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post #151 of 184 Old 04-19-2020, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
It is possible to switch between pulse or toggle switching
Not if I correctly understand what you are asking.

The main front power switch completely controls power to the amp. But when switching that on, power is then available but the amp does NOT turn on. In order to do that, either you need the appropriate signal on the Crestron port signal wires (and good luck deconstructing Crestron's proprietary network protocol) or a momentary press on the Bypass/Override button. As I said previously, holding that button down does not power up the amp. That only occurs when when you release the button which is therefore momentary action, not a toggle or latching in any way as that would not work.

I thought long and hard about this. I just wanted a trigger input that would power it on and off in sync with my pre/pro/AVR. Unfortunately all AVRs with a trigger output I've looked at use 12v, but converting the Crestron amp to use 12v instead of 24v would be way more complicated than is worthwhile. So since my AVR trigger output already switches on a power strip (for other equipment) I simply plugged a 24v wallwart into that so effectively have a 24v trigger signal. This is then perfect for switching the Crestron on and off with the AVR. So when the AVR is off, the Crestron uses NO power.

There have been other methods to achieve this. The first I looked at involved removal of each channel's power relay and other stuff that was more than I wanted to do. Similarly, a recent solution is to solder some wires to the Crestron board so each amp module just gets power directly, but in that case you're eliminating all Crestron's carefully designed protection circuitry. Hopefully that would not be an issue, but not a solution with which I'd be comfortable and it also disables the bypass/override button action.

I ended up designing a small board with some caps etc that on receiving power (from the 24v trigger) momentarily bridges the bypass/override button connection, thereby simulating a short button press that therefore causes the amp to fully power up, with all the protection circuitry fully enabled. Basically the Crestron circuitry cannot distinguish between what my board does and a real button press. Plus, when the 24v is live, the bypass/override button can still be used. So at any time once running a quick press will turn it off and conversely another press will turn the amp back on just as Crestron designed. My board ONLY operates when the amp first receives the 24v trigger signal.

Not trying to convince anyone, but I thought long and hard about the best way to do this and no other method I've come across is so unintrusive into the amp's electronics. It can of course be reversed in a matter of seconds once the cover is off as there's no butchering of the original parts. My board simply piggybacks onto the existing Crestron control board.

All it requires is some strip board and the components which cost peanuts. If you have a soldering iron, you could put it together. I've previously uploaded the plans/schematic somewhere but am happy to do so again if anyone needs.

Look, if anyone is desperate and wants to send their Crestron control board (from the 16 ch. amp) to me and pay me to modify it, I'll do it. How much would it be worth? How many people would want this?

They are a great amp. Although I have a second one so I could bridge all channels (therefore 16 x 200W), in fact I've not yet done so as with the standard rated 60W/ch I have NEVER used anywhere near full volume. That would be way too loud. I believe that 60W is with ALL channels running, so the amps are certainly not lacking in power.
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post #152 of 184 Old 04-19-2020, 10:37 AM
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Thanks for all the explanation that you have provided. I will consider your setup as well. I have everything to build electronics, that is my hobby.

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post #153 of 184 Old 04-19-2020, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
Thanks for all the explanation that you have provided. I will consider your setup as well. I have everything to build electronics, that is my hobby.
No problem for you then.

One thing I have found over the years of working with AV and IR control stuff is the best and most reliable operation is achieved with control by direct connection. So an actual trigger connection between devices will always work, 100% of the time. But IR is flaky, especially when a macro is supposed to turn on multiple devices. If it partially fails due to e.g. not being pointed in exactly the right direction, so some equipment turns on and some does not, then the entire control system falls apart as it has to assume that everything worked correctly. IR being one direction is very limited and having used Harmonys for some years I gave up in the end. Although they may include IP now which would be much better.

What I'm saying in a rather long winded way is that once you have two devices (AVR/Pre/pro and power amp) linked together with a wired trigger connection, that will be far more reliable than any IR control can ever be. Likewise, wired ethernet is bulletproof. WiFi? Not so much.
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post #154 of 184 Old 04-19-2020, 12:14 PM
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I completely agree with you on wiring everything, that is possible. I'm running Ethernet cable to every device that I have, including my video surveillance cameras.
I have a hub with the Harmony, it works more reliably that way.

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post #155 of 184 Old 04-19-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
Thanks for all the explanation that you have provided. I will consider your setup as well. I have everything to build electronics, that is my hobby.
buy in bulk and sell here! I will buy two! :-)
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post #156 of 184 Old 04-20-2020, 03:44 PM
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UKenGB, how that trigger works to turn on your 24V power adapter?
What kind of mosfets did you use in that schematic?
There is a switch right after the 5V, what's the purpose of that?

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post #157 of 184 Old 04-21-2020, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
UKenGB, how that trigger works to turn on your 24V power adapter?
What kind of mosfets did you use in that schematic?
There is a switch right after the 5V, what's the purpose of that?
The switch in the diagram is just there in order to test the circuit. The reality is that my board picks up 5V from the Crestron Control board (which regulates down from the 24v supply to power its electronics). The other 2 connections being either side of the bypass/override button (one of which is ground). So just the three wires to solder onto the Crestron board and easy to snip off if you ever wanted to go back to standard.

Then:-

From RS Components:-

Vishay MRS25 Series Axial Thin Film Fixed Resistor 3MΩ ±1% 0.6W ±50ppm/°C
Stock no.:683-3654

Vishay MRS25 Series Axial Thin Film Fixed Resistor 2MΩ ±1% 0.6W ±50ppm/°C
Stock no.:683-3471

Panasonic 1.5μF Polyester Capacitor PET 250V dc ±10% ECQE(F) Series Through Hole
Stock no.:444-021

TK20A25D,S5X(J N-Channel MOSFET, 20 A, 250 V, 3-Pin TO-220SIS Toshiba
Stock no.:144-5200

But RS couldn't supply the P-Channel JFETs I also needed so obtained those on eBay:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252812713508

The attached PDF shows the basic design (I upped the resistor value since then though to improve the timing) and board layout and I've included a pic of the final board in place. There's a gap on the Crestron controller board and I just used some sticky pads to hold my addition in place there.

I cannot remember what I previously said, but basically it mimics a brief hold of the 'Override' button shortly after 24v is applied which causes the amp to fully turn on.

Since I already have a mains powerstrip which is switched on and off by the AVR/Pre amp/Processor's (12v) trigger signal, I just use a 24V DC adapter in one of those sockets. So when I turn on the AVR, the Crestron receives 24v at the trigger input (2 of the 4 pins of the Crestron connector on the back of this board), my board then does its stuff and the amp is fully powered up after a couple of seconds - with the bypass/override button still fully functional in case you need to use it. Turn off the AVR and the loss of the 24v feed just turns the Crestron completely off.

Hopefully, that explains everything.
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post #158 of 184 Old 04-21-2020, 09:31 AM
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Thanks for all that, I will study it further. What I don't understand, how do you trip the strip outlet with the 12V trigger from the processor?

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post #159 of 184 Old 04-21-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
Thanks for all that, I will study it further. What I don't understand, how do you trip the strip outlet with the 12V trigger from the processor?
Ah, years ago I built a box in the cupboard under the AV stack. This contains the 12v trigger input from the AVR and also a main power input and several mains output sockets. In between I have a relay. This is activated by the 12v trigger and switches on the output sockets which can be used for anything that I want switched on and off with the AVR. I use it for a sub and now also for the 24v wallwart.

The only problem I've had with that was with a Yamaha Z9. The trigger output power was only about 10% of what they had previously and have subsequently used. it was unable to even power on the relay. A stupid design decision IMO and they agreed as they changed it back again after that model, to something more usable again. During that time I modified the box with another relay to accept a 240v trigger as the Z9 had a switched power socket on the back and I had to use that.
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post #160 of 184 Old 04-21-2020, 10:29 PM
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@jleonard71 or anyone else who can help...

question: can i run 4ohm rated speakers with Crestron 12x60 in BRIDGED mode? if yes will it damage the amp or the speakers? over powered / under powered? thank you much for any guidance you can give me.

Hi i am about to buy TWO used but functional CNAMPX-12X60 amps and will be following the bridged operation to power 11 channels in my HT. First of all thank you so much for this post, it helped me in learning everything there is to learn about the capability of these amp.

question: all of my speakers are 4 ohm PSB Stratus series speakers and can handled 200+ watts. if i run these amps in bridge mode, i take it that my Marantz pre-amp volume must really be kept under check... to not kill the speakers. how much power will my speakers be getting (max scenario). the manual says 220w for 8ohm. thanks,
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post #161 of 184 Old 04-22-2020, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by niadh0 View Post
@jleonard71 or anyone else who can help...

question: can i run 4ohm rated speakers with Crestron 12x60 in BRIDGED mode? if yes will it damage the amp or the speakers? over powered / under powered? thank you much for any guidance you can give me.

Hi i am about to buy TWO used but functional CNAMPX-12X60 amps and will be following the bridged operation to power 11 channels in my HT. First of all thank you so much for this post, it helped me in learning everything there is to learn about the capability of these amp.

question: all of my speakers are 4 ohm PSB Stratus series speakers and can handled 200+ watts. if i run these amps in bridge mode, i take it that my Marantz pre-amp volume must really be kept under check... to not kill the speakers. how much power will my speakers be getting (max scenario). the manual says 220w for 8ohm. thanks,
See the other thread in which you asked the same question. However, I'll repeat it here.

According to the 16x60 User Guide:-

Code:
90 Watts/Channel into 4 ohm loads 220 Watts/Channel Bridged
This would imply that bridged operation into 4 Ohms speakers is fine and I think all the Crestron amps of this style use the same basic amp module, so the above should apply to all. Having said that, I don't have the docs for anything other than the 16x60.
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post #162 of 184 Old 04-22-2020, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UKenGB View Post
See the other thread in which you asked the same question. However, I'll repeat it here.

According to the 16x60 User Guide:-

Code:
90 Watts/Channel into 4 ohm loads 220 Watts/Channel Bridged
This would imply that bridged operation into 4 Ohms speakers is fine and I think all the Crestron amps of this style use the same basic amp module, so the above should apply to all. Having said that, I don't have the docs for anything other than the 16x60.
WHOA there big guy, you are leaving out a KEY piece of info there! The manual states:

220 watts at 8 ohms bridged (channels 1-4 and 9-12 only; requires CNXBRMO, sold separately)

I would bet dollars to donuts that the amp might very well work with 8 channels bridged driving a four ohm load, but i also would be that it will turn into a space heater realllllll quick if driving those speakers hard! Also, I would seriously question the longevity of the amp if used like that!
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post #163 of 184 Old 04-22-2020, 05:28 AM
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WHOA there big guy, you are leaving out a KEY piece of info there! The manual states:

220 watts at 8 ohms bridged (channels 1-4 and 9-12 only; requires CNXBRMO, sold separately)

I would bet dollars to donuts that the amp might very well work with 8 channels bridged driving a four ohm load, but i also would be that it will turn into a space heater realllllll quick if driving those speakers hard! Also, I would seriously question the longevity of the amp if used like that!
That's not what my manual states which is:-

60 Watts/Channel into 8 ohm loads, all
channels driven, 20Hz to 20KHz, at rated THD


90 Watts/Channel into 4 ohm loads
220 Watts/Channel Bridged
This groups the Bridged spec next to the 4 Ohm load line which to me, implies that 220W Bridged means into a 4 Ohm load. I agree they could have made it clearer.
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post #164 of 184 Old 04-22-2020, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by UKenGB View Post
That's not what my manual states which is:-

60 Watts/Channel into 8 ohm loads, all
channels driven, 20Hz to 20KHz, at rated THD


90 Watts/Channel into 4 ohm loads
220 Watts/Channel Bridged
This groups the Bridged spec next to the 4 Ohm load line which to me, implies that 220W Bridged means into a 4 Ohm load. I agree they could have made it clearer.
I pulled it from the website, but it was also printed the same way in my manual..Apparently there was a revision or two along the way..

https://www.crestron.com/Products/In...M/CNAMPX-12X60

But I stand by my guess that this beast will probably work driving 4 ohm speakers but it will be a space heater. We have a couple of guys running them bridged into 8 ohm loads and they report it runs hot!
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post #165 of 184 Old 04-22-2020, 07:45 PM
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I asked ATI about bridging with 4 Ohm speakers and they did not recommend it.


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post #166 of 184 Old 04-23-2020, 03:58 AM
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I asked ATI about bridging with 4 Ohm speakers and they did not recommend it...
Good job I have 8 Ohm speakers then.
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post #167 of 184 Old 04-23-2020, 07:54 AM
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UKenGB, I'm buying the parts for that board. I couldn't find the TK20A25, instead I'm getting the TK20A60. Everything else is available at Digikey.
I have one question, what side breadboard should I purchase?

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post #168 of 184 Old 04-23-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
UKenGB, I'm buying the parts for that board. I couldn't find the TK20A25, instead I'm getting the TK20A60. Everything else is available at Digikey.
I have one question, what side breadboard should I purchase?
This should have the pdf attached that shows the actual board layout. You can count the size of the board. It's only small.

This pdf should have been attached to an earlier post, but it doesn't seem to be there.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Crestron ByPass.pdf (717.9 KB, 18 views)
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post #169 of 184 Old 04-28-2020, 05:55 PM
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just an update that my 11 channel crestron is just a BEAST! Watched several movies over the last week due to the lockdown and it sounds great! Plenty of power in reserve for those intense scenes. Does get a bit warm after several hours and I only have three channels bridged, but nothing crazy...
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post #170 of 184 Old 04-29-2020, 11:21 AM
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It is really needed to bridge those channels?

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post #171 of 184 Old 04-29-2020, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ipca204 View Post
the dsp-408 can do 4 channels, so you would need two for them. It is drop dead simple to use too! My only issue I ran into last night was that if I have the unit set to "wake up" with an RCA signal it takes a few seconds before i can hear the audio. Going to change that today via an automated trigger to just turn it on when my system comes on.
Don't know if ANY dsp will do this, but i am sure there more than a few options out there.

Edit to add: Also figured out a use for that last input on the dsp-408. I route one of my sub outputs from my receiver to it and pass through to the sub on RCA 7, and then I can use output RCA 8 to feed the amp for my clark synthesis transducers. I can also do some parametric eqing and boost the signal a bit too! BONUS!
Right now I have 2 of the Crestron CNAMPX-16X60 and I use 8 of the Henry Matchbox devices to bridge all the channels. It's kind of a mess but it's hidden. I saw your idea with the DSP and it seemed like it would be way cleaner and easier. I get a small hum when I use the Matchbox device too. And I believe it has something to do with the device and the cable to the amp. There just doesn't seem to be a good way to get rid of it. So I was thinking this would be a good solution. So to bridge two of these amps completely I would just need 16 channels of input and 16 channels of output. Are you just using a Y adapter and taking one side into the amp, the other into the DSP & making 180 out of phase, and then just plugging that into the other input on the amp? I was thinking if I can get my hands on something like this at an affordable price then I could just do all the channels of both the amps with one device. https://www.alpine-usa.com/company/p...gnal-processor I still wish there was an easy internal mod we could do lol.
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post #172 of 184 Old 04-30-2020, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dd2424 View Post
Right now I have 2 of the Crestron CNAMPX-16X60 and I use 8 of the Henry Matchbox devices to bridge all the channels. It's kind of a mess but it's hidden. I saw your idea with the DSP and it seemed like it would be way cleaner and easier. I get a small hum when I use the Matchbox device too. And I believe it has something to do with the device and the cable to the amp. There just doesn't seem to be a good way to get rid of it. So I was thinking this would be a good solution. So to bridge two of these amps completely I would just need 16 channels of input and 16 channels of output. Are you just using a Y adapter and taking one side into the amp, the other into the DSP & making 180 out of phase, and then just plugging that into the other input on the amp? I was thinking if I can get my hands on something like this at an affordable price then I could just do all the channels of both the amps with one device. https://www.alpine-usa.com/company/p...gnal-processor I still wish there was an easy internal mod we could do lol.
The way the dsp-408 works is that I feed my L R C from my receiver into "inputs 1 2 3". "Output 1 is the regular signal. Output 2 is 180 degrees out of phase from Output 1 (adjusted in software). Repeat process for the other two channels. I have attached a pic showing the output side of the dsp-408. On the other side of the pic is the L R C input and the power cord. For your scenario you would need FOUR of the Dsp-108's in order to bridge all 32 channels. And if you are running all 16 channels at the same time, I sure hope you have some ventilation!
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post #173 of 184 Old 04-30-2020, 04:46 AM
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It is really needed to bridge those channels?
Define "need"? Do I "need" and external amp? Do I even "need" a projector? THIS IS AVS! "NEED" IS IRRELEVANT! We do it because we can!
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post #174 of 184 Old 05-11-2020, 01:52 PM
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I didn't mean it in a bad way. I'm contemplating, if I should do it or not.
Finally I have build the board, but I haven't tested it yet.
I have purchased the wrong board, which has only vias and no traces at all, but I have managed to connect all the legs together, by just bending the components legs around.

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post #175 of 184 Old 05-13-2020, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibimakai View Post
I didn't mean it in a bad way. I'm contemplating, if I should do it or not.
Finally I have build the board, but I haven't tested it yet.
I have purchased the wrong board, which has only vias and no traces at all, but I have managed to connect all the legs together, by just bending the components legs around.
I'm waiting to buy one once you get it done! :-)
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post #176 of 184 Old 05-16-2020, 08:08 AM
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Hi guys did anyone have any idea what the current draw is on one of these with no audio playing but the amp turned on? i am planing on buying a used cnampx-16x60 and hoocking it up to 8 x Google chromecasts audios would this work in that roil or would it be a huge power drain i am also looking at a PTM-1645 16 Channel 8 Zone Superior Power Amplifier http://www.ada.net/products/av/ptm_1645.php would that work better for my plans with its Low Voltage Triggers?
Thanks Juls
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post #177 of 184 Old 06-10-2020, 11:50 AM
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Has anyone noticed any noise when bridging the amp? I get a small hiss and hum. I got a 16 channel DSP that I'm testing with now. I was using Henry Matchbox devices. I got a fair amount with the Matchbox devices. Significantly less with the DSP but it's still there. If I just turn on the amps and the DSP it's very low. If I turn on the receiver it steps up a bit. If the amps are not bridged then there is none at all. Just wondering if people have listened closely and it's common.
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post #178 of 184 Old 06-10-2020, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd2424 View Post
Has anyone noticed any noise when bridging the amp? I get a small hiss and hum. I got a 16 channel DSP that I'm testing with now. I was using Henry Matchbox devices. I got a fair amount with the Matchbox devices. Significantly less with the DSP but it's still there. If I just turn on the amps and the DSP it's very low. If I turn on the receiver it steps up a bit. If the amps are not bridged then there is none at all. Just wondering if people have listened closely and it's common.
I have no hiss or hum on my three bridged channels... i am using the dayton dsp for bridging..
are your speakers super sensitive, Klipsch?
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post #179 of 184 Old 06-10-2020, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ipca204 View Post
I have no hiss or hum on my three bridged channels... i am using the dayton dsp for bridging..
are your speakers super sensitive, Klipsch?
Deftech BP7000 speakers and the BPVX. Denon AVR-X8500H for the receiver.
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post #180 of 184 Old 06-10-2020, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd2424 View Post
Has anyone noticed any noise when bridging the amp? I get a small hiss and hum. I got a 16 channel DSP that I'm testing with now. I was using Henry Matchbox devices. I got a fair amount with the Matchbox devices. Significantly less with the DSP but it's still there. If I just turn on the amps and the DSP it's very low. If I turn on the receiver it steps up a bit. If the amps are not bridged then there is none at all. Just wondering if people have listened closely and it's common.


I made my own cables for bridging and I have sensitive JTR speakers. I do not notice any hiss.

Mark


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