"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 118 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3511 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The integrated HEOS module in the AVR can connect to any DLNA server without any app - just by remote.
For example:
1. I have Kodi installed on my PC (you can use any DLNA server, Plex, Twonky Media Server, etc.);
2. DLNA service enabled in Kodi;
3. Music library enabled and content scanned into the Kodi library;
4. The AVR will find automatically your DLNA server and entering into HEOS by using the remote will show your DLNA server name, contents, playlists, whatever...
So you're saying I need to install some sort of DLNA server on my computer? Like I said I didn't need to do anything to my computer with the Denon E300, it just saw my hard drive and I was able to connect to it. I'm talking specifically with the Denon remote, not my phone and denon app.
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post #3512 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 04:14 PM
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I just bought and set up a 3500. I read/skimmed this entire thread and the Audyssey thread.

I have GoldenEar speakers (SuperCenter Reference, Aon 3, Invisa MPX (surrounds)) and a SVS PB-2000 sub in a 5.1 setup. This is a dedicated home theatre with two rows of four leather seats. The front speakers and sub are behind an acoustically transparent screen and tweeters are halfway between ear height for the two rows. I'm playing sources from a Panasonic Blu-Ray, Directv Wireless Genie Mini, and an Apple TV. My front wall (behind the screen) is acoustically treated, but none of the other walls are (I know I need to get around to that eventually). Room is carpeted and open at the back behind the seats, but the opening is covered with a heavy velvet curtain with blackout lining, which I kept closed during set up and listening.

I set up the receiver (twice, actually, after a RESET just to start again). I ran Audyssey with the microphone at tweeter height and 12" from the backs of my leather chairs. I had to use a 25' microphone extension cable to reach the receiver, which is in a closet away from the theatre. I have tried multiple microphone placements (within two feet left and right and front to back of the main listening area, one in each seat at ear height, etc.). After saving the results, I set the crossovers at 80, Dynamic EQ ON (I've tried it both ways), Audyssey to REFERENCE (but I've tried the others, too), and raised the sub volume by 5 from what it had set it at (-5).

I'm really not at all happy with the way it sounds. I came from a junky old AVR-591, and it sounded a lot better in the exact same setup (I just swiped them out). I got this receiver in anticipation of eventually adding Atmos speakers. It's hard to describe the sound, but I would say it's thin, dull, and lifeless. It's not rich and full-range at all. Highs are a little grating, mids are sort of muffled, and the bass is weak and not musical. It makes the speakers sound really cheap. I was generally happy with the sound of the old receiver, and I expected a lot more from this one.

I'm open to any suggestions about how to get this to work, since most folks seem really happy with the receiver. Thanks in advance.
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post #3513 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post
I just bought and set up a 3500. I read/skimmed this entire thread and the Audyssey thread.

I have GoldenEar speakers (SuperCenter Reference, Aon 3, Invisa MPX (surrounds)) and a SVS PB-2000 sub in a 5.1 setup. This is a dedicated home theatre with two rows of four leather seats. The front speakers and sub are behind an acoustically transparent screen and tweeters are halfway between ear height for the two rows. I'm playing sources from a Panasonic Blu-Ray, Directv Wireless Genie Mini, and an Apple TV. My front wall (behind the screen) is acoustically treated, but none of the other walls are (I know I need to get around to that eventually). Room is carpeted and open at the back behind the seats, but the opening is covered with a heavy velvet curtain with blackout lining, which I kept closed during set up and listening.

I set up the receiver (twice, actually, after a RESET just to start again). I ran Audyssey with the microphone at tweeter height and 12" from the backs of my leather chairs. I had to use a 25' microphone extension cable to reach the receiver, which is in a closet away from the theatre. I have tried multiple microphone placements (within two feet left and right and front to back of the main listening area, one in each seat at ear height, etc.). After saving the results, I set the crossovers at 80, Dynamic EQ ON (I've tried it both ways), Audyssey to REFERENCE (but I've tried the others, too), and raised the sub volume by 5 from what it had set it at (-5).

I'm really not at all happy with the way it sounds. I came from a junky old AVR-591, and it sounded a lot better in the exact same setup (I just swiped them out). I got this receiver in anticipation of eventually adding Atmos speakers. It's hard to describe the sound, but I would say it's thin, dull, and lifeless. It's not rich and full-range at all. Highs are a little grating, mids are sort of muffled, and the bass is weak and not musical. It makes the speakers sound really cheap. I was generally happy with the sound of the old receiver, and I expected a lot more from this one.

I'm open to any suggestions about how to get this to work, since most folks seem really happy with the receiver. Thanks in advance.
My 1st question would be if you have the same opinion when you turn Audyssey XT32 OFF?

As for calibrating, you could also try putting some blankets on the leather couches around the area where you place the mic to reduce the reflections off of the leather..... and I'm assuming that you are using a tri-pod and not just setting the mic on the couch itself?
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post #3514 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
My 1st question would be if you have the same opinion when you turn Audyssey XT32 OFF? It's some better with Audyssey OFF, but still not as good as my old AVR-591 with Audyssey MultEQ.

As for calibrating, you could also try putting some blankets on the leather couches around the area where you place the mic to reduce the reflections off of the leather..... and I'm assuming that you are using a tri-pod and not just setting the mic on the couch itself?
Is this a good idea? The leather is there, so shouldn't it be factored in when calibrating? I'm not going to have a blanket on there any other time.

I'm actually using a mic stand, so the mic doesn't touch anything and there's nothing under it. It's basically floating in space.

And, the room is dead quiet. I turned off the AC and the projector, so there's no fan noise. I'm leaving the room before starting each test, too.
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post #3515 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post
Is this a good idea? The leather is there, so shouldn't it be factored in when calibrating? I'm not going to have a blanket on there any other time.

I'm actually using a mic stand, so the mic doesn't touch anything and there's nothing under it. It's basically floating in space.

And, the room is dead quiet. I turned off the AC and the projector, so there's no fan noise. I'm leaving the room before starting each test, too.
Leather couches have been known to possibly mess with what the mic hears due to reflections. No, you won't leave the blankets there, you'll just use them during calibration.

Have you turned Audyssey OFF, and if yes, did you still hate the sound?
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post #3516 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Leather couches have been known to possibly mess with what the mic hears due to reflections. No, you won't leave the blankets there, you'll just use them during calibration.

Have you turned Audyssey OFF, and if yes, did you still hate the sound?
OK. I'll give the blanket thing a try.

Sorry, my answer got cut off. Yes, I did try it with Audyssey OFF, and it was better, but not as good as the AVR-591 with Audyssey ON.

Thanks for the ideas.
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post #3517 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post
Is this a good idea? The leather is there, so shouldn't it be factored in when calibrating? I'm not going to have a blanket on there any other time.



I'm actually using a mic stand, so the mic doesn't touch anything and there's nothing under it. It's basically floating in space.



And, the room is dead quiet. I turned off the AC and the projector, so there's no fan noise. I'm leaving the room before starting each test, too.
Yes, it is . Also did you take all 8 of the available mic positions? If yes I'd run it again but this time stay within no more than a foot of the first center of head mic location. 2 and 3 should be to the right and left of the center one near each ear location. Then take 4,5 and 6 mirrored a foot ahead of those first 3. 7 and 8 I'd take a foot above the 2 and 3 positions. The biggest thing is to tighten up the mic pattern from the last run. Audyssey XT32 is a whole different form of room correction compared to the older XT versions.The algorithms are completely different and multiple Audyssey mic runs can yield totally different results. The tighter mic positions made a night and day difference with my sound. HTH.

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post #3518 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quick Select Programming:

For theX6500H, am I correct in my understanding that a Quick Select can memorize general sound mode (i.e. Movie, Music, Game) but not a selection within that mode (e.g. Mono Movie)? I’d like to have Quick Selects for different Movie Modes to program into my Harmony activities (‘Play an Atmos Movie’, ‘Play a Mono Movie’) but this doesn’t seem possible?

Thank you kindly.

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post #3519 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Yes, it is . Also did you take all 8 of the available mic positions? If yes I'd run it again but this time stay within no more than a foot of the first center of head mic location. 2 and 3 should be to the right and left of the center one near each ear location. Then take 4,5 and 6 mirrored a foot ahead of those first 3. 7 and 8 I'd take a foot above the 2 and 3 positions. The biggest thing is to tighten up the mic pattern from the last run. Audyssey XT32 is a whole different form of room correction compared to the older XT versions.The algorithms are completely different and multiple Audyssey mic runs can yield totally different results. The tighter mic positions made a night and day difference with my sound. HTH.
Hey Max, do you take your 7th and 8th mic position sweeps a foot above the rest because your seating area (MLP) is near a back wall by any chance, I elevate my last two (7&8) about 3-5" right about where my ears would be, that puts the mic between 1 & 2 and 1 & 3, just curious why you go a foot above, being close to a back wall comes to mind, thanks buddy.............
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post #3520 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Yes, it is . Also did you take all 8 of the available mic positions? If yes I'd run it again but this time stay within no more than a foot of the first center of head mic location. 2 and 3 should be to the right and left of the center one near each ear location. Then take 4,5 and 6 mirrored a foot ahead of those first 3. 7 and 8 I'd take a foot above the 2 and 3 positions. The biggest thing is to tighten up the mic pattern from the last run. Audyssey XT32 is a whole different form of room correction compared to the older XT versions.The algorithms are completely different and multiple Audyssey mic runs can yield totally different results. The tighter mic positions made a night and day difference with my sound. HTH.
Yes, I did all 8. I've tried 3 across in the front row seats, 3 in front of the seats, and 2 behind the seats. I've also tried 3 across in the front row seats, 3 across in the back row seats, and two in between the rows.

Sorry for the delay getting back, but there were some screaming children playing in the neighbor's yard behind me. I had to wait for them to settle down.

So, I followed your advice with the close mic positioning. I also threw blankets over both rows of seats. I'll have to say, that's been the best result so far. I'm not 100% convinced that it is as good as before, but it's certainly a HUGE improvement.

The one audio issue I'm still struggling with is a bit of a mid-range "whomp." There are certain pitches (see Dark Knight, scene one, right before we see the vault the first time), that seem to resonate a little more with sort of a "whomp." I'm not sure about that. Using the Audyssey FLAT setting seems to improve this some versus REFERENCE. If you have any ideas about that, I'd be happy to hear them.

Thanks, everyone, for the good input!
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post #3521 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey Max, do you take your 7th and 8th mic position sweeps a foot above the rest because your seating area (MLP) is near a back wall by any chance, I elevate my last two (7&8) about 3-5" right about where my ears would be, that puts the mic between 1 & 2 and 1 & 3, just curious why you go a foot above, being close to a back wall comes to mind, thanks buddy.............
Hey buddy. That's exactly why I do it but there is also a general philosophy by some that you should never take mic measurements behind your MLP. They consider them wasted measurements or possible problem measurements. They recommend the higher and even lower measurements relative to the first as an alternative for those last mic slots. This is even recommended in some of the REW tutorials as well when taking more than 3 measurements. I saw one recommend the other day to take all but the first of 8 at different angle heights in front of the first but all still relative to that first one but I haven't tried it myself.
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post #3522 of 3816 Old 05-23-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post
Yes, I did all 8. I've tried 3 across in the front row seats, 3 in front of the seats, and 2 behind the seats. I've also tried 3 across in the front row seats, 3 across in the back row seats, and two in between the rows.
Got it. My first reaction is the spacing for those is way too spread out. Basically you want to measure for and solely from the primary listening position regardless of how many secondary seats there are.



Quote:
Sorry for the delay getting back, but there were some screaming children playing in the neighbor's yard behind me. I had to wait for them to settle down.
No worries. Family before hobbies.



Quote:
So, I followed your advice with the close mic positioning. I also threw blankets over both rows of seats. I'll have to say, that's been the best result so far. I'm not 100% convinced that it is as good as before, but it's certainly a HUGE improvement.
Good deal. Better is good. Big kudos to you for taking the time to test the theory.



Quote:
The one audio issue I'm still struggling with is a bit of a mid-range "whomp." There are certain pitches (see Dark Knight, scene one, right before we see the vault the first time), that seem to resonate a little more with sort of a "whomp." I'm not sure about that. Using the Audyssey FLAT setting seems to improve this some versus REFERENCE. If you have any ideas about that, I'd be happy to hear them.



Thanks, everyone, for the good input!
Hmm. That's a strange one. Changing from Reference to Flat in the receiver removes the mid range compensation dip at 2Khz and doesn't roll off the high frequencies. Flat is usually preferred in highly treated rooms or small rooms where the MLP is very close to the front speakers. Other than that I don't have much in the way of tips for that issue. I used Flat in the receivers MultEQ settings as well as the Denon Cinema EQ curve setting together since the latter still has the HF rolloff but without the MRC dip built in at 2Khz. It's a hack to remove MRC for those without the paid 20 dollar MultEQ mobile app.
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post #3523 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 01:22 AM
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So you're saying I need to install some sort of DLNA server on my computer?
Yes, you need a DLNA server. Even Windows 7/8/10 has an integrated DLNA server - open Control Panel\Network and Internet\Network and Sharing Center\Media streaming options.

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Like I said I didn't need to do anything to my computer with the Denon E300, it just saw my hard drive and I was able to connect to it.
Times have changed... Direct network sharing is kind of insecure and complicates things on the player side (the AVR).

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I'm talking specifically with the Denon remote, not my phone and denon app.
Yes, the scenario that I was talking before was made exclusively with the classic InfraRed Denon remote!!! No smartphone, no tablet, no other computer involved except the "server" that holds the actual content.
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post #3524 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 05:05 AM
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I love all the different sound options on the AVR-X4500H!

I just moved up from the AVR-X3300. The voices are much clearer and I’m now using the Auro-2D as my TV sound “go to” format!
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post #3525 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Got it. My first reaction is the spacing for those is way too spread out. Basically you want to measure for and solely from the primary listening position regardless of how many secondary seats there are.





No worries. Family before hobbies.





Good deal. Better is good. Big kudos to you for taking the time to test the theory.





Hmm. That's a strange one. Changing from Reference to Flat in the receiver removes the mid range compensation dip at 2Khz and doesn't roll off the high frequencies. Flat is usually preferred in highly treated rooms or small rooms where the MLP is very close to the front speakers. Other than that I don't have much in the way of tips for that issue. I used Flat in the receivers MultEQ settings as well as the Denon Cinema EQ curve setting together since the latter still has the HF rolloff but without the MRC dip built in at 2Khz. It's a hack to remove MRC for those without the paid 20 dollar MultEQ mobile app.
Good advice. I was doing the same thing, setting the mic at each of my 4 seats. After reading the Audyssey thread, I learned that it was all supposed to be from a MLP. Made a HUGE difference. Could you elaborate on the Flat vs Reference. My room is about 20*22 and the MLP is about 12' from the front speakers and 5' from the back. I use Reference, I do find the levels to be rather high and at what was my usual MAX level of 65 with my old Onkyo which had the older Audyssey.

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post #3526 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 07:57 AM
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Good advice. I was doing the same thing, setting the mic at each of my 4 seats. After reading the Audyssey thread, I learned that it was all supposed to be from a MLP. Made a HUGE difference. Could you elaborate on the Flat vs Reference. My room is about 20*22 and the MLP is about 12' from the front speakers and 5' from the back. I use Reference, I do find the levels to be rather high and at what was my usual MAX level of 65 with my old Onkyo which had the older Audyssey.
My room is about the same size. Not treated. I find flat to work better for me. For some reason voices are muddy any time I use reference.

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post #3527 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 10:44 AM
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I just bought and set up a 3500. I read/skimmed this entire thread and the Audyssey thread.
...
I'm open to any suggestions about how to get this to work, since most folks seem really happy with the receiver. Thanks in advance.
Hello,

First, it is impossible to diagnose online since there are so many moving parts. I can only suggest some basics to try and getting human ears into the setup process than just rely on technology. It is also going to require time. But given what you have invested in it, it is worthwhile. Or pay a professional to come and check it out.

There are any number of reasons why you might hear a bad sound after replacing a component, some acoustical, some technical and some psychological (used to a different sound).

I would start with the basics.

1. Remove all speaker cables from the AVR and speakers and clean both ends of each cable with DeOxit Gold cleaner. If you have banana plugs attached and they have been there for more than a year, this would be a good time to either replace them or take them out and clean them with contact cleaner. (Rationale: sometimes, oxidation builds up over time on surfaces not making contact and when you reconnect, the oxidized surfaces may be making the primary contact which can have strange effects, I once had a friend whose center speaker was making no sound because the contacts were corroded and he thought his amp was bust).

2. Connect only the BluRay source and just the FR and FL speakers. Let the amp warm up for about 30 minutes.

Turn off Audyssey. Play some music as well as quiet dialog and some action sequences. Don't worry about what is in the room. Just sit, close your eyes and listen. Note down impressions (voice quality, highs, lows, stage location, detail, etc). Listen for about 30 minutes. If the stage is not centered for music or quiet dialog, experiment with speaker placement.

Now do a 3 position Audyssey set up with just the two FR, FL speakers. Repeat the same material as above and note down impressions. Listen again and using the app remote turn off and on Audyssey every 30 seconds to do a A/B comparison. What is Audyssey doing that is modifying the sound? If there is a significant difference then you have a serious problem that may or may not be solvable such as incompatibility of speakers with amp, broken or damaged speaker cones, room acoustic set up that is actually hurting the acoustics by over-absorption or destructive canceling. Ironically, some problems like this are only exposed when you get a BETTER amp.

While it may not give the full rich sound and the wide sound stage with two speakers, you should get 90% of your final full set up sound quality with just those two speakers especially for music. If the sound is really poor then either you have a poor room setup acoustically, or some connections are bad or the amp is really not a good fit for the main speakers (it happens). There may be some deficiencies such as narrow stage, lack of low end, muted dialogs etc., but if it is really unsatisfactory then you do need to consider a different amp match. No amount of Audyssey triangulatiosn are going to help. Your ears are the final judge.

If the above 2 speakers set up seems satisfactory other than what other speakers add to it such as better center dialog, low end, etc. now add just the center speaker. Repeat the above process with 3 speakers.

What difference do you notice without Audyssey and with Audyssey A/B test? At best, you should hear better middles and dialogue (popping out more) and a more centered sound stage. However, if the sonic quality deteriorates from 2-speakers set up without Audyssey or the difference with/without Audyssey is very large, then you have a potential problem with the center speaker that needs to be investigated. With this three speaker set up, you should hear everything to your liking, except perhaps insufficient low end.

If the above sounds OK and you are just missing the low end punch, now add the subwoofer and repeat the process. Observe the same as above. This might indicate a problem with subwoofer or its compatibility or connection to the amp. If there is a problem, try switching the subwoofer connection between the two subwoofer outs.

If you aren't happy with the above set up then adding side/rear speakers are going to do nothing for your sonic quality. It is time to either ditch the amp for something else or really see if you have hurt rather than help the acoustic treatment in the room.

Yes, it is natural to wonder why a cheaper amp was sounding better. Not to insult you but sometimes it can be because the cheaper amp was giving out some exaggerated boost in some frequencies or the room treatment was hiding/enhancing missing portions but the new amp has a different sonic profile that doesn't suit the sound you were used to.

The latter can be circumvented by listening to your set up for a week or two. You might find that you are liking it better after those two weeks. This is the most common occurrence after people switch from a cheapo amp that they liked to a more sonically neutral amp or when you switched from listening to a boom box to a real stereo system.

Good luck.


PS: the X3500 or anything in this line is not sonic nirvana. They all have limitations in this middle-tier equipment and when you pair it with a good speaker system and a well-treated roo, they really do show up the deficiencies. It could very well be that you are reacting to those while the cheaper amp was actually better suited to the speakers or its reticence in some areas that evan equalization could not solve actually sounded better. For example, an amp/speaker set up that has poor middle and highs can sound warm and a new more neutral amp sound harsh. Or an amp/speaker that has exaggerated low end when replaced can sound very cold with something more neutral. The point is, don't worry about how the previous one sounded but focus on what works best for you going forward and give each amp a chance for a week are two to get rid of the psycho-acoustic factors.
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post #3528 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 12:01 PM
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Good advice. I was doing the same thing, setting the mic at each of my 4 seats. After reading the Audyssey thread, I learned that it was all supposed to be from a MLP. Made a HUGE difference. Could you elaborate on the Flat vs Reference. My room is about 20*22 and the MLP is about 12' from the front speakers and 5' from the back. I use Reference, I do find the levels to be rather high and at what was my usual MAX level of 65 with my old Onkyo which had the older Audyssey.
Flat is usually preferred for music and Reference for movies but since more users have some form of passive room treatments nowadays it's more about personal preference. Without the paid MultEQ app however the only way to remove the mid range compensation dip built into Reference is to use the Flat curve alone or in conjunction with the Cinema EQ curve to keep the high frequency rolloff. Best to just try them all and let your ears decide which is best for your space. Or get the paid mobile app and simply remove the MRC dip from one of the 2 available Reference curves.
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post #3529 of 3816 Old 05-24-2019, 04:45 PM
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Hello,

First, it is impossible to diagnose online since there are so many moving parts. I can only suggest some basics to try and getting human ears into the setup process than just rely on technology. It is also going to require time. But given what you have invested in it, it is worthwhile. Or pay a professional to come and check it out.

There are any number of reasons why you might hear a bad sound after replacing a component, some acoustical, some technical and some psychological (used to a different sound).

I would start with the basics.

1. Remove all speaker cables from the AVR and speakers and clean both ends of each cable with DeOxit Gold cleaner. If you have banana plugs attached and they have been there for more than a year, this would be a good time to either replace them or take them out and clean them with contact cleaner. (Rationale: sometimes, oxidation builds up over time on surfaces not making contact and when you reconnect, the oxidized surfaces may be making the primary contact which can have strange effects, I once had a friend whose center speaker was making no sound because the contacts were corroded and he thought his amp was bust).

2. Connect only the BluRay source and just the FR and FL speakers. Let the amp warm up for about 30 minutes.

Turn off Audyssey. Play some music as well as quiet dialog and some action sequences. Don't worry about what is in the room. Just sit, close your eyes and listen. Note down impressions (voice quality, highs, lows, stage location, detail, etc). Listen for about 30 minutes. If the stage is not centered for music or quiet dialog, experiment with speaker placement.

Now do a 3 position Audyssey set up with just the two FR, FL speakers. Repeat the same material as above and note down impressions. Listen again and using the app remote turn off and on Audyssey every 30 seconds to do a A/B comparison. What is Audyssey doing that is modifying the sound? If there is a significant difference then you have a serious problem that may or may not be solvable such as incompatibility of speakers with amp, broken or damaged speaker cones, room acoustic set up that is actually hurting the acoustics by over-absorption or destructive canceling. Ironically, some problems like this are only exposed when you get a BETTER amp.

While it may not give the full rich sound and the wide sound stage with two speakers, you should get 90% of your final full set up sound quality with just those two speakers especially for music. If the sound is really poor then either you have a poor room setup acoustically, or some connections are bad or the amp is really not a good fit for the main speakers (it happens). There may be some deficiencies such as narrow stage, lack of low end, muted dialogs etc., but if it is really unsatisfactory then you do need to consider a different amp match. No amount of Audyssey triangulatiosn are going to help. Your ears are the final judge.

If the above 2 speakers set up seems satisfactory other than what other speakers add to it such as better center dialog, low end, etc. now add just the center speaker. Repeat the above process with 3 speakers.

What difference do you notice without Audyssey and with Audyssey A/B test? At best, you should hear better middles and dialogue (popping out more) and a more centered sound stage. However, if the sonic quality deteriorates from 2-speakers set up without Audyssey or the difference with/without Audyssey is very large, then you have a potential problem with the center speaker that needs to be investigated. With this three speaker set up, you should hear everything to your liking, except perhaps insufficient low end.

If the above sounds OK and you are just missing the low end punch, now add the subwoofer and repeat the process. Observe the same as above. This might indicate a problem with subwoofer or its compatibility or connection to the amp. If there is a problem, try switching the subwoofer connection between the two subwoofer outs.

If you aren't happy with the above set up then adding side/rear speakers are going to do nothing for your sonic quality. It is time to either ditch the amp for something else or really see if you have hurt rather than help the acoustic treatment in the room.

Yes, it is natural to wonder why a cheaper amp was sounding better. Not to insult you but sometimes it can be because the cheaper amp was giving out some exaggerated boost in some frequencies or the room treatment was hiding/enhancing missing portions but the new amp has a different sonic profile that doesn't suit the sound you were used to.

The latter can be circumvented by listening to your set up for a week or two. You might find that you are liking it better after those two weeks. This is the most common occurrence after people switch from a cheapo amp that they liked to a more sonically neutral amp or when you switched from listening to a boom box to a real stereo system.

Good luck.


PS: the X3500 or anything in this line is not sonic nirvana. They all have limitations in this middle-tier equipment and when you pair it with a good speaker system and a well-treated roo, they really do show up the deficiencies. It could very well be that you are reacting to those while the cheaper amp was actually better suited to the speakers or its reticence in some areas that evan equalization could not solve actually sounded better. For example, an amp/speaker set up that has poor middle and highs can sound warm and a new more neutral amp sound harsh. Or an amp/speaker that has exaggerated low end when replaced can sound very cold with something more neutral. The point is, don't worry about how the previous one sounded but focus on what works best for you going forward and give each amp a chance for a week are two to get rid of the psycho-acoustic factors.

Thanks for taking time to provide this additional feedback about my issue. After following the blankets over the seating and tight microphone positioning recommendations, I'm finding the result to be much better. I think I'm going to be able to live with the new sound, but it is definitely a change! I really appreciate the help from everyone. If y'all ever make it to Nashville, we'll have a movie night, and you can hear it in person!
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post #3530 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post
Thanks for taking time to provide this additional feedback about my issue. After following the blankets over the seating and tight microphone positioning recommendations, I'm finding the result to be much better. I think I'm going to be able to live with the new sound, but it is definitely a change! I really appreciate the help from everyone. If y'all ever make it to Nashville, we'll have a movie night, and you can hear it in person!

👍
I predict that you will increasingly like the sound much better over the next two weeks and it will likely have very little to do with rearranging furniture or drapes or Audyssey rehashing.


If you get a chance to listen to the old receiver again a bit later on, you will likely find it a bit lacking in depth, detail, clarity, etc. Such is the nature of psycho-acoustics.


Going forward, for the set up you have, you have made a good choice in selecting the X3500H rather than a model below it or models above it. Your best bet in significantly improving your theatrical experience in the future won't come from upgrading to another receiver or having bought a higher one in this line now.


It will come from using the 3500 as a dac/pre-amp with one of the best equalization circuitry (hence better than the models below it) and feeding the pre-outs to a separate and capable multi-channel amp that will provide the dynamicism, transparency, and the heart pounding but clear low end your speakers are capable of putting out which none of the receivers in this series will. Buying a higher end of the line now would not have resulted in any significant improvement in sound quality and the power amp circuitry you may have paid much more for will go idle upgrading to an external amp. You won't have to pay for all the front-end features again for a while.



The 3500 will serve in that capacity for a decent while until your really need the next set of technologies with content available to fully utilize HDMI 2.1, and then you can upgrade to just a pre-amp/DAC with the best DAC and eq features available at the time.

Last edited by teachsac; 05-25-2019 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Removed price talk
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post #3531 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Robiaamodt View Post
2. My TCL doesn’t up convert as far as I know so anything could be better than nothing. I’m just wondering if it has a lot of artifacts and won’t be worth the upgrade.
As already said, yes it does. It would be VERY OBVIOUS if it didn't!!!




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post #3532 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 05:07 AM
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Which Ac infinity for Denon X6500H T9, S9 or aircom

I know I need the T9, S9 or should I consider the aircom or even just a couple of individual fans? I have lots of room above the receiver so I know the 9 series is the way to go but Questions and needs are as follows:

I would like to not have lights on
I would like to have the unit power on with the receiver
I would like the unit to continue to stay on for a while after receiver is powered down

I have the harmony elite, do I need to automate the unit or will it automate itself?

If both units do all this and automate is the temp display worth it and can it be dimmed?

thanks so much
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post #3533 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Dohring View Post
I know I need the T9, S9 or should I consider the aircom or even just a couple of individual fans? I have lots of room above the receiver so I know the 9 series is the way to go but Questions and needs are as follows:

I would like to not have lights on
I would like to have the unit power on with the receiver
I would like the unit to continue to stay on for a while after receiver is powered down

I have the harmony elite, do I need to automate the unit or will it automate itself?

If both units do all this and automate is the temp display worth it and can it be dimmed?

thanks so much
i don't see a way to have the ac unit power on with the receiver and yet stay on for a preset time AFTER you turn off the receiver. Not without some serious electronic jiggery... :-)
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post #3534 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ipca204 View Post
i don't see a way to have the ac unit power on with the receiver and yet stay on for a preset time AFTER you turn off the receiver. Not without some serious electronic jiggery... :-)
These units are often automated by the temperature they sense. Why is that not acceptable?
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post #3535 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audimus View Post

I predict that you will increasingly like the sound much better over the next two weeks and it will likely have very little to do with rearranging furniture or drapes or Audyssey rehashing.


If you get a chance to listen to the old receiver again a bit later on, you will likely find it a bit lacking in depth, detail, clarity, etc. Such is the nature of psycho-acoustics.


Going forward, for the set up you have, you have made a good choice in selecting the X3500H rather than a model below it or models above it. Your best bet in significantly improving your theatrical experience in the future won't come from upgrading to another receiver or having bought a higher one in this line now.


It will come from using the 3500 as a dac/pre-amp with one of the best equalization circuitry (hence better than the models below it) and feeding the pre-outs to a separate and capable multi-channel amp that will provide the dynamicism, transparency, and the heart pounding but clear low end your speakers are capable of putting out which none of the receivers in this series will. Buying a higher end of the line now would not have resulted in any significant improvement in sound quality and the power amp circuitry you may have paid much more for will go idle upgrading to an external amp. You won't have to pay for all the front-end features again for a while.



The 3500 will serve in that capacity for a decent while until your really need the next set of technologies with content available to fully utilize HDMI 2.1, and then you can upgrade to just a pre-amp/DAC with the best DAC and eq features available at the time.


So, the 3500 is really in a sweet spot for evolution especially for those that got it in the $400 deal at Fry's recently.
Thank you for a detailed reply to OP.

How does anyone decide if a dedicated amp will improve the sound over the amp that is included in X3500? Or one dedicated amp will improve sound over another dedicated amp?

I mean what are some of the tell take signs, either in amp specs, amp topology and design, or in the sound quality you hear that tell you that an upgrade is needed?

Last edited by SouthernCA; 05-25-2019 at 05:45 AM.
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post #3536 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 05:47 AM
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These units are often automated by the temperature they sense. Why is that not acceptable?
ummm, why are you quoting me in that reply?
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post #3537 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Dohring View Post
I know I need the T9, S9 or should I consider the aircom or even just a couple of individual fans? I have lots of room above the receiver so I know the 9 series is the way to go but Questions and needs are as follows:

I would like to not have lights on
I would like to have the unit power on with the receiver
I would like the unit to continue to stay on for a while after receiver is powered down

I have the harmony elite, do I need to automate the unit or will it automate itself?

If both units do all this and automate is the temp display worth it and can it be dimmed?

thanks so much

Whether you go with one of the AC Infinity AIRCOM models (e.g., S9 or T9) or a simpler fan solution is a personal decision depending on your preferences and ventilation needs. I myself am using the T8 (rear-venting) and love it.

Most component cooling fans have a temperature sensor that will turn the fan on and off based on a (preset or user-specified) temperature and often feature a variable speed setting as well. There is no need to further automate them as they are self-regulating.

The AIRCOM's do all of this and more, with the T-series offering much more advanced features. The display on the T-models can in fact be dimmed or turned off entirely. The S-models lack a display, but their fan speed light can likewise be turned off if you do not wish to see it other than when changing the speed setting.
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post #3538 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 08:05 AM
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Just looking for some advice. I am powering some Def Tech BP8020s with matching center channel. I dont see myself going beyond 5.2.2, but I cannot decide between the x3500 and x4500. I dont need the extra channels, and i know the power difference is negligible, but what about the sound? Im not an electronics expert, but there there a difference in the components between the two (amps, capacitors, transformers) that will make one more "powerful" or give better "punch"? Or will that be negligible too? Again, Im not really talking about loudness, but more like powerfulness lol? And will it be worth the difference in price? Thank you in advance.
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post #3539 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by marlbombs View Post
Just looking for some advice. I am powering some Def Tech BP8020s with matching center channel. I dont see myself going beyond 5.2.2, but I cannot decide between the x3500 and x4500. I dont need the extra channels, and i know the power difference is negligible, but what about the sound? Im not an electronics expert, but there there a difference in the components between the two (amps, capacitors, transformers) that will make one more "powerful" or give better "punch"? Or will that be negligible too? Again, Im not really talking about loudness, but more like powerfulness lol? And will it be worth the difference in price? Thank you in advance.
Should sound identical to be honest. If you don't need the extra channels then just go with the cheaper 3500. I have the 3400 and I have no complaints. I don't like what Audyssey does so it's off but the sound is still great.

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post #3540 of 3816 Old 05-25-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Should sound identical to be honest. If you don't need the extra channels then just go with the cheaper 3500. I have the 3400 and I have no complaints. I don't like what Audyssey does so it's off but the sound is still great.

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There's a slight difference in sound...I have a 3500 and a 4400. The 4400 has more processing components. I find it to be more robust and clearer than the 3500. I would go with the 4500.

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