"OFFICIAL" 2018 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 4223 Old 10-02-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ed3120 View Post
Menus over 4K. Yay! That's what I've been waiting for. I just need a 7 channel model with Atmos. I'm upgrading from a 7 year old AVR-1712 with Audyssey XT. Does the type of Audyssey really make a significant difference in sound quality?


I'm looking at 3 models/pricepoints with Audyssey being the only real differentiator for me:
  • S740H - MSRP $479 - With regular Audyssey (I presume a step down from what I currently have)
  • X1500H - MSRP $599 - With Audyssey XT
  • X3500H - MSRP $999 - With "much better audio quality using the much more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT32"

Is it worth extra money just to step up to Audyssey XT32? I only have one sub, so I don't think I would benefit from Sub EQ HT.
If you can wait till the 4th quarter after a new receiver is announced, you can get substantial savings. I picked up a AVR-X4500H for 45% discount at a big box store with full 3 year warranty.
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post #842 of 4223 Old 10-02-2018, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
A few days later on this party, but this is not true. I'm not sure how you "know" this but the IMAX immersive layout is basically a 7.1.4 Atmos layout with a "center height" channel above the screen -- for home this CH will be delivered as a single static object accompanying the DTS:X 7.1.4 mix.

So the typical 7.1.4 speaker layout with LCR, side surrounds, back surrounds, and four overheads will work just fine for IMAX immersive audio mixes.
I would never presume to contradict someone with such knowledge But to clarify, when I said that the DTS:X configuration was different from Atmos, I only meant the "nomenclature and implementations" side of things, such as D&M which forces people to reconfigure between listening to Atmos and listening to DTS:X, if you want to use Audyssey. For people with 2015 models, this is a 10-minute operation and extremely painful.

[edit: by a happy coincidence, I see that the CH location is on the DTS picture! ]
ie
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post #843 of 4223 Old 10-02-2018, 04:19 PM
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Ah yes, re-reading your comment I thought you were saying you "knew" what the IMAX layout would be. I see now you meant specifically DTS:X vs. Atmos and how people are "forced to choose" between Tops vs. Heights. We are on the same page now
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post #844 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
I would never presume to contradict someone with such knowledge But to clarify, when I said that the DTS:X configuration was different from Atmos, I only meant the "nomenclature and implementations" side of things, such as D&M which forces people to reconfigure between listening to Atmos and listening to DTS:X, if you want to use Audyssey. For people with 2015 models, this is a 10-minute operation and extremely painful.

[edit: by a happy coincidence, I see that the CH location is on the DTS picture! ]
ie
I just ordered my x6500 and this will be my first experience with any of the new audio tech for height speakers. I have a current 7.1 layout and will be adding 4x RSL 34e that from reading the manual and other information I thought I would set as top front and top rear. Seeing this post made me aware that this might be an issue with supporting both Atmos and DTS:X at the same time? I have used audyssey on my current onkyo and love it but have never seen anything about multiple profiles on my onkyo or in the Denon manual. I definitely plan to keep using audyssey. Could you please explain how that works or what I will need to do to enjoy both Atmos and DTS:x in my soon to be 7.1.4 setup?

If there is a link to information that would be fine as well. The main audyssey/Atmos/DTS threads are huge and would take me forever to read all of them to see if it's been explained already.

Thanks
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post #845 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
I just ordered my x6500 and this will be my first experience with any of the new audio tech for height speakers. I have a current 7.1 layout and will be adding 4x RSL 34e that from reading the manual and other information I thought I would set as top front and top rear. Seeing this post made me aware that this might be an issue with supporting both Atmos and DTS:X at the same time? I have used audyssey on my current onkyo and love it but have never seen anything about multiple profiles on my onkyo or in the Denon manual. I definitely plan to keep using audyssey. Could you please explain how that works or what I will need to do to enjoy both Atmos and DTS:x in my soon to be 7.1.4 setup?

If there is a link to information that would be fine as well. The main audyssey/Atmos/DTS threads are huge and would take me forever to read all of them to see if it's been explained already.

Thanks
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a speaker layout FAQ. I suspect that's partially because the "universal" layout is so simple while the explanation is complicated.

To be specific, the x.x.4 universal overhead speaker designations are Front Height and Rear Height. They'll work with all four 3D audio decoders, including the upcoming IMAX Enhanced format (which is not yet available). Top Front and Top Rear are optimal for Atmos. The designations don't have to be related to where the speakers are physically located.

Unfortunately, unlike Yamaha, D&M has not implemented multiple profiles within the receiver. Instead, you have to save and restore the current settings to and from either a USB thumb drive (takes ~1 minute) or using the Web interface (takes ~10 minutes), depending on the model of device that you have.
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post #846 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 09:25 AM
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With all of these receivers now supporting multiple codecs it seems crazy to me that the devices themselves would not adapt to the physical install location of the speakers. I cant imagine anyone installing overhead speakers and saying "I just want Atmos!" or "I just want DTS:X!" I'm not going to switch my purchase from Denon but to me this seems like a pretty easy firmware update to allow the user to "tie" front and rear height to top front and top rear. That way both Atmos and DTS:X can live side by side in harmony which I would already assume to be the case when you advertise support for both. Same goes to Auro3d but I was just leaving them out of the conversation for simplicity sake.
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post #847 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
With all of these receivers now supporting multiple codecs it seems crazy to me that the devices themselves would not adapt to the physical install location of the speakers. I cant imagine anyone installing overhead speakers and saying "I just want Atmos!" or "I just want DTS:X!" I'm not going to switch my purchase from Denon but to me this seems like a pretty easy firmware update to allow the user to "tie" front and rear height to top front and top rear. That way both Atmos and DTS:X can live side by side in harmony which I would already assume to be the case when you advertise support for both. Same goes to Auro3d but I was just leaving them out of the conversation for simplicity sake.
There are devices which can do this, but they cost a lot more. My understanding is that the Trinnov Altitude pre/pros can, for example.

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post #848 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 10:08 AM
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There are devices which can do this, but they cost a lot more. My understanding is that the Trinnov Altitude pre/pros can, for example.
So does the 99% of the population who does not run a Trinnov or any other $5000+ processor just either stick to one of the audio codecs or constantly switch profiles by reloading?
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post #849 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 10:27 AM
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So does the 99% of the population who does not run a Trinnov or any other $5000+ processor just either stick to one of the audio codecs or constantly switch profiles by reloading?
Yamaha devices can store several profiles internally, but my understanding is that you still have to select them manually. However, their proprietary roomEQ doesn't seem to be able to do quite as good a job of EQing the subwoofer as Audyssey can.

The sub-$5K devices all have compromises in their designs. You have to decide which ones bother you the least.
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post #850 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 10:53 AM
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So back to my question about normal usage, and this may be best discussed in one of the audio format threads, but if I setup for Atmos and I play a .mkv movie with auro3d or DTS:X will it fall back to a non-object oriented codec or can it be mixed to Atmos on the fly? Newbie questions sorry.
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post #851 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
So does the 99% of the population who does not run a Trinnov or any other $5000+ processor just either stick to one of the audio codecs or constantly switch profiles by reloading?
well, realistically, 99% of the population doesn’t care.

so it really isn’t a feature that is high on the list.
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post #852 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 11:23 AM
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well, realistically, 99% of the population doesn’t care.

so it really isn’t a feature that is high on the list.
Sad but probably true.
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post #853 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
So back to my question about normal usage, and this may be best discussed in one of the audio format threads, but if I setup for Atmos and I play a .mkv movie with auro3d or DTS:X will it fall back to a non-object oriented codec or can it be mixed to Atmos on the fly? Newbie questions sorry.
Atmos is Dolby's proprietary on-disk/in-file 3D audio encoding. You can't upmix other encodings to make them into Atmos.

However, if you select the DTS Neural:X upmixer, then all of your overhead speakers will be used, although not as the director of the movie or music video intended.

The video container file format is irrelevant: it can be mkv, m2ts or mp4. You do need to play them through a compatible video player device (e.g. from USB or over DLNA through a compatible Blu-ray disc player or PC) which is connected to the receiver using HDMI, since the receiver can't decode video. Sometimes the receiver can play the embedded soundtrack on its own, but my experience with that has been inconsistent.

Other manufacturers might have different limitations. I have the vague and perhaps mistaken recollection that some of Sony's receivers can play video files.

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post #854 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
So does the 99% of the population who does not run a Trinnov or any other $5000+ processor just either stick to one of the audio codecs or constantly switch profiles by reloading?
Neither! First, I don't think most people realise the problem; it is very technical and we didn't have that diagram for ages when it first came to light

Next, I think what they do is what I plan to do. Pick one (Atmos, since there is FAR FAR more content), and then have the other one sounding "compromised" - as in the picture, some DTS:X sound will bleed out of the front speakers some of the time. This is more noticeable in "test tones" which tell you which speaker location is supposed to be active, than it is in real content. Apparently.

Anyway since the amount of Atmos massively swamps DTS:X content, it's a very easy decision; I'll be using Top Front and Top Rear.
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post #855 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 02:30 PM
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Neither! First, I don't think most people realise the problem; it is very technical and we didn't have that diagram for ages when it first came to light

Next, I think what they do is what I plan to do. Pick one (Atmos, since there is FAR FAR more content), and then have the other one sounding "compromised" - as in the picture, some DTS:X sound will bleed out of the front speakers some of the time. This is more noticeable in "test tones" which tell you which speaker location is supposed to be active, than it is in real content. Apparently.

Anyway since the amount of Atmos massively swamps DTS:X content, it's a very easy decision; I'll be using Top Front and Top Rear.
I did some googling and found some comments in the audio theory section that also explained it that way and it definitely helps me understand what the real world impact is. Basically if you physically setup your speaker placement for Atmos it will play sounds out of the speakers as the audio mixing engineers intended while playing Atmos tracks. If you play DTS:X it will try to simulate the sounds where the DTS:X speaker placement should have been and create a phantom sound image.

If you were to reverse the situation and physically setup speaker placement for DTS:X it would try to create a phantom sound image for Atmos tracks coming from where the Atmos physical speaker placement would be.

Now that I understand how that is working I am perfectly ok with virtualization of the ideal physical placement of the DTS:X speakers when playing DTS:X tracks on my physical Atmos speaker position setup. As you said, there is far less DTS:X content so doing speaker placement and receiver setup for Atmos makes the most sense to me as well
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post #856 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 03:17 PM
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There are devices which can do this, but they cost a lot more. My understanding is that the Trinnov Altitude pre/pros can, for example.
Yup, you have a separate Speaker Configuration by codec, so you can have the same physical speaker locations defined as top fronts for Atmos and front heights for DTS:X (or vice versa), and likewise for the top rears/rear heights. I also use this functionality with the Altitude to set my physical top middles to play a T (VOG) for Auromatic 3D upmixing, producing a phantom center image overhead. That would be handy for actual Auro content, were it to exist for the US market at a non-trivial level.

Likewise you could have a speaker defined as CH for DTS:X, if the time comes when "Imax Enhanced DTS" is added to the Trinnov and can be rendered (or post-processed) to be played by that speaker.

BTW I disagree that having multiple presets is only for the elite. With those movies that put a pair of stereo overhead objects in the top middles mostly if not exclusively (think Saving Private Ryan, it's useful to switch between a .6 height setup where the three pairs are played more evenly or mixed mostly toward the front and rear overheads, and those movies where a .4 setup may be desirable because that otherwise static top middle would wind up being split between the front and rear height pairs.

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post #857 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 03:25 PM
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well, realistically, 99% of the population doesn’t care.

so it really isn’t a feature that is high on the list.
But they should. I'm not a DSP programmer but if you're going to have a flagship, it's one way to differentiate your higher end processor from the lower end ones in your line.

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post #858 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 03:39 PM
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I did some googling and found some comments in the audio theory section that also explained it that way and it definitely helps me understand what the real world impact is. Basically if you physically setup your speaker placement for Atmos it will play sounds out of the speakers as the audio mixing engineers intended while playing Atmos tracks. If you play DTS:X it will try to simulate the sounds where the DTS:X speaker placement should have been and create a phantom sound image.

If you were to reverse the situation and physically setup speaker placement for DTS:X it would try to create a phantom sound image for Atmos tracks coming from where the Atmos physical speaker placement would be.
Yes, that is it exactly

Quote:
Now that I understand how that is working I am perfectly ok with virtualization of the ideal physical placement of the DTS:X speakers when playing DTS:X tracks on my physical Atmos speaker position setup. As you said, there is far less DTS:X content so doing speaker placement and receiver setup for Atmos makes the most sense to me as well
Cool. Yes. I tried to explain it in the text on the right side of the diagram above, but it's a lot to fit into that space. But if you re-read it now after already understanding it, hopefully you'll see what it meant
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post #859 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 04:17 PM
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Yes, that is it exactly



Cool. Yes. I tried to explain it in the text on the right side of the diagram above, but it's a lot to fit into that space. But if you re-read it now after already understanding it, hopefully you'll see what it meant
Yes it's all clear now that I knows what's going on. Thanks! 👍
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post #860 of 4223 Old 10-03-2018, 09:03 PM
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Cool. Yes. I tried to explain it in the text on the right side of the diagram above, but it's a lot to fit into that space. But if you re-read it now after already understanding it, hopefully you'll see what it meant

I guess I've always viewed the that slide from the DTS:X dealer-show-and-tell presentation as something of a simplification. The more detailed graphics DTS released of mdacreator screens seem to suggest that the speaker position info on the conceptual hemispheres should only be used for Azimuth and Elevation angle settings . . . and that the x,y [horizontal plane] position some have inferred from the slide are not real (except in a hemispherical theater!)

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Neither! First, I don't think most people realise the problem; it is very technical and we didn't have that diagram for ages when it first came to light

Next, I think what they do is what I plan to do. Pick one (Atmos, since there is FAR FAR more content), and then have the other one sounding "compromised" - as in the picture, some DTS:X sound will bleed out of the front speakers some of the time. This is more noticeable in "test tones" which tell you which speaker location is supposed to be active, than it is in real content. Apparently.

Anyway since the amount of Atmos massively swamps DTS:X content, it's a very easy decision; I'll be using Top Front and Top Rear.
Unless of course one prefers using DTS Neural:X (as many of us do) and therefore we use "FH + RH."
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post #862 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 04:28 AM
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Unless of course one prefers using DTS Neural:X (as many of us do) and therefore we use "FH + RH."
So do you have your speakers physically installed in the DTS position for FH+RH or are they positioned per the Atmos spec?

My theater layout and limited ceiling height already pretty much forces me to use the FT and RT from Atmos. I have very little ceiling height above my current surrounds with my second row on a riser and I have a 10in soffit bordering my room so I have to pull the ceiling speakers inward already which works fine for the Atmos positioning but no so much for the FH+RH.

Interested to hear your thoughts on what you like more about the DTS Neural:X versus I'm assuming dolby surround upmixing. I will try both out but I'm curious to know if physical speaker placement plays a role in your preference.

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post #863 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 10:31 AM
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If you can wait till the 4th quarter after a new receiver is announced, you can get substantial savings. I picked up a AVR-X4500H for 45% discount at a big box store with full 3 year warranty.
New receivers will not be announced until next June-ish......
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post #864 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 10:49 AM
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Unless of course one prefers using DTS Neural:X (as many of us do) and therefore we use "FH + RH."
True, but I was talking about genuine Atmos and not up-mixing.

If you have zero Atmos and zero DTS:X content, then it's a different question
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post #865 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 03:56 PM
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DENON AVR-X4500H Video Pass-through

hi. first off, I want to apologize if this had already been asked here. it's just that this beast is so huge that I can't find my way inside it. I hope you'll allow this.

I'm in the market for a new AVR and have been looking at the AVR-X4500H. it has everything I need, but one thing that's not entirely specified and that I also need is full, pure, complete video pass-through.

the advertised features/specs do make note of 4K Video Pass-through, which is good, but I just need to make sure that it goes all the way. that means no processing is applied to the video signal, whatsoever. no OSD, no GUI, volume indication, menus, etc. - just the pure video signal routed through and passing to the output. --- the reason for all this is because my setup is aimed at minimal input lag, and I don't want to introduce any additional latency with adding the device to the chain.

I had gotten in touch with DENON customer service, with the above question, and what they said was literally: "That is only done when using HDMI Passthrough only." --- now, I couldn't understand if that was a "yes" or a "yes, but..." or even a "no". to me it's not an elaborate enough reply on which to base an $1,500 purchase on.

I understand that there's a Passthrough option in the AVR's settings menu that allows the video signal to be sent directly to the output even when the AVR is off, which probably means video processing will not occur, but it also means audio will not be routed through to the speakers connected to the AVR. --- what if I do want the AVR to stay ON, and the audio to be routed to the speakers, but have complete video passthrough, zero video processing, and zero added latency at the output, can I get that through any means using the AVR-X4500H?

a mouthful, I know. and I really appreciate you taking the time to read through. thank you very much!
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post #866 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 05:04 PM
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You can completely disable Video Conversion which will totally bypass the video circuits -- no overlays, no GUI, no nothing.
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post #867 of 4223 Old 10-04-2018, 05:49 PM
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You can completely disable Video Conversion which will totally bypass the video circuits -- no overlays, no GUI, no nothing.
that's.. perfect. thank you. and this is definitely true with the specific X4500H model? also, do you happen to know if that also ends up at zero latency being added at the output? any chance this was tested with a lag meter?
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post #868 of 4223 Old 10-05-2018, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
So do you have your speakers physically installed in the DTS position for FH+RH or are they positioned per the Atmos spec?

My theater layout and limited ceiling height already pretty much forces me to use the FT and RT from Atmos. I have very little ceiling height above my current surrounds with my second row on a riser and I have a 10in soffit bordering my room so I have to pull the ceiling speakers inward already which works fine for the Atmos positioning but no so much for the FH+RH.

Interested to hear your thoughts on what you like more about the DTS Neural:X versus I'm assuming dolby surround upmixing. I will try both out but I'm curious to know if physical speaker placement plays a role in your preference.

Edit: Been awhile since I did much forum posting and I guess I don't know how to embed and image so its now and attachment.
I have a small room so didn't pay any attention to either spec. They went in where they fit.
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post #869 of 4223 Old 10-05-2018, 03:43 AM
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I need help understanding Denon sound modes

I have the avrx2500. It has the Movies, Music, Game, Pure quick select buttons with the usual Dolby/DTS under each.

What do they do? I was watching cable tv and it was stuck on Music. I generally get the underlying coding categories, which for the most part I want auto selected.

Are these some type of EQ? How should they be selected?
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post #870 of 4223 Old 10-05-2018, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ozshadow View Post
I need help understanding Denon sound modes

I have the avrx2500. It has the Movies, Music, Game, Pure quick select buttons with the usual Dolby/DTS under each.

What do they do? I was watching cable tv and it was stuck on Music. I generally get the underlying coding categories, which for the most part I want auto selected.

Are these some type of EQ? How should they be selected?
The Movie, Music and Game buttons are just 3 separate memories for the Sound Modes that you like to apply. A brief press on any one of those buttons recalls whichever Sound Mode you'd previously selected when using a longer press on that particular button to invoke the popup menu. The names of the buttons are just for your convenience. Also, Sound Modes are remembered separately for each of the different inputs. You can use any of those three buttons to invoke one of a variety of Sound Modes, including (for example) Dolby Surround to upmix incoming audio to use all of your speakers, or Stereo to downmix multichannel soundtracks so they use just your Front Main speakers.

The Pure button is quite different.

The first press of the Pure button selects Direct. That disables all Sound Modes and all other digital processing, too, including Audyssey and Bass Management. It sends the channels of the incoming soundtrack directly to the associated speakers with no manipulation. (e.g. if you're playing a stereo (2.0) soundtrack, only the Front Left and Front Right speakers will produce sound. All other speakers will be silent.) Because no processing is being applied, you'll hear the music as if it were being performed in your room, with all of the frequency distortions and reflections that Audyssey tries to remove.

The second press of the Pure button invokes Pure Direct, which disables most the video circuitry, too. This is to minimize the possibility of the video circuitry introducing any noise into the audio. In modern, high quality A/V equipment, however, you won't actually notice any difference in the quality of the sound when you use Pure Direct.

The third press of the Pure button (misleadingly called Auto) disables the Direct options and re-enables all digital processing. It turns Audyssey and Bass Management back on and returns to whatever Sound Mode you'd been using previously.
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