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post #31 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 04:52 PM
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Short answer, unlikely. Most amps don't work like that...
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post #32 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post
Not a dumb question at all.

Which AVR? I think it really depends on the amplifier design.
any 9.2 AVR. Take the Yamaha RX-A2060 for example.

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
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post #33 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tRidiot View Post
Short answer, unlikely. Most amps don't work like that...

You might want to read the specs of a few AVRs and amplifiers before you post with that info. The FTC specs that every AVR and amp is with "two channels driven". I haven't seen an honest power spec since Harman Kardon decided to quit listing power specs with "All Channels Driven". That was maybe 10 years ago.



Pick any AVR you want, then look at the power specs. If what you say is true then there is no way dynamic power (a dubious spec IMO) can hit somewhere around 2x more than in stereo mode. Dynamic power is with a single speaker load, usually a resistor bank. Each amp channel share the same power source. So, yes they can do that.

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post #34 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 08:51 PM
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Unfortunately, I don't see many manufacturer specs that list what happens to output, distortion, or frequency range when driving 2, 3, 4, or 5 channels.

In the a2060 specs, it does reference dynamic power so perhaps power is being rerouted?

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...0_u/specs.html
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post #35 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 09:26 PM
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Think of voltage available at the power supply with the caps as 'reservoirs', much like a hose with a manifold with 5 hoses connected. With all five valves open each has a relatively equal volume to the other 4. Shut 3 off (stereo!) and the two that are flowing will increase their flow, the limiting factor would be the resistance in the two hoses. Power amps are very similar.



I've attached the results of a bench test for the AVR I own, the Yamaha RX-A2070. Two channels driven delivers a lot of power, when the other 5 are connected up the front L/R has less power available due to the reasons I listed above.
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Yamaha A-S1000 Int. Amp - Salk SongTowers - Oppo 103 - Marantz TT42 - Emo XDA-2 DAC
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post #36 of 67 Old 07-23-2018, 10:07 PM
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I trust that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that most AVRs are limited by their power supplies. The amps are identical among all channels.

If 7 channels were driven identically, slightly more power would be available than if all 9 were equally driven.

However, for home theater use, I doubt that all channels are equally driven most of the time. It's really a very artificial condition. If they were commonly equally driven, there'd be more incentive for high-end manufacturers to include power supplies (and cooling) so that all channels could be driven at high levels simultaneously.

I'm not sure which makers list all-channels-driven power specs. NAD does, at least for some of their AVRs. Emotiva does, for their XPA Gen3 amps.
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post #37 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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opinion: Denon AVR-X3400H or Onkyo TX-NR787?

Hi all, I need an AVR to drive my Klipsch RP-280f and the rest of my 7.1 speakers which I will get later. I'm deciding between the Denon AVR-X3400H or Onkyo TX-NR787. The Onkyo is about $150 more and is a 2018 model. The Denon is a 2017 model. I will be watching mainly TV shows and movies and I will not use a TV box at first. I will rely on a computer, media streamer, blu-ray player, chromecast, dlna, etc as my source. Which would you get?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
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post #38 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 08:22 AM
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Assuming both AVRs have the same desired connectivity and features, I'd go with the Denon because it also has:
- Audyssey MultEQ XT32; and
- multi-channel pre-outputs.
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post #39 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
Assuming both amps have the same desired connectivity and features, I'd go with the Denon because it also has:
- Audyssey MultEQ XT32; and
- multi-channel pre-outputs.

yes I forgot about the pre-outs that Onkyo doesn't have. so I can have the AVR power the fronts and center and get another amp and power the 4 surrounds?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
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post #40 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 09:08 AM
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Yup. You may not need to, but if you want to at least you'll have to option to do so.
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post #41 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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so with a pre-amp with the surrounds plugged into it, do you put the AVR in 3.1 mode or does it stay in 7.1 mode? I figure it stays in 7.1 mode. But don't the fronts and center speaker still get the same power?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #42 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 11:41 AM
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^^It stays in 7.1 mode when using preouts.

The new nr787 is actually a 9 channel receiver if that matters to you.

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post #43 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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yes I know. so my question is, if the AVR is in 7.1 mode but I only have the two fronts and the center speakers plugged into it, will those 3 speakers get more power than if all 7 speakers were plugged into it? from what I learned from this forum, they will but they won't get that much more power. will my overall power/volume be noticeably higher if I have a pre-amp plugged into the AVR and having the AVR driving the 3 front speakers and the pre-amp driving the 4 surrounds? is it worth spending the money to buy a pre-amp?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #44 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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2.1 vs 7.1 test

Hi all, I just ran a test on my AVR. Test1: avr is at 7.1, all speakers are muted (including the sub) except for the front left. I played a song for 1 minute and measured the average db level which was 92db. Test2: I put the avr in 2.1 mode, muted the sub and right speaker and measured the db left of the left speaker for 1 minute and the average db level was 93db. does that seem right?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #45 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 12:48 PM
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you would be buying an amp, not a preamp.

Depending on what type of amp you buy it might be better to use the amp for the front 3 speakers and let the AVR power the 4 surround speakers.

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post #46 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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but is there a noticeable increase in watts by having a system like that?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #47 of 67 Old 07-24-2018, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
Hi all, i have a dumb question. If you get a 9.2 avr and put it in 7.2 mode, does the unused power from the 2 channels not being used go towards the channels being used?
In general, yes.

No matter how many channels in a box, they are all fed from the same power supply.

There some 2-channels that are labeled as MONOBLOCK design, now those puppies got separate power supplies for each channel but I don't know how practical is to do this in a multi-channel AVR, nor do I know if they exist.
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post #48 of 67 Old 07-25-2018, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Audioholics say that the Onkyo 787 is THX certified which is good for large rooms. Why is it good for large rooms?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #49 of 67 Old 07-25-2018, 09:08 AM
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Amplifier Section Onkyo TX-NR787
Power Output

All Channels

100 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)

220 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 Channel Driven)
weird specs... , probably 50-60 w/ch @8 ohm running several channels at once.

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post #50 of 67 Old 07-25-2018, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
yes I forgot about the pre-outs that Onkyo doesn't have. so I can have the AVR power the fronts and center and get another amp and power the 4 surrounds?
It'd be more usual to use an external amp to power the LCR fronts, and let the AVR power the surrounds. The LCR speakers (particularly the center, for movies) typically use more power than the surrounds.

An amp that can deliver more power to the fronts than the AVR may be expensive, though. (Example: Monoprice Monolith 3X200W, $1100US.)

Yes, using an external amp will free up more power to those speakers driven by the AVR.
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post #51 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
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if the AVR is in 7.1 mode and only the LCR speakers are plugged in, how does it know the 4 surrounds aren't plugged in and to send more power to the LCR speakers?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #52 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
if the AVR is in 7.1 mode and only the LCR speakers are plugged in, how does it know the 4 surrounds aren't plugged in and to send more power to the LCR speakers?
You are connecting load (speaker) on the speaker terminals, which draws power when working. If no load is connected, no power is drawn.

As others have pointed out, amplifier power is determined by power supply rating, capacitors and output transistors. While unused terminals give higher headroom in power supply, for the working speakers, the output power will still be limited to the transistor capability.

In short, not connecting all 7 channels does provide slightly more power to the working channels. However, I believe such increase is purely academic and not necessarily going to increase sound quality substantially.

A good quality amplifier needs about 6 transistors per channel. 42 good quality transistors (for 7 channels) cost about $50 and the associated power supply and capacitance increase cost more. Chipamps cost even more to make. It would be very hard for manufacturers to pack all the features, spend so much on the amp capacity and still charge $600 to the end user. Naturally amp section take a hit.

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post #53 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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ok so speakers sort of pull the power out of the AVR rather than the AVR sending power to the speakers? didn't know that.

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #54 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
ok so speakers sort of pull the power out of the AVR rather than the AVR sending power to the speakers? didn't know that.
I'm not sure that's a useful way of looking at the AVR. Does a toaster plugged into a wall socket draw power from the wall socket, or does the wall socket send power to the toaster?

Also, I'm not sure that no power is used by the amplifiers that have no loads (speakers) connected. I presume that it's not much, else the manufacturers would provide means to disable unused channels. (That may be optimistic, though.)
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post #55 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
ok so speakers sort of pull the power out of the AVR rather than the AVR sending power to the speakers? didn't know that.
Speakers complete the circuit and add a load. Amplifier sends the power through.

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post #56 of 67 Old 07-26-2018, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
I'm not sure that's a useful way of looking at the AVR. Does a toaster plugged into a wall socket draw power from the wall socket, or does the wall socket send power to the toaster?

Also, I'm not sure that no power is used by the amplifiers that have no loads (speakers) connected. I presume that it's not much, else the manufacturers would provide means to disable unused channels. (That may be optimistic, though.)

For the Class AB amplifiers used in Denon/Marantz/Yamaha AVR's the power dissipated in an idle power amplifier channel, whether or not the channel is connected to a speaker, is in the neighborhood of 4 watts. The Class A part of the AB is less than .1% of that total. This power is mainly used in the process of biasing the power transistors.

The capability of turning off unused amplifier channels would be of some value. Less heat would be generated by the AVR, and a small amount of power would be saved for use by powered channels.
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post #57 of 67 Old 08-04-2018, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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seperate circuit for AVR

Hi all, I'm finishing my basement and I had the electrician have a separate power receptacle on its own circuit cause I heard its good for the AVR. But I didn't specify how many amps I wanted the circuit. He gave me 15 amps. this receptacle will have the AVR, computer, media streamer, cable box plugged into it. basically everything except the TV cause I'm wall mounting it and I have a receptacle high up on the wall for it. so my question is, is 15 amps enough for everything except the TV?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
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post #58 of 67 Old 08-04-2018, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
Hi all, I'm finishing my basement and I had the electrician have a separate power receptacle on its own circuit cause I heard its good for the AVR. But I didn't specify how many amps I wanted the circuit. He gave me 15 amps. this receptacle will have the AVR, computer, media streamer, cable box plugged into it. basically everything except the TV cause I'm wall mounting it and I have a receptacle high up on the wall for it. so my question is, is 15 amps enough for everything except the TV?
The Denon AVR-X3400H is rated for 600W power consumption. Computers vary a lot in power draw; maybe a few hundred Watts? I don't know about the "streamer", or the cable box. 15A at 110V is 1.65kW. I think you'd be fine.

I have a Denon AVR-X4300H (710W), an Emotiva XPA3 Gen 3 (unknown), an LG OLED55B7A (190W), Hsu VTF-1 Mk3 subwoofer (250W), plus an Oppo 203 player, a Comcast X1 cable box, and a CD player. That's 1.15kW, plus the XPA3 and the players. I think it's on a 20A service. Haven't had the breaker open yet.
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post #59 of 67 Old 08-05-2018, 12:40 AM
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In North America, the default circuit will be 15A. This is what most circuits are and the standard plug. You can get 20 amp circuits installed - most new houses will have every kitchen plug on it's own 20A circuit. This is an effort to keep nuisance trips down when people plug in a kettle and a toaster on the same plug. You can tell because one of the socket holes will look like a sideways T. You need to specify this to the electrician so the can run the required heavier wire.

(The other available currents are 30A and 50A, used for electric ranges and clothes dryers. And to charge some electric vehicles, and providing AC power to recreational vehicles. Nonetheless, they are often referred to as dryer or range plugs and sockets. They are also 230V, though both have a 15A 110V circuit on them as well to power the electronics or the embedded sockets)

So yes,it generally is adequate since that's what all the other plugs are.
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post #60 of 67 Old 08-05-2018, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok thanks. If it turns out to be not enough, can it be increased?

Family Room: Onkyo TX-NR 646 AVR, Polk Audio RtiA3 fronts, Polk Audio CSiA4 center, BIC America F12 sub, Polk Audio RC-65i rears
Basement: Denon AVR-X3400 AVR, Klipsch RP280f fronts, RP450c center, SVS PB-2000 sub, Polk Audio RC-85i rears & surrounds
Www.jvpix.com
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