"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 168 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5011 of 5371 Old 09-20-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by noobtv View Post
... the volume controls are too slow with single presses and too fast when you hold the button.
This! It drives me nuts but, at the same time, if this registers as one of my biggest annoyances, I guess I'm doing alright.

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post #5012 of 5371 Old 09-20-2019, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lom1lo View Post
No Im talking about video mode. It has auto, game and movie.
On other models there is also bypass as option, to completly disable all processing. This is what I want, but somehow only the cheaper models have this functionality
Lower models don't offer analog --> HDMI conversion and therefore don't have the <Video Conversation> setting so instead the "Bypass" setting was added to the <Video Mode> setting on the lower models. On the X3500H, set <Video Conversion> to OFF if it provides better results, although video lagging is rarely ever mentioned by gamers in this forum using Denon receivers.
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post #5013 of 5371 Old 09-20-2019, 10:35 AM
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I’ve searched for this, but nothing matches up with my setup precisely so I’m going to ask if this is normal or not.

Using my Apple TV 4K when playing movie in Plex I have volume somewhere -20db to -18db, depending on the movie. The vast majority of my movies are full rips with no compression at all, including my 4K Blu-ray’s.

In Netflix on the ATV4K, volume varies greatly, but it’s usually several db hotter so say -27db. Not a big variance so that probably normal. This holds true for my Cable source.

With music from either Pandora or Apple Music. Pandora is a bit hotter than Netflix so we’re talking 10db hotter than movies. And then there’s Apple Music which is at least another 10db hotter than Pandora, so it’s a full 20db hotter overall.

Obviously I can’t change the source level per app or on the receiver since it’s all one source. I don’t have Dynamic Volume on any source either. I have yet to check an analog source yet.

So is this volume difference between digital music and movie sound normal? I didn’t have this issue with my Onkyo which the 3500 replaces so it took me by surprise when I switched from movie to music playing at that volume. Needless to say it was damn loud!


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post #5014 of 5371 Old 09-20-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by biglen View Post
I don't understand your point. Wouldn't an older piece of equipment have a better chance at struggling with today's technology, then a newer one would?

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Wasn't comparing it to today's technology. Let's just drop it.

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post #5015 of 5371 Old 09-20-2019, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ionblue View Post
I’ve searched for this, but nothing matches up with my setup precisely so I’m going to ask if this is normal or not.

Using my Apple TV 4K when playing movie in Plex I have volume somewhere -20db to -18db, depending on the movie. The vast majority of my movies are full rips with no compression at all, including my 4K Blu-ray’s.

In Netflix on the ATV4K, volume varies greatly, but it’s usually several db hotter so say -27db. Not a big variance so that probably normal. This holds true for my Cable source.

With music from either Pandora or Apple Music. Pandora is a bit hotter than Netflix so we’re talking 10db hotter than movies. And then there’s Apple Music which is at least another 10db hotter than Pandora, so it’s a full 20db hotter overall.

Obviously I can’t change the source level per app or on the receiver since it’s all one source. I don’t have Dynamic Volume on any source either. I have yet to check an analog source yet.

So is this volume difference between digital music and movie sound normal? I didn’t have this issue with my Onkyo which the 3500 replaces so it took me by surprise when I switched from movie to music playing at that volume. Needless to say it was damn loud!


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Can you try any of those apps on another source or through the HEOS app with Pandora? Not familiar with anything Apple other than knowing it's a closed ecosystem but is there a volume normalization setting in the ATV itself? Can't really answer why your Onkyo didn't do this.

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post #5016 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Can you try any of those apps on another source or through the HEOS app with Pandora? Not familiar with anything Apple other than knowing it's a closed ecosystem but is there a volume normalization setting in the ATV itself? Can't really answer why your Onkyo didn't do this.

Ok... I tried over Bluetooth and it was the same. I tried an internet radio station via HEOS and it was louder still. Then I tried Pandora via HEOS and was the same, if not a bit louder. At -36 the thing was pretty damn loud. So it isn’t the source.

I can definitely say I’m at a loss with this one. Obviously it isn’t a horrific problem. I just have to be sure I turn the volume way down if I’m switching apps.

Unless someone else has an idea of what’s going on?


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post #5017 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 09:38 AM
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I asked this before ,is the denon x4500 a match musically with the marantz 7013 or 6013 ? Is the hdam a gimmick ..I kinda know they are identical and almost same guts ..anyone with both can chime in plz and thank you
I just keep hearing the marantz is so musical ..
The one thing i do miss is tone control but unless you deactivate audessey you cant use it or almost have to tinker with graphic eq ...any thoughts ?

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post #5018 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Can you try any of those apps on another source or through the HEOS app with Pandora? Not familiar with anything Apple other than knowing it's a closed ecosystem but is there a volume normalization setting in the ATV itself? Can't really answer why your Onkyo didn't do this.

Finally got around to try an analog source. It’s a turntable going through a tube pre-amp and connected to the CD source since it’s already amped. Etta James is sounding pretty good and level is about -30dB. So it’s still a bit hotter than any of the others, but I could easily listen to this a bit louder so it may not be a good comparison. Also threw some Bohemian Rhapsody at it and that an easy one to bump the volume up a bit.

I tried them with MultiEQ on reference, flat and off and the level stayed consistent albeit with slightly different overall sound. Would probably change this input to flat or off though. I’ll need to fiddle around a bit.

And I’m still at a loss to this issue. Or non-issue. It’s just damned odd.


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post #5019 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
I asked this before ,is the denon x4500 a match musically with the marantz 7013 or 6013 ? Is the hdam a gimmick ..I kinda know they are identical and almost same guts ..anyone with both can chime in plz and thank you
I just keep hearing the marantz is so musical ..
The one thing i do miss is tone control but unless you deactivate audessey you cant use it or almost have to tinker with graphic eq ...any thoughts ?
The X4500H and SR7013 are sister models. The HDAM pre-amp modules are known to provide a better (ie. more detailed) music listening experience.
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post #5020 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
I asked this before ,is the denon x4500 a match musically with the marantz 7013 or 6013 ? Is the hdam a gimmick ..I kinda know they are identical and almost same guts ..anyone with both can chime in plz and thank you
I just keep hearing the marantz is so musical ..


The one thing i do miss is tone control but unless you deactivate audessey you cant use it or almost have to tinker with graphic eq ...any thoughts ?
The X4500H and SR7013 are sister models. The HDAM pre-amp modules are known to provide a better music listening experience.
Thanks jd , maybe I'll have to try the marantz 6013 or 7012 as it's on sale and compare it's just that damn port hole in the 6013 .at least the 7012 or 13 have the drop down door

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post #5021 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 11:13 AM
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Will any of the in command models, X4500H and up get HDMI 2.1 updates either through FW or hardware upgrades?
I’m just wondering cause how important is 2.1 to these AVRs as far as future proofing?
If a device that has 2.1 HDMI like a streamer or a blue ray player and another audio out to the receiver than you wouldn’t need 2.1 for the audio correct?

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post #5022 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 12:10 PM
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AUX HDMI question

I have a AVR-X3500H. It has an HDMI port on the front labeled as AUX 1. My son wanted to move his Nintendo SNES Classic from his room to play on the main TV. I told him he should be able to just plug it in AUX 1 and it should come up, but it isn't registering. Any thoughts? Is that an HDMI output?
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post #5023 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Reggie Deluxe View Post
I have a AVR-X3500H. It has an HDMI port on the front labeled as AUX 1. My son wanted to move his Nintendo SNES Classic from his room to play on the main TV. I told him he should be able to just plug it in AUX 1 and it should come up, but it isn't registering. Any thoughts? Is that an HDMI output?

Aux 1 is an input. How was the Nintendo connected to the TV in the your boy's room? You may need to adjust the output settings on the Nintendo which you can check by hooking it back up to bedroom TV.
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post #5024 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Reggie Deluxe View Post
I have a AVR-X3500H. It has an HDMI port on the front labeled as AUX 1. My son wanted to move his Nintendo SNES Classic from his room to play on the main TV. I told him he should be able to just plug it in AUX 1 and it should come up, but it isn't registering. Any thoughts? Is that an HDMI output?
SNES classic outputs full RGB. The front HDMI input only handles 4:2:0. Use a rear input.
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post #5025 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobbino421 View Post
Will any of the in command models, X4500H and up get HDMI 2.1 updates either through FW or hardware upgrades?
I’m just wondering cause how important is 2.1 to these AVRs as far as future proofing?
If a device that has 2.1 HDMI like a streamer or a blue ray player and another audio out to the receiver than you wouldn’t need 2.1 for the audio correct?
1. The only current Denon AVR that will be hardware upgradeable to HDMI 2.1 is the current "flagship" X8500H.
2. Correct.
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post #5026 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
I asked this before ,is the denon x4500 a match musically with the marantz 7013 or 6013 ? Is the hdam a gimmick ..I kinda know they are identical and almost same guts ..anyone with both can chime in plz and thank you
I just keep hearing the marantz is so musical ..
HDAM is basically discreet OP amps which according to Marantz's literature reduces slew rate and S/N ratio. Those should already be reduced to inaudible levels using IC chips so the rest is having to rely on subjective testimonials as to any benefits.


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The one thing i do miss is tone control but unless you deactivate audessey you cant use it or almost have to tinker with graphic eq ...any thoughts ?
You don't have to disable Audyssey to use the tone controls. Just Dynamic EQ. Now you do have to disable Audyssey to use the receivers own graphic equalizer but considering GEQ's basically belong in a museum of natural history that's not a difficult choice to stick with Audyssey's FIR filters over just basic amplitude control at certain preset frequencies i.e. no PEQ.

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Last edited by Madmax67; 09-21-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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post #5027 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ionblue View Post
Ok... I tried over Bluetooth and it was the same. I tried an internet radio station via HEOS and it was louder still. Then I tried Pandora via HEOS and was the same, if not a bit louder. At -36 the thing was pretty damn loud. So it isn’t the source.

I can definitely say I’m at a loss with this one. Obviously it isn’t a horrific problem. I just have to be sure I turn the volume way down if I’m switching apps.

Unless someone else has an idea of what’s going on?


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I quickly went between Pandora smooth jazz on my HEOS module in my X4300H receiver and smooth jazz on my satellite TV music channels at -36dB Relative scale and there was almost no difference in perceived amplitude.

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post #5028 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
I quickly went between Pandora smooth jazz on my HEOS module in my X4300H receiver and smooth jazz on my satellite TV music channels at -36dB Relative scale and there was almost no difference in perceived amplitude.

Thanks for checking that. All my digital music sources are close to the same, say around -36 to -40. Now why the hell are TV and movie sources at around -25 to -18?

I dunno. Besides this anomaly, this is one of the best sounding setups I’ve had in quite some time. Far better than the Onkyo I must say.


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post #5029 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ionblue View Post
Thanks for checking that. All my digital music sources are close to the same, say around -36 to -40. Now why the hell are TV and movie sources at around -25 to -18?

I dunno. Besides this anomaly, this is one of the best sounding setups I’ve had in quite some time. Far better than the Onkyo I must say.


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Yeah that's weird. I listen at about -42dB Relative for all sources and except for UHD blu ray discs they all sounds similar in level. I'm in a small sealed space though.

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post #5030 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Yeah that's weird. I listen at about -42dB Relative for all sources and except for UHD blu ray discs they all sounds similar in level. I'm in a small sealed space though.

Damn. Maybe I screwed something up somewhere in the setup, but damned if I can find it. The Audyssey setup turned all the speakers down form my manual setup, but we’re talking -2, -4 or so, nothing crazy.

I’ll ask the obvious question: Should I be concerned at all with this?


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post #5031 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ionblue View Post
Damn. Maybe I screwed something up somewhere in the setup, but damned if I can find it. The Audyssey setup turned all the speakers down form my manual setup, but we’re talking -2, -4 or so, nothing crazy.

I’ll ask the obvious question: Should I be concerned at all with this?


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Yeah, Audyssey just adjusts speaker level up or down relative to in room level at the mic location to 75dB so those numbers just reflect the cut or boost required to reach that same level of output for each speaker. If in Direct mode you're still having these wide variances in the perceived levels between apps in a single source device and other sources then the answer is a strong maybe. I still say maybe because there are many posters who talk about dealing with level changes between apps and sources just not to the degree I see with you. I think one of your examples was a 20dB cut to get to a similar sound? That's not normal IMHO.

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post #5032 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
I asked this before ,is the denon x4500 a match musically with the marantz 7013 or 6013 ? Is the hdam a gimmick ..I kinda know they are identical and almost same guts ..anyone with both can chime in plz and thank you
I just keep hearing the marantz is so musical ..




HDAM is basically discreet OP amps which according to Marantz's literature reduces slew rate and S/N ratio. Those should already be reduced to inaudible levels using IC chips so the rest is having to rely on subjective testimonials as to any benefits.


Quote:
The one thing i do miss is tone control but unless you deactivate audessey you cant use it or almost have to tinker with graphic eq ...any thoughts ?
You don't have to disable Audyssey to use the tone controls. Just Dynamic EQ. Now you do have to disable Audyssey to use the receivers own graphic equalizer but considering GEQ's basically belong in a museum of natural history that's not a difficult choice to stick with Audyssey's FIR filters over just basic amplitude control at certain preset frequencies i.e. no PEQ.
Thanks, it is just driving me nuts trying to catch that onkyo 818 sound with xt 32 and dyn eq to light man I miss that sound and wondering if the marantz 7012 would kinda mimic or match that ..

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post #5033 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Yeah, Audyssey just adjusts speaker level up or down relative to in room level at the mic location to 75dB so those numbers just reflect the cut or boost required to reach that same level of output for each speaker. If in Direct mode you're still having these wide variances in the perceived levels between apps in a single source device and other sources then the answer is a strong maybe. I still say maybe because there are many posters who talk about dealing with level changes between apps and sources just not to the degree I see with you. I think one of your examples was a 20dB cut to get to a similar sound? That's not normal IMHO.

I was being more cautious today in my testing this, but it’s still perceived loudness and not scientific at all. The room we’re in definitely isn’t small and definitely has some obstacles to overcome sound wise. Was surprised how well Audyssey handled it to be honest.

And I know movie soundtracks can be all over the place so this could totally be normal. I tried direct on a show we’re watching now and there was no audible difference in volume. I can fiddle a bit more tomorrow to see how music sources handle direct mode.

As for the 20dB difference, it’s probably more like 10 to 20 depending on source. So as you say, it varies. The worst is Apple Music on the ATV. And for that I did try something that definitely affected the volume. But it’s an all or nothing setting and I didn’t like how it flattened out movies.

So I guess an easier question would be - is the volume I’m at for movie/TV sources totally outside the norm for a 3500? I’m watching a Netflix show and am at -20dB or 60dB depending on which scale it’s set too. Speaking of which, the 60dB level is only slightly higher from the Onkyo on this source. So “normal”. I just don’t recall music being that out of whack. Eh... maybe I’m just beating a dead horse here. Metaphorically speaking of course.


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post #5034 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 05:05 PM
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...but considering GEQ's basically belong in a museum of natural history...

I don't agree. Source material can use it, and Audyssey won't help source material in need of some help. In the picture you see an album from way back, and it is lacking in... yes, bass. Many from that era have the bass, but it's so low down you can barely notice. "CRANK UP THE BASS" will do the trick. Sure, you could also crank up the AVR's SW channel(s) [or even the SW channel gain in that EQ] like here, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58560252 but having a graphical EQ is very useful. To me it is.


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post #5035 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 05:10 PM
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Thanks, it is just driving me nuts trying to catch that onkyo 818 sound with xt 32 and dyn eq to light man I miss that sound and wondering if the marantz 7012 would kinda mimic or match that ..
Got it. Yeah I've heard more than one old Onkyo Owner say they struggled to get a sound they liked better in the Denon. XT32 does more bass correction though which is good for removing boomy bass but bad as to how our ears perceive low frequencies. Most add a bit of bass back using the manual speaker level offsets or they get the paid MultEQ mobile app to add a house curve/ shelf filter. I boost my sub's about 6dB from where Audyssey sets them.

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post #5036 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 40th.com View Post

A GEQ is worthless for dealing with room modes in the home space. No Q control, no center frequency. I guess if you just want to adjust by ear for music a GEQ works ok but its no match for the number of FIR filters Audyssey has at its disposal in XT32 for room EQ. Plus even just a PEQ offers more features for the same processing power.
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post #5037 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 05:41 PM
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I was being more cautious today in my testing this, but it’s still perceived loudness and not scientific at all. The room we’re in definitely isn’t small and definitely has some obstacles to overcome sound wise. Was surprised how well Audyssey handled it to be honest.

And I know movie soundtracks can be all over the place so this could totally be normal. I tried direct on a show we’re watching now and there was no audible difference in volume. I can fiddle a bit more tomorrow to see how music sources handle direct mode.

As for the 20dB difference, it’s probably more like 10 to 20 depending on source. So as you say, it varies. The worst is Apple Music on the ATV. And for that I did try something that definitely affected the volume. But it’s an all or nothing setting and I didn’t like how it flattened out movies.

So I guess an easier question would be - is the volume I’m at for movie/TV sources totally outside the norm for a 3500? I’m watching a Netflix show and am at -20dB or 60dB depending on which scale it’s set too. Speaking of which, the 60dB level is only slightly higher from the Onkyo on this source. So “normal”. I just don’t recall music being that out of whack. Eh... maybe I’m just beating a dead horse here. Metaphorically speaking of course.


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In a larger space those levels aren't out of whack at all and there might be some dynamic EQ and dynamic volume setting differences coming up when not in Direct mode. I've run into that myself A/Bing some stuff and my quick select preset settings changed the range on one or both of those features automatically behind the scenes.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

Last edited by Madmax67; 09-21-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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post #5038 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 06:08 PM
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@40th.com I may have been a bit harsh with the MNH crack though so that I retract.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #5039 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malmstump View Post
Thanks, it is just driving me nuts trying to catch that onkyo 818 sound with xt 32 and dyn eq to light man I miss that sound and wondering if the marantz 7012 would kinda mimic or match that ..
Got it. Yeah I've heard more than one old Onkyo Owner say they struggled to get a sound they liked better in the Denon. XT32 does more bass correction though which is good for removing boomy bass but bad as to how our ears perceive low frequencies. Most add a bit of bass back using the manual speaker level offsets or they get the paid MultEQ mobile app to add a house curve/ shelf filter. I boost my sub's about 6dB from where Audyssey sets them.
That's good advice too btw the app..
Yea that 818 onkyo was king had depth clarity airiness punch ,I mean these are all terms that imo I hear

klipsch klf-30 s Vizio p65
klipsch klf c-7 x 2
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onkyo tx Nr-818 soon denonx4500
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post #5040 of 5371 Old 09-21-2019, 10:50 PM
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weird problems with front panel HDMI input

I got a refurb 740 a few months back from A4L. It seemed to be new and in factory packaging with a QA slip marking it as "B-stock". It's connected to a TCL 55R615. It's mostly great, and it's actually fine for normal A/V use.

But I've been using REW to help with room configuration, speaker placement and so on. I've been connecting a laptop to the front panel HDMI input. I've been having a ton of trouble with that-- out of 5 input devices that I checked, only 3 work correctly and have multichannel audio. I don't think it's cable related, I've tried several and none of these devices will do more than 1080p60 anyway. (But I am on somewhat thin ice there, all my cables are either old, or generic "High Speed" HDMI cables supposedly used by DirectTV once upon a time.) Today I thought to try a rear input, and that works fine with all 5 devices. I know the front panel input is different/limited compared to the rear inputs, though Denon only says vaguely in the manual that 4K60 is limited to 4:2:0, rather than explicitly stating "HDMI 1.4" or the max pixel clock or anything else specific.

Devices that fail with the front panel input:
  • a Dell Latitude 3150 running Windows 10 (computer switches to extended desktop, but usually nothing ever appears on the TV. If the display does work, the laptop only reports 2.0 HDMI audio)
  • a Macbook Air with Accell Thunderbolt2-to-HDMI adapter (comes up at a very low resolution, like 640x480, and glitches/reinits every 5 seconds, not usable for anything)
Devices that work both places:
  • the same Dell Latitude 3150, but running Linux (Ubuntu 19.04)
  • an ancient Lenovo x120e running Windows 10
  • Apple TV 4th generation
My first guess was some kind of hardware problem, either with a lot of cables, or with the front panel jack. But the Lenovo 3150 working differently with different OSes, along with some of the behavior I've seen, makes me think it's maybe a compatibility issue or bug with EDID or link setup or something. Has anyone seen similar behavior with this line of receivers?

And does anybody know of good tools/ways to debug HDMI issues in this sort of setup? I've sometimes looked at similar issues with computers and monitors but this is different. The Denon manual makes passing reference to "Custom" HDMI (EDID?) configuration that an integrator may have set. I suspect this is more about the higher-end models, is that configuration/information accessible on the 740? Are there any good tools for inspecting HDMI link configuration and EDIDs, for Windows/Linux?
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