU1000 - >155
NU3000 - >160
NU6000 - >140

After:
NX1000 - >155
NX3000 - >145
NX6000 - >140


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post #37 of 568 Old 04-30-2018, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Here is a "review" of the actual power of a plain inuke 6000 (non dsp version) showing that it does between 2000-2100 watts. Down in the comments somewhere, Behringer themselves commented that they rate at "peak rms" or something like that and that they never claimed to rate at just rms values because "that is not how the industry rates amplifiers". If you take the "peak rms" value of 3100 watts that is listed on the box and multiply it by .707, you get 2191.7 watts, which is closer to what the reviewer got in the video. There are a couple of other comments from people who said they contacted Behringer and also got told that they specify "peak rms" values and to get just rms values, multiply by .707. Go figure. Still, this amp is tough to beat for the price for the power and features it has. Especially in today's world of 'disposable electronics'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Z2fNcGGDI

1100WPC RMS is what I have seen WRT the prior models.

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post #38 of 568 Old 04-30-2018, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmaguy View Post
http://media.music-group.com/media/P...20Document.pdf

SmartSense Impedance Compensation:
"NX3000's design also incorporates a significantly-higher damping factor that yields better amplifier control over the loudspeaker for stronger audio reproduction - especially in the LF area."

Before:
NU1000 - >155
NU3000 - >160
NU6000 - >140

After:
NX1000 - >155
NX3000 - >145
NX6000 - >140


Not sure I understand the frowny face. Normally DF is not really an issue, unless you have too long of speaker wire at too small a gauge.

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post #39 of 568 Old 05-05-2018, 09:02 PM
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I think the frowny face is because it's another unchanged spec. It's more evidence that this amp is just the same internals in a different enclosure.

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post #40 of 568 Old 05-05-2018, 09:20 PM
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If it was simply an unchanged spec, I could totally let that slide... Who am I to say that 160.499 isn't significantly higher than 160.001?

But going out of your way to say that a spec is "significantly higher" when in fact you have reduced it by ~10%... that really takes balls.

I've double checked this... 145 is NOT "significantly higher" than 160.

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post #41 of 568 Old 05-10-2018, 11:19 AM
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Ah, didn't notice that the 3000 had changed, and in the wrong direction...

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post #42 of 568 Old 05-11-2018, 01:30 PM
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If you're talking about the damping factor, that difference is insignificant.

I nerded out and did the calculation; based on an 8 ohm load (I'm assuming Behringer used that because it gives 2X the DF as 4), the increase in amp internal resistance is .0052 ohms, equivalent to adding a foot of 14 gauge speaker wire.
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post #43 of 568 Old 05-11-2018, 01:43 PM
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Nice nerding, Noah!
I've always been a little fuzzy on the concept of damping factor. Is it just the ratio of amplifier output impedance to rated load? And what metric does that affect? Just THD?

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post #44 of 568 Old 05-11-2018, 02:17 PM
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Behringer products look good on paper but...
Real world operation is another subject..
For a consumer install the product may suffice...
But in pro-audio installs where strong reliability is required typically other amplifier brands are used such as Crown or QSC....
Watts per $ specs are impressive, but be sure to double check the warranty and return policy...

Just my $0.02...
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post #45 of 568 Old 05-12-2018, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
Nice nerding, Noah!
I've always been a little fuzzy on the concept of damping factor. Is it just the ratio of amplifier output impedance to rated load? And what metric does that affect? Just THD?

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Thanks

> Is it just the ratio of amplifier output impedance to rated load?

Exactly.

It's called damping factor because adding resistance to the speaker's current path reduces its ability to control cone movement.

That's because when the cone moves it generates back-EMF ( electromotive force), a voltage produced by the voice coil when moving through the magnetic field it's in.

This voltage is opposite in phase to the amplifier voltage, so when the signal goes away* it actively slows the cone and prevents the cone from ringing at its resonance freq.

So excessive cable resistance and/or high amp internal impedance will result in sloppy bass.

I guess that would increase (speaker) THD, at least for freq which the resonant freq region is harmonics of.


* Also when it's there; a speaker with a large magnetic can have rolled off bass because the high back-EMF.
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post #46 of 568 Old 05-13-2018, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Behringer products look good on paper but...
Real world operation is another subject..
For a consumer install the product may suffice...
But in pro-audio installs where strong reliability is required typically other amplifier brands are used such as Crown or QSC....
Watts per $ specs are impressive, but be sure to double check the warranty and return policy...

Just my $0.02...
I always find the drive-by shots at the iNuke reliability amusing. Why? Because they never include the links to the plethora of threads discussing iNuke failures on AVS. Obviously, they don't link them because they don't exist in any meaningful numbers. While there is no question that someone is not going to choose iNukes for a stadium band or even a local, fully booked band, that is flush with cash. There is also no question in the comparatively tame environment of HT the things simply work. They have lots of positive attributes and not the least of which is ACTUAL watts per $. Further enhancing their viability for DIY HT is the fact that many of the subs built here are excursion limited at relatively low power levels (say 1000w or less), there are some box/drivers used here that can use thousands of watts but they are the exception rather than the rule. Filters for forced air cooling of amps is also the exception rather than the rule.

Behringer amp reliability IS a huge factor in the professional sound reinforcement arena, it has however proved more than adequate for the average AVS DIY crowd.
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post #47 of 568 Old 05-13-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoM3 View Post
I always find the drive-by shots at the iNuke reliability amusing. Why? Because they never include the links to the plethora of threads discussing iNuke failures on AVS. Obviously, they don't link them because they don't exist in any meaningful numbers. While there is no question that someone is not going to choose iNukes for a stadium band or even a local, fully booked band, that is flush with cash. There is also no question in the comparatively tame environment of HT the things simply work. They have lots of positive attributes and not the least of which is ACTUAL watts per $. Further enhancing their viability for DIY HT is the fact that many of the subs built here are excursion limited at relatively low power levels (say 1000w or less), there are some box/drivers used here that can use thousands of watts but they are the exception rather than the rule. Filters for forced air cooling of amps is also the exception rather than the rule.

Behringer amp reliability IS a huge factor in the professional sound reinforcement arena, it has however proved more than adequate for the average AVS DIY crowd.
There is a big difference between a consumer install and a pro-audio install..
If an amplifier craps out @ home, no biggie just pull it out and send it in for repair or exchange..
However if an amplifier craps out in a pro-audio commercial system, the entire show performance can/will suffer...
Also to survive in a pro-audio install requires more component overbuild and significant, robust reliability..
Besides the reputation of the design engineer for the pro-audio system is on the line...

Just my $0.02...
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post #48 of 568 Old 05-13-2018, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
There is a big difference between a consumer install and a pro-audio install..
If an amplifier craps out @ home, no biggie just pull it out and send it in for repair or exchange..
However if an amplifier craps out in a pro-audio commercial system, the entire show performance can/will suffer...
Also to survive in a pro-audio install requires more component overbuild and significant, robust reliability..
Besides the reputation of the design engineer for the pro-audio system is on the line...

Just my $0.02...

That was exactly what I said regarding pro sound. For pro sound use the Behringer amps are iffy at best, for home they perform perfectly fine. My main point was the need for any special warranty and return policy concern is unwarranted in this venue. Taking the unsubstantiated shot at them in a HT forum is basically disingenuous. On Gear Slutz et al it would make perfect sense.
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post #49 of 568 Old 05-13-2018, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoM3 View Post
That was exactly what I said regarding pro sound. For pro sound use the Behringer amps are iffy at best, for home they perform perfectly fine. My main point was the need for any special warranty and return policy concern is unwarranted in this venue. Taking the unsubstantiated shot at them in a HT forum is basically disingenuous. On Gear Slutz et al it would make perfect sense.
IMHO...
Not taking a shot just stating the facts..
Did U happen to see the other thread about iNuke reliability on this forum..

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...e-6000dsp.html

Nuff said.. Lites out..

Just my $0.02..
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post #50 of 568 Old 05-13-2018, 09:43 PM
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I've had a 3 inukes, two 3k one 6k and have had no issues. The only guy I know on here that has had one fail, blew it up himself. I don't think we have an inuke pandemic on our hands.
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post #51 of 568 Old 05-14-2018, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
There is a big difference between a consumer install and a pro-audio install..
If an amplifier craps out @ home, no biggie just pull it out and send it in for repair or exchange..
However if an amplifier craps out in a pro-audio commercial system, the entire show performance can/will suffer...
Also to survive in a pro-audio install requires more component overbuild and significant, robust reliability..
Besides the reputation of the design engineer for the pro-audio system is on the line...

Just my $0.02...
So it's a problem because in environments substantially different from those under consideration here, with requirements substantially different from those under consideration here, they have a bad reputation, but at the same time, it's not a problem because in the environments under consideration here, with the requirements under consideration here, it's not a problem. Got it.
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post #52 of 568 Old 05-14-2018, 05:24 PM
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Look like the new A800 should address most of the issues some have with the iNuke/NX series. Online stats are obviously a work in progress, but if what is posted so far is to be believed; indications are its Class D, convection cooled, has the NX frequency compensation, and RCA and balanced inputs.

http://www.musictri.be/Categories/Be...g/A800/p/P0CE8
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post #53 of 568 Old 05-15-2018, 10:50 AM
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looks like behringer is ready for hi-res audio. lol.





anybody requiring rca inputs can 'add their own' for a dollar.


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post #54 of 568 Old 05-15-2018, 06:17 PM
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looks like behringer is ready for hi-res audio. lol.

anybody requiring rca inputs can 'add their own' for a dollar.



Better off building a proper cable, with tip to +, ring to -, and sleeve running the length of the cable but not connected to anything on the rca side.

Using one of those adapters grounds the ring and also connects grounds between devices.

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post #55 of 568 Old 05-15-2018, 06:58 PM
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Better off building a proper cable, with tip to +, ring to -, and sleeve running the length of the cable but not connected to anything on the rca side.

Using one of those adapters grounds the ring and also connects grounds between devices.


that is certainly good advice, but in the case of a typical avr that has a double insulated case and no ground, is there any benefit to the cable vs. the adapter? maybe i missed something in the analysis.


i suppose folks who run their television cable without isolation into their avr, that could create noise through connected grounds, but a cable isolator solves that problem even if the grounded equipment has the pin 1 problem.
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post #56 of 568 Old 05-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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that is certainly good advice, but in the case of a typical avr that has a double insulated case and no ground, is there any benefit to the cable vs. the adapter? maybe i missed something in the analysis.


i suppose folks who run their television cable without isolation into their avr, that could create noise through connected grounds, but a cable isolator solves that problem even if the grounded equipment has the pin 1 problem.
It depends how many grounded devices you have hooked up. 1 amp and nothing else? Probably OK. 2 amps, now you have a potential ground loop. PC or projector? generally grounded as well and hdmi shells are connected directly to ground.
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post #57 of 568 Old 05-15-2018, 07:31 PM
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It depends how many grounded devices you have hooked up. 1 amp and nothing else? Probably OK. 2 amps, now you have a potential ground loop. PC or projector? generally grounded as well and hdmi shells are connected directly to ground.

good point. forgot about the projector. does anybody actually sell the cable in question? i can't recall ever seeing one now that i think about it.


the monoprice that most folks use is wired through (pin 1 to shield to (-) at the rca end). i've encountered lots of ground problems with catv, but can't recall any off hand through the projector ground.
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post #58 of 568 Old 05-16-2018, 09:42 AM
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good point. forgot about the projector. does anybody actually sell the cable in question? i can't recall ever seeing one now that i think about it.


the monoprice that most folks use is wired through (pin 1 to shield to (-) at the rca end). i've encountered lots of ground problems with catv, but can't recall any off hand through the projector ground.
I don't know. I haven't been able to find any. I generally just get their xlr or trs cables and cut an end off and make my own to fit whatever need.
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post #59 of 568 Old 05-16-2018, 02:06 PM
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I think the look of the new amps is vastly improved from the originals. I am hopeful that once these are in some users hands on here, we will get some evidence of actual improvements. As others have said, love them or hate them, the inukes are the value leader.
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post #60 of 568 Old 05-16-2018, 09:22 PM
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"A contrarians speculative view of the new redesign:"

Wow - Negative much?

Let's hope you are wrong, although I fear you are at least partly right. I wanted to order soon, but as sixer said - I'm going to wait and see..
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