"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 265 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7921 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post
I have read all of your posts on the subject. Many suggestions that have been made to you to help resolve the issue have been rejected by you. You even talked about removing the video card in your AVR which is ridiculous. Its most likely that the video card in the 4500 is the same as in my 3500 and mine doesn't generate enough heat to warm up a room. You have no plan. You have no solutions.
It's great to hear you aren't having issues, but suggestions are more helpful. So far the best input was from Madmax on the discussion about ECO vs 4 ohm mode where I posted my power consumption numbers showing both modes to be identical, and his suggestion that my unit may be defective because ECO mode doesn't switch itself back on manually after lowering the volume. All use/testing so far was done with everything in the room turned off except the AVR, which was on a glass shelf in open air. Fans affect the rate of heat transfer from the unit to the air, not amount of heat produced, which could lengthen the life of the unit but won't solve my problem.

It would be great if anyone with the ability to measure power usage could post their numbers. I used a Kil-a-watt.

For now, the best solution is to engage ECO mode when using only 2 channels or when listening at lower volumes. Other plans involve a lot of $ and I am exploring those options but they are beyond the scope of this thread.
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post #7922 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:24 AM
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I have lately been trying to listen to my S55 towers with no subwoofer and this X3500H seems absolutely gutless. My previous Sony STR-DE898 (100Wx2ch) had no problems driving the woofers in these towers to give them a full, rich sound. With the X3500H you wouldn't even know the woofers are there in the towers. I have disabled audyssey and tried to use the graphical EQ. The GEQ did make some difference but it is still completely lacking.


I have also made sure the towers were set to full range/large.



Anyone have any suggestions on what might be missing? I can't believe this receiver requires a subwoofer to achieve rich, full sound. I have to be missing a setting somewhere.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #7923 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Anyone have any suggestions on what might be missing?
Redo the Audyssey calibration only with the 2 towers and no subwoofer. And listen to the towers WITH the resulted calibration. Come back with the results.
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post #7924 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Redo the Audyssey calibration only with the 2 towers and no subwoofer. And listen to the towers WITH the resulted calibration. Come back with the results.

I will try that. Thanks.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #7925 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I have lately been trying to listen to my S55 towers with no subwoofer and this X3500H seems absolutely gutless. My previous Sony STR-DE898 (100Wx2ch) had no problems driving the woofers in these towers to give them a full, rich sound. With the X3500H you wouldn't even know the woofers are there in the towers. I have disabled audyssey and tried to use the graphical EQ. The GEQ did make some difference but it is still completely lacking.


I have also made sure the towers were set to full range/large.



Anyone have any suggestions on what might be missing? I can't believe this receiver requires a subwoofer to achieve rich, full sound. I have to be missing a setting somewhere.
Sony receivers have shi**y power supplies while Denon receivers routinely receive high marks with professional bench tests so your problem isn't the Denon's amps ability to provide your speakers enough power. More than likely it's a setup issue meaning Audyssey. If you haven't run it run it. If you have run it make sure you use all 8 mic locations. Don't take any measurements behind the main listening position or above it. Take the first mic location at center of head location using the included cardboard mic stand or better yet use a dedicated boom mic stand and fan the next 7 out to the side and ahead of the first one. Take the 7 EQ positions no more than a foot or so away from the first center of head mic position. The best place for bass in a room is almost never the best place for your mains regardless of the size of the woofers. Having said that I have gotten good bass response from my mains running just 2.0 stereo from time to time.
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post #7926 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 08:21 AM
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JDSmoothie's receiver power measurements from 2015:

Using ECO = ON will result in roughly a 30% reduction in power consumption as well as roughly a 10 degree reduction in temperature of the AVR. I have been using ECO = ON mode since last September with no noticeable difference in SPL using 8-ohm, 92db speakers at an average volume level of 70/-10db in a small 13'x12' enclosed room. ECO mode setting (Auto, On, Off) Power consumption noted using a Kill-A-Watt meter: No source playing: ON/AUTO = 58W; OFF = 92W -40db: ON/AUTO = 61W; OFF = 95W -20db: ON = 61W; AUTO/OFF = 95W -10db: ON = 63W; AUTO/OFF = 97W
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post #7927 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I addressed this already - please read the above posts.
Why does just about every one of your posts tell someone to read above posts like they have no idea what you are talking about? I offered some suggestions to you about a remote in another thread and you found about 5 things wrong with that. Sell your Denon and remote and start over. Sounds like you are never going to be happy. Reread this post if needed.
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post #7928 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MRAYB View Post
Why does just about every one of your posts tell someone to read above posts like they have no idea what you are talking about? I offered some suggestions to you about a remote in another thread and you found about 5 things wrong with that. Sell your Denon and remote and start over. Sounds like you are never going to be happy. Reread this post if needed.
I agree. I refuse to help this person in any way.
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post #7929 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I have lately been trying to listen to my S55 towers with no subwoofer and this X3500H seems absolutely gutless. My previous Sony STR-DE898 (100Wx2ch) had no problems driving the woofers in these towers to give them a full, rich sound. With the X3500H you wouldn't even know the woofers are there in the towers. I have disabled audyssey and tried to use the graphical EQ. The GEQ did make some difference but it is still completely lacking.


I have also made sure the towers were set to full range/large.



Anyone have any suggestions on what might be missing? I can't believe this receiver requires a subwoofer to achieve rich, full sound. I have to be missing a setting somewhere.
Sounds more like a receiver config issue than a power issue to me.

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post #7930 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dkushner View Post
Sounds more like a receiver config issue than a power issue to me.

I agree it is not a power issue but no settings seem to resolve the situation.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #7931 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 06:27 PM
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Volume Limit on X4500H

I have the Denon AVR-X4500h and have my volume display from 0-98. When I select the audyssey setting with Reference and Dynamic EQ on, I have a volume limit that shows 46 on the volume display. Sometimes it will go higher and louder but most of the time it won't. Any suggestions? Why will it rarely go above this volume limit, (which is what I want) but 98% of the time it won't.

Last edited by fireman1000; 05-26-2020 at 06:30 PM.
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post #7932 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I agree it is not a power issue but no settings seem to resolve the situation.
What's your listening levels and are they set to Relative or Absolute? If they're fairly low then Dynamic EQ with a reference level offset of 5 or 10 might help.

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post #7933 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fireman1000 View Post
I have the Denon AVR-X4500h and have my volume display from 0-98. When I select the audyssey setting with Reference and Dynamic EQ on, I have a volume limit that shows 46 on the volume display. Sometimes it will go higher and louder but most of the time it won't. Any suggestions? Why will it rarely go above this volume limit, (which is what I want) but 98% of the time it won't.
Usually that's a sign of headroom lost after running Audyssey and boosting your speaker and or subwoofer levels independently of the master volume. Check under level-> test tones and tell us what your channel offsets are(-12dB to +12dB.) The intermittent nature of it is a bit of a head scratcher. Disable Audyssey in the settings and see how high the levels go then.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #7934 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Usually that's a sign of headroom lost after running Audyssey and boosting your speaker and or subwoofer levels independently of the master volume. Check under level-> test tones and tell us what your channel offsets are(-12dB to +12dB.) The intermittent nature of it is a bit of a head scratcher. Disable Audyssey in the settings and see how high the levels go then.
Yes, I did boost the subs (2) because audyssey turned them -12 and I had no bass at all. There is no limit with audyssey off and even turning on the manual equalizer with the subs turned up. The problem is that it will go above the limit sometimes with audyssey on and I have no idea why.
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post #7935 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fireman1000 View Post
Yes, I did boost the subs (2) because audyssey turned them -12 and I had no bass at all. There is no limit with audyssey off and even turning on the manual equalizer with the subs turned up. The problem is that it will go above the limit sometimes with audyssey on and I have no idea why.
Well it's partly because you had your subwoofers gain set too high on the initial Audyssey setup because a-12dB level offset is the limits of the receivers ability to tell how much they had to lower it to get to Reference level. -11.5dB and down is where that offset should have been set . Ideally a -5dB post Audyssey sub level offset is average. Yours could have been lowered 15dB for all we know since-12dB is the receivers limit to display. That low of an offset means its harder to get the line level signal to your subs input. Room correction takes up headroom but taking up as much headroom as it takes to limit levels that low means something might have been wrong in the initial setup causing Audyssey to over correct for things in the room that weren't important to correct for at the main listening position. Also depending on how much you raised the sub levels afterwards affects things as well. Probably need to rerun Audyssey all 8 mic positions with a lower gain setting on your subs plate amp. End up with a -6dB or sub offset afterwards and you won't have to raise them as much to get good sounding bass. Just keep any raised sub level under 0dB offset in the test tone section.
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Last edited by Madmax67; 05-26-2020 at 08:59 PM.
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post #7936 of 8539 Old 05-26-2020, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by fireman1000 View Post
The problem is that it will go above the limit sometimes with audyssey on and I have no idea why.
Dynamic range of content played enters into it as well so that might be it for the intermittent answer. Hard to tell. Might not have much bass or an LFE track and thus your levels for that content can go higher.
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post #7937 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
What's your listening levels and are they set to Relative or Absolute? If they're fairly low then Dynamic EQ with a reference level offset of 5 or 10 might help.

I had tried multiple listening volumes. I typically set the MV to the relative dB format (0dB is reference I think?). I will try Dynamic EQ and adjust the ref level. What does the ref level do?


The thing that is the most bothersome is that I would have thought that disabling all audyssey settings would produce a similar sound as my previous AVR and it doesn't.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #7938 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Well it's partly because you had your subwoofers gain set too high on the initial Audyssey setup because a-12dB level offset is the limits of the receivers ability to tell how much they had to lower it to get to Reference level. -11.5dB and down is where that offset should have been set . Ideally a -5dB post Audyssey sub level offset is average. Yours could have been lowered 15dB for all we know since-12dB is the receivers limit to display. That low of an offset means its harder to get the line level signal to your subs input. Room correction takes up headroom but taking up as much headroom as it takes to limit levels that low means something might have been wrong in the initial setup causing Audyssey to over correct for things in the room that weren't important to correct for at the main listening position. Also depending on how much you raised the sub levels afterwards affects things as well. Probably need to rerun Audyssey all 8 mic positions with a lower gain setting on your subs plate amp. End up with a -6dB or sub offset afterwards and you won't have to raise them as much to get good sounding bass. Just keep any raised sub level under 0dB offset in the test tone section.
Thanks, I will re-run Audyssey calibration. When I do the sub level matching, what db level should both be set at before continuing the calibration?
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post #7939 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 06:45 AM
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What is the best method of EQ'ing an X3500H? Is it the GEQ within the AVR, the app or something else?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #7940 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 07:51 AM
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Good question.
The app gives you a lot of options that you don't get by calibrating directly in the AVR.
Which one is more accurate or better also would like to know
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post #7941 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
What is the best method of EQ'ing an X3500H? Is it the GEQ within the AVR, the app or something else?

I choose the app because it allows one to make adjustments to the target curve and the frequency range for automatic EQ (I limit to 500 Hz). If you don't have REW, the before correction FR plot can be helpful to identify nulls or other defects.
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post #7942 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 08:42 AM
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Dynamic Volume.

Okay, here's a question that I can't find anywhere in this thread. Dynamic Volume: Is this the same as "night mode" on most other electronics? In other words, does it control loud passages of sound by compressing the dynamics? I would like a feature that could squash the volume on unbelievably loud commercials, but I certainly do not want any cinematic dynamics compressed in the process.
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post #7943 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mborner View Post
Okay, here's a question that I can't find anywhere in this thread. Dynamic Volume: Is this the same as "night mode" on most other electronics? In other words, does it control loud passages of sound by compressing the dynamics? I would like a feature that could squash the volume on unbelievably loud commercials, but I certainly do not want any cinematic dynamics compressed in the process.
Dynamic Volume both attenuates loud explosions/bangs as well as boosts lower level dialog so is similar to "night mode".
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post #7944 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 11:02 AM
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My X3500 has received two firmware updates since the last one noted on the first page of this thread (3/12). Does anyone have any info on what these firmware updates actually did?
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post #7945 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman1000 View Post
Thanks, I will re-run Audyssey calibration. When I do the sub level matching, what db level should both be set at before continuing the calibration?
Welcome. Audyssey wants sub levels set to about 75dB on measurement 3 before finishing but you can ignore that and set levels a few dB higher like around 83 or so and this should result in the post Audyssey sub level offset around -6 or -8dB instead of -12dB plus. From there you can boost the sub levels under test tones 4 to 6dB and still stay under 0dB for headroom yet have a bit of bass boost without eating up all your headroom.

Kind of an in the middle type of thing. Otherwise you could just follow Audyssey's 75dB recommend and probably have a sub level offset of -3dB or so with less bass boost headroom built in to the receivers per amp output. Basically there's an inverse relationship between the pre Audyssey subwoof gain knob setting and the post Audyssey sub level offset. Raise the former to high and the latter gets lowered to conform to Reference level for bass. Raising it a bit higher before hand is kind of a hack to gain some headroom and add a bit of bass boost afterwards.
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post #7946 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I had tried multiple listening volumes. I typically set the MV to the relative dB format (0dB is reference I think?). I will try Dynamic EQ and adjust the ref level. What does the ref level do?
Got it. Thats correct. basically RLO fools Dynamic EQ into thinking your levels are set higher thsn they actually are and attenuates the amount of bass and treble correction so as to not run as hot for things like music. For movies the default is 0dB RLO but for some that makes their surrounds to boomy so they either lower their levels independently or they pick a different RLO to attenuate DEQ's bass boost. Listening closer to Reference level also attenuates DEQ to the point of -10dB Relative having almost no boost whatsoever because the listening levels are more in line with the Equal Loudness Curve/Fletcher Munsen.


Quote:
The thing that is the most bothersome is that I would have thought that disabling all audyssey settings would produce a similar sound as my previous AVR and it doesn't.
Yeah that is kind of strange. Dont really have much of an answer for that one. It's basically the amplification, speakers and the room you are listening in Direct mode. You would have had to been listening to a similar mode in the Sony as well with no EQ or other filters in the chain. Not familiar with Sony's in house version of that though or if they even have one. The thing I do know is sometimes it takes multiple Audyssey runs with varying mic locations before the sound gets to where each individual wants it. Took 3 for me. I used a close mic pattern finally and that one finally was the ticket for my ears. First one sounded horrible.
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Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #7947 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 04:56 PM
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What is the best method of EQ'ing an X3500H? Is it the GEQ within the AVR, the app or something else?
The MultEQ app. The built in GEQ is severely limited in the fact that it can only raise or lower levels at set frequencies and not a wider range like a PEQ can. GEQ's work ok in a car stereo but not so much in home audio.
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post #7948 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 06:41 PM
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Welcome. Audyssey wants sub levels set to about 75dB on measurement 3 before finishing but you can ignore that and set levels a few dB higher like around 83 or so and this should result in the post Audyssey sub level offset around -6 or -8dB instead of -12dB plus. From there you can boost the sub levels under test tones 4 to 6dB and still stay under 0dB for headroom yet have a bit of bass boost without eating up all your headroom.

Kind of an in the middle type of thing. Otherwise you could just follow Audyssey's 75dB recommend and probably have a sub level offset of -3dB or so with less bass boost headroom built in to the receivers per amp output. Basically there's an inverse relationship between the pre Audyssey subwoof gain knob setting and the post Audyssey sub level offset. Raise the former to high and the latter gets lowered to conform to Reference level for bass. Raising it a bit higher before hand is kind of a hack to gain some headroom and add a bit of bass boost afterwards.
Thanks for the info. I had overlooked the fact that the subs were running hotter than 75 db and I did set them to that level using subwoofer matching function. I recalibrated and then turn up the subs a little and the whole system sounds fantastic. I'm running 11.2 atmos and still experimenting. I can't figure out how to get the sound from my LG OLED to the receiver. I have the input to the receiver on HDMI 2 which is the ARC input but even when I go into the TV's settings and set the output to ARC, I get no sound. I'm still playing with it. I know I can use optical but I believe only HDMI can carry atmos signals so that's why I'm trying that.
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post #7949 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 07:25 PM
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My old question got buried, so I thought I’d try again and see if anyone has suggestions:
Using a 4500. Main room runs a projector, outside the theater is a “concession area” (aka popcorn machine) with a 40” TV.
I used to use a splitter to mirror the projector with my old AVR. The only downside to the splitter as that I was unable to watch 3D without disconnecting the 40” TV.

I tried this by using Monitor 2 on the 4500, and it turns my theater sound to stereo only, which is not going to work. It does however allow my to still watch 3D.

Is there a way to do what I want to do without needing to add a a splitter? Seems like this should be easy?

Thanks guys!

-Aaron
English Way Cinema and Bar - moving on to v3.0... projector time in 2017!
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post #7950 of 8539 Old 05-27-2020, 08:53 PM
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Denon AVR-X4500H/Crown XTI 6002 help please

I just want to start off by saying that home audio is a new world for me. I recently acquired a SI HST18 and a SI HT18. I purchased a Crown XTI 6002 to run these because it seemed like it had enough power for both. I hooked it up today and it’s almost like the sub is non-existent. I checked with a DMM and the sub is wired to 4 ohms where it should be. I posted in a Facebook group asking about this and a couple people mentioned it could be because I’m using a pro amp with a consumer AVR (I didn’t even know there was a difference), and other people are saying they use pro amps with consumer AVR’s without a problem... What am I doing wrong? I just ordered a Rolls MB15B which was suggested by the Crown tech to boost the input sensitivity.

Things I’ve tried so far:
Hooked both subs to both channels
Hooked one sub up in bridged mode (and changed settings accordingly)
Different input sources (Bluetooth audio, TV audio, firestick)
Turned the gain all the way up and changed sub out to +10 dB for a temporary test

So far with everything I’ve tried nothing works. Not sure if I’m missing a setting somewhere or the input sensitivity really is just the issue.

Thanks in advance for the help!
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