"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 129 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3841 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Confirmed.
thanks man!
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post #3842 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by selsrog View Post
Well, I "thought" I was needing to different ones for music and movies. But as it turns out it just might work with one.

Now I must say that – as far as the configuration possibilities go – these are gigantic. I kinda loosing myself in them, finding it very difficult to find the one I most like...
Where are the days that balance, treble and bass where the only settings ;-).

Anyways, I figured out that the Quick Select functions do store different settings. But I'm still a bit lost here.
(I'm using the iOS app for the different configurations.)

In the iOS app you have sound setting under "OPTIONS" [1] (Channel Level Adjust and Tone), via the "sol key" [2] (left of "OPTIONS" for "Sound Mode") via "Audio" [3] (Subwoofer Level, Surround Parameter) under the "hamburger" menu where Audyssey [4] (a bunch of settings) is a part of.
I'm probably forgetting some...

I separate "Audyssey" from "Audio", as I think it supersedes some of the other settings.

Now how do these 4 inter-relate, and which does the Quick Select actually store when saved?
And which overlaps with the other, as it seems you have different places to – as an example – set the subwoofer volume...

Any clear method in using all these?
You would be well served spending some time with the Owner's manual: Quick Select - p. 157
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post #3843 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Can't imagine why it would be, but then, as long as sufficient ventilation is provided and/or you add an external fan, a moot point.

Yeah, I couldn't think of any reason why it would be as the units are basically the same, but maybe there were internal difference you knew about.


I do have my X2400H in a cabinet, but it has good side clearance and I have an AC Infinity T10 fan and it runs very cool. I would assume the X4400H would generate more heat, but would still be able to manage it with the T10.


Thanks
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post #3844 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsnov73 View Post
Yeah, I couldn't think of any reason why it would be as the units are basically the same, but maybe there were internal difference you knew about.


I do have my X2400H in a cabinet, but it has good side clearance and I have an AC Infinity T10 fan and it runs very cool. I would assume the X4400H would generate more heat, but would still be able to manage it with the T10.


Thanks
Not necessarily as the majority of the heat comes from the video card.
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post #3845 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by audimus View Post
Hopefully, the HDR10+ vs Dolby Vision does not turn into a VHS vs Betamax reprise!

HDR+ is very new to have made its way into AVRs already. Dolby Vision has been around for longer. Technically, HDR10+ is best implemented with HDMI 2.1, but like eARC, it can be accommodated over HDMI 2.0 using Info Frames. It just requires a firmware update to enable. But the details of this type of back-porting to HDMI 2.0 is still not completely accepted yet for it to be widely deployed in AVRs that are still in 2.0.

The penetration is more a political and alliance thing. HDR10+ is a Samsung-led initiative that LG and Sony who support Dolby Vision have not implemented yet (not saying they won't). On the other hand, unlike Dolby Vision, HDR10+ is virtually free for manufacturers to implement in their systems but they are more likely waiting for it to stabilize and/or see how the alliances/political battles shake out within the TV makers first. If and when they decide to support it, it will be included in a firmware update for current AVRs.

Assuming HDR10+ becomes a widely accepted standard, the next generation of HDMI 2.1 enabled AVRs will most certainly support it out of the box.
Fixed for you . HDR10+ is what you were writing about. "HDR+" is a Picture Mode on Samsung TVs which does SDR-to-HDR up-conversion, and is something completely different. Samsung should be shot for calling two completely different things with very similar names.
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post #3846 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Fixed for you . HDR10+ is what you were writing about. "HDR+" is a Picture Mode on Samsung TVs which does SDR-to-HDR up-conversion, and is something completely different. Samsung should be shot for calling two completely different things with very similar names.
For people looking for more infor on HDR10+


Like Dolby Vision, HDR10+ is all about adding dynamic metadata to the HDR signal.
Standard HDR10 uses static metadata, which means the boundaries of brightness are set at the start of a film or show and don’t budge for the duration.

These boundaries have to be broad enough to display every scene of the film – essentially, the TV’s 1.07 billion colours are spread evenly across that entire brightness spectrum, which means that if a scene contains only bright or only dark elements, only a portion of those colours are available for it. This can result in dark scenes looking a bit dim and bright scenes losing detail.

With dynamic metadata, those brightness boundaries can be set and changed on a frame-by-frame basis, so the full colour range can be deployed even in scenes that contain only dark or only light elements. The result, in theory, is subtler gradients and therefore more detail.

We’ve already seen this in action with Dolby Vision. The Power Rangers 4K Blu-ray is noticeably improved in Dolby Vision when compared to HDR10, particularly in regard to bright lights in otherwise dark scenes and subtle details in bright areas of an image. In short, it’s a more exciting, enticing and nuanced picture.

How is HDR10+ different to Dolby Vision?

[https://vanilla]

At their core, HDR10+ and Dolby Vision are similar – they both use dynamic metadata to tweak a TV’s performance to get the most out of every frame – but there are key differences.

For a start, while TV manufacturers and studios have to pay Dolby to license Dolby Vision, and therefore have little control over its development and implementation, HDR10+ is a royalty-free, open format that any company, including Samsung’s rivals, can tweak and deploy as it sees fitare. It's due in spring 2019
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post #3847 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 08:02 PM
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Bkoo22 View Post
The problem with me is the WAF re: front part of my cabinet. She doesnt want that touched.

Here is the cab:

https://i.imgur.com/ecXwfvW.jpg

I have a harmony elite so I wont have issues controlling the gear through the front. I can care less, she can care less, how big of a cut I need to make in the back. Its just plywood.


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Gross! I can’t even see any electronics... it’s almost as if you are ashamed of them. SMH
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post #3848 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 08:17 PM
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Gross! I can’t even see any electronics... it’s almost as if you are ashamed of them. SMH

I’m so sorry if my room isn’t up to your standards. I’m ashamed of my electronics, yes. I hate electronics. SMH.


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post #3849 of 4292 Old 06-19-2019, 09:47 PM
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Gross! I can’t even see any electronics... it’s almost as if you are ashamed of them. SMH
You are just kidding I am sure.
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post #3850 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 05:35 AM
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picked up the 4500 last night. a couple questions.

-I can't seem to get the volume control to display on the screen.

-I am using a crest pro amp with XLR inputs. how do I know if I need an RCA to XLR converter and signal bumper?

I have one but wondering how I know if I am getting a hot enough signal to my pro amp.

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/pro...mini/sconvert/
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post #3851 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 06:32 AM
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I’m so sorry if my room isn’t up to your standards. I’m ashamed of my electronics, yes. I hate electronics. SMH.

Don't kid yourself; I think most of us are jealous of your gorgeous cabinetry.

And when I think of the pictures I have seen posted from some proud owners who have a jumble of wires showing everywhere . . .

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post #3852 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by selsrog View Post
I separate "Audyssey" from "Audio", as I think it supersedes some of the other settings.
It helps me to remember that Audyssey's job is room corrections. It adjusts each speaker so that its interaction with the room provides the most level response.

Surround modes, dynamic volume and tone, etc are all outside of its influence.

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post #3853 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Don't kid yourself; I think most of us are jealous of your gorgeous cabinetry.

And when I think of the pictures I have seen posted from some proud owners who have a jumble of wires showing everywhere . . .


Thanks. I was just being sarcastic. that pic was actually pre-install. Installer is finishing everything up today. 9 more speakers. And hiding all the gear, horrible! Lol


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post #3854 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
-I am using a crest pro amp with XLR inputs. how do I know if I need an RCA to XLR converter and signal bumper?

I have one but wondering how I know if I am getting a hot enough signal to my pro amp.

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/pro...mini/sconvert/
On which channels and what ohm load speaker are you driving?

As long as you can calibrate the channel to the proper SPL with the channel trims you have a "hot" enough signal. All of the channels can put out about 4.6Vrms before clipping. That will drive pretty much any amp past the point of making its rated power. However, that's secondary to whether you can calibrate to the proper SPL with the channel trims.
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post #3855 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Bkoo22 View Post
Thanks. I was just being sarcastic. that pic was actually pre-install. Installer is finishing everything up today. 9 more speakers. And hiding all the gear, horrible! Lol

May we see some more pictures of the complete installation? A/V eye candy is welcomed here.

Living Room: Sony XBR-65Z9D; Oppo UDP-203; Nvidia Shield TV; Roku Ultra; Denon AVR-X8500H (9.1.4/13.1); Polk Audio RTiA7 (Fl/r), CSiA6 (C), RTiA5 (Sl/r & FW), OWM5 (SB), 80F/X-RT (FH, RH); SVS SB-2000 (SW)
Bedroom: Sony XBR-55HX929, DarbeeVision DVP 5000S, Amazon Fire TV 4K, Yamaha R-N402 Network Receiver, Polk Audio LSiM703
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post #3856 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 07:45 AM
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May we see some more pictures of the complete installation? A/V eye candy is welcomed here.


Absolutely! But the drywall contractor has to finish this saturday first. They are tearing the ceiling apart.


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post #3857 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
On which channels and what ohm load speaker are you driving?

As long as you can calibrate the channel to the proper SPL with the channel trims you have a "hot" enough signal. All of the channels can put out about 4.6Vrms before clipping. That will drive pretty much any amp past the point of making its rated power. However, that's secondary to whether you can calibrate to the proper SPL with the channel trims.
This is for my subwoofer channel. This is a pro amp that normally needs i think +10db to work properly.
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post #3858 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
This is for my subwoofer channel. This is a pro amp that normally needs i think +10db to work properly.
Well, you're going to clip the subwoofer output of the x4500 with the channel trim at +10dB if you listen above about -15dB on the MV.
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post #3859 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 11:56 AM
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Thanks to everyone who weighed in on the HDR10+ issue. Hopefully Denon implements it for the existing receivers. Being open source it seems like a no brainer to add. I would hope whatever HDMI hardware they are using can handle it. Samsung managed to add it to a 2 year old TV in my bedroom via firmware update a couple months ago. So it seems like it shouldn't require any bleeding edge hardware. But who knows what Denon is using in there.

So I guess for now the BD820 gets connected straight to the Q80 with the audio only HDMI from the player to the Denon.
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post #3860 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 12:03 PM
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Thanks to everyone who weighed in on the HDR10+ issue. Hopefully Denon implements it for the existing receivers. Being open source it seems like a no brainer to add. I would hope whatever HDMI hardware they are using can handle it. Samsung managed to add it to a 2 year old TV in my bedroom via firmware update a couple months ago. So it seems like it shouldn't require any bleeding edge hardware. But who knows what Denon is using in there.



So I guess for now the BD820 gets connected straight to the Q80 with the audio only HDMI from the player to the Denon.
A really dumb question:

Why can't Denon just pass thru the HDMI signal it is getting that has HDR10+ embedded in it without mucking with it. That should not require any firmware upgrade in the Denon AVR. Why does it have to decide if a TV can handle it not?

Or is that too simple a solution?
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post #3861 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 02:02 PM
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A really dumb question:

Why can't Denon just pass thru the HDMI signal it is getting that has HDR10+ embedded in it without mucking with it.
Because that's not how HDMI works. And it's not a dumb question, it's perfectly fair and lots of people wonder the same thing

from https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post53985105 with my emphasis:
Quote:
An HDMI port is either decoding or transmitting (it can't do both), so as long as picture and sound are encoded on one cable, the AVR has to decode the stream, separate the audio, and then repackage the picture info back up for transmitting to the TV.

If any pic info can't be decoded, then that info is discarded. This is why Denon need to issue firmware updates to add support for HLG "pass-through" and dolby vision "pass through". Each and every time something new is present in the signal, it needs to be explicitly added to the "decode-repackage-transmit" routines.

"Pass through" is a misnomer, because there is no bypass: only "decode-repackage-transmit" - whether the AVR adds an on-screen menu, or not.
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post #3862 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Why can't Denon just pass thru the HDMI signal it is getting that has HDR10+ embedded in it without mucking with it. That should not require any firmware upgrade in the Denon AVR. Why does it have to decide if a TV can handle it not?
All I know is that my Oppo 203 with hdmi 2.0 was able to add it via a firmware update, but it wouldn't pass it along even in native output before that.

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post #3863 of 4292 Old 06-20-2019, 06:25 PM
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No Atmos from LG OLED netflix app or Roku Ultra on Denon 4500

I've seen online that the LG OLED TVs (like my 65C8) should be able to send Atmos from the netflix app to my Denon 4500 receiver. But it doesn't work for me. Neither does my Roku Ultra. The only streaming device I have that gives Atmos for both netflix and amazon is my UB820 bluray player.

I'm curious if others find the same to be true, or if perhaps I'm somehow missing something.
Here's the breakdown of which apps on which streaming devices play atmos:

Device Netflix Amazon
Roku Ultra No No
LG C8 No Yes
UB820 Yes Yes

I prefer the Roku interface, so it is a hassle to switch over to the UB820 for Atmos.
My methodology is to play Daredevil season 3 on netflix, or Jack Ryan (UHD version) on amazon. When it starts playing I press the green movie sound button on the Denon remote to select Atmos. On the devices where I can't get Atmos, the receiver then says DD+ DDSurr, whereas when I do get atmos, the receiver front display says Atmos.
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post #3864 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 01:16 AM
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Because that's not how HDMI works.

from https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post53985105 with my emphasis:
Not exactly. HDMI is a protocol standard and does not specify how to implement it just as HTTP protocol does not specify whether a proxy in the middle can work in a transparent mode or support only pass through of fields it knows about. It is an implementation decision.

However, there are practical and licensing issues for content that passes through not just technical ones that may lead to the same observed behavior of not passing through "unsupported" formats.

AVRs do vary in implementation but in standby mode, many AVRs just provide the virtual equivalent of a "wire-level" connectivity from one port to another (the trivial bypass). This allows them to bypass any licensing requirements of new formats that may come in the input. Someone can test this with HDR10+ source going through a Denon in standby mode to see how they have implemented it as their policy. Technically, they can do the same when they are active as well.

Some $40 audio extractors also pass through everything they get while tapping the stream to get audio stream out to another port. They get around any licensing requirements that way and what they can pass through basically depends on the HDMI/HDCP version and the bandwidth they support. They are careful not to mention branding that requires licensing even if they are able to pass them through.

But for companies like Denon there are additional marketing and licensing issues involved. If your implementation decodes the input for your function and packs it back, some formats may have licensing requirements on that and some might even require logo placement (although that is not as common). For this reason, the AVR manufacturers tend to filter for only supported and licensed (even free formats may have licensing requirements) formats in active mode. It also limits being being blamed in case the downstream or upstream devices not under their control misbehave for new formats or misconstructed data.

Technically, since there is limited bandwidth (e.g.,InfoFrames to send additional data) where AVRs MAY pack their own data for some of their functions, it also helps to to ensure that their usage can be predictably accommodated and not squeezed out by new formats using that bandwidth if they were to do a blind pass-through of unknown data. There may even be DRM requirements in future formats.

This is why a new firmware update is needed for such new formats, not just to ensure licensing arrangements but also to ensure that the shared bandwidth they need for themselves can be accommodated and it might even need some changes in their own design and limits on use of their own data to accommodate "hack solutions" like HDR10+ implemented in HDMI 2.0 that was not specifically designed to accommodate such dynamic metadata.
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post #3865 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audimus View Post
Not exactly. HDMI is a protocol standard and does not specify how to implement it just as HTTP protocol does not specify whether a proxy in the middle can work in a transparent mode or support only pass through of fields it knows about. It is an implementation decision.

However, there are practical and licensing issues for content that passes through not just technical ones that may lead to the same observed behavior of not passing through "unsupported" formats.

AVRs do vary in implementation but in standby mode, many AVRs just provide the virtual equivalent of a "wire-level" connectivity from one port to another (the trivial bypass). This allows them to bypass any licensing requirements of new formats that may come in the input. Someone can test this with HDR10+ source going through a Denon in standby mode to see how they have implemented it as their policy. Technically, they can do the same when they are active as well.

Some $40 audio extractors also pass through everything they get while tapping the stream to get audio stream out to another port. They get around any licensing requirements that way and what they can pass through basically depends on the HDMI/HDCP version and the bandwidth they support. They are careful not to mention branding that requires licensing even if they are able to pass them through.

But for companies like Denon there are additional marketing and licensing issues involved. If your implementation decodes the input for your function and packs it back, some formats may have licensing requirements on that and some might even require logo placement (although that is not as common). For this reason, the AVR manufacturers tend to filter for only supported and licensed (even free formats may have licensing requirements) formats in active mode. It also limits being being blamed in case the downstream or upstream devices not under their control misbehave for new formats or misconstructed data.

Technically, since there is limited bandwidth (e.g.,InfoFrames to send additional data) where AVRs MAY pack their own data for some of their functions, it also helps to to ensure that their usage can be predictably accommodated and not squeezed out by new formats using that bandwidth if they were to do a blind pass-through of unknown data. There may even be DRM requirements in future formats.

This is why a new firmware update is needed for such new formats, not just to ensure licensing arrangements but also to ensure that the shared bandwidth they need for themselves can be accommodated and it might even need some changes in their own design and limits on use of their own data to accommodate "hack solutions" like HDR10+ implemented in HDMI 2.0 that was not specifically designed to accommodate such dynamic metadata.
Thank you for taking the time to explain.
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post #3866 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 03:14 AM
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Not exactly. HDMI is a protocol standard and does not specify how to implement it just as HTTP protocol does not specify whether a proxy in the middle can work in a transparent mode or support only pass through of fields it knows about. It is an implementation decision.

However, there are practical and licensing issues for content that passes through not just technical ones that may lead to the same observed behavior of not passing through "unsupported" formats.

AVRs do vary in implementation but in standby mode, many AVRs just provide the virtual equivalent of a "wire-level" connectivity from one port to another (the trivial bypass). This allows them to bypass any licensing requirements of new formats that may come in the input. Someone can test this with HDR10+ source going through a Denon in standby mode to see how they have implemented it as their policy. Technically, they can do the same when they are active as well.

Some $40 audio extractors also pass through everything they get while tapping the stream to get audio stream out to another port. They get around any licensing requirements that way and what they can pass through basically depends on the HDMI/HDCP version and the bandwidth they support. They are careful not to mention branding that requires licensing even if they are able to pass them through.

But for companies like Denon there are additional marketing and licensing issues involved. If your implementation decodes the input for your function and packs it back, some formats may have licensing requirements on that and some might even require logo placement (although that is not as common). For this reason, the AVR manufacturers tend to filter for only supported and licensed (even free formats may have licensing requirements) formats in active mode. It also limits being being blamed in case the downstream or upstream devices not under their control misbehave for new formats or misconstructed data.

Technically, since there is limited bandwidth (e.g.,InfoFrames to send additional data) where AVRs MAY pack their own data for some of their functions, it also helps to to ensure that their usage can be predictably accommodated and not squeezed out by new formats using that bandwidth if they were to do a blind pass-through of unknown data. There may even be DRM requirements in future formats.

This is why a new firmware update is needed for such new formats, not just to ensure licensing arrangements but also to ensure that the shared bandwidth they need for themselves can be accommodated and it might even need some changes in their own design and limits on use of their own data to accommodate "hack solutions" like HDR10+ implemented in HDMI 2.0 that was not specifically designed to accommodate such dynamic metadata.
Do all AVRs follow the same implementation as Denon?

This definitely limits an AVRs ability to future proof itself. A better strategy could be to implement a simpler HDMI selector followed by an audio extractor followed by however many audio decoder functions an AVR wanted to implement.

It may however limit AVRs ability to use the TV as a display device for itself.
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post #3867 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 04:06 AM
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It may however limit AVRs ability to use the TV as a display device for itself.
Yup, this is the key.
Pure pass-through will not let any video signal originating from the AVR to reach the TV (setup menu, GUI overlay, volume, etc.) - the AVR will become an "AR". The "AR" will have to use only its own display for setup and configuration, or a smartphone/tablet app or a special app on the SmartTV.
An "AR" maybe will have a longer life (detached from video processing), but a convoluted setup and usage.
And the first change in the audio standard will stop the long life, as it is with the changes in video standards...
And we're back to square one.
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post #3868 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 06:43 AM
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So I set up my 5.2.4 system last night. Calibrated Denon, all went perfectly. All the speakers on point. The Audyssey speaker setup only recognizes 1 of the 2 subs, however, the 2nd sub works/sounds perfectly in conjunction with the rest of the speakers. Does Audyssey auto-calibrate the 2 subs together as 1?


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post #3869 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 07:25 AM
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When measuring my dual subs during calibration instead of keeping it at the range of 75db at the sub I increase it to 83db due to something I read on these forums suggesting that would be better. When calibration is done my sub level in the avr is reading -12. At the beginning of this thread reads it should not be at that level if so re run. I then bumbed the level up to -7.5 at avr for both subs. Is this okay or should I re run audyssey xt32 and keep it at 75db. When this is done the.avr sub level reads -9.5 and they are basically dead seems like.

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post #3870 of 4292 Old 06-21-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bkoo22 View Post
So I set up my 5.2.4 system last night. Calibrated Denon, all went perfectly. All the speakers on point. The Audyssey speaker setup only recognizes 1 of the 2 subs, however, the 2nd sub works/sounds perfectly in conjunction with the rest of the speakers. Does Audyssey auto-calibrate the 2 subs together as 1?


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Here is a pic of the set up showing the 2nd sub greyed out after calibration. Again, the sub is working, for sure.

https://i.imgur.com/TZBVggp.jpg

Any thoughts would be great. Thanks all.


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