"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 138 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4111 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Agreed

but this could be a good way for some skeptics to check if their speakers will sound better with additional power before spending money on a new more powerful amp.
Not if there is only a negligible (if any at all) increase in power, no.
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post #4112 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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I have been experiencing intermittent audio and video issues with my X3500H when using a 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable and 18 GHz output on a Lumagen Radiance™ Pro.

The issue (intermittent audio stutters and video blanking) is only when I am using the 18 GHz output with the Lumagen Radiance™ Pro and the 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable to both my Denon AVR X3500H in my family room system, and the Marantz AV8805 in my theater system (with the exception of one input that worked; details below). When I set the Radiance™ Pro to output 9 GHz, there is no issue with any of the inputs on either device, so that is an acceptable mitigation that I am using for the X3500H only.

I recently received a replacement cable from RuiPro (outstanding support!) that exhibited the same symptoms, so I tested the orginal 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable in the basement theater system with the Marantz AV8805 AVP. The bottom line is that the RuiPro cable is not the cause of the issue, but rather it is some HDMI issue when the X3500H is in the mix.

What I tested in the basement system was all the inputs on the 8805, and found that only input HDMI Input #7 (CD) with 18 GHz output on the Radiance™ Pro resulted in stable audio and video signal. The other HDMI inputs on the 8805 exhibited the problem. I had previously tested all the inputs on the 3500H in the past, and none of them mitigated the intermittent audio and video issues.

I am not sure if anything can be inferred or correlated with the HDMI hardware of the Marantz AV8805 and the Denon AVR X3500H.

What I am wondering, though, is if I should perform a factory default on the X3500H and test again. I only went so far as a soft reset. I am using the Audyssey app, so that would be easy to reload the calibration settings to the AVR.

Thanks for any input.

Mark
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post #4113 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Not if there is only a negligible (if any at all) increase in power, no.
Wouldn't using two amp circuits of a Denon AVR to power a single speaker double its delivered power? Especially if you turn off surround and others speakers?
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post #4114 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 02:08 PM
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Can someone please redirect me to the ARC troubleshooting post? I’m so sorry, I can’t seem to find the step-by-step. I just got my new Blue Jeans cables and want to start trying to work at this.

Denon X3500>AVPro Edge Extender>Samsung Q9FN.



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post #4115 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Wouldn't using two amp circuits of a Denon AVR to power a single speaker double its delivered power? Especially if you turn off surround and others speakers?
Nope. That's not how it works. The speaker is going to draw whatever power it needs to achieve the volume requested of it.
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post #4116 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 06:34 PM
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I recently "upgraded" from an AV-7005 to an AVR-X6500H. Have an Oppo BDP-93 that was connected to the Marantz by 7.1 analog now connected by HDMI to the Denon. When first connected I got no sound. I downloaded the Denon's firmware a few days ago and Blu-Ray movie audio started playing. Didn't test SACD or DVD-A. Now today I'm trying to play the movie where I left off, no sound again. SACD no sound. DVD-A no sound.

Using this HDMI cable... Monoprice High Speed HDMI Cable 3 Pack - 6 Feet - Black | Certified Premium, [email protected], HDR, 18Gbps, 34AWG, YUV 4:4:4 - Ultra Slim Series. No links allowed yet.

Been through the settings menu countless times. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.

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post #4117 of 4630 Old 07-10-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Nope. That's not how it works. The speaker is going to draw whatever power it needs to achieve the volume requested of it.
True. But people who are concerned about the amp power feel that their current amp does not have enough power to faithfully deliver transient peaks in the music. They feel that such peaks may be 10 dB higher than normal. So instead of buying another amp that has 2x power, they can simulate that with using two amp circuits of a Denon AVR in bi-amping mode.

But maybe not.
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post #4118 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
True. But people who are concerned about the amp power feel that their current amp does not have enough power to faithfully deliver transient peaks in the music. They feel that such peaks may be 10 dB higher than normal. So instead of buying another amp that has 2x power, they can simulate that with using two amp circuits of a Denon AVR in bi-amping mode.

But maybe not.
Again … not.

If someone wants to see what adding an amp that has 2x the power can do, they need to obtain an amp that has 2x the power.
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post #4119 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 01:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Srh13 View Post
I recently "upgraded" from an AV-7005 to an AVR-X6500H. Have an Oppo BDP-93 that was connected to the Marantz by 7.1 analog now connected by HDMI to the Denon. When first connected I got no sound. I downloaded the Denon's firmware a few days ago and Blu-Ray movie audio started playing. Didn't test SACD or DVD-A. Now today I'm trying to play the movie where I left off, no sound again. SACD no sound. DVD-A no sound.

Using this HDMI cable... Monoprice High Speed HDMI Cable 3 Pack - 6 Feet - Black | Certified Premium, [email protected], HDR, 18Gbps, 34AWG, YUV 4:4:4 - Ultra Slim Series. No links allowed yet.

Been through the settings menu countless times. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
Ensure the Oppo firmware is up to date.

Also, there is a lot of very helpful information provided in the first 8 posts of this thread. Review post 3 item 7 specifically for your issue.
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post #4120 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I have been experiencing intermittent audio and video issues with my X3500H when using a 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable and 18 GHz output on a Lumagen Radiance Pro.



The issue (intermittent audio stutters and video blanking) is only when I am using the 18 GHz output with the Lumagen Radiance Pro and the 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable to both my Denon AVR X3500H in my family room system, and the Marantz AV8805 in my theater system (with the exception of one input that worked; details below). When I set the Radiance Pro to output 9 GHz, there is no issue with any of the inputs on either device, so that is an acceptable mitigation that I am using for the X3500H only.



I recently received a replacement cable from RuiPro (outstanding support!) that exhibited the same symptoms, so I tested the orginal 15 meter (50-foot) RuiPro cable in the basement theater system with the Marantz AV8805 AVP. The bottom line is that the RuiPro cable is not the cause of the issue, but rather it is some HDMI issue when the X3500H is in the mix.



What I tested in the basement system was all the inputs on the 8805, and found that only input HDMI Input #7 (CD) with 18 GHz output on the Radiance Pro resulted in stable audio and video signal. The other HDMI inputs on the 8805 exhibited the problem. I had previously tested all the inputs on the 3500H in the past, and none of them mitigated the intermittent audio and video issues.



I am not sure if anything can be inferred or correlated with the HDMI hardware of the Marantz AV8805 and the Denon AVR X3500H.



What I am wondering, though, is if I should perform a factory default on the X3500H and test again. I only went so far as a soft reset. I am using the Audyssey app, so that would be easy to reload the calibration settings to the AVR.



Thanks for any input.



Mark
Is the x3500's 4K signal format set to Enhanced? You should try to shorten your cable run by bringing the receiver closer to the sink device as a test. If set to enhanced with an under 25 foot Certified Premium HDMI cable corrects the issue it is the longer cable that's the issue. Might have worked better on the 8805 if the cable wasn't fully stretched out for that test but was for the other.

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post #4121 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srh13 View Post
I recently "upgraded" from an AV-7005 to an AVR-X6500H. Have an Oppo BDP-93 that was connected to the Marantz by 7.1 analog now connected by HDMI to the Denon. When first connected I got no sound. I downloaded the Denon's firmware a few days ago and Blu-Ray movie audio started playing. Didn't test SACD or DVD-A. Now today I'm trying to play the movie where I left off, no sound again. SACD no sound. DVD-A no sound.



Using this HDMI cable... Monoprice High Speed HDMI Cable 3 Pack - 6 Feet - Black | Certified Premium, [email protected], HDR, 18Gbps, 34AWG, YUV 4:4:4 - Ultra Slim Series. No links allowed yet.



Been through the settings menu countless times. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
Try the other HDMI output on the OPPO.

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post #4122 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Is the x3500's 4K signal format set to Enhanced? You should try to shorten your cable run by bringing the receiver closer to the sink device as a test. If set to enhanced with an under 25 foot Certified Premium HDMI cable corrects the issue it is the longer cable that's the issue. Might have worked better on the 8805 if the cable wasn't fully stretched out for that test but was for the other.


The 3500’s signal format is set to enhanced.

I know that to fully isolate the receiver as the cause, I should move it closer to the sink device. However, since I have a mitigation that works (sending 9Ghz vice 18Ghz through the cable) I’m not motivated to go through that trouble.

The RuiPro HDMI cable was in fact coiled (like it is when it’s new in the box) for the majority of its length when I ran the test.

Could you expand on what you mean that the cable wasn’t fully stretched out, and how that may have affected the test?

Thanks.


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post #4123 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 06:21 AM
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Thanks everyone!
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post #4124 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
True. But people who are concerned about the amp power feel that their current amp does not have enough power to faithfully deliver transient peaks in the music. They feel that such peaks may be 10 dB higher than normal.
And double the amplifier power is only 3dB, a barely discernable difference when music is being played.

Quote:
So instead of buying another amp that has 2x power, they can simulate that with using two amp circuits of a Denon AVR in bi-amping mode.
I can only see that working if the internal speaker wiring is disconnected and each amplifier feeds a different physical driver. Connecting two voltage sources (and that's how a good amplifier behaves) to a single load is asking for smoke and fire.
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post #4125 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
The 3500’s signal format is set to enhanced.

I know that to fully isolate the receiver as the cause, I should move it closer to the sink device. However, since I have a mitigation that works (sending 9Ghz vice 18Ghz through the cable) I’m not motivated to go through that trouble.

The RuiPro HDMI cable was in fact coiled (like it is when it’s new in the box) for the majority of its length when I ran the test.

Could you expand on what you mean that the cable wasn’t fully stretched out, and how that may have affected the test?

Thanks.


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No problem. Blue Jeans cable has done testing with long HDMI runs and tested the same cable coiled and uncoiled. It found a failure for a certain resolution/chroma resulted in a pass for the same resolution/chroma when the cable was coiled. There's a video of the test on YouTube. I guess I don't understand the mitigation that works. You do or do not need more than the 9GBPS you're currently getting? Passthrough of a lower data rate can also be an indicator that the cable is the issue either in length or performance. Bottom line is you haven't actually done any testing that rules out the 49 foot Ruipro. Could be the receiver but just as easily could be the cable especially if coiling it makes a difference.
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post #4126 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
And double the amplifier power is only 3dB, a barely discernable difference when music is being played.





I can only see that working if the internal speaker wiring is disconnected and each amplifier feeds a different physical driver. Connecting two voltage sources (and that's how a good amplifier behaves) to a single load is asking for smoke and fire.
The argument that Denon makes in their manuals is that back EMF from the woofer is captured and used to add power to the tweeter. First off I thought most tweeters only needed about 10 Watts of power max so the idea of sending one more power makes little sense to me but I'm just articulating Denon's position. The speaker sees the single amp's available power. Biamp the same speaker without removing the inefficient passive crossovers(only the metal jumpers) and the woofer and tweeter still see the same amount of power correct? I only added the Wikipedia link explaining EMF for others. I know you don't need to read it. I did. In my mind the woofer sees one amp's power and the tweeter sees the other but then both of those amplified signals are still put through the same inefficient set of resistors, inductors and capacitors. I'd personally rather have more amplified channels than fewer with more amplification.
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post #4127 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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No problem. Blue Jeans cable has done testing with long HDMI runs and tested the same cable coiled and uncoiled. It found a failure for a certain resolution/chroma resulted in a pass for the same resolution/chroma when the cable was coiled. There's a video of the test on YouTube. I guess I don't understand the mitigation that works. You do or do not need more than the 9GBPS you're currently getting? Passthrough of a lower data rate can also be an indicator that the cable is the issue either in length or performance. Bottom line is your haven't actually done any testing that rules out the 49 foot Ruipro. Could be the receiver but just as easily could be the cable especially if coiling it makes a difference.
Thanks for the information. That is an interesting fact about the test, and will see if I can find it. The mitigation is to limit the Radiance Pro output to 9 GHz. When it is set to output 18 GHz, the intermittent audio and video issues manifest. You make a good point that my coiled test was not exact, but I did not realize I should have tested it uncoiled.

I did find one input on the 8805 that accepted 18 GHz without the intermittent audio and video issues, so just assumed this was some Denon / Marantz HDMI issue, given the wild disparity in test results on the various HDMI inputs. That said, this could also just be an issue with the combination of the cable and AVP/AVR. I don't want to spend the $500 on the Lumagen-recommended Tributaries UHD Titan cable just to put the issue to rest, as I can just use 9 GHz, as I will rarely watch 4K/60 content.

I was just wondering if I should go through the pain of a factory reset and try again. I think the answer is "no".

Mark
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post #4128 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Thanks for the information. That is an interesting fact about the test, and will see if I can find it. The mitigation is to limit the Radiance Pro output to 9 GHz. When it is set to output 18 GHz, the intermittent audio and video issues manifest. You make a good point that my coiled test was not exact, but I did not realize I should have tested it uncoiled.

I did find one input on the 8805 that accepted 18 GHz without the intermittent audio and video issues, so just assumed this was some Denon / Marantz HDMI issue, given the wild disparity in test results on the various HDMI inputs. That said, this could also just be an issue with the combination of the cable and AVP/AVR. I don't want to spend the $500 on the Lumagen-recommended Tributaries UHD Titan cable just to put the issue to rest, as I can just use 9 GHz, as I will rarely watch 4K/60 content.

I was just wondering if I should go through the pain of a factory reset and try again. I think the answer is "no".

Mark
In the electric world, coiled long runs of power cords are not good. From the “inductance WIKI”

“A coiled wire has a higher inductance than a straight wire of the same length, because the magnetic field lines pass through the circuit multiple times, it has multiple flux linkages. ... This is called a ferromagnetic core inductor. A magnetic core can increase the inductance of a coil by thousands of times.“

I have NO idea if it pertains to audio signal cables, just a thought.

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post #4129 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 02:22 PM
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In the electric world, coiled long runs of power cords are not good. From the “inductance WIKI”



“A coiled wire has a higher inductance than a straight wire of the same length, because the magnetic field lines pass through the circuit multiple times, it has multiple flux linkages. ... This is called a ferromagnetic core inductor. A magnetic core can increase the inductance of a coil by thousands of times.“



I have NO idea if it pertains to audio signal cables, just a thought.


Yes, I am aware of electrical inductance, but never considered if it was an issue for HDMI cables with 5 VDC? signals.

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post #4130 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 02:40 PM
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Thanks for the information. That is an interesting fact about the test, and will see if I can find it. The mitigation is to limit the Radiance Pro output to 9 GHz. When it is set to output 18 GHz, the intermittent audio and video issues manifest. You make a good point that my coiled test was not exact, but I did not realize I should have tested it uncoiled.
No problem. Yeah I looked a bit ago and couldn't find it but it's saved somewhere on my list of favorites on my YT account. It may even have not been done by BJC but just their cable being tested.



Quote:
I did find one input on the 8805 that accepted 18 GHz without the intermittent audio and video issues, so just assumed this was some Denon / Marantz HDMI issue, given the wild disparity in test results on the various HDMI inputs. That said, this could also just be an issue with the combination of the cable and AVP/AVR. I don't want to spend the $500 on the Lumagen-recommended Tributaries UHD Titan cable just to put the issue to rest, as I can just use 9 GHz, as I will rarely watch 4K/60 content.
Got it. If that input was closest to the receiver's nearest output that might explain it as that's the shortest signal path through that board. Before I'd pay that much for another cable I'd go HDBaseT with HDMI baluns.



Quote:
I was just wondering if I should go through the pain of a factory reset and try again. I think the answer is "no".



Mark
I think no is the answer as well Mark.
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post #4131 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 03:21 PM
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hey guys, still not getting any OSD for volume on my 1080p tv with the 4500. i can see all the setup screens fine, any ideas?
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post #4132 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 03:32 PM
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hey guys, still not getting any OSD for volume on my 1080p tv with the 4500. i can see all the setup screens fine, any ideas?
Did you verify that video conversion under output settings was on? I know you last said you thought that was off but wasn't sure.
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post #4133 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 03:33 PM
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Did you verify that video conversion under output settings was on? I know you last said you thought that was off but wasn't sure.
will triple check tonight when i get home from work, thanks for the follow up..
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post #4134 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 03:47 PM
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Yes, I am aware of electrical inductance, but never considered if it was an issue for HDMI cables with 5 VDC? signals.

Mark


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Well, let’s all know when you solve the mystery.

HDTV: Panasonic P55VT50 Plasma
AVR: Denon X3500H
SPEAKERS: Ohm (mains), Chane 2.4 (center), Rythmik F12G (sub), DefTech ProMonitor 80 (sats)
MEDIA PLAYER: Oppo BD83
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post #4135 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Did you verify that video conversion under output settings was on? I know you last said you thought that was off but wasn't sure.
If it's off then the GUI display would still overlay but onto a black background. If it's transparent meaning you can still see the video over the receiver interface then the setting should be on and the volume should overlay but only onto a black background.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #4136 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 04:14 PM
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@giomania I looked all through my favorites list for that video and still couldn't find it. Some I've saved have gone private but I can't imagine why an HDMI test video would do that. I did see it fully at the time and they were using expensive handheld testing equipment to change the chroma and resolution. If I find it later I'll link it here.
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post #4137 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
. Connecting two voltage sources (and that's how a good amplifier behaves) to a single load is asking for smoke and fire.
It was regarding bi amping. So no trouble. However, with Denon it won't work.
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post #4138 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 05:33 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions. Gave them all a try. No luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Try the other HDMI output on the OPPO.
I tried both HDMI outs. #1 Has picture no sound. #2 Picture & no sound. The Oppo SetUp Menu had a pink background.

I swapped Denon inputs with my Shield. Sound came through Blu-Ray input with Shield connected. No sound Blu-Ray in Shield input.

I also swapped cables between Shield & BDP-93 same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Ensure the Oppo firmware is up to date.

BDP firmware are up to date, confirmed against BDP-93 support page.

Also, there is a lot of very helpful information provided in the first 8 posts of this thread. Review post 3 item 7 specifically for your issue.
7. Audio drop-outs while playing Atmos Blu Ray disc on older model Blu Ray players (BDP): If you’re using an older BDP (eg. Oppo 93) and listening to an Atmos audio track which makes use of Seamless Branching, you may run into random audio dropouts. A work around is to set the BDP to "PCM" vice "bitstream" and let the BDP decode the Dolby TrueHD audio to PCM and on the AVR select the "Multi CH IN + Dolby Surround" mode which will simulate audio to the "height" speakers with no audio dropouts; however, in order for the AVR to play the "bitstream" Atmos track without the random audio dropouts, you'll need to upgrade to a newer BDP. This is true for any brand of AVR. Note, however, that if you are not using "height" speakers (ie. only 5.1 or 7.1), this issue should not apply to you as your setup is only playing the Dolby TrueHD core audio track.

I am playing Avatar Blu-Ray with DTS-HD MA. I don't have height speakers yet. I tried Auto/LPCM/Bitstream on the HDMI Audio Output

BDP-93 shows BD/HDMI/DTS-HD MA/M.CH on display.

Denon shows HDMI/DolbyLogo/M1/Volume/OUT/No speaker image on display.

With Shield Denon shows HDMI/Dig./PCM/DolbyLogo/M1/Volume/OUT/7.1 active speakers on display.

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post #4139 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Did you verify that video conversion under output settings was on? I know you last said you thought that was off but wasn't sure.
I just installed my 4500h this evening and that solved my problem.
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post #4140 of 4630 Old 07-11-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
hey guys, still not getting any OSD for volume on my 1080p tv with the 4500. i can see all the setup screens fine, any ideas?
You've probably checked this, but just in case....there's a separate on/off setting specific for OSD volume. Page 202 of the manual.
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calibrate , dali alteco , Denon , denon 4500h , denon avr-x4500h , denon x3500 , earc , heco victa 500 , lg b8 , onkyo ts-xr507 , sound , speakers , tear ax3000 , testing

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